Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[DarkShadow20]

In the absence of any hard evidence this is the best we can do. As I've said before, every time costumes get revealed and Geno isn't there, we're riding high. To echo @KCCHIEFS27, the closer we get to the end of the pass and Geno isn't around, the more golden we look.

But also the closer we get to the end of the pass, the more heartbreaking it is to get shot down, so... keep those expectations low.


wynn728 's echo fighter, but he's absolutely right.

Except Tomas is just an outright troll who's even laughed on Gamefaqs about "triggering" Geno fans in this topic.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Except Tomas is just an outright troll who's even laughed on Gamefaqs about "triggering" Geno fans in this topic.

But does have a valid point. Doing something last second for a disconfirmation is a thing and should be kept in mind.

It's not fun to think about, but reality isn't always. There's too many assumptions of "it makes sense" when we really don't know the mind behind the reveals of things.

But like I said, I vastly hope he's playable(I didn't expect him anything before post-pass. Has nothing to do even do with the current leakers, but previous information on when Spirits were chosen. Which apparent was near when DLC was chosen, closer to the end of the game's development time. We got a confirmation that Sakurai removed certain Spirits from the game for unknown reasons. Then we saw that PP and certain related spirits were removed to come with PP as is. That actually does explain a lot on how some spirits are done. Spirits are a pretty mediocre role, similar to Trophies, but they are an in-game role. So with Geno being kept as a spirit, that could mean he wasn't decided to be a FP character at that time. It has nothing to do with later ideas that came up when they were finishing up the FP as is). So basically I would consider FP's chosen during the same time they removed Spirits, any who would relate or be part of the Fighter's Pass character selection. Geno is still a spirit, so I think he was not going to be upgraded for the FP due to all this.

Incidentally Verge outright saying he's not Fighter 5 is a coincidence with my thoughts. That said, there's a lot we don't know about post-pass, including a single statement other than "it exists". There's no patterns, no statements that are defining. It might not even be a pass of sorts. The "unexpected picks" was in context to the first 6 characters, with nothing talked about yet for anything else. So my expectations for post-pass are "nothing to know right now, but might be silly to expect hyper obscure characters or non-game ones", so the usual common thoughts anyway. XD

 

[wynn728]

As long as you look at Mii costumes with the pure contempt that comes with knowing they could have been characters, you'll never be able to admit that there are reasons many of them look the way they do. There's nothing unique or special about Sans aside from the fact that he really shouldn't even be here.

Wha-wha-WHAT!?! You must be joking. The reason of why they look the way they do DOESN'T MATTER. That excuse doesn't make all the Mii Costumes look good. You can give all the reasoning and excuse out there but trash will always look like trash.
Look at all these Mii Costumes. You can immediately tell that they're Miis and they look terrible. They're like Funko Pops, just because you take the character design and rework it to fit a different artstyle doesn't change the fact that the rework is still bad.
https://nintendosoup.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/ssb-3dswiiu-mii-costumes-1.jpg
https://japanesenintendo.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/mii-fighter-costumes-4.jpg
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...czmAhVQCs0KHbkYBmoQMwh-KA0wDQ&iact=mrc&uact=8
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...zmAhVQCs0KHbkYBmoQMwiyASg0MDQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

 

[RuffyYoshi]

Yknow sometimes I wonder if Sakurai visits these forums just to get an idea of how to **** with the fanbase. But then I'd be assuming he has any free time at all outside of visiting the kirby restaurant, the poor bloke.

 

[Deleted member]

To me, Hero's costume set was it's own special thing and dedicated to DQ. And that there's really no Mii costume patterns to begin with. It's whatever they find workable in different situations.

I agree with all of your points except this one. There is the very obvious pattern that characters come with three to four costumes from their own franchise, and also two returning third party Mii costumes from Smash 4. It might not mean anything, but it is a pattern that exists. Hero is still the outlier here, and it's just strange.

Except Tomas is just an outright troll who's even laughed on Gamefaqs about "triggering" Geno fans in this topic.

That's true, but the last few posts he's made here have been cynical but true. His biggest crime anymore is just bringing up the same tired arguments. It's pointless to make an entire post to call him a troll.

 

[Deleted member]

Except Tomas is just an outright troll who's even laughed on Gamefaqs about "triggering" Geno fans in this topic.

Tom is fine for now. If he continues to make trouble, he’ll get banned again and take himself back to GameFAQS to continue to be a miserable troll. Lol

 

[ForsakenM]

To me, Hero's costume set was it's own special thing and dedicated to DQ. And that there's really no Mii costume patterns to begin with. It's whatever they find workable in different situations. So no real precedent was made. There's no straight pattern either. That's why I'm with Eric and Hinata on this one. There's nothing to really go off of. Of course, Geno could be playable and decided on close to when Hero's recording was done, enough to scrap the costume. Chocobo is in a different situation on its own.

It says nothing about later costumes. Geno simply was not disconfirmed, but it didn't really do much for his chances other than give more hope for post-pass for some people(depending people's opinions on spirits). Chocobo simply didn't make sense to have with Hero as much as Geno did. Neither were DQ-related, and Chocobo sticks out even more since he's a mascot of a different franchise. It doesn't mean they're cut either. It just means we know nothing.

I don't honestly think much has changed. But I do hope Geno gets in. I'm a bit more cynical on his chances, keep in mind. I don't think he's impossible post-pass, though. Regardless, I would hope, if he were a costume again, he comes with some awesome music(more than one piece). SMRPG music is a win alone for me. Also worth clarifying that I see Mii Costumes as nothing but love being given to a character who unfortunately couldn't make it to playable. They're an amazing thing and a nice prize for fans as is. At least, they're intended that way, to please them. Does it work? No. Some prefer nothing. That's fine too. Doesn't make them some insult or whatever. They're clearly intended to be for the fans, not to hurt them. None of the decisions are intended to be a knock against the fans to begin with anyway. It was always to please them the best Sakurai could with a limited amount of time to do stuff. It's not like he can please all fans, or for that matter, know who is a super fan favorite. I see Isaac's costume, for instance, as him acknowledging that the fanbase is growing, a huge improvement over Brawl when he was just an AT, and in 4, where he's at most... a trophy, I think? GS got a lot of love this game, moreso than any other one.

If you look at my theory, you may change your mind. It is just a theory, but it's based off facts and logic as well as being backed by my original theory being proven correct in September. There is just too much going on that supports a sudden in plans for DLC early in the year and there is literally no reason (even though some have tried to argue points like Hinata but failed to have brought up any that make sense. Seriously, holding onto Geno's costume until after revealing Sans's costume when they already revealed and released the character from Square Enix that Geno should have came with JUST to see if a popular and memey character as a costume would be received well and apply that logic to a very niche and generally unknown but VERY STRONGLY support character in the community and re-release that costume later? I barely followed along with what I just typed, that's how little sense that makes) to hold onto Geno's costume until later in the pass.

The lack of Geno's costume ONLY makes sense in a timeline where Sakurai updated the rights of Geno with Square to be more than what they had before because to make Geno playable versus just a Spirit, Icon or Costume they WOULD have to renegotiate. Then Sakurai either decided to remove the costume entirely or it made more sense to reveal it later with other SMRPG content so it was pulled from Hero's Mii Costume line-up but not replaced as there was not enough time for negotiations and Hero's stuff was already finished and set in stone.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Alright, let me break down one example:

Terry's Mii costumes: all fighting game characters. Terry's 2 Smash 4 costumes? Akira and Jacky, Virtua Fighter, a fighting game series. Only fighting game Smash 4 costume left at this point, Heihachi. Tekken, fighting game series. Power of Six Theory: every pass originally was meant to come with 6. Terry wound up with 5. Heihachi would have made 6.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdoredDiscreteBallpython-small.gif

 

[Deleted member]

Wha-wha-WHAT!?! You must be joking. The reason of why they look the way they do DOESN'T MATTER. That excuse doesn't make all the Mii Costumes look good. You can give all the reasoning and excuse out there but trash will always look like trash.
Look at all these Mii Costumes. You can immediately tell that they're Miis and they look terrible. They're like Funko Pops, just because you take the character design and rework it to fit a different artstyle doesn't change the fact that the rework is still bad.

Funko Pops sell like hotcakes, regardless of what you think about them. I don't necessarily like them either, but hell, even I have bought a handful of them because I think there's sort of an ironic charm to them, and I like the characters. They have the upside of not being a death sentence for the character in Smash, though. The "excuse" I'm giving doesn't make the Mii Costumes look good, you're right, but you're ignoring that I said it's by design that they look the way they do, and also why cartoony characters will have an easier time looking proper. It's like how Earthbound characters would be some of the most accurate looking Funko Pops ever made, if they were to be made.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I agree with all of your points except this one. There is the very obvious pattern that characters come with three to four costumes from their own franchise, and also two returning third party Mii costumes from Smash 4. It might not mean anything, but it is a pattern that exists. Hero is still the outlier here, and it's just strange.

No, that's not a pattern either. It's whatever is workable at the time. DQ was most workable with not relating to other franchises. Banjo had nothing to do with his own franchise, Microsoft, or Rareware for costumes. Many were always returning costumes to begin with. There's nothing particularly unique about any. The whole "six costume" thing is a huge stretch either way. Especially when you need to make up stuff about what counts as a sixth costume or not. It's a really bad and flawed theory. Was pointed out multiple times of how much it needs to justify poor points. Not every theory is good. Some just plain don't work when better analyzed.

If you look at my theory, you may change your mind. It is just a theory, but it's based off facts and logic as well as being backed by my original theory being proven correct in September. There is just too much going on that supports a sudden in plans for DLC early in the year and there is literally no reason (even though some have tried to argue points like Hinata but failed to have brought up any that make sense. Seriously, holding onto Geno's costume until after revealing Sans's costume when they already revealed and released the character from Square Enix that Geno should have came with JUST to see if a popular and memey character as a costume would be received well and apply that logic to a very niche and generally unknown but VERY STRONGLY support character in the community and re-release that costume later? I barely followed along with what I just typed, that's how little sense that makes) to hold onto Geno's costume until later in the pass.

The lack of Geno's costume ONLY makes sense in a timeline where Sakurai updated the rights of Geno with Square to be more than what they had before because to make Geno playable versus just a Spirit, Icon or Costume they WOULD have to renegotiate. Then Sakurai either decided to remove the costume entirely or it made more sense to reveal it later with other SMRPG content so it was pulled from Hero's Mii Costume line-up but not replaced as there was not enough time for negotiations and Hero's stuff was already finished and set in stone.

Sorry, I don't think your theory holds any more water. If it's being held back, it's because they didn't think bringing it with Hero was the right call(which was hard dedicated to DQ only). Figuring out when to do so after that is the question. Maybe they wanted to hold off to try something a bit different. Sans was a unique costume with music(but still just a costume). They maybe are intending to do the same, but they needed to re-negotiate rights with SE to begin with. Just cause they licensed to use the Spirit does not mean they got the costume back at the time. That's not how licensing works, after all. It's even possible they didn't get the costume back. There's too many variables.

There is no "should have come with". It was DQ-focused only. People are ignoring this despite it being the clear intention here. No, Geno's costume should come when Sakurai and/or Square-Enix(assuming it's coming back. See up above how licensing isn't that simple) feels is the most logical. I'd say Banjo would've been an actual better timing because it was more about "game mascots" instead of companies, another broken idea that people put too much stock into. The only one with a dedicated rule was Hero at best. The rest weren't following some patterns. You could maybe argue Terry tried to do a little focus on Fighting Game Costumes too, though. We don't know the logic behind it, but putting too much stock into one's own theory and some rule that doesn't exist doesn't really fit reality. Geno should not have come with Hero, as it clearly had a specific set of costumes of where he didn't belong. Is Geno a DQ character? No? Then he didn't belong in that set. Joker already was a broken pattern to begin with. We should've gotten Jacky back if it was a pattern of "company only". We got Team Rocket grunts for Banjo, something that doesn't fit any real kind of pattern either. That came out of nowhere(they wouldn't have much fit anywhere but Hero's or Joker's, which are the only two franchises that did have dedication at some point for controlling monsters). And so on.

To be fair, I didn't really look much at your other post, but I will look through it again. So this in my response to a skimmed version. I only ask when you want to point out your own post that you at least link it so I can immediately reference it.

 

[Deleted member]

Funko Pops sell like hotcakes, regardless of what you think about them. I don't necessarily like them either, but hell, even I have bought a handful of them because I think there's sort of an ironic charm to them, and I like the characters. They have the upside of not being a death sentence for the character in Smash, though. The "excuse" I'm giving doesn't make the Mii Costumes look good, you're right, but you're ignoring that I said it's by design that they look the way they do, and also why cartoony characters will have an easier time looking proper. It's like how Earthbound characters would be some of the most accurate looking Funko Pops ever made, if they were to be made.

Now that you mention it, the way I bought Mii costumes does resemble the way I buy Funkos.

I basically bought every DQ Mii costume alongside the Sans and Goemon ones because I really love Dragon Quest, Undertale and the character of Goemon.

And I just buy Funkos of my favourite franchises or characters (Fantastic Four, Joker from P5 or Godzilla).

That’s quite a deep comparison.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I haven't bought a costume yet cause I'm waiting for a direct bundle option. That, and low on money. I'm not going to spend ages downloading them once at a time. That's silly. Bundling them via waves would make a lot of sense anyway. It just saves download time since you can do "five at a time".

I'll get them all either way, cause I want full content.

 

[Deleted member]

No, that's not a pattern either. It's whatever is workable at the time. DQ was most workable with not relating to other franchises. Banjo had nothing to do with his own franchise for costumes. Many were always returning costumes to begin with. There's nothing particularly unique about any. The whole "six costume" thing is a huge stretch either way.

It's not a pattern that DLC fighters come with Mii costumes, the bulk of which are from their own franchise and then a lesser amount are returning from Smash 4? It's just what they have to work with?

"Whatever's workable" would be "A DLC fighter comes with some costumes from their franchise". That's all that's really "workable". I'm not even going as far as to say the company inclusions or the type of Mii costumes that come with the character are a pattern because they're not, but if you're seriously ignoring that there's a pattern to how many Miis are coming with a character, I know when I've met my match. I mean, I'm not even trying to defend the power of six theory because I quite frankly think that it's dog****, and I know "patterns" are the weakest Smash speculation possible, but Mii costumes are essentially the box theory of DLC. We know they're coming and we know approximately how many there should be and Hero is still the outlier. The only reason Hero makes sense is for Square to have specifically requested that the Mii costumes announced alongside Hero be all DQ, but even then, Nintendo could have announced a wave of Mii fighters before or after Hero.

 

[AdamBel731]

Looks like we're having some good ol' fashioned debates in here, eh?

...should I throw my hat in the ring? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[ForsakenM]

But does have a valid point. Doing something last second for a disconfirmation is a thing and should be kept in mind.

It's not fun to think about, but reality isn't always. There's too many assumptions of "it makes sense" when we really don't know the mind behind the reveals of things.

But like I said, I vastly hope he's playable(I didn't expect him anything before post-pass. Has nothing to do even do with the current leakers, but previous information on when Spirits were chosen. Which apparent was near when DLC was chosen, closer to the end of the game's development time. We got a confirmation that Sakurai removed certain Spirits from the game for unknown reasons. Then we saw that PP and certain related spirits were removed to come with PP as is. That actually does explain a lot on how some spirits are done. Spirits are a pretty mediocre role, similar to Trophies, but they are an in-game role. So with Geno being kept as a spirit, that could mean he wasn't decided to be a FP character at that time. It has nothing to do with later ideas that came up when they were finishing up the FP as is). So basically I would consider FP's chosen during the same time they removed Spirits, any who would relate or be part of the Fighter's Pass character selection. Geno is still a spirit, so I think he was not going to be upgraded for the FP due to all this.

Incidentally Verge outright saying he's not Fighter 5 is a coincidence with my thoughts. That said, there's a lot we don't know about post-pass, including a single statement other than "it exists". There's no patterns, no statements that are defining. It might not even be a pass of sorts. The "unexpected picks" was in context to the first 6 characters, with nothing talked about yet for anything else. So my expectations for post-pass are "nothing to know right now, but might be silly to expect hyper obscure characters or non-game ones", so the usual common thoughts anyway. XD

No one is arguing that Geno is happening for Fighter #5. There was a very small point in time where we argued that Spirits don't truly disconfirm a character from being DLC and we were extending that to the Fighter's Pass, but the further the pass went on the more we found that it was bringing characters who had no Spirits in the game and thus we stood our ground at the line that made sense: Being a Spirit, a literally PNG that barely does anything in only a couple of modes in the game and is essentially the replacement for trophies in this title, does not prevent them from being playable through DLC later. Also we've been over the Spirits stuff a ton and you've brought nothing new here. In fact, Sakurai was barely involved in Spirits at all: he basically only showed up now and again to do exactly as you said, but he barely ever picked any himself and had a whole team dedicated to that.

This is where we disagree because you are SO hardstuck on the DQ costumes somehow meaning it was 'always and forever only DQ stuff' when reality shows us that EACH Mii costume line-up came with two older costumes and that pattern has stayed true...save for Hero. Fighter #5 will 99.99~% bring two returning Mii costumes...so why didn't Hero? With YOUR logic, since it was just jerk-off DQ time, there should have been one or two more DQ costumes since Hero has brought the least costumes with him...but that didn't happen. Well, there were two Square Enix returning costumes that could have been brought with him, and even if they didn't include the Chocobo hat, Geno's costume is the easy one to place in there and there is LITERALLY no reason not to bring it back there unless something happened to change that.

Now, for SOME reason, you have the belief that Geno's costume could have been removed to be included later and bring a music track or two. Well, I have bad news for this theory, and I'll break it down for you.

1. Literally all the other Mii Costumes were either already negotiated for during DLC talks or they still had the rights to them since they were older Mii Costumes from Smash 4.
2. When you add in the fact that Geno's Spirit and Icon as well as Mallow's Spirit and Icon are in base game and that Piranha Plant comes with not one but two references to SMRPG exclusions enemies (Chewie and Smilax/Megasmilax) it becomes obvious that Geno's costume would have been negotiated for before the game even launched.
3. You may argue about music, but let me stop you right there: Smash 4 ALREADY had those rights negotiated for due to Beware the Forest Mushrooms being played for Geno's costume reveal in Smash 4. So, not only could the rights have still been in play for that long BUT Sakurai would have already negotiated for music to come with Geno's costume before the game launched. Also Yoko Shimomura has been working with Smash for years now, so it really would not be hard to get a remix or just the original track to come with the costume and be ready in July.
4. In light of all this, it makes absolutely no sense to hold back Geno's Mii Costume for anything else BUT being revealed with another Square Enix character later on. You can argue that he could come with Sora or Sephiroth but we've already been over why that makes no sense and the strength of the CacoMallow leak still not being fully debunked gives more power and pull on Geno's side of the court than that of another Square rep.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Imagine wishing for a scenario that would make no one happy.

Trolls basically.

Geno’s trailer starts with samus and link asleep in a bed?

Wait nvm that came out wrong

I actually ship Link x Samus together. They would make a fine badass couple.

 

[Fatmanonice]

In order to say that the Power of Six Theory has absolutely nothing going for it, you have to ignore or refute the following:

-Base game had no third party Mii costumes.

-The Fighter's Pass was originally planned to be the only DLC.

-Joker is the only one with 6 Mii costumes and, as highlighted, Hero and Terry have very obvious "holes" that would have given them 6.

-Every pack has had two Smash 4 Mii costumes from the same company except Hero.

-Every pack except Banjo appear to follow a strict theme.

-4 of the "remaining" Mii costumes follow the theme of swords, three heavy armor and helmets. Even if you were to "add" Geno, Chocobo, Heihachi, X, and EXE, these themes are still the most prevalent and the only change is that there's now 4 Capcom costumes instead of 2, both coincidentally pairs from the same series (Megaman and Monster Hunter respectively)

-Even in Smash 4, Square Enix content has only come with Square Enix content, suggesting that Geno and Chocobo would, wait for it, come with Square Enix content.

That's 7 major bullet points you would have to say are outright wrong or completely ignore to say Power of Six is totally baseless.

 

[AugustusB]

Allow me to flip the script on this Mii Costume talk.

DQ having only DQ costumes makes sense...does it? We have to remember that this Fighter's Pass was GOING TO BE IT for DLC. The first fighter being Joker, we had an understanding what to expect with Mii Costumes. 2-4 new costumes with some old 3rd party ones (In this case, Tails and Knuckles). Immediately, some would think "Oh great, those old costumes are being packaged and used again!" While others "Oh no...Geno Costume is returning."

Then we get Hero and Banjo announced. Some of us are braced to receive the costume again, because again, This is the ONLY DLC we are getting.
We get Hero's showcase and then the Mii Costumes...No Geno...odd? Yes. Expected? No. I would say the majority of people were expecting that costume to return with Hero. Now, we are in a weird place. We don't even get a costume!? Weak!

September Direct happens. Banjo to be released that day and Terry gets revealed...THEN! More Fighter's are being made past the pass. Suddenly, the door opens up again for speculation.

"Alright I see where you are going, but that did not answer anything about DQ only content." Would it have been odd if Joker got only Persona Mii Costumes? Would people had batted an eye if it was just that? "Wait, where is Tails and Knuckles costumes!?" No. People would have said "It's Persona, of course it would just be Persona!" The same could be said with Terry "Its King of Fighters, of course it would have been JUST KoF!". It is kind of a weak argument at this point...at least it would have been if not for Banjo & Kazooie's Grab Bag of Costumes.

Anyhoo...Geno is a cool dude and I would like to see them in Smash or any Mario style game for that matter.

 

[RingJ5]

In order to say that the Power of Six Theory has absolutely nothing going for it, you have to ignore or refute the following:

-Base game had no third party Mii costumes.

-The Fighter's Pass was originally planned to be the only DLC.

-Joker is the only one with 6 Mii costumes and, as highlighted, Hero and Terry have very obvious "holes" that would have given them 6.

-Every pack has had two Smash 4 Mii costumes from the same company except Hero.

-Every pack except Banjo appear to follow a strict theme.

-4 of the "remaining" Mii costumes follow the theme of swords, three heavy armor and helmets. Even if you were to "add" Geno, Chocobo, Heihachi, X, and EXE, these themes are still the most prevalent and the only change is that there's now 4 Capcom costumes instead of 2, both coincidentally pairs from the same series (Megaman and Monster Hunter respectively)

-Even in Smash 4, Square Enix content has only come with Square Enix content, suggesting that Geno and Chocobo would, wait for it, come with Square Enix content.

That's 7 major bullet points you would have to say are outright wrong or completely ignore to say Power of Six is totally baseless.

Have you considered the alternate explanation that six doesn’t matter, but two does? Instead of there always being six no matter what, the more interesting number I’ve noticed is that so far there have always been two returning costumes per wave besides Hero’s, no more and no less.

The whole “this costume should obviously have come with this character” thing is largely speculative, yet it leaps to the “six costumes per wave” conclusion when the hard data so far has three out of four examples coming with exactly two costumes each, which still makes the one wave that broke the pattern look incredibly weird.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

So Fatmanonice have you heard anything about Spyro? I know Crash will get in first, but still have you heard anything about the purple dragon from any contects?

 

[Deleted member]

In order to say that the Power of Six Theory has absolutely nothing going for it, you have to ignore or refute the following:

-Base game had no third party Mii costumes.

True, but somewhat irrelevant? I doubt anyone expected them to return in base game when the parent company stood to make money off of them again.

-The Fighter's Pass was originally planned to be the only DLC.

Debatable. Outside of insider talk is there any proof of this? Catch me up on that if I'm wrong, of course. It's the sort of thing that never really made sense to me because that's just leaving money on the table.

-Joker is the only one with 6 Mii costumes and, as highlighted, Hero and Terry have very obvious "holes" that would have given them 6.

If Namco had already had a DLC character, and Heihachi hadn't returned, then Heihachi "missing" from Terry's Miis would be an obvious hole. Currently, there's nothing obvious about it. Namco could be Fighter 5, because there's no facts backing up Verge's claim that they're out of the running.

-Every pack has had two Smash 4 Mii costumes from the same company except Hero.

That's true!

-Every pack except Banjo appear to follow a strict theme.

That's debatable but mostly true thanks to the magic word "appear".

-4 of the "remaining" Mii costumes follow the theme of swords, three heavy armor and helmets. Even if you were to "add" Geno, Chocobo, Heihachi, X, and EXE, these themes are still the most prevalent and the only change is that there's now 4 Capcom costumes instead of 2, both coincidentally pairs from the same series (Megaman and Monster Hunter respectively)

This relies heavily on there actually being a theme pattern. Also, I kind of doubt Dark Souls would consider the Hunter Armor heavy. It's mostly leather/dragonhide.

-Even in Smash 4, Square Enix content has only come with Square Enix content, suggesting that Geno and Chocobo would, wait for it, come with Square Enix content.

That's 7 major bullet points you would have to say are outright wrong or completely ignore to say Power of Six is totally baseless.

True.

Those are just my takes on those points... but I never thought it was baseless, just kind of a grasp. I'm more in line with Ring:

Have you considered the alternate explanation that six doesn’t matter, but two does? Instead of there always being six no matter what, the more interesting number I’ve noticed is that so far there have always been two returning costumes per wave besides Hero’s, no more and no less.

The whole “this costume should obviously have come with this character” thing is largely speculative, yet it leaps to the “six costumes per wave” conclusion when the hard data so far has three out of four examples coming with exactly two costumes each, which still makes the one wave that broke the pattern look incredibly weird.

The two returning costumes is much more important than the possible 6 costumes with each character. That's the only obvious hole, and if we want to invoke Occam's Razor, is much simpler than trying to force 6 costumes to exist per DLC character when only one DLC character has had 6, and the very same DLC character is theorized to have originally been intended to be Challenger Pack 2.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Have you considered the alternate explanation that six doesn’t matter, but two does? Instead of there always being six no matter what, the more interesting number I’ve noticed is that so far there have always been two returning costumes per wave besides Hero’s, no more and no less.

The whole “this costume should obviously have come with this character” thing is largely speculative, yet it leaps to the “six costumes per wave” conclusion when the hard data so far has three out of four examples coming with exactly two costumes each, which still makes the one wave that broke the pattern look incredibly weird.

But that's what I've been saying. I do think the two Smash 4 costume pattern is significant because it demonstrates the shift of the Fighter's Pass from being one and done to more DLC being decided. Instead of cramming all the Smash 4 costumes in the Fighter's Pass, additional DLC has opened up the option of future opportunities to add the Smash 4 costumes later. Again, here's where we're currently at:

-Lloyd and Gil (Namco sword users)
-Chocobo and Geno (Square)
-X and EXE (Megaman and Capcom)
-Rathalos and Monster Hunter (Monster Hunter and Capcom)
-Heihachi (yet another Namco)

Like I've been suggesting for ages, this suggests that three of the "Season 2" characters will be Namco, Square, and Capcom because those would be the most suitable for these pairings on a basic level aside from genres like in the case of Jacky, Akira, and Heihachi probably originally intended to be together.

 

[AugustusB]

Have you considered the alternate explanation that six doesn’t matter, but two does? Instead of there always being six no matter what, the more interesting number I’ve noticed is that so far there have always been two returning costumes per wave besides Hero’s, no more and no less.

The whole “this costume should obviously have come with this character” thing is largely speculative, yet it leaps to the “six costumes per wave” conclusion when the hard data so far has three out of four examples coming with exactly two costumes each, which still makes the one wave that broke the pattern look incredibly weird.

You heard of the "The Power of 6" Theory? Well buckle up for "The Power of 2" Theory!!!

Honestly, this has been the most interesting thing to note.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's not a pattern that DLC fighters come with Mii costumes, the bulk of which are from their own franchise and then a lesser amount are returning from Smash 4? It's just what they have to work with?

No. I wouldn't call that a pattern. I'd call that "logic cause it was easiest to license out or work with the company alone." When a costume comes based around a company, that just means the company liked the idea. It's not some kind of silly pattern either. It's just negotiations and talks working out. Also, I did edit my post to better clarify what I meant. I more meant for Banjo being he came with no Microsoft or Rareware costumes as well. Also, why wouldn't Jacky be with Joker, same with Akira? They're Sega characters, right? That's when I figured the pattern was nonexistent to begin with. For all we know, the costumes had to be renegotiated again, so that's why those two weren't with Joker. Again, too many variables to take patterns too seriously. Now, if every single costume set had a specific amount of costumes, I'd say there'd be more patterns. But seeing as how DQ went a different route from Joker's, and then Banjo and Terry were far different on their own... I'd say there's no real pattern to begin with.

"Whatever's workable" would be "A DLC fighter comes with some costumes from their franchise". That's all that's really "workable". I'm not even going as far as to say the company inclusions or the type of Mii costumes that come with the character are a pattern because they're not, but if you're seriously ignoring that there's a pattern to how many Miis are coming with a character, I know when I've met my match. I mean, I'm not even trying to defend the power of six theory because I quite frankly think that it's dog****, and I know "patterns" are the weakest Smash speculation possible, but Mii costumes are essentially the box theory of DLC. We know they're coming and we know approximately how many there should be and Hero is still the outlier. The only reason Hero makes sense is for Square to have specifically requested that the Mii costumes announced alongside Hero be all DQ, but even then, Nintendo could have announced a wave of Mii fighters before or after Hero.

Actually, it could be Sakurai who wanted it DQ focused too. He's a huge fan. SE may have little to nothing to do with it beyond saying "okay". That's the thing. We know too little as well. But yeah, power of six is a bleh theory that is broken already. Even Music Theory took longer to be broken, but it was made at a time when a lot wasn't out yet. I think the power of six was brought up after a ton of costumes were out, after it was "impossible" to make sense?

I wouldn't even say "a DLC fighter comes with some costumes from their franchise" is workable either. Cause let's be real. Microsoft and Rareware didn't have trouble working with Sakurai to any major degree. That's what killed it for me for any real pattern. It's clear that it's not that simple. Not when there were obvious choices even without Rareware. Steve? Master Chief? Two mega gaming icons? What about B&K costumes? Nothing? No, every character was from an unrelated franchise too.

Box Theory had a lot more actual information going for it to begin with. We knew what two characters were coming from Verge as is, and specifically one was an Echo and one was not. That's the reason it worked out as well as it did, enough information to create it. The only questionable thing was if the back of the box could have more(it didn't in the end). This is not comparable. We lack data. The fact no 3rd party costumes were base already implies they had to be negotiated separately.

Spoiler: Long ass post

No one is arguing that Geno is happening for Fighter #5. There was a very small point in time where we argued that Spirits don't truly disconfirm a character from being DLC and we were extending that to the Fighter's Pass, but the further the pass went on the more we found that it was bringing characters who had no Spirits in the game and thus we stood our ground at the line that made sense: Being a Spirit, a literally PNG that barely does anything in only a couple of modes in the game and is essentially the replacement for trophies in this title, does not prevent them from being playable through DLC later. Also we've been over the Spirits stuff a ton and you've brought nothing new here. In fact, Sakurai was barely involved in Spirits at all: he basically only showed up now and again to do exactly as you said, but he barely ever picked any himself and had a whole team dedicated to that.

And he went through the whole list himself to remove any he thought shouldn't be in there. That's pretty heavily involved in a different way. Any removed would either be because they don't fit with DLC plans, cannot negotiate for, CERO-related stuff, or ones he didn't like.

I found out some time ago the DLC was apparently started work on close to when Spirits were decided upon. A rumor, but that's from other leaker stuff. It fits too damn well in how the Spirits have been handled, so I find it rather plausible.

The PNG thing is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the Fighter's Pass anyway. That argument assumes that Sakurai didn't already go through the Spirits while figuring out DLC factors. That's why many were and weren't removed. That's what I'm sticking with, that pictures aren't at all an important factor. It's clear that upgrading a spirit is too easy because they can use a different picture. They don't need a different name either anyway. That's why I don't think Spirits disconfirm for all time. But I do think they aren't coming with the FP either way. If I'm wrong, cool. I won't be mad if we were to get someone like Waluigi, etc.

This is where we disagree because you are SO hardstuck on the DQ costumes somehow meaning it was 'always and forever only DQ stuff' when reality shows us that EACH Mii costume line-up came with two older costumes and that pattern has stayed true...save for Hero. Fighter #5 will 99.99~% bring two returning Mii costumes...so why didn't Hero? With YOUR logic, since it was just jerk-off DQ time, there should have been one or two more DQ costumes since Hero has brought the least costumes with him...but that didn't happen. Well, there were two Square Enix returning costumes that could have been brought with him, and even if they didn't include the Chocobo hat, Geno's costume is the easy one to place in there and there is LITERALLY no reason not to bring it back there unless something happened to change that.

No, I think they were completely DQ only and were always that way with no exceptions. There is no damn way Chocobo would fit in there. He makes no sense when he's a FF character. In fact, Geno and Chocobo are important mascots of their franchise. They'd fit way better under Banjo if they were planned that early. It's actually possible they never were coming back due to negotiations not working.

Now, for SOME reason, you have the belief that Geno's costume could have been removed to be included later and bring a music track or two. Well, I have bad news for this theory, and I'll break it down for you.

1. Literally all the other Mii Costumes were either already negotiated for during DLC talks or they still had the rights to them since they were older Mii Costumes from Smash 4.
2. When you add in the fact that Geno's Spirit and Icon as well as Mallow's Spirit and Icon are in base game and that Piranha Plant comes with not one but two references to SMRPG exclusions enemies (Chewie and Smilax/Megasmilax) it becomes obvious that Geno's costume would have been negotiated for before the game even launched.
3. You may argue about music, but let me stop you right there: Smash 4 ALREADY had those rights negotiated for due to Beware the Forest Mushrooms being played for Geno's costume reveal in Smash 4. So, not only could the rights have still been in play for that long BUT Sakurai would have already negotiated for music to come with Geno's costume before the game launched. Also Yoko Shimomura has been working with Smash for years now, so it really would not be hard to get a remix or just the original track to come with the costume and be ready in July.
4. In light of all this, it makes absolutely no sense to hold back Geno's Mii Costume for anything else BUT being revealed with another Square Enix character later on. You can argue that he could come with Sora or Sephiroth but we've already been over why that makes no sense and the strength of the CacoMallow leak still not being fully debunked gives more power and pull on Geno's side of the court than that of another Square rep.

1. Not that simple. Being an old costume means nothing. The only thing negotiated for with Geno was at least the Spirit. It's possible there was never an agreement beyond that.
2. That doesn't make it obvious either. That actually means they didn't agree with the costume but with the rest could happen too. There's more than one conclusion.
3. And that has nothing to do with Ultimate anyway, a different game. Sakurai cannot use any content from Smash 4 in Ultimate unless it was negotiated for both games. It's possible they actually negotiated for all the stuff for early game Ultimate, and Geno's costume was solely for one game. Unlikely, on the costume front, though, I admit.
4. Or maybe the costume was not going to be in Ultimate. That's possible too. We don't know the process behind it. CacoMallow leak is tangible and it always isn't confirmed real either, so it doesn't add much. I believe it's real, but that could also mean Geno is coming with Doomguy anyway, because that's simply when Sakurai and Square-Enix wanted to release it. The leak about Smithy is a completely different one(and wasn't that actually treated as fake anyway?). It's possible we could be getting Geno, Doomguy, Cacodemon, and Mallow in a different costume set together. It's not a popular opinion either. Before Banjo came along, I thought Costumes would hold some kind of tangible pattern, but then I realized we're trying to look too deeply into what it should be and not just realize that there is hardly one to begin with. Plans change overall.

Remember, we don't know what they're thinking about for reveals. They took forever to reveal Isaac and Shadow's AT, for no reason whatsoever we would know of. Shadow could be possibly cause they wanted to show off Knuckles first. They didn't even directly do more than cameo Ashley's AT either. She was just shown off during a reel of a few random ones. There is no clear pattern for reveals. There is no 4D Chess either. It's just whatever they think works at the time. And yes, Geno being held off a bit to renegotiate to add more music(like the ones in the 4 trailer) sounds actually pretty plausible at this point. Having to redo the licensing is a hard requirement to do something like this, which would force it to be pushed back. It's a lot more plausible than the completely bad power of six theory, though. Though to be frank, I don't know what they are thinking. I just don't see any reason to believe Hero was planned any differently to begin with. It became obvious that it was a DQ mini-direct far more than simply just Hero's information. It was constantly dedicated to it. These things are heavily planned out. And I still don't see how two non-DQ characters who could fit with anyone else since they're popular mascot Mii costumes must come with Hero's set, when that's just a personal opinion, not really something that was a clear factor. I wasn't even surprised after I watched the point behind the direct. Joker is the first one to not even be a very dedicated direct by a tiny thing. Hero, Banjo, and Terry had some pretty major directs dedicated to them. And every single one of them had a unique Mii costume set that didn't hold any real kind of straight pattern overall. If there was one, it was specific to each character at best anyway. Joker was pure Sega, Hero was pure Dragon Quest, Banjo had no actual pattern to it to begin with, and Terry focused on fighting game characters. That's how detached they are. Besides, Hero isn't the only thing against the bad power of six theory. I forgot the details as Eric pointed it out, though. Something about costumes being counted that should not be among the "six".

We are that lacking in information. Really really are. I wouldn't be surprised if Geno's base game stuff is all we're getting. I hope to hell I'm wrong, of course, but I do recognize the possibility because that's what the licensing could be. But that's the same reason I think he has a chance for post-pass, because he would be licensed for use again as a fully playable character. Keep in mind I do think his costume not coming with Banjo(the only time I think it was really fitting at this point, if not base game which is clear 3rd party mii costumes were meant for DLC only... which actually would mean they licensed them separately from base game??) does help his chances too. If he's post-pass, it would be decided well after regular DLC. As we did find out they chose to do more DLC after regular DLC was negotiated for. I forget when it was said. Something about it being a big success and they feel more DLC is a good idea. Now this is also why I think Geno might've been renegotiated for costume-wise. They actually had an idea for something like Banjo's timing, but Sans' costume was lucky to get music. I will admit this is unlikely either way and I am not holding onto it. But keep in mind with this said, Sakurai has learned he can do more and if he can't get Geno fully playable, he can attempt to get more out of SE, who has been really cooperative where possible this time around. It could be a case of "biting off more than they can chew." too. If Sakurai wants more out of the Geno costume, he'd have to renegotiate. I don't remember when it was confirmed Sans' costume even got negotiated for. That was possibly before the DQ-focused direct too. We lack details.

I won't go more into it, but I don't think it's anywhere as ridiculously simple as "he was intended to be with DQ" either. It's damn clear why it's those 4 costumes only. That's all Sakurai could get for it and he really wanted it to be DQ-related. He has a major passion for that series. Nothing really suggests SE wanted it either, so I wouldn't even put them up as the reason behind it. It's quite possible they all agreed to the idea due to how much they wanted to help the franchise be promoted.

...Also, went for a spoiler cause yeah. I'm not one to hold onto patterns anyway. Costumes are clearly unexpected in how they're doing them to begin with. Ignoring the power of six theory(which is flawed and already proven to really not fit well at all), we don't know what the hell is going on. Likewise, "it makes sense" is a lot more subjective than people think it is. The most logical other 3rd party echo was Shadow, by far. But nowhere to be found but an AT. There's probably a lot more behind the scenes than we realize.

 

[Deleted member]

But that's what I've been saying. I do think the two Smash 4 costume pattern is significant because it demonstrates the shift of the Fighter's Pass from being one and done to more DLC being decided. Instead of cramming all the Smash 4 costumes in the Fighter's Pass, additional DLC has opened up the option of future opportunities to add the Smash 4 costumes later. Again, here's where we're currently at:

-Lloyd and Gil (Namco sword users)
-Chocobo and Geno (Square)
-X and EXE (Megaman and Capcom)
-Rathalos and Monster Hunter (Monster Hunter and Capcom)
-Heihachi (yet another Namco)

Like I've been suggesting for ages, this suggests that three of the "Season 2" characters will be Namco, Square, and Capcom because those would be the most suitable for these pairings on a basic level aside from genres like in the case of Jacky, Akira, and Heihachi probably originally intended to be together.

Capcom, Sega, and Konami have basically proven that they don't care who their costumes come with, so I feel like it's a bit of a leap to say that we're set up for characters from them just because their costumes are missing.

I mean, let's just assume that this wave of DLC wasn't intended to be the end, and DLC wave 2 was planned quite a ways in advance, furthermore, planned to be 5 more characters. We have 5 sets of returning costumes right here - if any of these return with the next challenger pack, then the next wave of DLC has 4 characters that can come with 2 returning costumes, and one character who can carry the Hero torch and come with none, which is just as viable a pattern as any so far listed.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Alright, let me break this down even further:

"Power of 6" suggests how the Fighter's Pass was originally intended when it was one and done. (Past)

"Power of 2" suggests how DLC is now. (Present)

"Power of 6" shifted to "Power of 2" when it was decided to make more DLC. Are we all on the same page now? It's a T-Rex to chickens sort of thing. One became the other but it doesn't eliminate that the original existed.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I know this isn't Geno related, but have you guys seen Gaming Historian's Super Mario Bros. 3 documentary?

It's really interesting. I didn't know before watching the video that Super Mario Bros. 3 was delayed in the US and PAL regions for almost two years because of there being a chip shortage in 88 and 89 thus: Nintendo being wise not to produce any copies of the game in the west until they had enough chips to meet the overwhelming demand for the game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

EricTheGamerman Since you have been working on debating the power of six theory, could you re-list all the current costumes that were with each set? I can't remember how you pointed out the flaw of it.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, let me break this down even further:

"Power of 6" suggests how the Fighter's Pass was originally intended when it was one and done. (Past)

"Power of 2" suggests how DLC is now. (Present)

"Power of 6" shifted to "Power of 2" when it was decided to make more DLC. Are we all on the same page now? It's a T-Rex to chickens sort of thing. One became the other but it doesn't eliminate that the original existed.

But there's no fossil record that this T-Rex ever existed, there's just this one over-zealous challenger pack that included three games worth of Persona references... and still came with two returning fighters. Joker, as the only character to have 6 costumes, is our "control group" in this science experiment, right? A living fossil in our somewhat contrived T-Rex example. I just feel like if we want to claim Occam's Razor on power of six we're still too complicated for the simpler assumption to not be "every pack was supposed to have 2 returning costumes but Hero broke it."

 

[Fatmanonice]

EricTheGamerman Since you have been working on debating the power of six theory, could you re-list all the current costumes that were with each set? I can't remember how you pointed out the flaw of it.

His main argument was that because Banjo was such a grab bag, it can't be possible. My argument is that it's definitely possible because:

-There's absolutely no Microsoft costumes so the seemingly random nature is self explanatory.

-In it's present form, already has a Smash 4 costume pairing in the form of Zero and Protoman (Power of Two).

-In it's hypothetical past form (Power of Six), has four gunners (Sans, Protoman, X, and EXE) and two swordsmen (Goemon and Zero), consistency on two major fronts.

-In its present form is the only pass with a first party DLC costume (Rocket Grunt).

 

[pinshadow]

I know this isn't Geno related, but have you guys seen Gaming Historian's Super Mario Bros. 3 documentary?

It's really interesting. I didn't know before watching the video that Super Mario Bros. 3 was delayed in the US and PAL regions for almost two years because of there being a chip shortage in 88 and 89 thus: Nintendo being wise not to produce any copies of the game in the west until they had enough chips to meet the overrealming demand for the game.

The whole chip shortage thing is actually one of the major reasons SEGA was able to get in a major dent to Nintendo's market dominance at the time. Because of the shortage Nintendo kept a majority of the chips to themselves and had to ration out chips to other developers, who disliked the chip in the first place since Nintendo already charged alot for them. Sega steps in and alot of third parties flock to them specifically for that reason.

 

[AugustusB]

You know what I want to happen...Fighter 5 is not a fighter at all. It is just all the other Mii Costumes that have yet to return. Just to really mess with us.

"There! All the costumes you love. You thought I had a pattern for all this? Hahaha FOOLS! I am unpredictable! Muwhahahahahaha" (Then Sakurai soars to the heavens)

Seriously...this is a silly thing to discuss gang. Here is a Geno question. Lets say a Remake gets announced but the catch is Yoko is not the composer for it. Who would be a good substitute for the Music? I think the people behind Xenoblade would be awesome.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But there's no fossil record that this T-Rex ever existed, there's just this one over-zealous challenger pack that included three games worth of Persona references... and still came with two returning fighters. Joker, as the only character to have 6 costumes, is our "control group" in this science experiment, right? A living fossil in our somewhat contrived T-Rex example. I just feel like if we want to claim Occam's Razor on power of six we're still too complicated for the simpler assumption to not be "every pack was supposed to have 2 returning costumes but Hero broke it."

I'll be honest when I say the power of 2 sounds definitely more realistic. Assuming Geno and Chocobo's costumes were coming back at all, it's a reasonable time to place them with Hero due to SE stuff. Things could've changed. Not saying I think they were going to be there(I believe Hero was going to be pure DQ myself, but it doesn't mean I'm totally right or any crap like that). It's not necessarily the best spot either, as I think Banjo would've been a great time too.

It's why I think the word "should" needs to be discarded. Nobody knows any real plans of Mii costumes. We don't really know enough of the behind the scenes. Remember when Banjo "should" have come with something Microsoft-related? Or Rareware(well, technically it's both cause MS owns RW), but you get the idea. Hell, who didn't think Jack Frost would show up related to Joker? Etc. What we think should happen is not really that realistic.

His main argument was that because Banjo was such a grab bag, it can't be possible. My argument is that it's definitely possible because:

-There's absolutely no Microsoft costumes so the seemingly random nature is self explanatory.

-In it's present form, already has a Smash 4 costume pairing in the form of Zero and Protoman (Power of Two).

-In it's hypothetical past form (Power of Six), has four gunners (Sans, Protoman, X, and EXE) and two swordsmen (Goemon and Zero), consistency on two major fronts.

-In its present form is the only pass with a first party DLC costume (Rocket Grunt).

No, none of that is what I'm talking about whatsoever. He pointed out how technically not everything with "six costumes" outside of Hero that I remember.

I don't think the costume sets are remotely random either. But I don't think your theory holds much from the start. Not just cause of Hero, but because six is an arbitrary number to begin with.

 

[pinshadow]

His main argument was that because Banjo was such a grab bag, it can't be possible. My argument is that it's definitely possible because:

-There's absolutely no Microsoft costumes so the seemingly random nature is self explanatory.

-In it's present form, already has a Smash 4 costume pairing in the form of Zero and Protoman (Power of Two).

-In it's hypothetical past form (Power of Six), has four gunners (Sans, Protoman, X, and EXE) and two swordsmen (Goemon and Zero), consistency on two major fronts.

-In its present form is the only pass with a first party DLC costume (Rocket Grunt).

I mean, the whole Rocket Grunt situation could just be a Pokemon Company thing, seeing at as a replacement for something is pretty weird since they didn't bother replacing Heihachi or whoever was supposed to come with Hero.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

You know what I want to happen...Fighter 5 is not a fighter at all. It is just all the other Mii Costumes that have yet to return. Just to really mess with us.

"There! All the costumes you love. You thought I had a pattern for all this? Hahaha FOOLS! I am unpredictable! Muwhahahahahaha" (Then Sakurai soars to the heavens)

Seriously...this is a silly thing to discuss gang. Here is a Geno question. Lets say a Remake gets announced but the catch is Yoko is not the composer for it. Who would be a good substitute for the Music? I think the people behind Xenoblade would be awesome.

Honestly, it would be better if FP5 is just Terry again and Sakurai has another presentation about SNK but it's two hours long lol!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, it would be better if FP5 is just Terry again and Sakurai has another presentation about SNK but it's two hours long lol!

...So basically we should get Violent Ken as an Echo of Terry?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

...So basically we should get Violent Ken as an Echo of Terry?

Absolutely.

 

[Franco Geno]

...So basically we should get Violent Ken as an Echo of Terry?

Violent Ken or Evil Ryu would have been nice alternate costumes tbh

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Violent Ken or Evil Ryu would have been nice alternate costumes tbh

I mean, if it's cheap echoes with tangible differences...

Watch them still be more unique than Daisy, but less than Chrom. Basically what Lucina/Dark Pit/Richter are, since they have gameplay differences besides hit/hurtboxes.

Joking aside, who could make an echo for Geno?

 

[EarlTamm]

Joking aside, who could make an echo for Geno?

I don't think there is someone who could echo Geno, in or outside the Mario universe. We could call out characters in SMRPG that could echo other characters, but Geno himself seems to lack options in that regard.