General ICs Q&A Thread

[DeLux]

I don't hate you, you just made a post to go out of your way to correct someone with the correct info by giving wrong info >_>

Don't do that lol

 

[insomniiac]

can anyone help me get the F-throw buffer? you know how IC can rapidly forward throw some characters..was wondering if there were some tips or things to think about that can help me get it down. thanks

bthrow dthrow light chars like mk
bthrow fthrow mid weights like olimar, diddy, falcon, falco, mario etc
hobble dem fatties like bowser dk snake and even rob

there is no guide to hobbling afaik, i actually taught myself the timing >_>

^^that.
except for heavies it isn't too hard to learn timing for dthrow -> dthrow or dthrow -> Fthrow. it's faster and does more damage than hobbling. i dthrow -> fthrow across the stage and only hobble to change directions if i run out of stage.

however, i do feel most comfortable hobbling heavyweight characters, so if you're not feeling confident i guess you can hobble to death. i'd recommend learning to CG them though.

 

[DeLux]

No you really should Fthrow Bthrow everyone if you can >_>

 

[insomniiac]

No you really should Fthrow Bthrow everyone if you can >_>

very light, floaty characters are very hard to catch with an Fthrow. watch the pros dude, they all down throw metaknight.

 

[DeLux]

The only reason they do it that way is because they learned it that way and have been winning with it.

I can give you a bunch of high profile matches that have been lost because of Bthrow > Dthrow not being tripless.

I guarantee you can't find me a single video where an IC lost on tripping out of a CG from Fthrow Bthrow. There's like only one IC in the world that exclusively uses it at a high level >_>

 

[insomniiac]

okay, what about heavy weight characters
backthrowing heavies is hell

 

[DeLux]

Not if you Fthrow Bthrow. It's really easy...

you can do it on visual cues alone

 

[Aefice]

hey lux, can you explain the visual cues in detail for fthrow - bthrow?

when do you think its better to d-throw - bthrow?

thanks lux

 

[DeLux]

Watch where your opponent's character is mid throw when Nana is Bthrowing. When Popo is Fthrowing, you want to grab when his hammer swings back fully.

It might be better to Dthrow > Bthrow on Lucas. For various reasons I think Fthrow > Bthrow is better overall, but as long as it's tripless and unmashable and you convert at your highest rate possible it doesn't matter what you use.

I will use Fthrow > Bthrow, or Dthrow > Dthrow, or Hobble turn around, or some combination of both.

 

[insomniiac]

okay i was thinking about it, and the reason why i think leading with fthrow is bad (aside from it being the most difficult to catch) is that fthrow puts your opponent further away from you than any other throw. nana is less mobile than popo, therefore it's difficult to get nana positioned properly to catch popo's fthrow in certain situations. downthrow gives time for nana to buffer a walk/dash to get there in time.

fthrowing to popo, however, is more managable due to the fact that you have full control over Popo

 

[DeLux]

Good reasoning except unfortunately you forgot: Dthrow regrab puts your opponent further away on regrab than an fthrow regrab

Sorry, try again.

Further, let's look at how people control things. When you're throwing with Fthrow, timing is constant. Since you aren't in direct control of Nana and have the delay timing, it becomes much easier to relay on a constant timing since it's harder to visually cue off of Nana. That's why it's good to have Popo's Bthrow off of the visual cue since it's variable timing, but turns you around. At least when the timing IS variable, you have direct control.

Of course Dthrows help, but every IC will after they grab Dthrow > Dthrow as standard practice because of standing grab's whiff animation. However, going from Dthrow Transitions into a CG, most ICs will Bthrow > Dthrow which is bad as it's not the tripless option and it's more mashable than going straight into fthrow > Bthrow.

You're acting like I haven't tested this and accounted for every possibility you're going to throw at me >_>

If I had to call in someone that's a "pro" like you say and ask them why they don't tripless CG, they'll probably say it's because they haven't practiced it enough to not drop it in tournament or something along those lines so they'll take the risk of tripping against their own practiced consistency. If we had tripless CGs starting 4 years ago instead of last year, I bet you it would be the standard already.

 

[insomniiac]

okay, well either way, downthrow gives nana more time to get where she needs to be because it's longer.

9B doesn't Fthrow -> Bthrow lol, i'm pretty sure it's not because of his lack of practice.
they respond that way because it's not a good method. the difficulty/awkwardness of such a CG isn't worth making your CG tripless.

the chances of you tripping are more slim than f*ing up your CG because Fthrow -> Bthrow is ugly.

 

[-LzR-]

The visual cue is simple. When you backthrow, the moment Nana is facing exactly towards you or away from you is the time to press grab.

 

[DeLux]

okay, well either way, downthrow gives nana more time to get where she needs to be because it's longer.

stop double posting please

The Dthrow vs. fthrow spacing is a non issue because as I said again, every IC is going to assume a Dthrow > Dthrow transition. If they aren't doing that already, they are bad.

More over, Fthrowing to Popo is redundant and honestly doesn't matte because in the same situation you'd technically be able to Dthrow with Nana which has less cooldown and therefore more time to adjust spacing.

So either way you're still wrong.

9B doesn't Fthrow -> Bthrow lol, i'm pretty sure it's not because of his lack of practice.
they respond that way because it's not a good method. the difficulty/awkwardness of such a CG isn't worth making your CG tripless.

the chances of you tripping are more slim than f*ing up your CG because Fthrow -> Bthrow is ugly.

And the Japanese players started using Fthrow > Bthrow after I started using it in tournament. However, you can see them dropping the CG in some higher profile sets, so I imagine that would help attribute it to that. But over time I've seen 9B and Kakera incorporate the Fthrow/Dthrow > Bthrow tripless CGs.

You can speculate all you want, but in terms of how people learn things, the leniency and superiority is there for Fthrow > Bthrow. Just because it's ugly doesn't mean the IGU and Frame windows indicate it's just as lenient if not more lenient than stand Bthrow > Dthrows. It's just newer, so give it three more years and it'll probably catch up to Bthrow Dthrow in consistency, if not more so because it's max conversion rate is higher.

I can quantify how long it's been since the CGs have been discovered and adopted as used. I can quantify spacing windows. I can quantify timing windows. There's an objectively quantifiably superior CG.

Saying it doesn't work because it's "ugly" doesn't mean anything.

If there were no tripping codes on, I'd STILL Fthrow > Bthrow for consistency. Being tripless is an added bonus.

Also, believe it or not but the IC tech metagame is more advanced in the US than it is in Japan. You can thank EAlert, Guest, Vinnie, and myself for that.

 

[EverAlert]

dafuqamireading.jpg

listen to lux PLEASE

 

[-LzR-]

Just as Lux told me he doesn't know that much stuff compared to others and then writes another book.

 

[DeLux]

What I do know I research thoroughly lol

If I weren't horrid as a player, I would be able to prove the technology I advocate is the way to go

 

[-LzR-]

Your skill as a player has no meaning to me, what you say does. Even though I heard you quit, it's cool you are still around. /social

 

[Aefice]

hey lux, whats hobble turn around? bthrow hobble?

is hobble turn around and dthrow dthrow tripless as well?

im finding it difficult to fthrow - bthrow snake consistently.

 

[dettadeus]

If you don't mind me answering...
Hobble turnaround would be a B-throw hobble, yes.

So long as you are always walking, it will be tripless. Don't dash to get the regrab on D-Throw.

The reason it's difficult to Fthrow > Bthrow Snake is that the animation he's in after being thrown only has his ankle regrab-able or something like that. The spacing is super-tight.
Generally you would want to hobble Snake.

Be careful when hobbling though because people can SDI the Ice Block really far away. First time I tried hobbling the best player in my region, he SDI'd the Ice Block behind me on the first go and it scared the crap out of me.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Lux, I'm starting to use F/B on a lot more people. Wario is free with it, as is Lucario and Diddy.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

What is a good counter pick stage against snake other than FD?

Ima guess u gonna tell me Castle Seige.


Also is mean :[

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Snake is actually terrible against SNake, it is probably his best stage.

Stages with platforms would be preferable since we have more room to avoid grenades. I prefer BF and PS1 to FD.

 

[Ruinn]

guys, does ic nair beat out marth fair? because so far all marths have to do is keep poking fair on me until it finally hits and they can combo. if ic nair doesnt beat it out, does the desync blizzard beat it out? (where popo and nana jump back and forth rotating doing blizzards)

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

No, but if you run at them and shield the landing fair (Rising isn't safe) you can most likely bait SOMETHING that isn't safe, such as jab or up-b.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

Snake is actually terrible against SNake, it is probably his best stage.

Stages with platforms would be preferable since we have more room to avoid grenades. I prefer BF and PS1 to FD.

So what ur saying is that castle siege is not a good cp against snake right :?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Castle Siege is...ok. Lots of places to set traps that can be lost. The 3rd part sucks, the first part is awesome, the 2nd part is...whatever

 

[Sieguest]

guys, does ic nair beat out marth fair? because so far all marths have to do is keep poking fair on me until it finally hits and they can combo. if ic nair doesnt beat it out, does the desync blizzard beat it out? (where popo and nana jump back and forth rotating doing blizzards)

@Red: Don't listen to ESAM, he is wrong. ICs Nair actually has a really obscure damaging windbox where if you space it right, will beat out Marth fair.... pretty hard to do but if you practice you'll get it soon enough.

@Blue: Pretty sure that blizz walls beat every thing in this game...
Anyone who disagrees obv. does not know what they're talking about and I'll end up chewing them out via PMs later. etc etc etc.

 

[DeLux]

Guest trolling???

WTF is happening

 

[SSBBDaisy]

@Red: Don't listen to ESAM, he is wrong. ICs Nair actually has a really obscure damaging windbox where if you space it right, will beat out Marth fair.... pretty hard to do but if you practice you'll get it soon enough.

@Blue: Pretty sure that blizz walls beat every thing in this game...
Anyone who disagrees obv. does not know what they're talking about and I'll end up chewing them out via PMs later. etc etc etc.

Can olimar grab/pivot grab ICs blizzard wall? what about samus's zair, or link and tl arrows and boomerangs.

 

[Skadorski]

Guest trolling???

WTF is happening

You must not know Guest very well then if this is new o. o

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Blizzard wall can't beat projectiles (Pikmin don't count)

 

[Sieguest]

Guest trolling???

WTF is happening

My apologies, I shouldn't let personal feelings towards some users dictate my behavior in this thread (or any other beside the social x.x).

You must not know Guest very well then if this is new o. o

Well, I normally try to keep at least a semi-professional type facade when I'm posting anywhere that isn't on a chatroom, skype, or a thread I know to be generally silly.

Can olimar grab/pivot grab ICs blizzard wall? what about samus's zair, or link and tl arrows and boomerangs.

If it wasn't clear already, I was trolling lol. There are plenty of things Blizz walls can't beat.

Blizzard wall can't beat projectiles (Pikmin don't count)

*Projectiles that don't have a targetbox, but yeah, this.

 

[-LzR-]

No, but if you run at them and shield the landing fair (Rising isn't safe) you can most likely bait SOMETHING that isn't safe, such as jab or up-b.

Oh Esam, please, tell me how to do this stuff. I struggle with Marth so much I feel like it's a -3 MU. Fair fair fair everywhere and I lose. It's not fun for either player in that MU that way when Marth just does a single thing and I die.
Can you tell me how is rising fair not safe? If I shield it I kinda fly offstage from the shieldpush alone and then I am ****ed up again. Would like to know how to deal with that single move and I think I could do well against Marth... Yeah and I am bad.

Also, generally, how should I know when to Blizzard and when to not? I'm aware it's kind of a spacing tool instead of damaging or anything as it owns, but it's kinda slow anyways so doing it too close should get you owned... When I play against MK they always glideattack my Blizzard... How do I deal with this?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I mean...experience and practice. I can't really say "Oh on frame 3 of their fair begin the shield" because in actual matches you can't get that specific.

For the blizzard thing, again it is experience. You should be able to tell when it is a good place to blizzard. Blizzard < Ice block in more situations, though. I'm starting to use more LDs when just on the ground and holy crap it gives so much pressure.

 

[-LzR-]

I have experience and that is all I have against Marth. I play the MU a lot. It's like my most played MU with Icies but I still can't do anything about the most basic tactic there is. It really depressing.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Um...be better? IDK bro, fair never gave me that much trouble...

 

[-LzR-]

I admit I am bad, but I still don't get it why it's so bad for me. It gives so much shieldpush I can barely punish a badly spaced fair on powershield sometimes. Why am I so bad? What should I do? Shield it and punish oos? Try to mess with Blizzard and IBs? I just don't get it, nothing works for me. It feels like the MU is impossible for me...

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You can camp, btw. You have projectiles, he doesn't. When he is approaching with ****, it is easier to punish. If he isn't slowly make your way in. 39 seconds into the match if you are losing by 14% it doesn't really matter, you have 7+ minutes to make up that deficit. YOu probably need to play calmer.

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah I think you are right. Thanks.
Oh and... When I start to play patiently, Marth starts to approach slowly, taking a little more of the stage with each fair and eventually taking me to the ledge.

When I shield a fair, what are my options actually, in theory. Like, when it's tippered, I assume you cannot do anything about it? And if it's close you can nair and very close you can grab, but still doesn't work >_>
I hate this MU so much, it's ultra gay. There aren't even many videos. Why is it such a rare MU...