General ICs Q&A Thread

[toobusytocare]

actually you lose the ability to jump with stick (I guess thats an "option") but gain the ability to up b without losing your jump <_<

 

[DeLux]

I feel like there is no right or wrong in terms of control setup. Whatever makes you quickest is probably best. Or most comfortable, since a lot of the desyncing and cging comes strictly from muscle memory. But having to choose between quick and comfort, I'd opt for quick and learn to be comfortable =]

From a theoretical standpoint, I would have a button on the controller that allows one to toggle between B-sticking and standard smash C-sticking when it's held down. And also have repeat buttons for both index finger and thumb for jump, attack, and special respectively for buffering purposes. But then I theoretically would also need to have more buttons than the controller has, so the point is moot.

I agree, what's bad about tap jump off? I was under the impression one could duplicate the effects of tap jump even with it off and still have greater control and accessibility of moves like the utilt.

 

[DeLux]

You have less options. Not jumping when tilting is easy >_>.

I stand corrected. I guess I don't have the enough control over my stick to execute

 

[Hylian]

actually you lose the ability to jump with stick (I guess thats an "option") but gain the ability to up b without losing your jump <_<

I can up-b without losing my jump. I do it with GW all the time so I can jump out of my up-b.

You also can't up-b OOS with tap jump off.

 

[DeLux]

You also can't up-b OOS with tap jump off.

I believe that might be incorrect. You actually can up-b OOS if you do the following:

1. Shield
2. Jump + Buffer Belay (I do that by hitting X to jump and R to do a special in a non-default control scheme)

It's the same as doing it with tap jump on I think.

 

[ch33s3]

I have Z set to jump, so I can upb OOS. I lose NO functionality via having tap off.

 

[toobusytocare]

I can up-b without losing my jump. I do it with GW all the time so I can jump out of my up-b.

You also can't up-b OOS with tap jump off.

you can't jump out of up b with GnW (or any character) unless you get hit first

 

[EverAlert]

You can drop out of G&W's UpB after it reaches its peak and do other actions. Similar thing with Snake, etc.

And LOL, yes, you can UpB OOS with tap jump off. Tap jump off loses NO functionality, it just makes certain things a bit easier and certain things a bit harder. Pure personal preference.

 

[Hylian]

you can't jump out of up b with GnW (or any character) unless you get hit first

Yes you can? I'm pretty sure I practically invented GW and live in the same state as the best GW and YES you can jump out of his up-b without getting hit lol.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Why are we here talking about Up+B OoS like Ice Climbers really use it?

But on a serious note, Up+B OoS without dropping shield or jumping first is just desynched and almost useless.

 

[Hylian]

Why are we here talking about Up+B OoS like Ice Climbers really use it?

But on a serious note, Up+B OoS without dropping shield or jumping first is just desynched and almost useless.

I play other characters as well lol.

 

[Shurely]

Hey guys, I am trying to pick up the ice climbers and i was wondering how i should be practicing them. I can kinda desynch so that is what i have been working on. bthrow to dthrow i have been working on but not too much. and i am just wondering if there is more i should be working on now that i am just starting out. thanks for any advice.

P.S. i am mostly practicing vs computers for the time being.

 

[Sieguest]

Hey guys, I am trying to pick up the ice climbers and i was wondering how i should be practicing them. I can kinda desynch so that is what i have been working on. bthrow to dthrow i have been working on but not too much. and i am just wondering if there is more i should be working on now that i am just starting out. thanks for any advice.

P.S. i am mostly practicing vs computers for the time being.

The basics in this guide should give you what you need to work on first.

 

[DeLux]

This question is regarding the Diddy Match-up, but the Match-up thread really didn't address it so I thought I'd ask it here.

Is it good to hold onto both bananas for the entire match?

My thoughts are as follows: In desync game, IB spam forces Diddy to approach, but he gets countered with the approach with a SH blizzard wall. Most Diddy players will say something like, "To counter the blizzard wall and open an approach, throw a banana into them." With careful timing over the duration of a match, it would be possible to retrieve both bananas, especially if the Diddy player is attempting to break up the blizzard wall. After that, the IC's options include IB spamming if they are far away and Blizzard Wall if they approach to rack up damage. Also, if one were to simply Air-Dodge both IC's at the same time and then hold down the attack button while doing said IB spam/Blizzard wall, it is possible to fsmash while still holding onto the bananas for the kill. This is particularly effective when desynced if Popo drags a fsmash charging Nana around with the sync-tether.

That being said, this strategy seems to work for me, but it might be because I don't play any good Diddy's. Thoughts?

 

[Smasher89]

Hmm, sounds interesting, but theres one weakness too it, no grabs, not that ít will matter if diddy can´t do anything about getting damaged =)

 

[DeLux]

Hmm, sounds interesting, but theres one weakness too it, no grabs, not that ít will matter if diddy can´t do anything about getting damaged =)

For sure, that is definitely the trade-off. My reasoning for taking the Banana's out of play comes based out of familiarity. If you're really good at juggling items and using bananas to setup into a chain grab, that's great and you should do it. But my guess is that the best Diddy players are going to be expert banana managers just based on sheer number of reps (and possibly Diddy's superior item capabilites at least compared to the IC's). I feel like Banana grabbing is the best way to throw off a Diddy from his normal game and forces him to fight on a more even footing.

And all things being equal, I don't see Diddy with anything astounding to get through the Desync game if Bananas are no longer in play.

 

[VK-137]

What do you generally do when you've gotten a grab and gotten to the edge but with nana holding them? I haven't gotten the turnaround consistent yet so at the moment I just bthrow -> bair them. Is there anything better I should do in the meantime?

 

[DeLux]

What do you generally do when you've gotten a grab and gotten to the edge but with nana holding them? I haven't gotten the turnaround consistent yet so at the moment I just bthrow -> bair them. Is there anything better I should do in the meantime?

I still have some trouble with the Nana reversal, so I'll give you the alternative I do. It's actually possible for you to input a back throw with Nana, and while that occurs have Popo use that input to move into position to either pivot grab or dash grab the back throw.
So the input would be something like

Back throw/Popo dashes backward -> DI back towards Nana -> grab.

Another thing you might consider is a Down throw by Nana, Into a Blizzard by Popo, followed by a Fair by Nana after the throw for a meteor.

However, the need for either of these alternatives is trumped by simply turning around your grabs before Nana grabs on them over the edge.

 

[Sieguest]

I still have some trouble with the Nana reversal, so I'll give you the alternative I do. It's actually possible for you to input a back throw with Nana, and while that occurs have Popo use that input to move into position to either pivot grab or dash grab the back throw.
So the input would be something like

Back throw/Popo dashes backward -> DI back towards Nana -> grab.

Another thing you might consider is a Down throw by Nana, Into a Blizzard by Popo, followed by a Fair by Nana after the throw for a meteor.

However, the need for either of these alternatives is trumped by simply turning around your grabs before Nana grabs on them over the edge.

The last sentence was win.

I wouldn't suggest going for the meteor, it can be teched.

 

[Prawn]

lol ICs lets be real here. It is VERY hard to tech or meteor cancel(for some characters), especially ON REACTION. it is also a LOT easier to do then a cg to a kill percent(especially at low percents or near the edge which would make you in position for a spike). And EVEN if they survive you are giving a huge positional advantedge that can lead to a gimp, another spike, or a grab very easily.


tl;dr Spike when you can, it has won me important tournament sets.

 

[Smoom77]

Just note, just regular desynced IBs on the ground are beaten easily just by him jumping and throwing the banana. If you blizzard wall while having both naners, he can just sideb-kick through it. If that happens, try to predict it, throw away a naner and pivot grab. Preferably throw it to your back, lol.

I agree with Prawn. Unless they have AMAZING SDI, then they won't tech it.

 

[Prawn]

yeah not only do you have to SDI thie **** out of it(especially on a throw spike), but then you have to TIME THE TECH DURING THAT

 

[Sieguest]

And yet there are people who do just that......

 

[Prawn]

lol then you're doing it wrong. dont do a no throw spike and make sure popo is the farthest off the edge he can be holding him.

also you can jump down and bair directly after they tech. you're saying vs snake on the VERY edge of the stage(and at low to mid percents) you have a better chance of CGing snake to death then there is of them double teching and sdi-ing a spike and a stage spike?

i would call you a liar sir, checkmate

edit: oh and even if you screw up and they land on the stage:

while desynced(cause you are after the spike) you can blizz behind you or IB behind you to cover all their getup options and regrab.

 

[toobusytocare]

yeah not only do you have to SDI thie **** out of it(especially on a throw spike), but then you have to TIME THE TECH DURING THAT

in friendlies i'd always finish CGs with a fthrow to spike

now pretty much everyone in my region has learned to SDI and tech that ****

oh well, there's always bair for finishing CGs in style


also if they SDI and tech they always tech the side of the stage, so you can't follow the tech :\

 

[Prawn]

you can follow the tech if they land on top.

if they tech the side jump off and bair

 

[GwJ]

Match up thread is dead, so I'll post here in TheMike's stead. (Rhyming unintentional)

The ROB boards are discussing the Ice Climbers matchup and everyone knows one-sided, biased ratings you get from a single board are dumb, so you should come and un-dumb it!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=271182

 

[toobusytocare]

you dont have enough time to turn around, jump, then bair :\

trust me, following up out of a wall tech is pretty **** hard to impossible

i think the best we could do is maybe SH blizz? but at that point you just sacrificed your free KO you worked so hard for when you got the grab.

Spiking out of CG is fun in friendlies but i really dont think its worth the risk in tourney

 

[Prawn]

toobusy what is your grab consistency rate vs snakes in tourny?

as in how many grabs do you get(while both climbers are alive) lead to deaths?

maybe its just me but i find snake to be very hard. and ive seen matches of lain and meep vs snake, even when meep was at his peek. he is the riskiest to cg out of the whole cast by far

 

[toobusytocare]

with hobbling.... 100% lmao

without... iuno because i havent played a snake in tourney so in friendlies i just practice different CGs

in tourney I'd just fthrow or dthrow>fthrow

but for bthrow id say i get it 90% of the time

 

[Sieguest]

lol then you're doing it wrong. dont do a no throw spike and make sure popo is the farthest off the edge he can be holding him.

also you can jump down and bair directly after they tech. you're saying vs snake on the VERY edge of the stage(and at low to mid percents) you have a better chance of CGing snake to death then there is of them double teching and sdi-ing a spike and a stage spike?

i would call you a liar sir, checkmate

edit: oh and even if you screw up and they land on the stage:

while desynced(cause you are after the spike) you can blizz behind you or IB behind you to cover all their getup options and regrab.

Not me, every other IC player that goes to tourneys will tell you.
Can't really do it wrong if I don't go to tourneys yet.

in friendlies i'd always finish CGs with a fthrow to spike

now pretty much everyone in my region has learned to SDI and tech that ****

oh well, there's always bair for finishing CGs in style


also if they SDI and tech they always tech the side of the stage, so you can't follow the tech :\

^ Evidence

 

[toobusytocare]

like, if you think you can surprise them with it then go for it because its impossible to SDI it on reaction.

but in my region im known for finishing CGs with spikes because i like to end things quicker plus it looks cool to everyone else.
but this has become a curse because near the ledge everyone prepares to SDI if i choose to spike

 

[phi1ny3]

like, if you think you can surprise them with it then go for it because its impossible to SDI it on reaction.

but in my region im known for finishing CGs with spikes because i like to end things quicker plus it looks cool to everyone else.
but this has become a curse because near the ledge everyone prepares to SDI if i choose to spike

yeah I've noticed that more and more people know the spike's coming and just SDI it rofl.

Is the best remedy of "jello fingers" from trying to desynch under pressure to just practice until it's ingrained in muscle memory? Sometimes it really feels like I'm doing the right input but it's just 10x harder rofl.

Also I finally figured out how to get past DDD ftilt rofl, fml.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i belive that the NTS can't be DI'd. if you know that they know its coming, you can try that (though most characters have a good enough recovery to make it back at low percents anyway).

i'd recommend learning the bthrow/pivot CGs for most characters so you don't need to worry about being forced to only go forward. the less distance you have to cover, the better. plus, our usmash can kill sooner than our fsmash under most situations (you have farther to travel to the side death boundaries than the top).

 

[phi1ny3]

another question:

can dthrow -> fair spike onstage be done on fatties? I always end up having to just fthrow -> fair (you know, for that rapid low % gain).

 

[FrozenHobo]

you need to jump sooner, and spike later. i know fthrow -> fair works if you time it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah I can do fthrow -> fair super easy.

That and it's tons easier to use when going for the spike offstage.

but that being said, I don't tend to end up with getting spikes unless it's people who are bad.

Also, I figured out how to do bthrow usmash hobble w/o weird controls, the only problem is it's a pretty meh hobble concept to begin with lol (I can go into some details about why). It's totally cool though.

I also agree that dthrow -> fthrow is the best alternative against Snake if you don't want to bthrow hobble.

 

[DeLux]

Just note, just regular desynced IBs on the ground are beaten easily just by him jumping and throwing the banana. If you blizzard wall while having both naners, he can just sideb-kick through it. If that happens, try to predict it, throw away a naner and pivot grab. Preferably throw it to your back, lol.

Doesn't just SHing IB's and Blizzard walls stop both of those approaches? It seems to for me, but again, my roommate (a Lucario Main just learning to pick up Diddy now for tier purposes) might not be the best player utilizing his full options.


And regarding all the spike S/DIable debate, here's the real question to ask: What is easier to escape from between a fully charged Up-smash capping a CG or a spike attempting to meteor? Consistency dictates that the former is the better option. I'm more comfortable relying on my own consistency to pull of a grab than if someone else is able to to SDI/DI/tech.

 

[Smoom77]

Trust me, it doesn't. I've played Gnes, 2nd best Diddy. It doesn't work.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i don't like that you can tripped while you're already tripped. it makes no sense!