Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[AugustusB]

Okay guys, to try to break up some monotony, let's try this. What do you think the exact release dates for both the DQ heroes and Banjo Kazooie will be?

I would think The Hero is coming mid July. Banjo and Kazooie, I would love to see towards the end of September or early October with an announcement of the next fighter.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I disagree with this assessment, but then again I never notice when games age poorly.

I dunno, still seems to me like it holds up great.

Truth be told, a lot of the SNES classics have held up really well. I'd say the only thing that's aged poorly about SMRPG is the graphics but it has a unique enough style like Earthbound or Donkey Kong Country that it's still charming, even if Mario looks like he's constantly having Vietnam flashbacks.

 

[Ovaltine]

Truth be told, a lot of the SNES classics have held up really well. I'd say the only thing that's aged poorly about SMRPG is the graphics but it has a unique enough style like Earthbound or Donkey Kong Country that it's still charming, even if Mario looks like he's constantly having Vietnam flashbacks.

The noise I made when I read this bit was almost alien, rofl. I mean, you ain't wrong.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Truth be told, a lot of the SNES classics have held up really well. I'd say the only thing that's aged poorly about SMRPG is the graphics but it has a unique enough style like Earthbound or Donkey Kong Country that it's still charming, even if Mario looks like he's constantly having Vietnam flashbacks.

I'd say the lost forever stuff isn't very good design. The one Frog Coin you need to get via jumping on a Toad near the beginning of the game is super convoluted and already difficult to get. They can easily remove stuff like this and make things a bit more easier to access in comparison. A lot of the side stuff isn't anywhere near as bad. They could just as easily put a Toad there later on that patrols the part or is worried to fix it. A safety net.

Lost Forever stuff is generally a really bad game design(there's a difference between choosing one route full of certain items, and missing a chance because there's no good way to know it).

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

I'd say the lost forever stuff isn't very good design. The one Frog Coin you need to get via jumping on a Toad near the beginning of the game is super convoluted and already difficult to get. They can easily remove stuff like this and make things a bit more easier to access in comparison. A lot of the side stuff isn't anywhere near as bad. They could just as easily put a Toad there later on that patrols the part or is worried to fix it. A safety net.

Lost Forever stuff is generally a really bad game design(there's a difference between choosing one route full of certain items, and missing a chance because there's no good way to know it).

I have a playthrough where i have every frog coin but that one and it haunts me to this day

 

[GoodGrief741]

See, you did this unintentionally but this entire response is a perfect example of something else I've noticed happens in this thread. Certain people here preach love and acceptance and openness for anyone coming into this thread even those that want to **** on Geno because "That's would Geno would do :3". And that's great. But what I have also noticed is responses like this directed at people who happen to be more pro-Geno or what you see as more "echochambery". I'm answering your response in what is to me a non-insulting way and you in turn said

"you really need to get out of this thread."
"That's where you're so blind."
" Suck it up"

Is that really the sort of kindness and acceptance that you're asking other people to practice in this exact thread? Is that really less ****ty than what was said to a certain person recently? I definitely don't think so. You're literally advising me to leave the thread because I don't like certain things. If you're going to hold people to a certain standard then you should have the self-awareness to realize when you're not holding yourself to those standards. I've seen it time and time again that people come into the thread and go on ridiculous rants insulting people yet another individual that's more pro-Geno can step out of line and people really lay into said person and that's apparently totally ok. It feels like a complete double standard.



I think you're still missing my point. The idea that we should be ok with people ****ting on Geno just because he's obscure and supposedly desperately in need of support to the point of being some sort of character speculation whipping boy is messed up. Just because other characters are being trashed doesn't mean we need to be complacent when our character is being trashed just because he hasn't appeared in a game for 20 years.



My question to that is: What happened when certain people who were pro-Geno decided to go and discuss the character and defend him against criticism in the SE thread? Nothing great from what I saw. Did people from the Geno thread regularly post in the Erdrick thread about Geno's chances and why he might be a better choice than Erdrick? Nope. Would it have been tolerated there? Absolutely not. People would have been told it was off-topic. Yet that most definitely did happen here to the point of pages and pages of discussion being just about Erdrick. That's my point.




The thing is there's a very big difference between believing a character has a low chance and repeatedly saying that they're not in and probably never getting in as if it's built on some sort of fact for months and months with that being the overarching tone of conversation. I know people have said that other threads were guilty of it but that ended up being the vast majority of discussion here for weeks on end and it was a bit much.



Honestly this just sounds a lot like trying to thought police and shame other people's ideas with the fear that somehow Geno fans are "going to look bad". Firstly the specific "conspiracy theory" you're referring to (the cinematics being connected) was one that lots of people have stated. Even papagenos mentioned it in a video among other others. It's not only something echochambery people in the thread came up with. What I'm noticing is that some people in this thread are too overly concerned with being potentially perceived as some sort of toxic or embarrassing fanbase over the smallest things, and then go on to try and correct pro-Geno users' perceived toxic or embarrassing behavior. But the thing is that's pretty unnecessary and just ends up feeling overly paternalistic and incredibly condescending.



I know you're being hyperbolic here, but still. There are people who haven't played SMRPG when it came out because they were too young or whatever, but there are lots of people who have played the game, like it, and talk about it. It's not being talked and memed about currently like Persona 5 but that doesn't inherently make it niche nor does that mean everyone outside of the Smash bubble thinks that it's "niche". And the funny thing is when we do explain things to people who just want to come into the thread to "have a conversation" they just end up disregarding it anyway.

Just wanted to say that what I said came out totally wrong. When I said to get out of the thread I meant it in a 'go and see what other threads go through, it's not just us' way, not in a 'maybe it's you who should leave' way. Ambiguous language, so I totally get why you understood that. The other two examples I guess are harsh language and I apologize.

Not going to reply to anything else because I think that would dilute the main point of this post which is a very big apology.

 

[TheHeartbreakKid]

A lot has already been said about the "Literal Who" argument but, if we're really wanting to hammer that idea, only four of the eleven DLC characters so far have been iconic, globally recognized characters across gaming generations with Mewtwo, Ryu (wasn't really highly requested), Cloud (minor cameos on Nintendo platforms before his Smash debut), and Pirhana Plant (a common enemy).

Right, but there's a world of difference between "genre-defining icon, almost synonymous with the medium" like Cloud and Ryu, and Literal Who.

In no universe could Banjo, Bayo or Joker be described as Literal Whos, for example. They're not showstoppers like Ryu or Cloud in terms of gaming iconography and universal recognition, but they're not complete randos either.

 

[Slender]

Here's something to think about:

Do you thing SMRPG would have benefited from an earlier release during the SNES' lifespan in order to allow more people to get their hands on it, at the cost of the game itself possibly being changed due to the lack of the SA-1 chip?

Or was the release at the end of the SNES' lifespan worth the advanced microprocessor used to make SMRPG what it is?

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say the lost forever stuff isn't very good design. The one Frog Coin you need to get via jumping on a Toad near the beginning of the game is super convoluted and already difficult to get. They can easily remove stuff like this and make things a bit more easier to access in comparison. A lot of the side stuff isn't anywhere near as bad. They could just as easily put a Toad there later on that patrols the part or is worried to fix it. A safety net.

Lost Forever stuff is generally a really bad game design(there's a difference between choosing one route full of certain items, and missing a chance because there's no good way to know it).

I heavily agree that Permanent Missable Content is a *****, and one of the worse things that can ruin a game for me. I had a hard time enjoying Tales of Vesperia once i realized a LOT of Sidequests are plot sensitive, which means i will have to go and play the ENTIRE GAME all over again just to get Judith's Alternate Costumes.

Truth be told, a lot of the SNES classics have held up really well. I'd say the only thing that's aged poorly about SMRPG is the graphics but it has a unique enough style like Earthbound or Donkey Kong Country that it's still charming, even if Mario looks like he's constantly having Grinch Leak flashbacks.

Fixed it.

 

[Datboigeno]

Just wanted to say that what I said came out totally wrong. When I said to get out of the thread I meant it in a 'go and see what other threads go through, it's not just us' way, not in a 'maybe it's you who should leave' way. Ambiguous language, so I totally get why you understood that. The other two examples I guess are harsh language and I apologize.

Not going to reply to anything else because I think that would dilute the main point of this post which is a very big apology.

Apology accepted

Right, but there's a world of difference between "genre-defining icon, almost synonymous with the medium" like Cloud and Ryu, and Literal Who.

In no universe could Banjo, Bayo or Joker be described as Literal Whos, for example. They're not showstoppers like Ryu or Cloud in terms of gaming iconography and universal recognition, but they're not complete randos either.

I know that Bayonetta and Persona are currently well-known within the gaming community but if we're talking more mainstream I think they're less mainstream and well-known franchises than the Banjo-Kazooie series was in the late 90s/early 00s.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Here's something to think about:

Do you thing SMRPG would have benefited from an earlier release during the SNES' lifespan in order to allow more people to get their hands on it, at the cost of the game itself possibly being changed due to the lack of the SA-1 chip?

Or was the release at the end of the SNES' lifespan worth the advanced microprocessor used to make SMRPG what it is?

Maybe it would have benefited, saleswise, but I don't think it would have been worth it. Game still sold pretty well, right? And the game is better off with that chip.

 

[ShotoStar 2]

Truth be told, a lot of the SNES classics have held up really well. I'd say the only thing that's aged poorly about SMRPG is the graphics but it has a unique enough style like Earthbound or Donkey Kong Country that it's still charming, even if Mario looks like he's constantly having Grinch Leak flash-forwards.

I heavily agree that Permanent Missable Content is a *****, and one of the worse things that can ruin a game for me. I had a hard time enjoying Tales of Vesperia once i realized a LOT of Sidequests are plot sensitive, which means i will have to go and play the ENTIRE GAME all over again just to get Judith's Alternate Costumes.


Fixed it.

Fixed your fix.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I've been mulling over what to write with the situation going on over the past few days, and it seems like a lot of people have voiced my concerns and ideas and had rational conversations over everything, so I'm going to keep my commentary fairly brief. I dissent a lot in this thread despite still supporting Geno and I suspect that will continue based upon how I operate haha. I've come to understand I just have a genuinely different stance on a lot of issues and ideas, especially when it comes to how I perceive the legacy of Super Mario RPG and Geno himself. But I still support Geno and intend on being a part of the thread even if I might squabble with some of the people around here on things like that and the prevalence of fan requests and so on. Again, if anyone has a more specific issue with me or feels the need to provide some sort of proper feedback on me as I post (or even if you think maybe I'm going too far in some regard), please do PM me. And I am genuinely sorry for any frustrations or pain I've caused in my posting.

In general, I almost always treat character threads as discussion threads first and foremost and hype threads second. I get hype when I think there's genuinely something positive for the character in question, but otherwise, I'm there for conversations and interacting with the users because I enjoy it. I think some people don't agree with that standing and want character threads to be more along the lines of traditional 'hype' threads, and while I think that may be needed sometimes, I also clearly have well documented issues with that approach. I think that has actually been one of the biggest sources of tension and disagreement in the thread overall, and you can trace back some of the more problematic debates to that central misalignment. I think there's plenty of room for both types of people in the thread, and I certainly am also willing to admit I have not been as accommodating as I should have been to those people. It's a balance I also struggle with on a personal level and my intrigue always pushes me toward discussion and speculation as I have mentioned in the past. Theories in particular have been a real issue for me since I'll approach them with the harshest of lenses due to my own experience. So, I'll continue to try to be more accommodating in the future though I can't promise as much progress as others might prefer on that issue.


Anyway, back to something actually super exciting about Geno! Once again, Dragon Quest strangely enough ends up being one of the things to help our chances the most. The part of the Sakurai interview that stood out the most to me wasn't the Banjo Kazooie stuff, but the line about the Dragon Quest heroes traditionally not being allowed to fight alongside each other, but Smash got the exception to make this happen. Suddenly, we not only have all this DQ content in Smash, but we've also got a specific example of Square Enix working more closely with Sakurai to make something impossible happen for the sake of Smash. It puts Square Enix in an unprecedented place of support for Smash and Nintendo all around...And while I'm still not certain about future DLC beyond the Fighter's Pass, I think we got yet another beautiful ray of sunshine for Geno's chances in Smash. Small stuff like those comments push Geno's chances up ever so slightly, and there have been certainly a lot of them in the past year. I really hope that they begin to lead to something, because I felt the same way with Banjo Kazooie as things went along. It takes a while for me to warm up to hype since I need lots of evidence to do so, but it's getting harder for me to ignore certain things that add-up. I'm still waiting for my big breakthrough moment like "Cuphead on Switch" was for Banjo Kazooie... but I'm hopeful... just please no Mii costume with Hero...

 

[Ovaltine]

I've been mulling over what to write with the situation going on over the past few days, and it seems like a lot of people have voiced my concerns and ideas and had rational conversations over everything, so I'm going to keep my commentary fairly brief. I dissent a lot in this thread despite still supporting Geno and I suspect that will continue based upon how I operate haha. I've come to understand I just have a genuinely different stance on a lot of issues and ideas, especially when it comes to how I perceive the legacy of Super Mario RPG and Geno himself. But I still support Geno and intend on being a part of the thread even if I might squabble with some of the people around here on things like that and the prevalence of fan requests and so on. Again, if anyone has a more specific issue with me or feels the need to provide some sort of proper feedback on me as I post (or even if you think maybe I'm going too far in some regard), please do PM me. And I am genuinely sorry for any frustrations or pain I've caused in my posting.

In general, I almost always treat character threads as discussion threads first and foremost and hype threads second. I get hype when I think there's genuinely something positive for the character in question, but otherwise, I'm there for conversations and interacting with the users because I enjoy it. I think some people don't agree with that standing and want character threads to be more along the lines of traditional 'hype' threads, and while I think that may be needed sometimes, I also clearly have well documented issues with that approach. I think that has actually been one of the biggest sources of tension and disagreement in the thread overall, and you can trace back some of the more problematic debates to that central misalignment. I think there's plenty of room for both types of people in the thread, and I certainly am also willing to admit I have not been as accommodating as I should have been to those people. It's a balance I also struggle with on a personal level and my intrigue always pushes me toward discussion and speculation as I have mentioned in the past. Theories in particular have been a real issue for me since I'll approach them with the harshest of lenses due to my own experience. So, I'll continue to try to be more accommodating in the future though I can't promise as much progress as others might prefer on that issue.


Anyway, back to something actually super exciting about Geno! Once again, Dragon Quest strangely enough ends up being one of the things to help our chances the most. The part of the Sakurai interview that stood out the most to me wasn't the Banjo Kazooie stuff, but the line about the Dragon Quest heroes traditionally not being allowed to fight alongside each other, but Smash got the exception to make this happen. Suddenly, we not only have all this DQ content in Smash, but we've also got a specific example of Square Enix working more closely with Sakurai to make something impossible happen for the sake of Smash. It puts Square Enix in an unprecedented place of support for Smash and Nintendo all around...And while I'm still not certain about future DLC beyond the Fighter's Pass, I think we got yet another beautiful ray of sunshine for Geno's chances in Smash. Small stuff like those comments push Geno's chances up ever so slightly, and there have been certainly a lot of them in the past year. I really hope that they begin to lead to something, because I felt the same way with Banjo Kazooie as things went along. It takes a while for me to warm up to hype since I need lots of evidence to do so, but it's getting harder for me to ignore certain things that add-up. I'm still waiting for my big breakthrough moment like "Cuphead on Switch" was for Banjo Kazooie... but I'm hopeful... just please no Mii costume with Hero...

While I do agree that sometimes, it goes a bit far, you're honestly one of my favorite presences in the thread because I feel you keep us grounded. At the very least, you keep me grounded and help me rethink the possibilities of things. I can always appreciate someone like that, even if the truth isn't something that I like to hear. It makes me sad to wake up to what Geno has against him sometimes, even things I don't realize he has against him, but I'd rather be set in reality than living in a fantasy. For that, you and GoodGrief741 are awesome people to have around.

 

[AugustusB]

So I was playing through Classic Mode to finish collecting the fighter spirits and I was thinking "If they got in, I wonder what Geno's Classic mode would be and who would they fight?"
And something kind of hit me. There are six fights with a bonus and a final confrontation with a boss. Now I was thinking in terms of Geno being in the fighter's pass and I could not think of a good one...But then I flipped my perspective to think of Geno as a Bonus DLC fighter and something just clicked.

With Piranha Plant and the Fighter's Pass, that brings us to 6 fighters. 6 FIGHTERS FOR GENO'S CLASSIC ROUTE.

It means nothing and just some fun speculation, but dang...that would be neat.

Also I would personally call his route either "Dreams come true" or "Wishes Granted"

I mean trade Piranha Plant for someone else, but ya know what I am saying.

 

[GoodGrief741]

So I was playing through Classic Mode to finish collecting the fighter spirits and I was thinking "If they got in, I wonder what Geno's Classic mode would be and who would they fight?"
And something kind of hit me. There are six fights with a bonus and a final confrontation with a boss. Now I was thinking in terms of Geno being in the fighter's pass and I could not think of a good one...But then I flipped my perspective to think of Geno as a Bonus DLC fighter and something just clicked.

With Piranha Plant and the Fighter's Pass, that brings us to 6 fighters. 6 FIGHTERS FOR GENO'S CLASSIC ROUTE.

It means nothing and just some fun speculation, but dang...that would be neat.

Also I would personally call his route either "Dreams come true" or "Wishes Granted"

I mean trade Piranha Plant for someone else, but ya know what I am saying.

The DLC characters probably won't be part of other DLC characters' classic routes. You need to be able to play it if you don't own all the DLC.

 

[AugustusB]

The DLC characters probably won't be part of other DLC characters' classic routes. You need to be able to play it if you don't own all the DLC.

That is true. I would say "But before you even unlock characters in Base, you can play as Mario and those fighters, who haven't been unlocked yet, show up in his route." However that makes no sense lol.

Like I said, means nothing, just a funny thought.

ACTUALLY! Lets make this a DREAM COME TRUE route.
,,,,,,, and/or could easily be used instead. Base character fighters that are pretty hype induced over the smash years.

 

[ZelDan]

I heavily agree that Permanent Missable Content is a *****, and one of the worse things that can ruin a game for me. I had a hard time enjoying Tales of Vesperia once i realized a LOT of Sidequests are plot sensitive, which means i will have to go and play the ENTIRE GAME all over again just to get Judith's Alternate Costumes.

I hate permanently missable stuff too, it's a pet peeve of mine. I shouldn't have to look at a gameFAQs guide every 2 seconds while in the middle of a game if I want to complete it, just let me go at my own damn pace. My last playthrough of Final Fantasy IX was soiled because of this, when I missed some weapons for Freya and Steiner and thus both were missing an ability. I also hate Excalibur II and what they want you to do to get it. Truthfully I didn't even bother with it and just made a "get every ability and strongest weapon except for Steiner's because eff that," but as mentioned, still failed even that. >_>

Permanently missing stuff is also one of the reasons I find Golden Sun Dark Dawn a weaker game than the GBA titles.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I kind of want Geno's route to be something on the lines of "Dream Delayed" where you fight characters that people wanted since the N64 days or something like each fight representing a different chapter of SMRPG with Galleom being the final boss. They've gone really esoteric with some of the routes so I'm hoping they'd do that for Geno too.

 

[Wazygoose]

In no universe could Banjo, Bayo or Joker be described as Literal Whos, for example. They're not showstoppers like Ryu or Cloud in terms of gaming iconography and universal recognition, but they're not complete randos either.

Gotta disagree with that specific point, I’d never heard of Bayo or Joker before they got into Smash. And I’d only heard of Banjo because of Smash character requests. If you’re not involved in their scene anyone is a literal who to you. It’s easier to say who has universal recognition (Cloud, Ryu) than it is to say who isn’t obscure.

Also, I don’t know why anyone would doubt Geno right now. His chances were great even before the VGAs and they’ve never had better supporting evidence than right now.

 

[Giga Kaiju]

I want to add on the whole "Who?" thing.

That is SUBJECTIVE.

Some people might have heard of them but others don't.

And also, I have seen this in other places online where they said things like that or play "scapegoat" and throw **** to other characters while shilling another. Only to get a reaction and making fanbases and the character in turn look bad.

ON PURPOSE.

That is awful. I have seen this happen so MANY times and it creates disputes all-around with no sign of getting better. Many characters have being prey to this and it isn't nice even with characters that by no rhyme or reason should be attacked along the fans.

Its a difficult subject and while it's fine to act sensible and down to earth for YOU, it can be off-putting to see.

Hell, it's because of things like these that you see (if you have, if course) memes like "Ho*sMad" when someone is put in their "place". Like for example, there's this meme of someone being mad over 's inclusion in Twitter and people made a video about it and shared over social media. Multiple comments being "Ho*sMad".

It's regrettable but there's no much you can do when online communities as a whole are, well, not good.

.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Gotta disagree with that specific point, I’d never heard of Bayo or Joker before they got into Smash. And I’d only heard of Banjo because of Smash character requests. If you’re not involved in their scene anyone is a literal who to you. It’s easier to say who has universal recognition (Cloud, Ryu) than it is to say who isn’t obscure.

Also, I don’t know why anyone would doubt Geno right now. His chances were great even before the VGAs and they’ve never had better supporting evidence than right now.

That's anecdotal evidence. While Bayo, being from a niche and at that point commercially unsuccessful series, can be excused... Joker is the protagonist of a hugely successful and critically acclaimed RPG that was considered one of the best games of 2017 and one of the finest RPGs of all time, and Banjo is the star of a seminal and absolutely classic series of games that defined the 3D platformer and the N64 era. If you didn't know about them you're very much in the minority.

I guarantee you that you can go ask people on the street about Ryu and Cloud and will get a lot of negative responses. When you move within the world of gaming, though, that's where most people will recognize them.

 

[owjies]

What if Geno's Classic route was based on the Boss fights from SMRPG? You could have Cloud or Ike as Mack, Link as Bowyer, Snake as Punchinello, Greninja as Johnny Jones, Wario as Booster, and the Koopa Kids or some other horde battle for the Axem Rangers. A giant Dedede could be Smithy I guess. Smash has a woeful lack of beards it seems. The boss would probably be Giga Bowser, but I could see the Master Hand Duo as well.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I think Persona 5 is actually a pretty great modern counterpart to Super Mario RPG in a lot of ways the more I think about it. They're both niche JRPGs that have actually managed to breakout into some greater mainstream success with colorful casts, out-****ing-standing music, and mechanics that attract people beyond the basic RPG formula. Both of these games absolutely own their styles too and you don't really see any contemporaries for either of them in the same style.

And when I say niche, I'm talking about two games that have both sold over 2 million copies. Niche doesn't mean "irrelevant" or "too limited" or whatever you may be assuming when I say that, I'm talking about the fact it appeals to a specific subset of people above all else and caters to their desires. They just both happen to be games that manage to attract a greater audience through what they bring to the table and overall quality.

Super Mario RPG just represents what happens when you don't capitalize upon the success of that kind of RPG though. Atlus has already shown us how dedicated they are to the Persona brand and particularly the cast from Persona 5 using Joker as the main face of the franchise alongside Morganna as the new mascot. Super Mario RPG and it's world, style, and characters all fell victim to the unfortunate business of Square's falling out with Nintendo. There's a reason I would argue Joker is more recognizable than Geno these days, and it's because Atlus has been quick to push his face on to everything they can and he's just incredibly recent and fresh in people's minds. Super Mario RPG, and especially its unique characters like Mallow and Geno who didn't appear on the box or the game cart, just didn't get that kind of advertising push that would have made it a more generally recognizable brand.

Joker's popularity is much more variable in the moment since his legacy is being established as we speak, and Persona 5 Royal and Persona 5 Scramble only add to that. People's ability to recognizable on a wider scale is much more stagnant because his legacy is mostly solidified since he's not been featured in anything new and he doesn't have recency bias on his side. That said, the fact he's even in a conversation alongside Joker definitely should serve as a sense of pride that the Smash community has continued to put his name out there and likely propel him to greater heights than he would have ever been otherwise.

 

[GoodGrief741]

If either Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi had continued the SMRPG name, instead of being where it's at now it would be seen as the beginning of one of those long running franchises. I mean, I see it that way, but I get the connection not necessarily being made given the different titles.

I get that both of those series are too different and definitely merit the name change, but it is something to ponder.

 

[StormC]

I think Persona 5 is actually a pretty great modern counterpart to Super Mario RPG in a lot of ways the more I think about it. They're both niche JRPGs that have actually managed to breakout into some greater mainstream success with colorful casts, out-****ing-standing music, and mechanics that attract people beyond the basic RPG formula. Both of these games absolutely own their styles too and you don't really see any contemporaries for either of them in the same style.

Completely irrelevant and unimportant, but the battle menu of Persona 5 always reminded me of SMRPG, the way commands are mapped to buttons:

Spoiler

I like to think if Geno got in, the meme would be obvious.

 

[6eyondthegrave]

Here's something to think about:

Do you thing SMRPG would have benefited from an earlier release during the SNES' lifespan in order to allow more people to get their hands on it, at the cost of the game itself possibly being changed due to the lack of the SA-1 chip?

Or was the release at the end of the SNES' lifespan worth the advanced microprocessor used to make SMRPG what it is?

Yes, an early release of RPG would have skyrocketed the popularity and a European release. Most people don’t know Mario RPG because it came out at the end of SNES cycle when the N64 was taking all the deserved attention.

 

[Wazygoose]

That's anecdotal evidence. While Bayo, being from a niche and at that point commercially unsuccessful series, can be excused... Joker is the protagonist of a hugely successful and critically acclaimed RPG that was considered one of the best games of 2017 and one of the finest RPGs of all time, and Banjo is the star of a seminal and absolutely classic series of games that defined the 3D platformer and the N64 era. If you didn't know about them you're very much in the minority.

I guarantee you that you can go ask people on the street about Ryu and Cloud and will get a lot of negative responses. When you move within the world of gaming, though, that's where most people will recognize them.

I don’t think we disagree on anything except that Banjo is a seminal series that defined the 3D platformer and N64 era. We’re both saying that unless you run in that sphere, just about any character or game is obscure to you.

If I had to think about it, really the only worldwide recognizable characters would be Mario and PacMan.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don’t think we disagree on anything except that Banjo is a seminal series that defined the 3D platformer and N64 era. We’re both saying that unless you run in that sphere, just about any character or game is obscure to you.

If I had to think about it, really the only worldwide recognizable characters would be Mario and PacMan.

Then I don't understand what your point was.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don’t think we disagree on anything except that Banjo is a seminal series that defined the 3D platformer and N64 era. We’re both saying that unless you run in that sphere, just about any character or game is obscure to you.

If I had to think about it, really the only worldwide recognizable characters would be Mario and PacMan.

I'd throw Pikachu in there too but, yeah, those are pretty much the only characters that virtually everyone knows around the world. From there it's definitely varying degrees of recognition, from known by just about anyone who has ever picked up a game controller like Luigi and Sonic to super niche and most people wouldn't have a clue who they were if it wasn't for Smash like Corrin and Game and Watch.

 

[EarlTamm]

You know, I wonder how certain things would be adapted if SMRPG were to be remade? I know people were pretty upset when the M&L games made many npc and enemies the generic modern versions. I would hope the toads would keep the variety they had in SMRPG, though I would not be against the chancellor being changed to Toadsworth or the whole grandma Peach disguise being explained by Super Crown. A mix of old and new would be nice.

 

[Megadoomer]

The DLC characters probably won't be part of other DLC characters' classic routes. You need to be able to play it if you don't own all the DLC.

The characters still have data in the game even if they haven't been unlocked or bought. The Spirit Battles that come with the DLC characters still show up on the main Spirit Board (which, for the Persona characters, generally involves Mementos as a stage, and one of the battles involves Joker), and you can still play against them in online matches or use their amiibo even if you haven't bought the character.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Hell, it's because of things like these that you see (if you have, if course) memes like "Ho*sMad" when someone is put in their "place". Like for example, there's this meme of someone being mad over 's inclusion in Twitter and people made a video about it and shared over social media. Multiple comments being "Ho*sMad".

It's regrettable but there's no much you can do when online communities as a whole are, well, not good.

.

Hot take: "Hoes Mad" is the worst meme to ever come out of Smash speculation. It's the opposite of funny and basically amounts to "THIS PERSON DOESN'T LIKE THE THINGS I LIKE LOL ISN'T THAT HILARIOUS???" It's super annoying, and it's honestly soured my opinion of the so-called "Dragon Quest Defense Force" a ton.

inb4 "HOES MAD"

 

[GrungeMan]

This is a sincere question, as I have little to no experience with gaming culture and other game communities:

What reputation does the smash community have, both good and bad?

And to stay on topic within the thread:

Does the Geno fan subpopulation within the community have a reputation of sorts?

I ask as a guy who just plays smash and wants Geno haha. I frequented tournaments all around southern and central FL from like 2008-2012 and somehow managed to stay rather insulated from smash culture since I went with like 3-4 of my best friends to each tournament and just hung out with them.

I do remember liking almost everyone I met in that time though, save for the rare awkward player. In fact, my crew played MVD's crew for like almost two years... way before MVD was ever MVD. Fun group of guys.

I can't say what I experienced in those four years trying to play at the competitive level maps onto so much of the crazy toxic behavior I see in various comment sections today... Maybe just greater use of technology/social media made things worse?! Or maybe it's always been rather toxic and I was fortunate not to notice.

 

[Penguinbowler]

This is a sincere question, as I have little to no experience with gaming culture and other game communities:

What reputation does the smash community have, both good and bad?

And to stay on topic within the thread:

Does the Geno fan subpopulation within the community have a reputation of sorts?

I ask as a guy who just plays smash and wants Geno haha. I frequented tournaments all around southern and central FL from like 2008-2012 and somehow managed to stay rather insulated from smash culture since I went with like 3-4 of my best friends to each tournament and just hung out with them.

I do remember liking almost everyone I met in that time though, save for the rare awkward player. In fact, my crew played MVD's crew for like almost two years... way before MVD was ever MVD. Fun group of guys.

I can't say what I experienced in those four years trying to play at the competitive level maps onto so much of the crazy toxic behavior I see in various comment sections today... Maybe just greater use of technology/social media made things worse?! Or maybe it's always been rather toxic and I was fortunate not to notice.

As a whole the Smash community has a bit of a negative reputation about it, mostly because of the fact Smash bros has a massive casual competitive divide with the fans of both side regularly bashing the other, with Melee elitism being one of the biggest examples of this. Oh and we get the same stigma as Magic the Gathering and Yu-gi-oh because some people who show up to tournaments smell awful. This is actually enough of a problem some venues sell soap and have rules that punish people for smelling bad.

 

[Datboigeno]

This is a sincere question, as I have little to no experience with gaming culture and other game communities:

What reputation does the smash community have, both good and bad?

And to stay on topic within the thread:

Does the Geno fan subpopulation within the community have a reputation of sorts?

I ask as a guy who just plays smash and wants Geno haha. I frequented tournaments all around southern and central FL from like 2008-2012 and somehow managed to stay rather insulated from smash culture since I went with like 3-4 of my best friends to each tournament and just hung out with them.

I do remember liking almost everyone I met in that time though, save for the rare awkward player. In fact, my crew played MVD's crew for like almost two years... way before MVD was ever MVD. Fun group of guys.

I can't say what I experienced in those four years trying to play at the competitive level maps onto so much of the crazy toxic behavior I see in various comment sections today... Maybe just greater use of technology/social media made things worse?! Or maybe it's always been rather toxic and I was fortunate not to notice.

As far as Geno fandom goes from what I’ve seen we don’t have an especially bad reputation like certain fan bases. In terms of toxicity I’ve seen more said about Waluigi and Ashley fans historically. Steve fans have definitely shot up there though within SSBU speculation because of their connection to ****posting. I see more people ****ting on us for wanting Geno in and of itself because people see him as irrelevant and all those other things used against characters like K. Rool and Banjo in the past. Arguably to a greater degree in terms of irrelevancy. So therefore we’re seen as desperate and delusional for hoping that he’ll get in someday.

From what I have seen over the past several years I think the tribalism and toxicity over wanting certain characters and ****ting on characters that aren’t the ones you want has gotten way more extreme. I think social media and memes definitely has a big part of it. And a big part of that I believe has to do with the fact that campaigning (more relentless spamming than anything) for specific characters in the past has been validated by game studios. Business take social media into much stronger consideration than they do random discussion boards and I think that’s engendered a very bandwagon-y/dog eat dog mentality within fandoms.

 

[GrungeMan]

Oh and we get the same stigma as Magic the Gathering and Yu-gi-oh because some people who show up to tournaments smell awful. This is actually enough of a problem some venues sell soap and have rules that punish people for smelling bad.

Now that you mentioned it, I genuinely hated that about tournaments. We had to regularly go outside for the 500+ player tournaments.

I thought that was more or less a young male problem (although why anyone would have poor personal hygiene in general baffles me) that would be typical of any gaming scene, but I guess not. That's disheartening to learn

 

[EarlTamm]

Now that you mentioned it, I genuinely hated that about tournaments. We had to regularly go outside for the 500+ player tournaments.

I thought that was more or less a young male problem (although why anyone would have poor personal hygiene in general baffles me) that would be typical of any gaming scene, but I guess not. That's disheartening to learn

Yeah, when Melee was revealed not to be out at Evo this year, there was many jokes about it being because of the smell of the Melee players.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Not much to talk about rumor wise right now (only major thing is that King Zell among others insist that the big Nintendo/Microsoft project is still coming) so I decided to go back and read some older things.

https://nintendoeverything.com/smash-bros-masahiro-sakurai-no-goku-ballot/

Some interesting notes:

-Talks about how Bayonetta was the first Ballot pick, not Cloud. As he said back in 2015, she was the "winner" because she was most realizable. Talks about how there were picks above her that they weren't able to negotiate in time.

-The first initial plan for Smash Ultimate was concluded coincidentally the same day as the last Smash 4 Direct in late 2015.

-DLC was not part of the original Smash Ultimate plan and was kind of dropped on the developers sometime before the game was first teased in 2018.

-The Ballot was used very heavily in the development of Smash Ultimate (goes without saying).

It's an interesting take because it makes me wonder who they failed to negotiate for Smash 4 and what the timeline of everything is. Joker, Hero, and Banjo were supposedly all in development around Christmas last year so when did #4 and 5 start? If everything here is true, it raises more questions about the Vifam figure because he was using it for Smash Ultimate even before DLC was decided so what were his plans for it?

 

[GrungeMan]

As far as Geno fandom goes from what I’ve seen we don’t have an especially bad reputation like certain fan bases. In terms of toxicity I’ve seen more said about Waluigi and Ashley fans historically. Steve fans have definitely shot up there though within SSBU speculation because of their connection to ****posting. I see more people ****ting on us for wanting Geno in and of itself because people see him as irrelevant and all those other things used against characters like K. Rool and Banjo in the past. Arguably to a greater degree in terms of irrelevancy. So therefore we’re seen as desperate and delusional for hoping that he’ll get in someday.

From what I have seen over the past several years I think the tribalism and toxicity over wanting certain characters and ****ting on characters that aren’t the ones you want has gotten way more extreme. I think social media and memes definitely has a big part of it. And a big part of that I believe has to do with the fact that campaigning (more relentless spamming than anything) for specific characters in the past has been validated by game studios. Business take social media into much stronger consideration than they do random discussion boards and I think that’s engendered a very bandwagon-y/dog eat dog mentality within fandoms.

Not to take a reductionist view, but I feel like age is a primary factor in explaining the bridges that divide the community and that fan certain flames during character speculation.

As an outsider looking in, when I read about large sub-groups of players that are adamantly against K. Rool, Banjo, and Geno, yet support Steve? one of my immediate thoughts is that these must be younger players.

Maybe that sounds ageist to assume. I'm 30, so I obviously still identify as being young, but it seems like in gaming, and smash specifically, a 15 yr old. and a 30 yr. old are going to have wildly different childhood memories for games and possibly wildly different character requests.

Also, the disrespect and cannibalism of the smash fan base I see online kind of reminds me of the maturity to be expected of a high schooler, so that doesn't help my image of the community nowadays.

However, if the majority of toxicity is actually driven by players in their late twenties and older, then I pray for humanity. Haha At some point you reach an age where you can still be passionate, but wayyyy more chill about such things as character inclusions and speculation. It's just a game. Then again, online etiquette seems to be lacking in all fandoms for all ages, so who knows really. I just target age specifically because smash is a 20 yr. old Nintendo game with a fanbase that ranges from toddler to people in their 40s for the most part.

That age range is bound to lead to emergent cultural differences in the community.