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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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EricTheGamerman

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Ninja Gaiden had 3 NES games. That's about it's entire "history". It didn't really create a genre or define anything. It was just stupid ****ing hard, but then again most NES games were. Considering it's primarily known for it's two Xbox action titles, I'd say it absolutely a shame that it got in before the single most important action game figure in gaming.

Remember: older =/= more historically important
Uhhh.... I don't see how Dante is the single most important action figure in gaming. It has as many games as Ninja Gaiden does for reference, 6 (Ninja Gaiden had 3 NES title and 3 modern titles, though lots of those had expanded re-releases and there have been a couple of spin-offs, where Devil May Cry has 6 titles in the modern era with only just an overly expensive port of the first game appearing on a Nintendo system). Ninja Gaiden played a pivotal role in the return of 3D action games I'd argue as much as Devil May Cry did in proving that the genre could still work in the 2000s.

It's also worth noting, Kratos should arguably be the more important action game figure as God of War had sold nearly 19 million copies to Devil May Cry's 11 million a few years ago, and that difference has expanded with the most recent releases (God of War 2018 outsold Devil May Cry 5 by a few million units). He became one of Sony's mascots for crying out loud and is basically the only PS2 era icon to successfully transition to PS3 and subsequently the PS4.

And I don't even know if that's really a fair argument either seeing as there are lots of 3D action games with lots of importance overall. I don't think Devil May Cry, nor really any game, is the undisputed "winner of the genre" or whatever you're trying to present. Dante and Devil May Cry are important sure, but there's a lot more serious competition for that "spot" so to speak.
 

SpiritOfRuin

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I've been over a more extensive analysis of the Reggie quote from The Game Awards in the past, so I won't do it again. But it's always felt like people were trying desperately to wiggle their way out of "characters like Joker... new to Smash" in Smash by using the "Oh, he was just referring to them all being newcomers since Ultimate brought back all the veterans." Every part of that conversation was in the context of Joker and unexpected inclusions, so it has always colored that entire conversation in a different light. And with the end of the Fighter's Pass increasingly staring us down, it's more than likely the interpretation fans took to on forums was actually the misinterpretation and Reggie told us exactly what to expect from the beginning.

Also, to people disappointed by Ryu Hayabusa, play the original Ninja Gaiden on the NES online service. It's absolutely a classic that belongs alongside Castlevania and Mega Man games as a 2D action platformer that defined the NES. It's a difficult as hell beast, but it's also still thrilling to this day to play and get those sections "right." When you're at the top of your game playing it, everything feels really fluid and enjoyable. Ryu shows off a lot of really cool abilities just in the original much like Simon did in the original Castlevania that got interpreted into his moveset. Similarly, if you have a Xbox One by chance, Ninja Gaiden Black is on the Game Pass (which seems to perpetually be sold for $1, so no real excuse not to try stuff out on it if you have the system) and shows the beauty (and once again, nail biting difficulty) of modern Ninja Gaiden. The modern Ninja Gaiden games show off so much more potential for Ryu's potential moveset so he uses a wide variety of weapons in the game such as nunchuks, staffs, claws, etc. alongside really cool Ninpo techniques that include fire, ice, and the like. While Hayabusa is guaranteed to use his famous Dragon Sword, he's much like Hero in the sense that Sakurai could pull from a lot of stuff to diversify his moveset and give him unique attributes. That doesn't solve anything if you're against human characters obviously, but I do recommend people give it more of a chance since it's so easily accessible. I know that I was frustrated with Terry's inclusion the other day, but I've been trying to do what I always do with characters I don't know in Smash and look further into their games with him and that helps immensely after first impressions of an idea might not be so good.

I am surprised to see such backlash on Ryu Hayabusa though, the original Ninja Gaiden is widely regarded as another NES classic that appears on basically every console it can and I remember it being a huge deal as a Xbox exclusive growing up. The series has sold comparably to the Persona series with around 7 million copies sold from what I can gather (the data on it isn't super great, but it's what I'm working with). Sure, it hasn't had a game in a few years, but still, I'm baffled that it seems like Terry is getting a better reception than Hayabusa in some places...
Hey I was actually just about to ask what kind of unique mechanics Ryu H could bring to the table since I never got into Ninja Gaiden! Thanks for reading my mind!
 

SwitchButton

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Uhhh.... I don't see how Dante is the single most important action figure in gaming. It has as many games as Ninja Gaiden does for reference, 6 (Ninja Gaiden had 3 NES title and 3 modern titles, though lots of those had expanded re-releases and there have been a couple of spin-offs, where Devil May Cry has 6 titles in the modern era with only just an overly expensive port of the first game appearing on a Nintendo system). Ninja Gaiden played a pivotal role in the return of 3D action games I'd argue as much as Devil May Cry did in proving that the genre could still work in the 2000s.

It's also worth noting, Kratos should arguably be the more important action game figure as God of War had sold nearly 19 million copies to Devil May Cry's 11 million a few years ago, and that difference has expanded with the most recent releases (God of War 2018 outsold Devil May Cry 5 by a few million units). He became one of Sony's mascots for crying out loud and is basically the only PS2 era icon to successfully transition to PS3 and subsequently the PS4.

And I don't even know if that's really a fair argument either seeing as there are lots of 3D action games with lots of importance overall. I don't think Devil May Cry, nor really any game, is the undisputed "winner of the genre" or whatever you're trying to present. Dante and Devil May Cry are important sure, but there's a lot more serious competition for that "spot" so to speak.
Dante singlehandedly pioneered the entire action game genre. It created the basic template of how combos and combat work in a 3D space and it's influence can still be VERY felt even to this day.

"sales" do not matter. They do not give a series historical importance.
 

Icewolff92

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I am surprised to see such backlash on Ryu Hayabusa though, the original Ninja Gaiden is widely regarded as another NES classic that appears on basically every console it can and I remember it being a huge deal as a Xbox exclusive growing up. The series has sold comparably to the Persona series with around 7 million copies sold from what I can gather (the data on it isn't super great, but it's what I'm working with). Sure, it hasn't had a game in a few years, but still, I'm baffled that it seems like Terry is getting a better reception than Hayabusa in some places...
My guess is that its because he (if he is in) is supposedly the last
 

Dynamic Worlok

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So the thought just occurred to me that we're going to get SNK Mii Costume and I'm just thinking do people really use the Mii Fighters? I barely see anyone really talk about them or legit play them, so out of all the characters why do they keep pushing Mii Costume DLC? Also to people who do play as Mii Fighters do you even use the DLC Mii Costume?
I actually like using the mii fighters a lot. And I'll use the DLC costumes if I like them enough, but almost never in such a way that recreates their intended character.
 

Fatmanonice

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SwitchButton SwitchButton I don't think there's anything wrong with Sakurai continuing to work on Smash, especially since he seems to enjoy it. Again, Nintendo aren't being slave-drivers and he currently has the most normal work schedule he's had in like 30 years according to him.
 

SwitchButton

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SwitchButton SwitchButton I don't think there's anything wrong with Sakurai continuing to work on Smash, especially since he seems to enjoy it. Again, Nintendo aren't being slave-drivers and he currently has the most normal work schedule he's had in like 30 years according to him.
He enjoys it so much that he cites it as the single source of most of his health problems. There's no real reason he can't move on after this pass. You've gotten like 40 Smash newcomers in the last 5 years. I don't see why he needs to be forced by fans to pump out more.
 

Nicnac

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He enjoys it so much that he cites it as the single source of most of his health problems.
From working too hard on something he loves? He doesn't seem to regret it considering he came back (again) for Ultimate, and I believe he said that he'd do another if Nintendo asked him to. Nintendo is also seemingly throwing him bones with the Fighter Pass. Assuming it is Terry Bogard that's next, 3/5 (at least) of the pass are characters that fall more in line with what he would pick rather than the big N.
 
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xpnc

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He enjoys it so much that he cites it as the single source of most of his health problems. There's no real reason he can't move on after this pass. You've gotten like 40 Smash newcomers in the last 5 years. I don't see why he needs to be forced by fans to pump out more.
Can we stop with this bizarre martyr complex? He said those things during the other games, but not this one. By all accounts he has had no health issues whatsoever during this game. He has a proper team fully experienced from working on 3ds, Wii U, and Ultimate. The days of Sakurai staying up 36 hours and sleeping under his desk because he doesn't trust anyone else to do the balancing are over
 

SwitchButton

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From working too hard on something he loves? He doesn't seem to regret it considering he came back (again) for Ultimate, and I believe he said that he'd do another if Nintendo asked him to.
So that means he needs to do nothing but make smash character between now and then? Why is that?
 

Nicnac

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So that means he needs to do nothing but make smash character between now and then? Why is that?
Sorry, I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying that because he is comfortable in his current position, he is doing nothing else but churning out fighters like a machine? Could you please elaborate?
 

Icewolff92

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SwitchButton SwitchButton I don't think there's anything wrong with Sakurai continuing to work on Smash, especially since he seems to enjoy it. Again, Nintendo aren't being slave-drivers and he currently has the most normal work schedule he's had in like 30 years according to him.
Don´t bother with him. He is clearly a troll
 

MisterMike

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So the thought just occurred to me that we're going to get SNK Mii Costume and I'm just thinking do people really use the Mii Fighters? I barely see anyone really talk about them or legit play them, so out of all the characters why do they keep pushing Mii Costume DLC? Also to people who do play as Mii Fighters do you even use the DLC Mii Costume?
I don't use them often, but I'm sure there are people that do regularly. I've never gone out of my way to purchase any DLC costumes, but I'm tempted to get the Slime Hat. IT'S SO CUTE!~

Ninja Gaiden had 3 NES games. That's about it's entire "history". It didn't really create a genre or define anything. It was just stupid ****ing hard, but then again most NES games were. Considering it's primarily known for it's two Xbox action titles, I'd say it absolutely a shame that it got in before the single most important action game figure in gaming.

Remember: older =/= more historically important
Devil May Cry had 6 total games, and only three of them are universally considered good. It may have been one of the earliest of the genre, but it certainly isn't the only one, or even the most relevant nowadays. It was just flashy ****ing bull****, but then again most hack-n-slash games are. Considering it's primarily known for it's first and third games, I'd say it would absolutely be a shame that it got in before the other, more important action game figures in gaming.

Remember: You can use this justification to shun any and all games or characters you don't care about. :ultkrool:
 
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SwitchButton

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Sorry, I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying that because he is comfortable in his current position, he is doing nothing else but churning out fighters like a machine? Could you please elaborate?
In the last 5 years Sakurai has done nothing but pump out Smash Fighters for you. Why, exactly, does he need to force himself to do more? There's more then enough to last you til next game.

Don´t bother with him. He is clearly a troll
What a high quality post that offers so much to this discussion.
 

Strong Badam

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Been getting numerous reports from this thread. Please discuss things civilly and respect each other.
Don´t bother with him. He is clearly a troll
If you believe a user to be breaking forum rules, please simply use the report feature instead of making posts like this. Even well-intentioned backseat moderation does not help to resolve conflicts.
 

Nicnac

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In the last 5 years Sakurai has done nothing but pump out Smash Fighters for you. Why, exactly, does he need to force himself to do more? There's more then enough to last you til next game.
He said that he would do another game if Nintendo asked him. When did I say I wanted him to keep blasting out fighters???? He doesn't need to force himself but he stated that he would do another of his own free will.
 

xpnc

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In the last 5 years Sakurai has done nothing but pump out Smash Fighters for you. Why, exactly, does he need to force himself to do more? There's more then enough to last you til next game.



What a high quality post that offers so much to this discussion.
What do you mean force himself? He says he enjoys doing it and he intends on making more Smash games. I don't think I've ever seen someone get so defensive on someone else's behalf. Like imagine someone getting mad at a musician's fans for wanting them to make more songs
 

Dynamic Worlok

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How dare you hope for more content for this game that you enjoy. You people sicken me.
:yeahboi:
 

EricTheGamerman

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I guess I should have asked if Ninja Gaiden is historically significant enough to get into Smash, not more significant than Dante.
I'm not old enough to have play most NES games, so I don't have a lot of knowledge of Ninja Gaiden, but it was a game series I always knew the name of growing up. Also after looking up the series on the internet now, it seems it was the first game to really use cinematics to tell a story which seems important to me. Additionally, the internet made it sound like it was very popular in the US when it came out.
For people of the NES era (at least from what I gather, I use to be pretty involved with looking into that era and the people associated with it), Ninja Gaiden is absolutely a classic that was popular in the day. It's the top of line 2D action game that holds an important place in the NES library alongside the like of Mega Man, Castlevania, and Contra (which is also not represented). Those were the classic third parties that very much defined the NES action genre, and yes, the use of cinematics was a big deal for a console game back then and Ninja Gaiden has been credited with influencing many games in that regard too. It gets huge amounts of praise for making that sort of thing mainstream and it frequently appears on the best of NES lists every time they come up. The Xbox title also plays into a similar role of influencing modern 3D action games even if it wasn't the first.

So the thought just occurred to me that we're going to get SNK Mii Costume and I'm just thinking do people really use the Mii Fighters? I barely see anyone really talk about them or legit play them, so out of all the characters why do they keep pushing Mii Costume DLC? Also to people who do play as Mii Fighters do you even use the DLC Mii Costume?
They wouldn't make them if they didn't sale, so it's safe to say that some people use them enough to justify the development.

Dante singlehandedly pioneered the entire action game genre. It created the basic template of how combos and combat work in a 3D space and it's influence can still be VERY felt even to this day.

"sales" do not matter. They do not give a series historical importance.
It's worth noting that the original Devil May Cry was also heavily influenced by Onimusha and that 3D action games in general were slowly coming into view like that and titles like Dynasty Warriors 2 were already out that helped to build that blueprint. It doesn't get all of the credit, it just gets some of the credit. I'm not denying that Devil May Cry is an important entry in 3D action games, but it's also just one part of a bigger overall movement towards those types of games and you're perhaps giving it a bit too much credit (also worth noting action games had existed for ages before this in 2D, which Ninja Gaiden was a pioneer of too). I'd also like to point out that a 3D Ninja Gaiden title had been in development at the same time Devil May Cry was in development starting in 1999.

There's a great little IGN article on Ninja Gaiden's history and relevance to for all to read: https://www.ign.com/articles/2008/01/28/ign-presents-the-history-of-ninja-gaiden.
 

MissingGlitch

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If Sakurai makes more DLC. He wanted to. It's not like Nintendo chained him up in their basement and is forcing him to make more content for smash Sakurai can walk whenever.
 

SwitchButton

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He said that he would do another game if Nintendo asked him. When did I say I wanted him to keep blasting out fighters???? He doesn't need to force himself but he stated that he would do another of his own free will.
He said he'd do another GAME in the future. He never said he'd endlessly pump out DLC.

What do you mean force himself? He says he enjoys doing it and he intends on making more Smash games. I don't think I've ever seen someone get so defensive on someone else's behalf. Like imagine someone getting mad at a musician's fans for wanting them to make more songs
You sure are struggling to cope with the fact that the man may want to move onto new projects. You're basically asking a musician to remix the exact same album ad infinitum. The game doesn't need endless DLC.

How dare you hope for more content for this game that you enjoy. You people sicken me.
:yeahboi:
How dare you try and move on with your life, Mr. Sakurai. You need to keep pumping out DLC until you eventually choose MY PERSONAL most wanted.
 
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xpnc

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You sure are struggling to cope with the fact that the man may want to move onto new projects. You're basically asking a musician to remix the exact same album ad infinitum. The game doesn't need endless DLC.
I'm "struggling to cope," eh? You okay man? In what world does "hey, I hope there's a few more characters" translate to "I want this man to work himself to the bone for all of eternity"? And no, hoping a musician releases singles in between their albums is a completely normal thing that fans look forward to. I think you need to step away because you're getting awfully heated over this.
 
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Dynamic Worlok

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If Sakurai makes more DLC. He wanted to. It's not like Nintendo chained him up in their basement and is forcing him to make more content for smash Sakurai can walk whenever.
Pretty much. It's not like any of us are holding his career hostage in exchange for more smash DLC. The man can quit whenever he wants. Doesn't mean I can't hope for more.
 

SwitchButton

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It's worth noting that the original Devil May Cry was also heavily influenced by Onimusha and that 3D action games in general were slowly coming into view like that and titles like Dynasty Warriors 2 were already out that helped to build that blueprint. It doesn't get all of the credit, it just gets some of the credit. I'm not denying that Devil May Cry is an important entry in 3D action games, but it's also just one part of a bigger overall movement towards those types of games and you're perhaps giving it a bit too much credit
But the same could be said for Dragon Quest and JRPGs. Of course any genre is created in baby steps, but the point of DMC is that it's the single definitive point where the standards and fundamentals of the genre were set in stone. It's when it all came together. The fact that DMC specifically is what influenced such a high number of action games even to this day speaks volumes about it's influence.
 

MissingGlitch

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Pretty much. It's not like any of us are holding his career hostage in exchange for more smash DLC. The man can quit whenever he wants. Doesn't mean I can't hope for more.
Maybe Nintendo does have him hostage....quick we need to storm Nintendo HQ to save Sakurai. They can’t stop all of us,
 

MisterMike

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He said he'd do another GAME in the future. He never said he'd endlessly pump out DLC.

You sure are struggling to cope with the fact that the man may want to move onto new projects. You're basically asking a musician to remix the exact same album ad infinitum. The game doesn't need endless DLC.

How dare you try and move on with your life, Mr. Sakurai. You need to keep pumping out DLC until you eventually choose MY PERSONAL most wanted.
"Every so often, people will tell me that I should work on other projects besides Smash. I interpret this to mean they have faith in my ability to create something fun and unique, and I appreciate it.

However, Nintendo is the one who decides to make Smash, and if they ask me to oversee its development, then I feel obligated to make it my top priority regardless of the consequences.

I’ve been tasked with directing this dreadfully expansive project. There are few jobs that will wear you out like this one. That said, working on Smash is far from a given.

If you were to ask if I felt stuck in a rut continuously working on the same series, I would have to disagree. It takes a lot of ingenuity to come up with a way to implement seemingly impossible characters into the game. There’s also a certain prestige that comes with handling content from so many beloved titles.

There are tons of new and interesting games out there, but Smash is truly unique. It’s different than simply spitting out a sequel. It’s a project that can only be made with the cooperation and consent of many different people. Smash is special." - Masahiro Sakurai, Smash is Special - Part 2, Vol. 558
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2018/07/02/smash_special_complete/
There you go, now shut the **** up you misinformed asshole.
 

Dynamic Worlok

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Maybe Nintendo does have him hostage....quick we need to storm Nintendo HQ to save Sakurai. They can’t stop all of us,
We'll have to naruto run for maximum effectiveness. Besides, you know Nintendo is hiding kid icarus uprising 2 in there
 

SwitchButton

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I'm "struggling to cope," eh? You okay man? In what world is "hey, I hope there's a few more characters" translate to "I want this man to work himself to the bone for all of eternity"? And no, hoping a musician releases singles in between their albums is a completely normal thing that fans look forward to. I think you need to step away because you're getting awfully heated over this.
Ironically, resorting to accusing me of getting angry only makes you look upset and frustrated. Since it's a form of deflection. I'm just helping you come to terms with reality, because I know how you people can get when the development ends. I'm not gonna ""step away"", but you can feel free to stay here with me, as you are clearly very calm atm :)
 

Strong Badam

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I was very clear earlier regarding civility but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Clearly, this thread needs a timeout. I'll be unlocking this in a few hours after you all have had some time to cool off and I've had time to properly review posts and apply warnings.

If you find yourself in an exchange where you feel the need to both report and reply to a user's post, consider not replying. Much of this could have been avoided with that strategy alone.
 

Strong Badam

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Thread reopened. Per my last post, closely consider whether or not replying to a user is a good idea. In particular, if you think the user is trolling and have reported them as such, replying to them is a bizarre decision to make. You have, presumably, done the difficult work of identifying that someone's primary goal is to make you reply to them. Why, then, would you do so anyway? As a result, this thread got very heated and rapidly devolved into a discussion about Sakurai's work-life balance and choice of future projects (which is entirely unrelated to Geno or Smash Ultimate in the first place) when it did not need to. In the future, use the report feature and leave the thread until it's been dealt with. This is, in particular, important if a character is announced and you feel the need to go into speculation threads of other characters to whine or gloat, or you see someone else doing so. This is not likely to make you popular and will instead net you warnings.

We realize that the incoming Direct and recent leaks have caused tensions to rise with regards to speculation. This does not suddenly excuse poor and rude behavior. Be kind to your fellow smash fans. You are more alike than it may seem in these heated speculation threads. Human nature often drives us to be on our worst behavior in tense moments when it is our best behavior that is needed. Put your best foot forward and be nice to others, even in disagreement. Discussing video games is certainly not the only instance where such a skill is helpful.

Taking pot shots on posts from before the lock is obviously a bad idea. Don't do it.

Open Sesame, as they say.
 

Dynamic Worlok

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And so we begin anew. If there is a fighters pass 2.0, what characters do you think would be added?
 

Xehanort1372019

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Thread reopened. Per my last post, closely consider whether or not replying to a user is a good idea. In particular, if you think the user is trolling and have reported them as such, replying to them is a bizarre decision to make. You have, presumably, done the difficult work of identifying that someone's primary goal is to make you reply to them. Why, then, would you do so anyway? As a result, this thread got very heated and rapidly devolved into a discussion about Sakurai's work-life balance and choice of future projects (which is entirely unrelated to Geno or Smash Ultimate in the first place) when it did not need to. In the future, use the report feature and leave the thread until it's been dealt with. This is, in particular, important if a character is announced and you feel the need to go into speculation threads of other characters to whine or gloat, or you see someone else doing so. This is not likely to make you popular and will instead net you warnings.

We realize that the incoming Direct and recent leaks have caused tensions to rise with regards to speculation. This does not suddenly excuse poor and rude behavior. Be kind to your fellow smash fans. You are more alike than it may seem in these heated speculation threads. Human nature often drives us to be on our worst behavior in tense moments when it is our best behavior that is needed. Put your best foot forward and be nice to others, even in disagreement. Discussing video games is certainly not the only instance where such a skill is helpful.

Taking pot shots on posts from before the lock is obviously a bad idea. Don't do it.

Open Sesame, as they say.
Thanks for putting things back in order, Strong Bad.
 
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