Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[TheCJBrine]

There's toxicity in every community, all of them being annoying.

You got the Steve trolls that, even if some of them may actually want Steve but have to be jerks about it, not only annoy people but also annoy other Steve fans ("other" if any of the trolls are even fans) because of their deformed render and ruining the Steve fanbase's reputation for anyone that judges things by the fans.

Then you even have some toxic Banjo-Kazooie fans (if they're not trolls too but some people seem genuine) that bash Steve / Minecraft fans even if they're being polite and saying nothing about B-K or at least nothing negative, and no one cares about the fact that some Steve fans may be young and more emotional.

Then of course you have all the people using "irrelevancy" as an argument even after K. Rool's and B-K's reveals; I've seen two somewhat recently saying "Geno is dead" and "irrelevant Geno only appearing in one non-canon game."

Then of course you have the type of people who throw crabs at tournaments among many other kinds of toxic people.

I'd also like to say that I understand really wanting a character and said character being asked for a long time, but I don't like it when people use that as an excuse to downplay or bash another character; someone came into the Steve thread one time using that excuse and telling us to "stop crying" when none of us were even crying lol, just not wanting stupid trolls in the thread. Even if not talking to a certain character's fans directly, it feels selfish when a character is said to be more "deserving" than another instead of being fair about it. I also find it selfish when someone uses part of a character's fanbase as an excuse. Not like any jerks' or trolls' opinions matter, anyway, we just gotta continue being nice and convince the companies.

 

[Wazygoose]

I'd throw Pikachu in there too but, yeah, those are pretty much the only characters that virtually everyone knows around the world. From there it's definitely varying degrees of recognition, from known by just about anyone who has ever picked up a game controller like Luigi and Sonic to super niche and most people wouldn't have a clue who they were if it wasn't for Smash like Corrin and Game and Watch.

Dang forgot Pikachu.

 

[EarlTamm]

I think a part of the reason the community can get pretty toxic is the fact that Smash is a enormous gaming melting pot. With each franchise you bring in, you also bring in that community. Having all of these Nintendo and third party franchises communities interacting with each other is certainly a cause for sparks, as there is so many different views and opinions being passed around. And we all know how some people can feel about different opinions.

 

[GrungeMan]

I think a part of the reason the community can get pretty toxic is the fact that Smash is a enormous gaming melting pot. With each franchise you bring in, you also bring in that community. Having all of these Nintendo and third party franchises communities interacting with each other is certainly a cause for sparks, as there is so many different views and opinions being passed around. And we all know how some people can feel about different opinions.

I definitely agree that's a contributing factor as well. Great point!

 

[Deleted member]

If I am honest, most of the people I’ve met and talked with from the DQ fandom tend to be pretty cool and chill people.

Not saying it is the only fandom I enjoy doh.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think a part of the reason the community can get pretty toxic is the fact that Smash is a enormous gaming melting pot. With each franchise you bring in, you also bring in that community. Having all of these Nintendo and third party franchises communities interacting with each other is certainly a cause for sparks, as there is so many different views and opinions being passed around. And we all know how some people can feel about different opinions.

Part of the reason why I don't want... certain characters in.

 

[EarlTamm]

Part of the reason why I don't want... certain characters in.

I can see why that would be a worry, but I try to separate the product from the community. Or, at the very least, when the community shouldn't matter in regards to the product.

 

[Firox]

As a whole the Smash community has a bit of a negative reputation about it, mostly because of the fact Smash bros has a massive casual competitive divide with the fans of both side regularly bashing the other, with Melee elitism being one of the biggest examples of this. Oh and we get the same stigma as Magic the Gathering and Yu-gi-oh because some people who show up to tournaments smell awful. This is actually enough of a problem some venues sell soap and have rules that punish people for smelling bad.

As both a lifelong Smash Bros AND Yugioh player, I can corroborate this. Sadly, both fanbases are also notoriously jam-packed with bad sports and sore losers that rage over the dumbest things. At least the advent of Smash Ultimate seems to have FINALLY started to choke out the melee scene in general, and by extension, the elitism. It's nice to see the 5 gods finally retiring or moving on to the latest game so as to unify the smash fanbase as a whole. I mean, melee is great and all, and it's had a phenomenal run, but cmon people, it's time to move on. Leave behind all those exploitable glitches and step into the beauty of HD and a roster that's more than triple the size. (Sean Connery voice): Let it go.

Seriously though, what the FREAK is up with the whole stanky thing at tournaments?! Does nobody shower? I mean, living with your mom at 30 is one thing, but can nobody smell their own B.O.? smh

 

[Ovaltine]

As both a lifelong Smash Bros AND Yugioh player, I can corroborate this. Sadly, both fanbases are also notoriously jam-packed with bad sports and sore losers that rage over the dumbest things. At least the advent of Smash Ultimate seems to have FINALLY started to choke out the melee scene in general, and by extension, the elitism. It's nice to see the 5 gods finally retiring or moving on to the latest game so as to unify the smash fanbase as a whole. I mean, melee is great and all, and it's had a phenomenal run, but cmon people, it's time to move on. Leave behind all those exploitable glitches and step into the beauty of HD and a roster that's more than triple the size. (Sean Connery voice): Let it go.

Seriously though, what the FREAK is up with the whole stanky thing at tournaments?! Does nobody shower? I mean, living with your mom at 30 is one thing, but can nobody smell their own B.O.? smh

Living with your parents in your 30's is becoming increasingly more common, and it really shouldn't be stigmatized the way it is nowadays. Not all people who are that old and still living at home are gross mooches. The economy is just that terrible. I'm 27 and I take care of my unwell father, keep up the house cleaning, do the cooking, do the laundry, and generally do... everything. I'm a super-duper homebody, contribute to bills, and, none the least of which, keep a clean shop in general.

How people don't shower at LEAST once every single day is baffling to me. I'd feel so disgusting even missing one day without a shower. Deodorant is your best friend, too! It sure is mine. I'll always keep up on my hygiene, and it's impossible for me to understand how anyone could live otherwise. Just... ick.

 

[GrungeMan]

As both a lifelong Smash Bros AND Yugioh player, I can corroborate this. Sadly, both fanbases are also notoriously jam-packed with bad sports and sore losers that rage over the dumbest things.

I didn't ever experience this at tournements, but then again I was with friends and we were to ourselves mostly. To be fair, the rage quits and pettiness was probably there in full force, we just weren't around it or avoided people who were known to act like that. We felt like aliens visiting another planet though. Not only did it smell, but people were generally difficult to talk to. Like I said, I met some pretty dope people along the way in those four years, but social awkwardness was definitely thematic of smash tournaments haha, at least for me.

There is a youtuber named the Mighty Keef who I swear lived the same smash life as me - some stuff is over my head because I haven't been to a Sm4sh or Ultimate tournement, but many of his skits, videos, rants are really relatable to how I remember smash was when I went to Melee/Brawl tournaments and stuff. The dude is hilarious and he makes some pretty funny observations about smash and smash culture.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I could say a lot about the Smash Community because I've been an active part of it for almost 15 years but it's honestly an exhausting topic. This year has been really rough for it and I find myself playing Smash less and less because of what's happened.

 

[ShotoStar 2]

I have a question; Let's say Geno will be DLC how do you think he'll play out? Would he be apart of the Fighters Pass or as Bonus DLC? I for one hope he'll be apart of the Fighters Pass as he may get a red carpet treatment like Joker but I find it a whole lot more likely to see him as bonus DLC just based off of the Spirit Board thing, I don't really know how they would work around that.

Maybe there wouldn't be a Spirit Board for him Maybe they'll do general Mario RPG (SMRPG/M&L/PM) Spirits or maybe they'll do just SMRPG Spirits somehow but regardless I would prefer Geno to be apart of the FP though I find him being Bonus DLC a whole lot more likely.

 

[EarlTamm]

I have a question; Let's say Geno will be DLC how do you think he'll play out? Would he be apart of the Fighters Pass or as Bonus DLC? I for one hope he'll be apart of the Fighters Pass as he may get a red carpet treatment like Joker but I find it a whole lot more likely to see him as bonus DLC just based off of the Spirit Board thing, I don't really know how they would work around that.

Maybe there wouldn't be a Spirit Board for him Maybe they'll do general Mario RPG (SMRPG/M&L/PM) Spirits or maybe they'll do just SMRPG Spirits somehow but regardless I would prefer Geno to be apart of the FP though I find him being Bonus DLC a whole lot more likely.

I think neither, but I think he could be in eventually. I don't expect him to be apart of the fighter pass, but I think there might be DLC beyond it that is not just a bonus. That is where I think his chances are the best. As for the spirit board, that is no issue. There are plenty of SMRP specific characters and renders they could use for a board.

 

[ShotoStar 2]

I think neither, but I think he could be in eventually. I don't expect him to be apart of the fighter pass, but I think there might be DLC beyond it that is not just a bonus. That is where I think his chances are the best. As for the spirit board, that is no issue. There are plenty of SMRPG specific characters and renders they could use for a board.

Oh, No I meant additional DLC after the Fighters Pass not as a Bonus to the Fighters Pass. Like DLC after the Fighters Pass.

 

[EarlTamm]

Oh, No I meant additional DLC after the Fighters Pass not as a Bonus to the Fighters Pass. Like DLC after the Fighters Pass.

Then that. I have a good feeling that we will get more, especially after Sakurai's recent statements.

 

[Fatmanonice]

If he's bonus DLC, I'm hoping they go the Corrin route and let him have some music with him. I also don't think a Spirit board would be too much of an issue because, like Joker showed, they can go ham with side characters and there's already plenty that have an uncanny resemblance to already playable characters.

Thinking about my post earlier, I'm kind of wondering if Square set parameters, like, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest had to get in first before they baulked with anything else. Cloud's definitely popular and a big deal but supposedly it wasn't the Ballot that spurred the decision to add him. Geno's costume, however, like most of the other costumes, was. Bayo was supposedly the first full on character that was decided because of it and, like we've talked about, a huge portion of the costumes were upgraded to assist trophies or playable. I've also noticed that, despite the tape dispenser length of copyrights associated with Dragon Quest, it's simply liscensed under Square for Smash meaning there's a whoooole lotta trust being given to Sakurai to use them. If anything, it has shown that Sakurai has spent a decade developing a strong relationship with Square and I honestly believe they wouldn't turn him down for anything if he simply asked at this point. That said, did he ask this time? Stay tuned.

 

[GrungeMan]

I could say a lot about the Smash Community because I've been an active part of it for almost 15 years but it's honestly an exhausting topic. This year has been really rough for it and I find myself playing Smash less and less because of what's happened.

That's unfortunate and I am sorry to hear that. When I read your post it kind of made me a little glad that I'm not really familiar with these things. I've put in years of my life into smash since '99 til today playing Ultimate, but only competitively for like one year of Melee and then almost all of Brawl's life cycle (which is when I originally got on Smashboards in '08), but I've never really been in the "community" directly I guess...

Just based on your posts I could tell you're probably a wise old sage of Smash history and probably just the person to ask about this stuff, but I'll spare you my questions haha

 

[GoodGrief741]

I have a question; Let's say Geno will be DLC how do you think he'll play out? Would he be apart of the Fighters Pass or as Bonus DLC? I for one hope he'll be apart of the Fighters Pass as he may get a red carpet treatment like Joker but I find it a whole lot more likely to see him as bonus DLC just based off of the Spirit Board thing, I don't really know how they would work around that.

Maybe there wouldn't be a Spirit Board for him Maybe they'll do general Mario RPG (SMRPG/M&L/PM) Spirits or maybe they'll do just SMRPG Spirits somehow but regardless I would prefer Geno to be apart of the FP though I find him being Bonus DLC a whole lot more likely.

I think his only shot is in a hypothetical second Pass. I'd say his chances are nearly zero for this one and they won't do bonus DLC.

 

[Ovaltine]

I think his only shot is in a hypothetical second Pass. I'd say his chances are nearly zero for this one and they won't do bonus DLC.

I don't think they'd ever really do a second pass. If we get more DLC, I honestly think it'd be individual characters, what with Sakurai's disdain for season passes and Nintendo jumping the gun before. He didn't have any real opportunity to argue it, I don't think.

Would I consider it bonus DLC? Nah. Individual, paid fighters aren't something I'd rule out, though.

 

[Datboigeno]

I don't think they'd ever really do a second pass. If we get more DLC, I honestly think it'd be individual characters, what with Sakurai's disdain for season passes and Nintendo jumping the gun before. He didn't have any real opportunity to argue it, I don't think.

Would I consider it bonus DLC? Nah. Individual, paid fighters aren't something I'd rule out, though.

I guess I don't think it's that farfetchd to do at least one more Fighters Pass. More than that I'd be extremely skeptical of but really it wouldn't be that different than releasing "bonus DLC" of other fighters. If he's willing to do more DLC of newcomers and not like echos or something I don't see the big deal. Especially if he negotiated it with Nintendo in terms of price or extra manpower so people weren't overworked.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not much to talk about rumor wise right now (only major thing is that King Zell among others insist that the big Nintendo/Microsoft project is still coming) so I decided to go back and read some older things.

https://nintendoeverything.com/smash-bros-masahiro-sakurai-no-goku-ballot/

Some interesting notes:

-Talks about how Bayonetta was the first Ballot pick, not Cloud. As he said back in 2015, she was the "winner" because she was most realizable. Talks about how there were picks above her that they weren't able to negotiate in time.

Pretty sure he never said Cloud was a ballot pick anyway? That said, this doesn't really explain why she suddenly has a huge amount of work done and is available in the datamine. She was most likely intended to be in the game regardless, as negotiations take a lot of time, though possibly not as playable.

Also, he didn't say negotiate in time, he said unable to negotiate. That's a huge difference. And a lot of them were done way earlier, probably for base roster as is. Like Snake.

 

[AugustusB]

I have been sick all day and could not do a single thing. How is everyone?

Fatmanonice to your first post on this page about negotiations falling through and which characters that could've been?

Might one of them have been Geno? We got the splash screen for his Mii Costume like he was a big deal. Something just made me think about that possibility. I mean, Sakurai could have gone to someone else in Square for Geno before going to Nomura for Cloud.

Just thoughts from a sick man.

 

[Datboigeno]

Pretty sure he never said Cloud was a ballot pick anyway? That said, this doesn't really explain why she suddenly has a huge amount of work done and is available in the datamine. She was most likely intended to be in the game regardless, as negotiations take a lot of time, though possibly not as playable.

Also, he didn't say negotiate in time, he said unable to negotiate. That's a huge difference. And a lot of them were done way earlier, probably for base roster as is. Like Snake.

How else would she have been in the game if not playable? As an AT? That doesn't really make much sense and doesn't line up with what he's said. It's more likely there were characters planned and worked on up until a certain point and when they weren't negotiable work continued on those they were able to negotiate for.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

How else would she have been in the game if not playable? As an AT? That doesn't really make much sense and doesn't line up with what he's said. It's more likely there were characters planned and worked on up until a certain point and when they weren't negotiable work continued on those they were able to negotiate for.

Yes. As an AT. That's absolutely possible she was planned as that and the ballot changed his mind.

If that's not the case, that meant he had another reason to choose her regardless of the ballot. Something we don't know at all. Being a very relevant Sega character made her a neat idea as an AT. Maybe he thought of that earlier(to do an AT as DLC), but new information changed his mind. It's weird we never had a DLC AT, but it doesn't mean it wasn't thought of.

But keep in mind they cannot work on characters that are 3rd party without licensing them first. No matter what the role is. They can get sued for that, even if not releasing them. If Nintendo owns something among that 3rd party franchise, they can probably do a little something with it at best, but that's actually debatable if true. At least the Rareware spirits imply this, where all they could use is the name. Nonetheless, it's pretty obvious Bayonetta was negotiated before the ballot started as is. So the interview doesn't change much that we didn't already know. Unless there's the idea she was negotiated for within the first week and he somehow got skeletal work done in the next week, which sounds highly unrealistic.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Pretty sure he never said Cloud was a ballot pick anyway? That said, this doesn't really explain why she suddenly has a huge amount of work done and is available in the datamine. She was most likely intended to be in the game regardless, as negotiations take a lot of time, though possibly not as playable.

Also, he didn't say negotiate in time, he said unable to negotiate. That's a huge difference. And a lot of them were done way earlier, probably for base roster as is. Like Snake.

He didn't but a lot of people assumed that Cloud was picked because of the ballot. As for Bayonetta, it's in one of the Famitsu articles but supposedly she was chosen about two weeks into the Ballot, meaning mid April 2015, largely lining up with Sakurai's statements in the past that characters take on average about 10 months to a year to develop (and probably explaining why she was unbalanced AF when she first came out).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

He didn't but a lot of people assumed that Cloud was picked because of the ballot. As for Bayonetta, it's in one of the Famitsu articles but supposedly she was chosen about two weeks into the Ballot, meaning mid April 2015, largely lining up with Sakurai's statements in the past that characters take on average about 10 months to a year to develop (and probably explaining why she was unbalanced AF when she first came out).

I doubt she was chosen that fast. That's way too much work to do and negotiate for. I find it vastly more likely she was added in the game as is(possibly an AT) first, and then the Ballot changed his mind, mainly as I said above to Datboigeno. In fact, while we don't have any DLC AT's, I'm sure he's thought about it before as is. This fits a lot of why it didn't happen yet. It takes too much time and generally that amount of time spent might as well be a new playable character if possible.

No question that she was done way faster than normal, though.

 

[Datboigeno]

Yes. As an AT. That's absolutely possible she was planned as that and the ballot changed his mind.

If that's not the case, that meant he had another reason to choose her regardless of the ballot. Something we don't know at all. Being a very relevant Sega character made her a neat idea as an AT. Maybe he thought of that earlier(to do an AT as DLC), but new information changed his mind. It's weird we never had a DLC AT, but it doesn't mean it wasn't thought of.

But keep in mind they cannot work on characters that are 3rd party without licensing them first. No matter what the role is. They can get sued for that, even if not releasing them. If Nintendo owns something among that 3rd party franchise, they can probably do a little something with it at best, but that's actually debatable if true. At least the Rareware spirits imply this, where all they could use is the name. Nonetheless, it's pretty obvious Bayonetta was negotiated before the ballot started as is. So the interview doesn't change much that we didn't already know. Unless there's the idea she was negotiated for within the first week and he somehow got skeletal work done in the next week, which sounds highly unrealistic.

I think there's a lot of assumptions here that contradict what has already been suggested regarding the development of Sm4sh. It makes way more sense for the bare bones of Bayo to have been worked on as a potential character before licensing deals were finalized than her having been intended to be a DLC AT the existence of which is something that has never been mentioned or implied by Sakurai or anyone else.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think there's a lot of assumptions here that contradict what has already been suggested regarding the development of Sm4sh. It makes way more sense for the bare bones of Bayo to have been worked on as a potential character before licensing deals were finalized than her having been intended to be a DLC AT the existence of which is something that has never been mentioned or implied by Sakurai or anyone else.

No, it doesn't make sense to do that. You aren't going to work on something at all unless you're sure you can use it. That's a giant waste of time when they can't spend time on stuff like that. If they own the content, it's no big deal. But they don't. Negotiations happen before work on 3rd parties. It's basic courtesy to avoid getting sued. She absolutely was negotiated for first.

It doesn't really matter if she might've been intended as an AT first(which is possible). It doesn't actually matter what role she was going to have. She was licensed first to use. Once the licensing is done, they can renegotiate to do something a bit different and he actually paid for the license already, so there is no problem to deal with. Licensing comes first and foremost before any real work starts. The best you'll see is them showcasing a model to start with, or some images, but those are part of the proposal process. Skeleton work is gameplay work that starts later on in development.

The AT thing is a logical theory of why she was negotiated for before the ballot started. It doesn't mean it was the case. He doesn't have to mention it for it to be a possible reason they already had skeleton work done that fast. And it more fits how the ballot influenced him to make her playable while fitting in a realistic timeframe. Otherwise, being chosen independent of the ballot(but also the first character that happens to be realizable among everyone in the ballot, if not possibly the only one somewhat related, as the ballot appears to have only been properly used for Ultimate characters, but also for Smash DLC costumes) is probably what happened.

 

[EarlTamm]

I don't think they'd ever really do a second pass. If we get more DLC, I honestly think it'd be individual characters, what with Sakurai's disdain for season passes and Nintendo jumping the gun before. He didn't have any real opportunity to argue it, I don't think.

Would I consider it bonus DLC? Nah. Individual, paid fighters aren't something I'd rule out, though.

Like his disdain for sequels? Like his dislike for Smash having any competitive elements? I think Sakurai has already shown that, even if he dislikes something or doesn't understand it, if it gets what the fans want it's what he will do. I think that plays into his workaholic nature as well.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I doubt she was chosen that fast. That's way too much work to do and negotiate for. I find it vastly more likely she was added in the game as is(possibly an AT) first, and then the Ballot changed his mind, mainly as I said above to Datboigeno. In fact, while we don't have any DLC AT's, I'm sure he's thought about it before as is. This fits a lot of why it didn't happen yet. It takes too much time and generally that amount of time spent might as well be a new playable character if possible.

No question that she was done way faster than normal, though.

That's completely far-fetched. The datamines that show her early in the game show her as playable, not as an AT. Plus there were no DLC ATs so it's strange to assume without any basis.

What probably happened is that Bayonetta was going to be playable regardless and it was later decided to label her as the Ballot winner (whether that corresponds with the Ballot or not, I can't say).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's completely far-fetched. The datamines that show her early in the game show her as playable, not as an AT. Plus there were no DLC ATs so it's strange to assume without any basis.

Yes, because her data was no longer as an AT as her role was changed with renegotiations(because she's fully licensed to use, they can immediately do this without issues). There's literally no given reason why she was in the game that fast(which is severely unlikely she was actually chosen due to the ballot. The AT theory, which isn't remotely far-fetched at all, is the only realistic way she's also a proper ballot pick).

There's probably some confusion on how the data works; they can easily re-label or put the file name somewhere else for the data itself. The skeleton work is already done. How it's labeled is irrelevant to how long it takes to work. It takes very little time(compared to actually doing it) to move it to another spot.

What probably happened is that Bayonetta was going to be playable regardless and it was later decided to label her as the Ballot winner (whether that corresponds with the Ballot or not, I can't say).

And yet there's no reason given why she was in the game. There's a reason people are wondering what the hell was going on. There's literally zero proper information on what made her interesting as a choice before the ballot. There's also absolutely nothing suggesting that AT DLC was never on the table either, so there's really no counter evidence it's some impossible thing to happen. Until he speaks on why there is no AT DLC, there's no reason to assume it was never on the table either.

"It has yet to happen so there's no way it could happen" is a very fallacious argument to make. The most unrealistic thing is that she was literally chosen within the first day of the ballot, somehow got licensed, and then got work done just like that. Which is why people really don't believe the ballot was the sole factor at all.

 

[T2by4]

Not much to talk about rumor wise right now (only major thing is that King Zell among others insist that the big Nintendo/Microsoft project is still coming) so I decided to go back and read some older things.

https://nintendoeverything.com/smash-bros-masahiro-sakurai-no-goku-ballot/

Some interesting notes:

-Talks about how Bayonetta was the first Ballot pick, not Cloud. As he said back in 2015, she was the "winner" because she was most realizable. Talks about how there were picks above her that they weren't able to negotiate in time.

-The first initial plan for Smash Ultimate was concluded coincidentally the same day as the last Smash 4 Direct in late 2015.

-DLC was not part of the original Smash Ultimate plan and was kind of dropped on the developers sometime before the game was first teased in 2018.

-The Ballot was used very heavily in the development of Smash Ultimate (goes without saying).

It's an interesting take because it makes me wonder who they failed to negotiate for Smash 4 and what the timeline of everything is. Joker, Hero, and Banjo were supposedly all in development around Christmas last year so when did #4 and 5 start? If everything here is true, it raises more questions about the Vifam figure because he was using it for Smash Ultimate even before DLC was decided so what were his plans for it?

"DLC was not part of the original Smash Ultimate plan and was kind of dropped on the developers sometime before the game was first teased in 2018."

That's a bit disheartening for Geno's chances. Makes me think that he was never considered to ever join Ultimate. Really hope that's not the case or they change their minds later.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"DLC was not part of the original Smash Ultimate plan and was kind of dropped on the developers sometime before the game was first teased in 2018."

That's a bit disheartening for Geno's chances. Makes me think that he was never considered to ever join Ultimate. Really hope that's not the case or they change their minds later.

Outside of base, at least. I mean, he has a Spirit. He was probably brought up but shot down by SE. Unlike with FF, it's hard to say who owns what among SE for SMRPG's specific stuff. We know that DQ and FF have multiple ownerships of different things(Music, Character Designs, etc).

As for why, it's because Sakurai cannot decide the entire roster and then license everyone. He can make an actual roster design that is ideal, then license characters, and then he has a finalized roster. Which was done in 2015 if I remember the interviews correctly. Now, it doesn't mean Geno was definitely considered either. But it is possible.

 

[Ovaltine]

Outside of base, at least. I mean, he has a Spirit. He was probably brought up but shot down by SE. Unlike with FF, it's hard to say who owns what among SE for SMRPG's specific stuff. We know that DQ and FF have multiple ownerships of different things(Music, Character Designs, etc).

Honestly, I'm more willing to bet that Geno was either 1) shot down by Nintendo and not SE, due to his relative obscurity, or 2) Sakurai wanted to include Geno in some way, but there wasn't enough development time to add him, so he added his and Mallow's spirits. I'm kinda starting to doubt the first, given Banjo and Kazooie are DLC and are both irrelevant characters and from a dead franchise. The second makes more sense, considering how tight the schedule sounded for Ultimate's base roster. His spirit being in the base game, being one of the very few things from SE, makes me think SE wouldn't have minded Sakurai adding Geno. It just wasn't his time. It's also why he got a Mii outfit in 4, I'm pretty sure, because they were moving from Sm4sh to Ultimate's development. There just wasn't room to add Geno to the last game, and unless he's in the Fighter's Pass (highly doubt it) or in future DLC, there may not be room this time either.

Basically, unless Ultimate gets more than just the Fighter's Pass, I think Geno's just gotten unlucky in terms of just barely missing the boat three times (Brawl, Sm4sh, and now Ultimate). He just wasn't a priority enough to be slipped in yet. Maybe with further DLC or Smash 6, he'll have his chance to shine, unless Nintendo decides to revive him and Mallow via other means first.

ETA: Also, found this little nugget of info while looking at references for Mario's house via the Mario wiki:

"The Mario Bros.' House reappears in the opening sequence of Paper Mario: Color Splash, when Princess Peach and Toad come to speak with Mario about the letter they received. Although the exterior is somewhat similar to previous games, the inside is completely different, looking more like the interior in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. It is shown to be on one side of a small river. "

It may well be unintentional, but it's a little bit of food for thought. Subtle SMRPG references from around that time period (2016 being when Color Splash released, meaning it was likely in development for a couple of years, also around when the Super Mario Kun segment reprinted) have been popping up, so I wouldn't call it too crazy to think it was intentional. It's a possibility, and it's a little interesting, even if nothing more beyond that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, I'm more willing to bet that Geno was either 1) shot down by Nintendo and not SE, due to his relative obscurity, or 2) Sakurai wanted to include Geno in some way, but there wasn't enough development time to add him, so he added his and Mallow's spirits. I'm kinda starting to doubt the first, given Banjo and Kazooie are DLC and are both irrelevant characters and from a dead franchise. The second makes more sense, considering how tight the schedule sounded for Ultimate's base roster. His spirit being in the base game, being one of the very few things from SE, makes me think SE wouldn't have minded Sakurai adding Geno. It just wasn't his time. It's also why he got a Mii outfit in 4, I'm pretty sure, because they were moving from Sm4sh to Ultimate's development. There just wasn't room to add Geno to the last game, and unless he's in the Fighter's Pass (highly doubt it) or in future DLC, there may not be room this time either.

Basically, unless Ultimate gets more than just the Fighter's Pass, I think Geno's just gotten unlucky in terms of just barely missing the boat three times (Brawl, Sm4sh, and now Ultimate). He just wasn't a priority enough to be slipped in yet. Maybe with further DLC or Smash 6, he'll have his chance to shine, unless Nintendo decides to revive him and Mallow via other means first.

...Banjo-Kazooie still has merchandise to this day. They're neither dead nor irrelevant. Merchandise is a driving factor of a ton of franchises and keeps them alive. The franchise is absolutely being used, so the whole dead thing is completely false. Irrelevant is technically incorrect as well, as they're being used, making them relevant in media. Besides, Rare Replay(unlike Virtual Console) is a majorly advertised thing. People seem to be under the misconception a franchise is dead if it doesn't get another media work in its debut media. That is not what being a dead franchise is. It needs to be completely unused beyond something like a VC service(which isn't a heavily advertised one and about as notable as the fact you can download its rom. They barely mention it and that's it. What makes Rare Replay unique is it's more than a VC service. It has other relevant games made by Rareware and has a full set of advertisements as well as a very unique banner to make it clear. Banjo and Conker are two of its main mascots. VC never had some kind of mascots. It even got discontinued).

Do see my edit of reasoning why Geno wasn't necessarily considered. That came up before you saw it. Nonetheless, Geno, unlike Banjo & Kazooie, is actually irrelevant(though the franchise isn't dead. On the other hand, SMRPG is not being used at all, nor being heavily advertised and lacks merchandise).

 

[FalconFire93]

I’ve been playing through Mario Maker 2 and since night mode is in it, it’s making me think of all the possible SMRPG inspired levels that I can come up with.

 

[Ovaltine]

...Banjo-Kazooie still has merchandise to this day. They're neither dead nor irrelevant. Merchandise is a driving factor of a ton of franchises and keeps them alive. The franchise is absolutely being used, so the whole dead thing is completely false. Irrelevant is technically incorrect as well, as they're being used, making them relevant in media. Besides, Rare Replay(unlike Virtual Console) is a majorly advertised thing. People seem to be under the misconception a franchise is dead if it doesn't get another media work in its debut media. That is not what being a dead franchise is. It needs to be completely unused beyond something like a VC service(which isn't a heavily advertised one and about as notable as the fact you can download its rom. They barely mention it and that's it. What makes Rare Replay unique is it's more than a VC service. It has other relevant games made by Rareware and has a full set of advertisements as well as a very unique banner to make it clear. Banjo and Conker are two of its main mascots. VC never had some kind of mascots. It even got discontinued).

Do see my edit of reasoning why Geno wasn't necessarily considered. That came up before you saw it. Nonetheless, Geno, unlike Banjo & Kazooie, is actually irrelevant(though the franchise isn't dead. On the other hand, SMRPG is not being used at all, nor being heavily advertised and lacks merchandise).

Fair enough, you're right. I think all of the irrelevance posting against B-K got to my head on how little they mean in terms of the current day. They at least still get things, whereas Geno has a bunch of... nothing beyond the SMK segment, which only exists in Japan.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fair enough, you're right. I think all of the irrelevance posting against B-K got to my head on how little they mean in terms of the current day. They at least still get things, whereas Geno has a bunch of... nothing beyond the SMK segment, which only exists in Japan.

I get why people believe that too. But yeah, it's a misconception of what a dead franchise really is.

Though at least I'd rather a franchise being dead but revivable instead of finished. But eh.

What's SMK mean again?

 

[Ovaltine]

I get why people believe that too. But yeah, it's a misconception of what a dead franchise really is.

Though at least I'd rather a franchise being dead but revivable instead of finished. But eh.

What's SMK mean again?

Super Mario Kun!

Anyhow, that's true. At the very least, B-K can be revived if it's outsourced (as I doubt current day Rare could do them justice now), methinks. SMRPG could also come back one day in some new form (remake, sequel, something else?) if SE is up to playing ball. They're both buried in terms of new games for now, but that could change.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I have been sick all day and could not do a single thing. How is everyone?

Fatmanonice to your first post on this page about negotiations falling through and which characters that could've been?

Might one of them have been Geno? We got the splash screen for his Mii Costume like he was a big deal. Something just made me think about that possibility. I mean, Sakurai could have gone to someone else in Square for Geno before going to Nomura for Cloud.

Just thoughts from a sick man.

I still have my doubts that Geno was ever considered for Smash 4's DLC in any greater of a roll than a costume. There's too much intrigue surrounding Bayonetta to say he even had a shot for that position, and I'll continue to say this until the end of time, Geno getting in before Final Fantasy made no goddamn sense. While I'm willing to budge and say that Geno getting in before Dragon Quest can work well enough, Final Fantasy is just too big of a bridge that needs to be crossed before any other Square Enix characters get in the game. We only really had four spots for newcomers in Smash 4 DLC when you think about it:

-Ryu doesn't really match up with anything and just sort of happened, so I guess his could theoretically be anything, but...
-Cloud was the Square Enix rep that pretty much had to happen first, so Geno didn't have a chance here or before.
-Corrin was a first party promotional pick, so Geno never had a chance there.
-Bayonetta has the aforementioned issues and there may have never properly been a spot for anyone else other than her. It would be his best chance for consideration, but again, there's soooo many questions surrounding the legitimacy of this spot as a fan pick (I think they probably got lucky the more I think about it).

With the plan for Smash Ultimate being developed immediately after and the limited resources Sakurai spoke of regarding DLC, I really just don't think he ever was in the conversation for Smash 4. Ultimate's potentially a whole different ball game though.

I've also been wondering if Sakurai's reference to Geno and Brawl actually might be indicative of a different situation than we've assumed. Brawl's project plan would have been made in 2005. There wasn't really a Geno fan base back then, so he wouldn't have been super on Sakurai's radar in the same way. He just knew the character existed and was potentially interested in him. What if he just didn't realize that Geno was a third party character in his initial ideas surrounding the character, and when he learned/realized that Geno actually belonged to Square Enix he just dropped the idea in an era where third parties in Smash was a much more limited concept. The way he phrased his comment about it "not happening" just left so much open with regards to Geno, but a conception would have happened without having to make sure the rights of the character were secured. It's just an idea that has lingered as an additional possibility to that specific situation I hadn't previously considered.