General ICs Q&A Thread

[DarkFlameX]

Hey guys, Ive got a tournament this upcoming weekend, the match ups to look out for for me are as follows, diddy, IC ditto, and olimar, any advice for them?

 

[DeLux]

My advice is to check the MU Q&A Thread first that is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=319140

It is also stickied to remain at the top of our subforum.

Read through the writeups and if those don't answer your questions, ask your question there.

 

[Aefice]

yo. watched 9B lose to hayase.

why is 9B using (p) dthrow (n) bthrow cg now?

is that tripless?

 

[Smoom77]

It's basically the same thing as fthrow>bthrow. It should be tripless.

 

[-LzR-]

But it has the awful thing that it's weight dependent so it's much harder to do.

 

[DeLux]

Assuming Dthrow, when the buffer window occurs moves up to 19 frames depending on the character and happens almost immediately after you regrab (for example, the Window for MK begins at the exact time you hit grab for Nana).

With Fthrow it's at a constant timing with a more lenient buffer window.

 

[| Big D |]

OK PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME I THOUGHT I HAD IT ALL FIGURED OUT BUT I DON'T AND I NEED SOME SERIOUS HELP. AM I PLAYING IT WRONG IS MY WHOLE STYLE A LIE CUZ I I JUST DON'T KNOW.

I don't know if this belongs here or the MU thread but I really need help/critique anything.

Getting styled on by Killock

Losing to Felix

A tourney win on Asa but I got lucky because i grabbed him out of a failed pluck. Not as important to watch.

But ya I would really appreciate critique from anybody.

 

[-LzR-]

Okay then. I can do some critique, but keep in mind that I'm bad so what I say might not be true.

In your first set against Killock, I feel you bro. The MU is so gay. I personally think Marth is our worst MU after MK, but I generally have trouble against Marths anyways.
So the first thing is, don't try to directly challenge Marth just like that. You cannot do it, he will fair you away just like that. Ice Blocks are your best friend in this MU. Try to sneak them under Marth when he fairs at you so it might catch his landing, giving you time to do something.
Killock used a lot of upB, try to bait it. After he gets grabbed because of it a couple times he will be scared and won't use it so much.
I can't think of anything else for this set really as my eyes are still on fire as the videos were so damn bright.

Against Felix... You got some really cool grabs there. Overall though, you shouldn't simply just throw the bananas back at Diddy just like that. It's exactly what he wants you to do. You should usually first wait for him to commit to something to make sure your throw is safe or use IBs or Blizzard at the same time to make it stronger. If you have both bananas on control, just camp, Diddy can't do anything and he kinda loses without bananas. You just gave them back to him whenever this happened. At 4:33 you performed an Ice Block offstage. This is kinda bad since it desynchs the Climbers and that's why you died. If you are recovering from that distance you should do one or more uairs. It protects you from above so you are safe and with it you can see if they are synced again.
At 6:40 he was holding a naner while you were chaingrabbing him. Diddy Kongs obviously want to drop the naner to stop your cg. To do so they hold shield and spam A to make it drop more easily. You should have abused this fact and started charging a smash after 100%. They aren't mashing enough when they are trying to drop the naner so if you start charging a smash there is no risk for them mash out in time. If you had done this, he wouldn't have escaped at kill %.

Cannot bother watching last set though. I hope I was at least some help for you

 

[TheSaintKai]

OK PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME I THOUGHT I HAD IT ALL FIGURED OUT BUT I DON'T AND I NEED SOME SERIOUS HELP. AM I PLAYING IT WRONG IS MY WHOLE STYLE A LIE CUZ I I JUST DON'T KNOW.

I don't know if this belongs here or the MU thread but I really need help/critique anything.

Getting styled on by Killock

Losing to Felix

A tourney win on Asa but I got lucky because i grabbed him out of a failed pluck. Not as important to watch.

But ya I would really appreciate critique from anybody.

A lot of the time you were dying to failed attempts to save nana...
practice just getting her back under pressure, lol. Other than that you desync VERY fluidly and I really enjoy watching you play.

I have no help to give you vs Felix, other than this general word of advice:
a LOT of times against ICs players, when your opponent leaves himself even remotely close to being grabbed (such as in the lag of Diddy's D-smash for example) if you dash towards them, they nearly always spotdodge the first few times. Mix up your dash grabs with dash shield and wait. Grab them after the spotdodge. I saw him do that repeatedly.
Your item play was beautiful, by the way.

Against Marth, if they start going Dolphin Slash spammy, you've gotta start predicting that ****. He only styled on you because your first two stocks were given away to failed punishes that he DS'd.

Honestly, you're better with our character than me, so I can't give you any advice besides learn to mindgame harder. ):

 

[Aefice]

hey, what are some good counters to diddys side b hump? i assume we can just shield grab diddy if he does the kick.


can someone explain the lux desync in detail?

what are the inputs?

thanks

 

[-LzR-]

No you cannot shieldgrab the kick if the Diddy does it right, he can act before you are able to do anything. Better thing to do is to pivot grab it. If he jumps and you and doesn't start the kick immediately, it's a shieldgrab since he can no longer land laglessly with it. You just have to notice how he does it and then punish. It's not a good move against IC.

 

[Hylian]

Diddys kick is a great move against IC's assuming diddy actually knows how to use it. You can't pivot grab the middle of it, so something like glide toss -> sideB from diddy is really hard to punish. You can't pivot or shield grab it if spaced correctly(you can only pivot grab the very end of it or the very start) and they will hit you out of you catching or even trying to instant throw the banana. It's a perfect midrange escape tool if you already committed to a desynch(which ics do a lot at mid range). If you are just walking around they aren't going to side-b at you.

 

[| Big D |]

Thanks for the feed back. My Synced and read game is pretty weak it seems =/

The closest thing I have to a mind game is waiting for the spot dodge after nado.

That charged upsmash on Diddy is something I didn't think of, and believe me I hate it when he drops a nana.

I will definitely start mixing up dash grabs and shield grabs, that just seems like such a fundamental part to the game. It's a bad habit to just run in and dash grab. Maybe I should pivot grab.

As for Marth I'm just going to camp him : p

Thanks for the feedback, love this character.

 

[Aefice]

lux desync? can someone help me?

how fast is it?

what are the exact inputs? i can't find a guide, in the thread lux removed his first post.

im keen to learn how to desync out of roll and spot dodge.

thanks

 

[-LzR-]

Where can I find the latest ICs videos? I can't seem to find anything recent from Vinnie anywhere...

 

[| Big D |]

Lots of good stuff from Collision

 

[-LzR-]

All right thanks.

 

[Aefice]

critique plz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kopJnRNVTTA

critique plz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kopJnRNVTTA

 

[Ruinn]

guys, im having a crisis here .-. more times than not instead of dash dancing then ice block to desync, i end up squall hammering. what am i doing wrong? :/

 

[dettadeus]

Pressing B before you release the control stick?

If you're gonna do a dash-dance to Ice Block desync, just take your thumb off the control stick right after you do the third dash, then press B.

 

[Iota]

Wario boards are discussing ICs. It'd be really helpful if you some of you guys helped with the discussion and stuff. Thanks in advance!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=319826

EDIT:whoops wrong QA thread sorry..x.x

 

[jd00824]

Not tryin to sound dumb, but I'm a Lucas man tryin to pick ICs as a secondary.....and I suck at chaingrabs.........any tips?

 

[dettadeus]

Not tryin to sound dumb, but I'm a Lucas man tryin to pick ICs as a secondary.....and I suck at chaingrabs.........any tips?

Learn the basics first. Knowing how to chaingrab won't be helpful at all if you can't get grabs, and almost everyone adopts a campy playstyle against Icies, so you won't get grabs very often.

This was the biggest mistake I made when I picked up Icies, lol.

Desyncing would even come before chaingrabbing. It should really be the last thing you learn after you have everything else down, even though it's one of their most important techniques.

 

[DeLux]

I disagree. Chaingrabbing should be the first thing learned.
Top level ICs have had high amounts of success with almost 0 desynced game (see early 9B and ESAM).

Learn it like any other character to be honest. Play people, do what it takes to win, adjust what doesn't work, repeat. Generally since CGing is guaranteed and directly translates into stock, it's a huge part of the "what it takes to win" factor.

 

[Translucent]

Should a player pick one grab and stick with it to go against all characters? I find it easier to b-throw d-throw on lights, b-throw f-throw on medium weights, and do the hobbling thing on heavies. Is it better to pick one and learn all the timings for it?

 

[-LzR-]

The way that works for you is the best. Though usually the best one to do is Pfthrow -> Nbthrow since it doesn't trip and is imo the most reliable one to do. If that doesn't work for a certain character, like Snake, learn another one for him. Generally do what works, all characters have slightly different spacing and regrab windows anyways so having a different cg doesn't really matter too much.

 

[Aefice]

so fthrow - bthrow or dthrow - bthrow are the only tripless cgs?

how much do tilting stages like lylat affect the timing of dthrow?

 

[-LzR-]

I do not know about Dthrow, I never use Dthrow since I find it impossibly difficult to use. And no that isn't the only tripless cg but is pretty much the easiest trilpess cg that cannot be mashed out.

 

[Ruinn]

bthrow dthrow light chars like mk
bthrow fthrow mid weights like olimar, diddy, falcon, falco, mario etc
hobble dem fatties like bowser dk snake and even rob

there is no guide to hobbling afaik, i actually taught myself the timing >_>

 

[Translucent]

With hobbling I find the footstooling part pretty easy for the most part. The timing isn't that strict for heavies.

 

[-LzR-]

Hobbling is bad though and it is never recommended. Me? I'm bad and I actually cannot hobble >_>

@Ruinn: Fthrow timing is the same for everyone, why would you only use it against middleweights "like olimar"?
And you can't hobble Bowser at all.

 

[Ruinn]

Hobbling is bad though and it is never recommended. Me? I'm bad and I actually cannot hobble >_>

@Ruinn: Fthrow timing is the same for everyone, why would you only use it against middleweights "like olimar"?
And you can't hobble Bowser at all.

fthrow timing isnt the same for everybody

also ive never actually hobbled bowser,so I wouldnt know. but im sure you can

 

[DeLux]

Ruinn, since you seem to be the expert, what's the timing difference on Fthrow for characters?

This is news to me

 

[Rubberbandman]

fthrow timing isnt the same for everybody

also ive never actually hobbled bowser,so I wouldnt know. but im sure you can

Fthrow timing is the same for everyone, yes. Spacing is different. If it isn't then my mind is indeed blown, since frame data supports it.

Bowser can only be hobbled by Dthrow, not Fthrow or Bthrow. Bthrow is the "Standard" hobble method.

 

[-LzR-]

Tbh no one should ever listen to anything related to chaingrabs from anyone except Lux. He knows his ****.

 

[DeLux]

There are people far more knowledgeable both in theory (e_alert/Guest) and practical application (Vinnie, ESAM, Smoom, Roller, Saint, anyone that can string more than 2-3 CGs together) than I am >_>

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah but they hardly answer stuff compared to you even though have been very helpful too.

 

[Ruinn]

well, news to me it's the same timing, felt different for other characters.

 

[DeLux]

Things that are quantitative: Timing (frames), Spacing (IGUs)
Things that are qualitative: Feel (???)

BTW I think you should write a guide on how to hobble Bowser consistently when you get around to trying it since you're sure you can
It FEELS hard to do consistently >_>

 

[Ruinn]

Things that are quantitative: Timing (frames), Spacing (IGUs)
Things that are qualitative: Feel (???)

BTW I think you should write a guide on how to hobble Bowser consistently when you get around to trying it since you're sure you can
It FEELS hard to do consistently >_>

you.... why you hate me and the knowledge I don't have of ic's?