Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[MattX20]

Probably late to the party but the recent Sakurai article in Famitsu is encouraging. Some of the highlights:

-Basically agreed that Hero and Banjo were super hard to get in theory but both companies were cooperative when it was seen that Sakurai and Nintendo wanted them.

-"Eight" was added as one of Hero's Alts basically because of Western demand.

-Sakurai recognizing the longevity of Banjo requests and how they went back to the N64 days.

-Apparently the Dragon Quest Heros aren't supposed to appear with each other in games, let alone fight each other. Sakurai somehow managed to negotiate this to please fans and break what's essentially a 30 year rule for the series.

All in all, a good read and piles on the evidence that if Sakurai wants something, he'll probably get it and his main motivator for adding things is usually fan demand.

Hmm...if the Geno Mii Fighter costume doesn't return when the inevitable video shows up detailing when the DQ heroes release, then I think our chances may be stronger than ever.

 

[6eyondthegrave]

Hmm...if the Geno Mii Fighter costume doesn't return when the inevitable video shows up detailing when the DQ heroes release, then I think our chances may be stronger than ever.

Yeah I agree, that's why I'm so interested in the next smash "direct" that shows details on the Hero just because I want to see if Geno is a Mii costume or not. If he's a mii costume, honestly its over and I have to wait for the next game for his official inclusion or wait for the modding community to add him into Ultimate.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

Hmm...if the Geno Mii Fighter costume doesn't return when the inevitable video shows up detailing when the DQ heroes release, then I think our chances may be stronger than ever.

It's so hard for me to gauge the whole mii costume situation.

On one hand, I think we'd all prefer the Geno costume to not be included upon the release of Hero, as that'd throw up a pretty obvious red flag that he's in the works.

On the other hand, I can see them porting it over to not raise any suspicion and have it act as a "hold over" until the real thing comes. This way, they wouldn't be tipping their hand for the future. I don't use miis so correct me if I'm wrong, but they did bring back old mii costumes already for characters that were made playable for Ultimate (Isabelle, K. Rool, etc.) if memory serves. It's not ideal for the costume to come back, but it wouldn't be damning if it happened. It kind of even makes more sense to do it this way if they want to keep things secret.

The one thing that WOULD be a killer for me would be if they decided to update the costume in any way or make it a full body costume with a mask or something.

 

[xpnc]

I've been looking after my brother's dog and playing through Okami

Your brother's dog is Amaterasu? That's pretty rad

On a Geno-related note that Sakurai column has me feeling fantastic for our chances.

 

[Deleted member]

Your brother's dog is Amaterasu? That's pretty rad

On a Geno-related note that Sakurai column has me feeling fantastic for our chances.

Same.

It seems that Sakurai is trying to add picks to the Pass who are both pretty popular, interesting or demanded and also loved from his part.

This could make characters like Geno or Crash possible at the moment.

 

[Ovaltine]

Same.

It seems that Sakurai is trying to add picks to the Pass who are both pretty popular, interesting or demanded and also loved from his part.

This could make characters like Geno or Crash possible at the moment.

I'll be smiling like a stupid doofus if Crash gets in, my man. You deserve him. I love Crash myself, but I doubt I have as much of an attachment to him as you do. He's probably more to you like Banjo and Kazooie are to me.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll be smiling like a stupid doofus if Crash gets in, my man. You deserve him. I love Crash myself, but I doubt I have as much of an attachment to him as you do. He's probably more to you like Banjo and Kazooie are to me.

Heh, basically that.

He has been my most wanted alongside Eight, K.Rool and Ridley during the past years.

Geno would also seem cool to me as someone who loved SMRPG on the SNES Classic.

 

[Fatmanonice]

A lot has already been said about the "Literal Who" argument but, if we're really wanting to hammer that idea, only four of the eleven DLC characters so far have been iconic, globally recognized characters across gaming generations with Mewtwo, Ryu (wasn't really highly requested), Cloud (minor cameos on Nintendo platforms before his Smash debut), and Pirhana Plant (a common enemy).

 

[LunarDistortion]

I'm still full-stop supporting this guy. I've been following spec in some way since Brawl and this is the last big character we need to truly make things feel fully "Ultimate" for me.

We got Banjo-Kazooie, King K. Rool, Mega Man, Mewtwo, and Ridley. That's already a huge amount of old school picks put in just to please fans. I think we'll get our spotlight soon.

 

[xpnc]

I'm still full-stop supporting this guy. I've been following spec in some way since Brawl and this is the last big character we need to truly make things feel fully "Ultimate" for me.

We got Banjo-Kazooie, King K. Rool, Mega Man, Mewtwo, and Ridley. That's already a huge amount of old school picks put in just to please fans. I think we'll get our spotlight soon.

There's a definite air of hopefulness around here I think

 

[JarBear]

Based on the recent column from Sakurai, there can be hope.

 

[valkiriforce]

Can I share this again? It's such a good watch:

I've been a Geno supporter since 2006, and although I can't say I was focused on the Smash scene for all this time, it's been a wild ride for as long as it's been with all of these highly requested characters getting confirmed left and right. I hope if Geno does make it in that other people who had no idea about him or even disliked him will find him fun to play as.

 

[Datboigeno]

So lots of people here have given their views on the state of things in the thread so here’s mine:

First off I want to address the idea people keep bringing up that the thread is some echo chamber where people are delusionally positive about Geno’s chances and that people here are convinced he’s some sort of A-list big name video game character. I don’t really know how people could get that if they actually spent much time here. From what i have seen people here are very aware of the fact that Geno is a party member from a game that came out in the mid 90s that hasn’t had a major appearance since then. That said the narrative that SMRPG is a super niche title that no one really knows outside of Smash speculation is just blatantly false. I also don’t really agree with the rationale that because he’s not Master Chief or Crash we have to be other people’s punching bags for the sake of not losing out on potential fans.

I’ve said this next thing before more or less but it’s been hard to articulate exactly what I mean: As someone who visits this thread often it has felt like in recent months that there’s been an over correction of sorts to the idea that the thread is an echo chamber to where people are then really critical about Geno and his chances to the point of saying he’s absolutely not in or will derail conversation to talk about other characters. The overall conversation in the thread then adopts a very pessimistic and negative tone to the point that people are driven away because it gets to be too much. It feels contradictory to be in a character support thread where people don’t actually feel that supportive. But then when people bring this up they are accused of trying to make the thread an echochamber and get talked down to. It can be very frustrating to see it happen repeatedly and it almost feels like people trying to unsolicitedly mediate other people’s hopes and expectations in some overly paternalistic way. I think that is why eventually tempers boil over and people do speak out because it just gets to be too much.

This most recent situation also isn’t the first time someone has come into the thread to let us all know how much they don’t like Geno while spouting off a bunch of blatantly untrue things as facts. They then get defensive and say they were “just trying to have a conversation” when it’s obvious that’s not what was happening, and try to imply we’re closed off to different viewpoints because we didn’t consider “His design is bad and he’s not an important character in SMRPG” to be some galaxybrain take. It’s just such a weird disengenuous thing to have happen repeatedly, and we somehow have to be cool with it.

I very much agree that people shouldn’t be attacked just for being skeptical about the character. But I also don’t really like the narrative that if we’re overall positive about Geno in terms of being a cool character with decent chances to get into smash while also greeting people who come into the thread to basically **** on Geno with anything less than a smile and a fruit basket we’re somehow toxic fans who are giving the Geno fandom a bad name.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don’t really know how people could get that if they actually spent much time here.

From the creators of 'people coming into the thread' comes 'maybe you're not actually reading the thread'.

I don't think you meant it that way, but that's how it came off.

I also don’t really agree with the rationale that because he’s not Master Chief or Crash we have to be other people’s punching bags for the sake of not losing out in potential fans.

Reminder: Crash and Master Chief have also been punching bags up until very recently. The idea of guns, western characters and Microsoft characters was a nigh impossibility.

will derail conversation to talk about other characters.

Can you name an example of that? The only recent incident I can recall is Mallow, and I wouldn't call that derailing the thread.

people are driven away because it gets to be too much

It's natural that people leave the thread if they feel hopeless. That's what happens in every thread. Eventually when a character is disconfirmed or near disconfirmed people stop seeing the point in supporting. There's nothing wrong with that.

It feels contradictory to be in a character support thread where people don’t actually feel that supportive

You keep conflating support with thinking a character has a chance. They're not the same.

I think that is why eventually tempers boil over and people do speak out because it just gets to be too much.

That's a good explanation and I agree that's what happens, but it still isn't an excuse.

This most recent situation also isn’t the first time someone has come into the thread to let us all know how much they don’t like Geno while spouting off a bunch of blatantly untrue things as facts. They then get defensive and say they were “just trying to have a conversation” when it’s obvious that’s not what was happening, and try to imply we’re closed off to different viewpoints because we didn’t consider “His design is bad and he’s not an important character in SMRPG” to be some galaxybrain take. It’s just such a weird thing to have happen repeatedly, and we somehow have to be cool with it.

The thing is, what you took as "obviously not someone trying to have a conversation" other people read differently. And in fact the author of that post reacted as if they were, with offense. Maybe their forum etiquette wasn't up to snuff, but intention can be easily misinterpreted on the internet.

Also, and this shouldn't be news to anyone: "Geno isn't an important character and SMRPG is a niche game" is what most of the internet thinks. Even if it seems trite or cliche to us, it's still our number one priority and absolutely in our best interests to combat and debate that logic. Attack the argument, not the person, because that way you only win in the eyes of the people that already agree with you.

 

[owjies]

So lots of people here have given their views on the state of things in the thread so here’s mine:

First off I want to address the idea people keep bringing up that the thread is some echo chamber where people are delusionally positive about Geno’s chances and that people here are convinced he’s some sort of A-list big name video game character. I don’t really know how people could get that if they actually spent much time here. From what i have seen people here are very aware of the fact that Geno is a party member from a game that came out in the mid 90s that hasn’t had a major appearance since then. That said the narrative that SMRPG is a super niche title that no one really knows outside of Smash speculation is just blatantly false. I also don’t really agree with the rationale that because he’s not Master Chief or Crash we have to be other people’s punching bags for the sake of not losing out in potential fans.

I’ve said this next thing before more or less but it’s been hard to articulate exactly what I mean: As someone who visits this thread often it has felt like in recent months that there’s been an over correction of sorts to the idea that the thread is an echo chamber to where people are then really critical about Geno and his chances to the point of saying he’s absolutely not in or will derail conversation to talk about other characters. The overall conversation in the thread then adopts a very pessimistic and negative tone to the point that people are driven away because it gets to be too much. It feels contradictory to be in a character support thread where people don’t actually feel that supportive. But then when people bring this up they are accused of trying to make the thread an echochamber and get talked down to. It can be very frustrating to see it happen repeatedly and it almost feels like people trying to unsolicitedly mediate other people’s hopes and expectations in some overly paternalistic way. I think that is why eventually tempers boil over and people do speak out because it just gets to be too much.

This most recent situation also isn’t the first time someone has come into the thread to let us all know how much they don’t like Geno while spouting off a bunch of blatantly untrue things as facts. They then get defensive and say they were “just trying to have a conversation” when it’s obvious that’s not what was happening, and try to imply we’re closed off to different viewpoints because we didn’t consider “His design is bad and he’s not an important character in SMRPG” to be some galaxybrain take. It’s just such a weird thing to have happen repeatedly, and we somehow have to be cool with it.

I very much agree that people shouldn’t be attacked just for being skeptical about the character. But I also don’t really like the narrative that if we’re overall positive about Geno in terms of being a cool character with decent chances to get into smash while also greeting people who come into the thread to basically **** on Geno with anything less than a smile and a fruit basket we’re somehow toxic fans who are giving the Geno fandom a bad name.

These are all fair points. I agree that we shouldn’t be punching bags when defending Geno, and I also agree that we shouldn’t swing the pendulum too far to the pragmatic side either. It’s a balancing act. Like I mentioned before, there’s a fine line between a firm response and an emotional one. Some of those posts yesterday frustrated me too, but at the same time we can be confident in Geno’s worthiness for Smash. Sakurai put that argument to rest in 2015 when he said, “Geno was actually a character I wanted to include as a fighter. He has a gun for an arm, and just seems like he'd fit absolutely perfectly into Smash.” Geno’s Smash journey has been a complicated one, and I’m not sure why he hasn’t made it yet. That said, I also feel strongly that our voices are being heard.

Sometimes trolls are just gonna troll. Their goal is to drag us down to their level. But, there may be that chance where we can impart even a small point of understanding. There are plenty of popular characters that I have little attachment to, but I also recognize that fans care about these characters for the same reasons that I care about Geno. If someone’s goal is clearly negative, they’re wasting everyone’s time anyway, there’s no point in taking their bait.

I agree with you that we do need to be careful about being too pessimistic. I understand that that over-the-top optimism can make the thread feel like an echo chamber, and the thread has felt that way at times for me. That said, focusing on why Geno’s chances are slim is a real downer sometimes too. Sustained passion and energy is what has kept Geno’s chances alive over the past ten years. Again, I think it’s a balancing act. We should have a range of opinions and perspectives and we can respectfully disagree. Ultimately, we’re all in this together.

 

[Deleted member]

I mostly post here because I support Geno.

Maybe not as much as Crash of Eight of course, but I loved the character I saw when I played through SMRPG during the Christmas I got a SNES Classic. He just seems to be someone with a cool moveset and music potential.


I do apologize if I tend to derail the topics on the thread, but if I didn’t want Geno at all I would likely be as absent here as in the Bandana Waddle Dee or Bubsy threads.

 

[UberPyro64]

I'm just going to keep predicting Jill (or Leon) and Doom Slayer, with Geno as a potential final bonus fighter.

 

[Datboigeno]

From the creators of 'people coming into the thread' comes 'maybe you're not actually reading the thread'.

I don't think you meant it that way, but that's how it came off.

Yeah you know what I would say that. Because I don't think anyone here has ever gone around claiming that Geno is an A-lister and I don't think that people here are as delusionally positive as people are implying. People are projecting an awful lot onto the thread that to me isn't actually there.

Reminder: Crash and Master Chief have also been punching bags up until very recently. The idea of guns, western characters and Microsoft characters was a nigh impossibility.

This has nothing to do with guns or western characters. I'm speaking to the idea that because he's not an A-list current "mainstream" character people just need to be okay with people coming in and trashing him or presenting completely false information or very subjective opinions as fact.

Can you name an example of that? The only recent incident I can recall is Mallow, and I wouldn't call that derailing the thread.

Definitely Erdrick/DQ. For a solid 2 months there would be hours and hours of Erdrick discussion with people having to redirect the conversation back to Geno even when there was a dedicated DQ thread.

It's natural that people leave the thread if they feel hopeless. That's what happens in every thread. Eventually when a character is disconfirmed or near disconfirmed people stop seeing the point in supporting. There's nothing wrong with that.

There's a difference between people leaving a thread because a character has been deconfirmed in their eyes and people leaving a thread under no uncertain terms because of the unrelenting negativity and pessimism coming from a few very vocal people. I have literally had DMs with people who have stated they were going to quit being on the thread because of it.

You keep conflating support with thinking a character has a chance. They're not the same.

If someone is shooting down other people's positive theories or ideas regarding a character then that doesn't seem very supportive does it?

That's a good explanation and I agree that's what happens, but it still isn't an excuse.

Did I imply it was an excuse? Don't put words in my mouth, thanks.

The thing is, what you took as "obviously not someone trying to have a conversation" other people read differently. And in fact the author of that post reacted as if they were, with offense. Maybe their forum etiquette wasn't up to snuff, but intention can be easily misinterpreted on the internet.

Said author's offense was very transparently disingenuous with regards to actually having a thoughtful conversation. You can go back and see that in their responses. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Also, and this shouldn't be news to anyone: "Geno isn't an important character and SMRPG is a niche game" is what most of the internet thinks. Even if it seems trite or cliche to us, it's still our number one priority and absolutely in our best interests to combat and debate that logic. Attack the argument, not the person, because that way you only win in the eyes of the people that already agree with you.

Yeah you're twisting what I said. I was specifically referring to the author saying Geno isn't an important character in SMRPG. That's false. As far as SMRPG being a "niche game" that's wrong. If you really want to go into the same back and forth about sales and re-releases and whatnot we can but does the thread really need that for the twentieth time? Being an old game isn't the same thing as being a niche game. I think that's honestly the biggest issue when people discuss Geno and SMRPG.

 

[Deleted member]

Heh, basically that.

He has been my most wanted alongside Eight, K.Rool and Ridley during the past years.

Geno would also seem cool to me as someone who loved SMRPG on the SNES Classic.

Crash is my most wanted too! Along with Geno of course, as well as Shantae.

 

[ForsakenM]

What the hell happened to the dedication in this thread?

Why are we being so weepy over somebody who put themselves into a situation like this?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that we should accepting of others who don't know about Geno or why we support him. That is fine, people have come in and been like 'I don't get why you support Geno. Please enlighten me!' or they remember Geno vaguely and are joining to have their passion reignited. Anything like that is fine.

What just happened was nothing like that. It was someone being flippant as all hell about Geno because they don't support the character and they don't plan to. They came in just to screw with us and be a pest, so we didn't take it lying down, and now they are trying to act all startled like they did nothing offensive or worthy of such a thing and THEY are the one being attacked. It's a common stupid tactic: come in and piss off everyone and when they turn on you and let you have it, play the victim.

Huge-ass post that speaks the troof!

I knew you would get to this before I did, hell I was waiting for it. Hell yeah!

Everyone is over here acting like 'Let's not be mean to one another, we have to be accepting or people will label the whole fandom!' while people just hop in and talk mad **** about Geno. They don't care and aren't going to care. When people come in and ask questions about why we support him, we answer them. When people come in and are nice, we are nice.

But I'm not about to take flak from someone who obviously wants to start something and frankly is unintelligent on the topic at hand.

 

[N3ON]

All I'll say is that if you chastise people who raise different perspectives, even ill-informed ones, or push others out of the thread for not conforming to the proper standards of "Geno support", you're kicking down pillars that might otherwise support you if and when the roof comes crashing down.

Due to people unfortunately but consistently associating a character with its fanbase, any less than desirable behaviour that emanates from the support camp is ultimately going to sour opinion of the character. I mean I'm ecstatic Banjo got in, but his thread gradually filled up with a very exclusionary sentiment that acted as if there was only a single slot left, and basically only one correct choice for the slot. I remember they were trying to tear down Erdrick as if those two infringed on each other in any way and/or there wasn't room for both.

Someone I spoke to said something to the effect of, "I understand why people want Banjo, but it's hard to support him with what his fanbase is becoming". Ultimately, he's lucky that he got in, but by the end his fans were doing themselves no favours, creating their own little island.

I like Geno. I mean he's not really on my list, but I'd be pleased to see him. He's a cool character, I love his game, and lord knows the fanbase has gone above and beyond what any other would for a character in his position. But, take it from an Isaac fan, being adaptable, staying flexible - that stuff is key; in the long run hostility is only going to breed more hostility.

And good luck.

 

[StormC]

I think part of the reason discussion can get out of hand is because so many people perceive Geno as basically deconfirmed already, or extremely unlikely. When they see a thousand page thread about a character that is "out of the running" they might see it as fair game to talk about him however they please. Especially because the character doesn't have a "legacy" or "history" the same way characters like King K. Rool, Ridley, and Banjo-Kazooie do.

I mean, I get it. The K. Rool thread had to deal with his fair share of detractors and doubters. And uh, I know I had a few schisms in this thread before. I just see over and over the sentiment that a character has to get in and is certainly getting in and if they aren't then that's disappointing and terrible and awful. I've always maintained that it's a miracle Geno has gotten this far in Smash speculation, he was regarded as a silly pipe dream for Brawl and Smash 4, now that it is actually possible to talk about his chances is an amazing accomplishment and should not be downplayed. But the way some posters in the Banjo thread acted during the Hero reveal was downright embarrassing. I understand emotions get high during Smash speculation, and god knows I've been there, but I think some overly negative feelings are just not healthy to share on a public forum where everyone can see it and feed off of each other. It's fine to be like "eh, wasn't the character I wanted," but people were just vicious. It's not like Hero even directly deconfirmed Banjo (spoiler: he didn't), but the Direct wasn't even over and there was blood in the air.

This is something I've thought about a lot as well, especially after the Grinch leak and November Direct: Sakurai never promised XYZ character. Any speculation, anticipation, expectation, and leak regarding a character should not be treated as if Sakurai is obliged to follow it. Yes, we all want characters and we're disappointed when they don't get in. That's fine. It just feels like post-ballot characters that aren't top 20 on fanpolls are less valid than others in a lot of the community's eyes. It's worse now because we know exactly how many fighters we're getting, so unless you're hoping for the vague chance of more DLC, competition will get fierce. I've been at the lowest point when the character you want is deconfirmed. I lost my absolute god damn mind at the K. Rool costume. But that was a lesson. Sometimes it's good to not drink your own piss and call it water. Take it for what it is.

...but then in Ultimate I got so maybe I look like a SOB telling others how to feel because I got my wants. But hopefully they at least are evidence that Sakurai does listen to fans, even when they seem impossible, but even he can't put in literally every character the fans want. Sometimes other things take priority. All you can do is keep your support vocal and hope someday the gods listen.

Personally, I don't think Geno will get into Smash Ultimate. I think there's too much for him to overcome. But I'm not going to play hype police. I've said my piece and I'm just one guy. I'm not Sakurai or a Nintendo employee so I can't say for sure what would happen. I would just hate to see the Geno fanbase collapse into anger and disappointment if February 2020 comes and DLC is wrapped up with no Geno. People smell blood when fanbases act overly emotional and aggressive, as said before, the Ridley fanbase was seen as a joke after Smash 4. Be visible, be positive, be open minded. Geno might never get into Smash. He might get announced next. Anything and nothing could happen. Take it in stride.

Good luck.

 

[owjies]

Jumping into the ring every time someone trolls is unproductive. The same “literal who” arguments have been thrown at Geno for ten years, and if Geno ever does make it in, you know those sentiments will just shift to “waste of a slot.” The energy spent flaming people out of the thread can be spent trying to resurrect longtime support, drawing in new fans, and lobbying for the character whenever the opportunity arises.

Yeah, don’t be a punching bag, be an immovable wall with all the hard evidence of why Geno matters and why he’s a top contender plastered across it. Getting Geno into this game is going to be infinitely more satisfying than getting the last word on a troll.

 

[GoodGrief741]

This has nothing to do with guns or western characters. I'm speaking to the idea that because he's not an A-list current "mainstream" character people just need to be okay with people coming in and trashing him or presenting completely false information or very subjective opinions as fact.

And people have trashed other characters and will continue to trash other characters. Including those that you mentioned. If you think this is a phenomenon exclusive to Geno then you really need to get out of this thread.

Definitely Erdrick/DQ. For a solid 2 months there would be hours and hours of Erdrick discussion with people having to redirect the conversation back to Geno even when there was a dedicated DQ thread.

Well yeah, obviously Erdrick was going to be a point of discussion, considering 1. he was leaked and 2. as a Square Enix character he's in direct competition with Geno. Also 3. a lot of people were throwing around hatred and it's only natural that a fan of the character would want to defend him. I hardly see how that's derailing the thread.

If someone is shooting down other people's positive theories or ideas regarding a character then that doesn't seem very supportive does it?

That's where you're so blind. Those two things have nothing to do with each other. You can accept that a character has a very low chance and still support them. That's literally how Geno eventually got to this level of popularity. If people only supported characters because they thought they would get in speculation would be very different.

Also, recognizing low chances can help. If you find the source of that, you're better positioned to change that.

Finally, calling a conspiracy theory what it is is not anti-support. In fact, I'd say making conspiracy theories can hurt reputation - do you think the Skull Kid guys will ever live down the chairs?

Yeah you're twisting what I said. I was specifically referring to the author saying Geno isn't an important character in SMRPG. That's false. As far as SMRPG being a "niche game" that's wrong. If you really want to go into the same back and forth about sales and re-releases and whatnot we can but does the thread really need that for the twentieth time? Being an old game isn't the same thing as being a niche game.

It doesn't matter that it's false if everyone in the world believes it. The burden of proof is on us. We will absolutely have to explain the same things twenty billion times. Suck it up.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that it is true some people undersell the legacy of Geno or SMRPG in general.

The game was the first time Nintendo adapted Mario to the RPG genre and even without it Paper Mario wouldn’t exist (since the first game was actually planned to be a Legend Of Seven Stars sequel). That gives the title enough legacy already.
Geno and Mallow also represent one of the peak moments of the relationship between Nintendo and Square through the years. A relationship that hasn’t been so close to being that strong until the current years. Geno would easily represent the golden era of that relationship alongside DQ if he does get in.

I could imagine the idea of some people not wanting Geno due to personal taste... but that doesn’t discredit the legacy that both SMRPG and their characters actually holds for the history of Nintendo.

 

[EarlTamm]

I think that it is true some people undersell the legacy of Geno or SMRPG in general.

The game was the first time Nintendo adapted Mario to the RPG genre and even without it Paper Mario wouldn’t exist (since the first game was actually planned to be a Legend Of Seven Stars sequel). That gives the title enough legacy already.
Geno and Mallow also represent one of the peak moments of the relationship between Nintendo and Square through the years. A relationship that hasn’t been so close to being that strong until the current years. Geno would easily represent the golden era of that relationship alongside DQ if he does get in.

I could imagine the idea of some people not wanting Geno due to personal taste... but that doesn’t discredit the legacy that both SMRPG and their characters actually holds for the history of Nintendo.

Heck, it was also the first time anyone in the Mario universe was given a real personality. I said it before long ago, but the personality of Bowser that we know and love today got his start here.

 

[Penguinbowler]

I think that it is true some people undersell the legacy of Geno or SMRPG in general.

The game was the first time Nintendo adapted Mario to the RPG genre and even without it Paper Mario wouldn’t exist (since the first game was actually planned to be a Legend Of Seven Stars sequel). That gives the title enough legacy already.
Geno and Mallow also represent one of the peak moments of the relationship between Nintendo and Square through the years. A relationship that hasn’t been so close to being that strong until the current years. Geno would easily represent the golden era of that relationship alongside DQ if he does get in.

I could imagine the idea of some people not wanting Geno due to personal taste... but that doesn’t discredit the legacy that both SMRPG and their characters actually holds for the history of Nintendo.

I think a big issue is if you didn't grow up with 7 stars but later titles, you would have seen the game aged... poorly in a lot of areas. Especially when compared to the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi games. It does have a legacy to it, but unless it gets a remake that irons out some of the kinks, i don't think it will be veiwed as fondly as the first 2 paper marios.

Not saying this to bash genos chances though, while he isn't my personal pick for a mario rep, a lot of people want him and as long as people are happy and have fun with the new character, thats all that matters.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think a big issue is if you didn't grow up with 7 stars but later titles, you would have seen the game aged... poorly in a lot of areas. Especially when compared to the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi games. It does have a legacy to it, but unless it gets a remake that irons out some of the kinks, i don't think it will be veiwed as fondly as the first 2 paper marios.

Not saying this to bash genos chances though, while he isn't my personal pick for a mario rep, a lot of people want him and as long as people are happy and have fun with the new character, thats all that matters.

I disagree with this assessment, but then again I never notice when games age poorly.

I dunno, still seems to me like it holds up great.

 

[EarlTamm]

You know, staying awake for 24+ hours is a weird experience that I never intend, but it always leaves me with some interesting thoughts. Like, isn't SMRPG kinda like a Mario Dragon Quest for Europeans? By the time it got over there, series influenced by it's mechanics and character have already made it's way over with more polish, causing a case of Seinfeld is Unfunny. Game is still great, but they wouldn't understand why it was so important in relation to the rest of the Mario RPG's.

My brain is dying. Need sun to go down.

 

[Deleted member]

You know, staying awake for 24+ hours is a weird experience that I never intend, but it always leaves me with some interesting thoughts. Like, isn't SMRPG kinda like a Mario Dragon Quest for Europeans? By the time it got over there, series influenced by it's mechanics and character have already made it's way over with more polish, causing a case of Seinfeld is Unfunny. Game is still great, but they wouldn't understand why it was so important in relation to the rest of the Mario RPG's.

My brain is dying. Need sun to go down.

Thankfully I can say as an european that it doesn’t have to be the case.

Mostly thanks to the rereleases both on the Wii U Virtual Console and the SNES Classic which finally brought the game to Europe in an offical way.

 

[EarlTamm]

Thankfully I can say as an european that it doesn’t have to be the case.

Mostly thanks to the rereleases both on the Wii U Virtual Console and the SNES Classic which finally brought the game to Europe in an offical way.

That's what I mean however. Europeans can play it today and find enjoyment in it like DQ, but it missed it's chance for the biggest impact when it was not translated over when it was first released. I hope that makes sense, again, 24+ hours of no sleep.

 

[Penguinbowler]

I disagree with this assessment, but then again I never notice when games age poorly.

I dunno, still seems to me like it holds up great.

A lot of my issue stemmed from the fact that it's formula was refined in later games. the shared flower-point system is a lot better when spells are both cheaper and your party is smaller.

 

[MattX20]

Okay guys, to try to break up some monotony, let's try this. What do you think the exact release dates for both the DQ heroes and Banjo Kazooie will be?

 

[GoodGrief741]

You know, staying awake for 24+ hours is a weird experience that I never intend, but it always leaves me with some interesting thoughts. Like, isn't SMRPG kinda like a Mario Dragon Quest for Europeans? By the time it got over there, series influenced by it's mechanics and character have already made it's way over with more polish, causing a case of Seinfeld is Unfunny. Game is still great, but they wouldn't understand why it was so important in relation to the rest of the Mario RPG's.

My brain is dying. Need sun to go down.

This is really insightful though. Even worse than Dragon Quest, as the first four games in that series did see worldwide release at the time.

I don't suffer from Seinfeld is Unfunny but I do wonder if that's the case for most people...

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

For me, xpnc , Fatmanonice , Datboigeno , TBone06 , MattX20 , TerminalMontage , papagenos , and ForsakenM , it’s Geno.

 

[Datboigeno]

And people have trashed other characters and will continue to trash other characters. Including those that you mentioned. If you think this is a phenomenon exclusive to Geno then you really need to get out of this thread.

Well yeah, obviously Erdrick was going to be a point of discussion, considering 1. he was leaked and 2. as a Square Enix character he's in direct competition with Geno. Also 3. a lot of people were throwing around hatred and it's only natural that a fan of the character would want to defend him. I hardly see how that's derailing the thread.

That's where you're so blind. Those two things have nothing to do with each other. You can accept that a character has a very low chance and still support them. That's literally how Geno eventually got to this level of popularity. If people only supported characters because they thought they would get in speculation would be very different.

Also, recognizing low chances can help. If you find the source of that, you're better positioned to change that.

Finally, calling a conspiracy theory what it is is not anti-support. In fact, I'd say making conspiracy theories can hurt reputation - do you think the Skull Kid guys will ever live down the chairs?

It doesn't matter that it's false if everyone in the world believes it. The burden of proof is on us. We will absolutely have to explain the same things twenty billion times. Suck it up.

See, you did this unintentionally but this entire response is a perfect example of something else I've noticed happens in this thread. Certain people here preach love and acceptance and openness for anyone coming into this thread even those that want to **** on Geno because "That's would Geno would do :3". And that's great. But what I have also noticed is responses like this directed at people who happen to be more pro-Geno or what you see as more "echochambery". I'm answering your response in what is to me a non-insulting way and you in turn said

"you really need to get out of this thread."
"That's where you're so blind."
" Suck it up"

Is that really the sort of kindness and acceptance that you're asking other people to practice in this exact thread? Is that really less ****ty than what was said to a certain person recently? I definitely don't think so. You're literally advising me to leave the thread because I don't like certain things. If you're going to hold people to a certain standard then you should have the self-awareness to realize when you're not holding yourself to those standards. I've seen it time and time again that people come into the thread and go on ridiculous rants insulting people yet another individual that's more pro-Geno can step out of line and people really lay into said person and that's apparently totally ok. It feels like a complete double standard.

And people have trashed other characters and will continue to trash other characters. Including those that you mentioned. If you think this is a phenomenon exclusive to Geno then you really need to get out of this thread.

I think you're still missing my point. The idea that we should be ok with people ****ting on Geno just because he's obscure and supposedly desperately in need of support to the point of being some sort of character speculation whipping boy is messed up. Just because other characters are being trashed doesn't mean we need to be complacent when our character is being trashed just because he hasn't appeared in a game for 20 years.

Well yeah, obviously Erdrick was going to be a point of discussion, considering 1. he was leaked and 2. as a Square Enix character he's in direct competition with Geno. Also 3. a lot of people were throwing around hatred and it's only natural that a fan of the character would want to defend him. I hardly see how that's derailing the thread.

My question to that is: What happened when certain people who were pro-Geno decided to go and discuss the character and defend him against criticism in the SE thread? Nothing great from what I saw. Did people from the Geno thread regularly post in the Erdrick thread about Geno's chances and why he might be a better choice than Erdrick? Nope. Would it have been tolerated there? Absolutely not. People would have been told it was off-topic. Yet that most definitely did happen here to the point of pages and pages of discussion being just about Erdrick. That's my point.

Those two things have nothing to do with each other. You can accept that a character has a very low chance and still support them. That's literally how Geno eventually got to this level of popularity. If people only supported characters because they thought they would get in speculation would be very different.

The thing is there's a very big difference between believing a character has a low chance and repeatedly saying that they're not in and probably never getting in as if it's built on some sort of fact for months and months with that being the overarching tone of conversation. I know people have said that other threads were guilty of it but that ended up being the vast majority of discussion here for weeks on end and it was a bit much.

Finally, calling a conspiracy theory what it is is not anti-support. In fact, I'd say making conspiracy theories can hurt reputation - do you think the Skull Kid guys will ever live down the chairs?

Honestly this just sounds a lot like trying to thought police and shame other people's ideas with the fear that somehow Geno fans are "going to look bad". Firstly the specific "conspiracy theory" you're referring to (the cinematics being connected) was one that lots of people have stated. Even papagenos mentioned it in a video among other others. It's not only something echochambery people in the thread came up with. What I'm noticing is that some people in this thread are too overly concerned with being potentially perceived as some sort of toxic or embarrassing fanbase over the smallest things, and then go on to try and correct pro-Geno users' perceived toxic or embarrassing behavior. But the thing is that's pretty unnecessary and just ends up feeling overly paternalistic and incredibly condescending.

It doesn't matter that it's false if everyone in the world believes it.

I know you're being hyperbolic here, but still. There are people who haven't played SMRPG when it came out because they were too young or whatever, but there are lots of people who have played the game, like it, and talk about it. It's not being talked and memed about currently like Persona 5 but that doesn't inherently make it niche nor does that mean everyone outside of the Smash bubble thinks that it's "niche". And the funny thing is when we do explain things to people who just want to come into the thread to "have a conversation" they just end up disregarding it anyway.

 

[Ovaltine]

Okay guys, to try to break up some monotony, let's try this. What do you think the exact release dates for both the DQ heroes and Banjo Kazooie will be?

I'm willing to bet Luminary and company are coming at the beginning of July. Banjo and Kazooie will likely come in October, much as I hate to say it. On the bright side, if we get a Mad Monster Mansion remix, that'd be the best damn time to show it off ever. Besides, I've already waited 20 years on the dot. I can wait another few months and for summer to come and go.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm willing to bet Luminary and company are coming at the beginning of July. Banjo and Kazooie will likely come in October, much as I hate to say it. On the bright side, if we get a Mad Monster Mansion remix, that'd be the best damn time to show it off ever. Besides, I've already waited 20 years on the dot. I can wait another few months and for summer to come and go.

Lol, Banjo releasing on my birthday (October 28th) would be a great date to get into the Banjo series at last.

But I understand why some people would prefer him as early as possible.

 

[Ovaltine]

Lol, Banjo releasing on my birthday (October 28th) would be a great date to get into the Banjo series at last.

But I understand why some people would prefer him as early as possible.

Oh yeah, of course, but I can't even care if the wait will be that long. They could release B-K on the last day of autumn (December 20th) and I'd still be fine with it. I have no ****s to give because oh my god, they're back, they're home, I only have to wait like five months at the absolute most. I'm just... so insanely happy about that, so grateful that I can't even be impatient about it all.

The day Geno is announced to return, whether it be in Ultimate, Smash 6, or some other venue, I will wait just as patiently and gratefully for his arrival, as well.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I apologize that we can't get a lot of this taken care of sooner, but it doesn't matter if they might be a troll or not. Nobody has any business trying to drive them off the thread. Ever. You report it and let us handle it. You can reply to them properly pointing out the flaws. If they reply back poorly, you can just... not reply again.

Also, drop this long debate. But I'll also clear up some stuff people should understand;

-The Erdrick stuff was never once a derail. It was important to the topic as part of the Square Seven and leaks. Somebody saying someone else is more likely, in relation to this has never not nor will be trolling in itself. The statement is fine. But context matters of how it appears.
-Defending your character with hostility is against the rules because civil behavior is required. Detracting is not something we condemn in itself. It's detracting and being a **** about it that is a problem. To clarify, only one user as of late did that, and I remember them being outright deleted with their messages gone. Two others were heavily accused of trolling, with one making a dumb meme(which with discussion an understanding was gotten and they actually are a supporter), and a recent user that was bullied off the thread. They came back for a moment because other users insisted on having a healthy and reasonable discussion, and they were bullied off the thread again. This is intolerable. Do understand that as soon as we can, we'll take full action on that. Though we may not need to, if this message hits home well enough and the bullying stops.
-Do not accuse others of trolling either. Just report the post and move on.
-Also, a part of why this debate needs to be dropped is it's getting too hostile.
-Finally, and most importantly, these are not rules that are really up for debate in this thread. If you question them, please take it Forum Support. You are free to make a Group PM towards me as well to put your thoughts in. We'll gladly discuss the rules, but that's not on-topic for this thread.