General ICs Q&A Thread

[Rubberbandman]

That's why I prefer reading stuff instead of watching videos. I am terrible when it comes to videos. The point was that 9B still is walking around pretty close to his opponent. Far enough to avoid most options but close enough to grab in case they **** up. Anyways I tried yesterday to play kinda like that and I did a lot better immediately. Not sure if doing it right though.

Watch videos looking for purpose then. See how people move, adjust, space, and zone. Focus in on just one move at a time or something. Talk it out to yourself, pause and go back to check things you might think could help. When you get to the end, watch again and focus on the exact same thing, just in case. You can learn something from pretty much every video.

 

[-LzR-]

That's pretty much what I've been doing. It must be from inexperience with videos then or I just can't explain what I see in words good nuff. At least videos have made a difference for me so I think it's just fine.

Also, the Marth MU, wtf am I supposed to do? There aren't even many high level videos of that MU, at least I haven't found any. Some tips? What I currently try to do is to stay grounded a lot and try to powershield their fairs so I can close in an get that grab before getting combo'd off the stage.

 

[Latch]

Not sure if a Marth can outspace our blizzard wall with fair... if he can, then looks like powershielding is the way to go.

I would also suggest doing the 9B and trying to punish everything while walking around, but make sure to stay near the center of the stage, especially on FD (harder for him to get you offstage from the center).

Plus side is, Marth is pretty much the easiest char to CG, so you shouldn't be dropping those.

^^^don't pay attention to any of that if you want, I'm kind of a noob.

Also, I know that there was a hitbubble pac made in ~2010, but it didn't include specials and some other stuff. Did that ever get finished? Is there a complete hitbubbles .pac or video somewhere?

 

[TheSaintKai]

Marth can DI through blizzard for a f-air.
CGing is up to personal experience. No character is TRULY easier to CG.
(Except like Lucas, Ness, and Snake, I think. Lux said once that they have weird shaped hit boxes that make you have less frames to grab them. Or something. Idk. This might be wrong.)

It depends on what the Marth does. I assume you're talking about him just running up to your shield and tipper f-airing it. You basically have to read what he's going to do afterwards.

If he retreats the f-air:
Turn around, so you're facing away from him when you shield his f-air. When he f-airs you, Lux Desync out of shield (I can't remember if it's 1 or 2) and ice block towards him (you'll be facing him since the Lux Desync uses a turnaround.) Then chase the IB and shield. If he's good, he'll double jump. Punish accordingly. If he tries to f-air you or air dodge the IB, you get a grab.

If he goes through you:
Stay turned around, as if you were doing the above.
When he f-airs and travels through you, you can either risk getting a grab by reading his landing, or you can just n-air or b-air him OOS.

 

[Roller]

Zinoto vs. Roller

So here's me vs the new Diddy getting hyped. He's #3 on our PR (me being 4). He beat Lain last tourney and we play a lot, so he knows the matchup pretty well.

G1 I drop a grab and then catch a few bad breaks off poor decisions and him capitalizing well. =/
G2 is a pretty typical match between us. You can see me taking advantage of him going for the z drop instead of mashing on the first stock by finishing early giving him less opportunities to drop the banana like I mentioned a few posts back.

What I really want to know, is how the **** do you time the punish on spotdodge. Because I cleeeeearly read his spotdodge a ton of times but the thing is so damn good I can't punish it like I can vs like every other character.. is there a quick frametrap I can perform if I read the spotdodge at close range out of a banana trip get up? I think not being able to grab him out of spotdodge is REALLY holding me back vs him.

Would immediately following the throw (using the throw to desynch) with an IB from nana->dashgrab guarantee it? If not, would banana throw->short hopped IB chaser work? Damn. Why am I just thinking of these stupid things now..

Any other advice is appreciated! I was pretty shaky after ****ing up so bad the previous round, but I don't think it affected my play much except maybe on the first grab.

 

[lordhelmet]

Roller sucks .

 

[Roller]

<3 Reading up to improve the Lordyclimbers I see.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It's called practicing, or just playing so much that you learn the timing.

 

[Roller]

Is there a guaranteed frametrap though? Because I feel like one of the possibilities I threw out there might work. And would be a better option than taking the risk.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Migga you have frames to grab him, you don't NEED a frame trap.

 

[DeLux]

Throw out an IPG when you think he'll come out of spot dodge if you have the hard read. It might be some deceptive Z axis range thing, although I doubt it.

 

[Hylian]

Zinoto vs. Roller

So here's me vs the new Diddy getting hyped. He's #3 on our PR (me being 4). He beat Lain last tourney and we play a lot, so he knows the matchup pretty well.

G1 I drop a grab and then catch a few bad breaks off poor decisions and him capitalizing well. =/
G2 is a pretty typical match between us. You can see me taking advantage of him going for the z drop instead of mashing on the first stock by finishing early giving him less opportunities to drop the banana like I mentioned a few posts back.

What I really want to know, is how the **** do you time the punish on spotdodge. Because I cleeeeearly read his spotdodge a ton of times but the thing is so damn good I can't punish it like I can vs like every other character.. is there a quick frametrap I can perform if I read the spotdodge at close range out of a banana trip get up? I think not being able to grab him out of spotdodge is REALLY holding me back vs him.

Would immediately following the throw (using the throw to desynch) with an IB from nana->dashgrab guarantee it? If not, would banana throw->short hopped IB chaser work? Damn. Why am I just thinking of these stupid things now..

Any other advice is appreciated! I was pretty shaky after ****ing up so bad the previous round, but I don't think it affected my play much except maybe on the first grab.

I watched like 10 seconds.

Why throw bananas away? Ic's are better with bananas than any other character in the game. Popo throw -> nana ib is a guaranteed grab if the banana trips. Jumping in the air and throwing nana down or forward and making nana blizzarding in the air is like the safest approach and zoning possible and leads to either juggling or grabs.

Edit: Also just drop down nair kills diddy with sopo when hes under you and charging up b. Just drop down and nair when you see him release up-b and its a free kill.

Edit2: You don't edgeguard well at all. You just throw out smashes/attack or grab the ledge and hope he dies. Try zoning him on the ledge with the edge of blizzard mixed in with iceblocks. If he has a banana just bait the throw and shield it or nair him or ib it or instathrow it, you have way more options than him. Just keeping him on the ledge by zoning will force him to take a good amount of damage or put himself at risk of getting grabbed to get back on the stage.

Edit3: You aren't reading his spotdodges most of the time, he's reading your grabs. You always grab too soon when he's standing right in front of you and he spotdodges, either wait or run past his shield to force something and react accordingly.

Edit4: You could have saved nana almost every time he gimped her in the entire set. When he throws her or when he fairs her just run to the edge(you were close enough every time) and spam up-b. She will teleport out from under him and it will be hard for him to punish as he's offstage.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

Is bungee jumping good to gimp diddly -___-??? :D............. D:..................D:D

 

[-LzR-]

@Hylian

You mentioned Popo naner throw into a Nana IB. Does and IB when hitting a tripping opponent cause some kind of a jabreset or why is it so effective?

 

[Hylian]

@Hylian

You mentioned Popo naner throw into a Nana IB. Does and IB when hitting a tripping opponent cause some kind of a jabreset or why is it so effective?

Basically you throw the banana and ib with nana at the same time. You chase the banana and when it hits the ib will hit shortly after. It doesn't force a get-up animation but it puts them in enough hitlag to combo into grab where you would be too slow to grab from just the banana throw.

 

[-LzR-]

Oooh. Nice. I've had trouble comboing a banana throw into a grab now that I think of it.
Also, thanks for the insanely quick reply :o

Anyways, against Marth, is blizzard of any use? Whenever I use it he just runs up to me, fairs me out of it and kills me even if I am far away. If I am even close, he'll charge before the hitobox is even out o_o

 

[DeLux]

I think proper IBs will make or break the Marth matchup

I dislike Blizzard in it personally

 

[Hylian]

I like blizzard because it makes him jump and you know exactly where he will jump so you can usually just like..dashgrab him out of it lmao or just only blizzard with nana when he's close so you can space it and the cover his landing with an IB.

But basically, blizzard to make him jump and then cover landing with IB is my general gameplan against marth.

 

[-LzR-]

All right I'll keep that in mind. I do try to use IBs to be cover landings generally, but I haven't really though of using Blizzard to force them to jump that much. For me it's more like a way to protect myself, but not against Marth

 

[DeLux]

Specifically, I like to space my IBs slightly behind me when they get into the Air with certain Desync options.

If spaced correctly, Marth's Fair is like -3 on shield which is really +3 on grab. Since he has a frame one invincible option, it means it's an RPS to grab due to dolphin slash.

If you space the IBs correctly, the hitstun from IB will extend your grab window into longer frame windows for grab.

It's very hard to explain this without drawing it, but it's more or less what I used on Mike and Zex when I played with them before/at Apex respectively.

 

[-LzR-]

Please, Delux, do use your drawings, I'm still not getting the big idea. That pic could help me overcome my personal hardest MU... Please do it if you feel like it

 

[TheSaintKai]

What does RPS stand for?

 

[DeLux]

Rock Paper Scissors

Describes a scenario with clear counters and counters to counters and the counter to counter is the original option etc.

 

[Rubberbandman]

I just wrote up a ****ton on Roller's match, and the site crapped out on me, not writing again. >_>

 

[SSBBDaisy]

I would just love to see a 0 to death kill with ICs against a good snake/ganondorf player on a stage where they can't hobble them like yoshi/lylat. I find it very difficult to cg these 2 consistently from 0 to death (w/out using hobbling). The timing is just tooooo weird o_0.

 

[-LzR-]

Nothing wrong with their timing. Their hurtboxes are just so ****ed up that Nana pretty much has to be inside Popo to reliably regrab. The bthrow is basically the same as every other heavy weight. I agree those 2 are the hardest chars to cg for me. Actually they are the only chars I can't really chaingrab much at all so I don't even try those MUs much. (Lost to our best Ganon on FD last weekend, I couldn't cg so he didn't have such risky time doing stuff )

 

[Aefice]

why does popo have more knockback then nana? i was told to start ko'ing with popo.

whats optimal finisher after chain grab? does it differ from lights to heavies?

thanks

 

[Rubberbandman]

Popo does like, 1% more and almost insignificantly more knockback than Nana. The reason you kill with Popo is because Nana has less grab armor while she's holding them. #LuxCheck

The optimal finish for most is Slightly Charged Up-Smash.

 

[Hylian]

Less grab armor?....what?

 

[SSBBDaisy]

The biggest problem I have is even getting a chance to charge my smashes. I know I must be doing it wrong or too late cuz by the time I start charging my opponent mashes out. Can u buffer a smash charge when nana is regrabbing or something o_0?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

typically you want to cg to a percent where an uncharged smash will do, or do something like nana dthrow -> charge fsmash so you can charge while the dthrow is going on and they cant mash out

 

[SSBBDaisy]

hmmm. So do u start charging after u input the dthrow? Cause when nana gets the regrab and I try to charge she does a pummel headbutt and that is when they get out. :O

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yes you do. hit down and quickly hit forward on the cstick + hold Z to charge. ive seen a similar one for usmash but i dont know how that works

 

[Smoom77]

For upsmash it's the same exact thing except with up on the cstick, lol.

 

[DeLux]

typically you want to cg to a percent where an uncharged smash will do

Wrong. You want to CG while reading your opponent. If your opponent is not mashing, super charge smashes and kill them with less throws. That is the ideal situation since less throws means less chances to drop. If your opponent is mashing, there isn't a single throw situation where you would EVER have to kill with a Popo uncharged usmash. Regardless of what throw you should be using to kill, you will always be able to at least partially charge it. The videos where you see the Japanese killing with uncharged usmash is inefficient and unnecessary.


@ Nana Grab Armor- I think what Enda was referring to is the tendency of smashes from Nana to not have knockback while Popo is holding an opponent. This typically doesn't tend to happen when Popo is smashing from Nana, but every once in awhile I get a situation where some bit doesn't reset in the game (not sure which) where a similar effect happens with Popo doing the finisher, which means you now have to kill with something like a perfectly times smash attack to kill out of fthrow/bthrow or use an aerial to kill. It's only happened once to me in tournament that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

So when u put the input for the upsamsh (I know its C+Stick up + Z charges it during grab I already knew this XP) and nana does the 1 pummel u should be able to partially charge it without them escaping? Because there are some very good mashers at my school and when nana does that pummel they manage to break out right after it and my usmash misses.

This is why I asked if u can buffer the Usmash while nana regrabs. If I remember correctly ESAM did it at apex in one of his videos (I have to find it). Nana didn't pummel because he buffered the Usmash, which gave him time to charge it. Or maybe i'm just wrong. I've tried buffering it myself and haven't been successful doing it.

Also the curse of the IC main sucks >.<

 

[DeLux]

You need to buffer the throw before the smash input. Typically what I do is P Fthrow to Nana > Tap Up on Analog Stick (throw) > Attack Button (charge usmash) > release

 

[-LzR-]

How tight is the timing when chaingrabbing exactly? Are we talking about how many frame windows here? I know some characters have differences thanks to spacing, but let's assume optimal spacing. Sometimes it feels like it's 15 frames easy and sometimes it feels frameperfect hard. Just curious.

 

[Rubberbandman]

How tight is the timing when chaingrabbing exactly? Are we talking about how many frame windows here? I know some characters have differences thanks to spacing, but let's assume optimal spacing. Sometimes it feels like it's 15 frames easy and sometimes it feels frameperfect hard. Just curious.

Depends on the throw you're using, and which character you're throwing.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7281893&postcount=16

 

[-LzR-]

But that one only tells you the length of the throwing animation, but I can't make out any regrab windows from that one.