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General ICs Q&A Thread
- Thread starter smaci92
- Start date
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
That was fast...
Oh ****....when we have both do you think we could do that with popo, squall as nana to and jump IB to keep nana safe or grab with nana?
Oh ****....when we have both do you think we could do that with popo, squall as nana to and jump IB to keep nana safe or grab with nana?
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
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- 9,310
Just to clarify, Yellow Pikmin do not go through Blizzard wall on their own.
However, if there is a purple pikmin (or any other pikmin for that matter, but purple is most common for how blizzard walling works) blocking the hitboxes of the blizzard wall, it appears any Olimar fsmash can get through the wall.
This is remedied in two ways:
As Hylian mentioned, you retreat your blizzard wall slightly, which essentially gives blizzard more time to "catch" the fsmash
or
Play Whackamole and kill the pikmin (and fsmash)
However, if there is a purple pikmin (or any other pikmin for that matter, but purple is most common for how blizzard walling works) blocking the hitboxes of the blizzard wall, it appears any Olimar fsmash can get through the wall.
This is remedied in two ways:
As Hylian mentioned, you retreat your blizzard wall slightly, which essentially gives blizzard more time to "catch" the fsmash
or
Play Whackamole and kill the pikmin (and fsmash)
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
I find retreating Blizzard walls to be really sexy against Oli since they have to be very precise in their spacing to beat that.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I don't think it is possible...
There are several ways to do that.
You can do that from a hitlag desynch, which is the most useful way considering the follow-ups such as uair, hitlag desynch footstool grab/ib or hld to nair to grab etc.
The just walking around uairing I can do, though it's more fun with nairs. I am very comfortable with ics when they are desynched though so I don't know how hard it is for other people.
You can do that from a hitlag desynch, which is the most useful way considering the follow-ups such as uair, hitlag desynch footstool grab/ib or hld to nair to grab etc.
The just walking around uairing I can do, though it's more fun with nairs. I am very comfortable with ics when they are desynched though so I don't know how hard it is for other people.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Dear half (read: not all of you) of the ICs:
Why are you so hell-bent on using bthrow -> dthrow for anyone but heavies? (and even some of you still try that lol) The weight difference for dthrow as you get farther along in % requires you to really change your timing, and screws half of you up when trying to CG midweights.
As a more serious question, I need help doing aerial landing lag desynchs, I can do only the bair desynch somewhat consistently, and it's at a paltry 20% of the time at best lol. I want to be able to desynch from uair so I can create some better landing trap/grab opportunities.
Why are you so hell-bent on using bthrow -> dthrow for anyone but heavies? (and even some of you still try that lol) The weight difference for dthrow as you get farther along in % requires you to really change your timing, and screws half of you up when trying to CG midweights.
As a more serious question, I need help doing aerial landing lag desynchs, I can do only the bair desynch somewhat consistently, and it's at a paltry 20% of the time at best lol. I want to be able to desynch from uair so I can create some better landing trap/grab opportunities.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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If the IC is keeping up with the metagame, they shouldn't be using this CG. However Dthrow has a more lenient frame regrab window in comparison to all other CGs. Like absurdly high of 5 frames on snake up to like 70 percent., 4 frames to 110ish, 3 frames past 130 where you should then kill him.
If you LD1 out of landing lag, it doesn't matter which aerial it is. It really shouldn't matter which aerial it is because the input is the same for a buffered turnaround out of landing lag either :\
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Yeah, dthrow does seem lenient, but the fact that it varies in timing so much I think throws it off too much.
Also thanks for the clarification. Sounds like I'm just getting lucky pretty much lol, it seems harder than squall/Dash desynch/pivot desynch.
Also, Imma watch some of those Vinnie vids to see what this commotion is all about.
Also thanks for the clarification. Sounds like I'm just getting lucky pretty much lol, it seems harder than squall/Dash desynch/pivot desynch.
Also, Imma watch some of those Vinnie vids to see what this commotion is all about.
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
I use Bthrow Dthrow for heavies actually. Bthrow Fthrow for Middies, and Bthrow Dthrow for lights.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Okay, yeah, I can see the distinction, although timing is more a generic encompassment imo. So, what's this I'm hearing about ZSS and TL arguably beating ICs?
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Nana does not contribute towards the stale move queue. She is always on Popo's staleness.
For example:
If you do a Popo Dthrow, your dthrow will be 1x stale
If you do a Popo Fthrow, Nana Fthrow, your fthrow will be 1xstale
If you do a Popo Bthrow, Nana Uthrow, your Bthrow will be 1xstale, but your Uthrow will not be stale.
For example:
If you do a Popo Dthrow, your dthrow will be 1x stale
If you do a Popo Fthrow, Nana Fthrow, your fthrow will be 1xstale
If you do a Popo Bthrow, Nana Uthrow, your Bthrow will be 1xstale, but your Uthrow will not be stale.
Sieguest
Smash Master
Nana matches the stale queue of Popo.
If Nana fsmashes 5 times and Popo has a fresh fsmash, then Popo's fsmash remains fresh and Nana's fsmash will remain fresh after all of her fsmashes. On the other hand, if Popo fsmashes 5 times and Nana doesn't at all, then Popo fsmahed is staled by the appropriate factor and Nana's fsmash is also staled by the same degree.
I've been ninja'd....
i'm pretty sure nana's grab also has more range than popo's.
are there any other differences between the climbers?
also, you get more knockback when finishing a chaingrab if you throw the opponent before hitting, yes?
something i've noticed from watching good players...
something i've noticed from watching good players...
No, we throw because the instant you throw they cannot possibly mash out, meaning we can charge the smash longer. So yeah more knockback, but it's because we are charging the smash for longer.
I played Reflex the other week(still have to upload those videos) and he pretty much mashes faster than anyone in smash and couldn't break out of my grabs. People really need to stop chaingrabbing above 100%, you can kill the entire cast minus like DDD/DK/Charizard/Snake at exactly 3 digits. Snake dies at 105ish the others I go to 110.
I played Reflex the other week(still have to upload those videos) and he pretty much mashes faster than anyone in smash and couldn't break out of my grabs. People really need to stop chaingrabbing above 100%, you can kill the entire cast minus like DDD/DK/Charizard/Snake at exactly 3 digits. Snake dies at 105ish the others I go to 110.
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
Mr. game and watch
Smash Master
Does anyone hobble at all? Ever?
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
Yes, it can help unstale Fthrow and Dthrow slightly with the ice blocks, plus smash hobbling adds in alot more damage over time, just don't do it close to an edge and you'll be fine.Does anyone hobble at all? Ever?
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I hobble sometimes.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Hylian, people in my crew always mash out in the pummel animation time that is occurs when one starts charging a smash for the kill :\
Assuming no SDI, hobbling is a tripless turn around method. It is also technically not a chain grab in the true definition of the word, so it's my first back up plan if "chain grabs" are illegal. It's also technically not an infinite either if "infinites are banned"
Assuming no SDI, hobbling is a tripless turn around method. It is also technically not a chain grab in the true definition of the word, so it's my first back up plan if "chain grabs" are illegal. It's also technically not an infinite either if "infinites are banned"
Huh? Mjg/fino/zeton/doom/holms have never mashed out of my grabs. Who is mashing out of yours? It's not possible to mash out at that %, you are doing it incorrectly you dont need to pummel.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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You can't input a smash attack to charge without pummeling with the holding climber unless you input a throw first. This is fact. Stealth Raptor and Fino will mash out during the incidental pummel for sure. Fino's even mentioned to me that he did mash out of a couple of your grabs during the last time you played in tournament.
Based on the mashing algorithm Guest and I came up with, the person needs to average only half of the technically fully possible inputs to mash out of a grab during the incidental pummel animation at 110%.
Based on the mashing algorithm Guest and I came up with, the person needs to average only half of the technically fully possible inputs to mash out of a grab during the incidental pummel animation at 110%.
Come on lux. First of all, fino has not mashed out of my grabs unless i dropped them. Secondly you are being way too tunnel visioned. You throw them before you charge so they can't break out. They die at the %s I listed. You are doing it wrong because you are charging before you are throwing. It is litterally impossible to mash out of grabs done this way and you will kill almost the entire cast around 95%.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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But you won't kill Snake at 110 with a partial charge in that context :\
The ideal hit time on an fthrow is between 25-29 frames after initiating fthrow. Bthrow is substantially shorter so not really going to consider that one for the sake of charging.
Usmash is out on frame 13
That leaves 12-16 frames of charging. Or 1/4th or 1/5th charge time of the 60 frames to charge.
This is why I advocate fthrow > Uthrow / Usmash or Fthrow > Dthrow / Fsmash. You get longer charge times and guaranteed sweet spotted hits with longer charge times.
But even then they don't die that early unless you charge with the incidental pummel (the pummel will give you 30 frames of additional charge time assuming they don't mash out in that time). Based on my observations, you tend to use a combo of the incidental pummel > throw > smash OR the throw > partial charge smash.
But the draw backs for the former is that it's definitely possible to mash out during the pummel The draw back to the latter is you don't get as much charge time.
The ideal hit time on an fthrow is between 25-29 frames after initiating fthrow. Bthrow is substantially shorter so not really going to consider that one for the sake of charging.
Usmash is out on frame 13
That leaves 12-16 frames of charging. Or 1/4th or 1/5th charge time of the 60 frames to charge.
This is why I advocate fthrow > Uthrow / Usmash or Fthrow > Dthrow / Fsmash. You get longer charge times and guaranteed sweet spotted hits with longer charge times.
But even then they don't die that early unless you charge with the incidental pummel (the pummel will give you 30 frames of additional charge time assuming they don't mash out in that time). Based on my observations, you tend to use a combo of the incidental pummel > throw > smash OR the throw > partial charge smash.
But the draw backs for the former is that it's definitely possible to mash out during the pummel The draw back to the latter is you don't get as much charge time.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
i can consistently break out of a charge usmash started at around ninety. for a while lux thought he had found a way to kill at ninety, then i broke out three times in a row -shrug
Just tested and snake definitely dies at even below 110%(from the throw, throw puts him over) with just one pummel.
I really don't believe you can break out at 90% from one pummel into a throw. I generally kill people when they hit 3 digits save for like DDD and no one has broken out ever unless I just missed an input. I've play Stealth Raptor several times and 0-deathed him without problem, he's never mashed out of my grabs and I kill him the same time I kill anyone else, when they hit 3 digits. Fino has definitely never mashed out of one of my chaingrabs that I already had going, only ones where nana wasn't near me etc. I just played reflex who is considered to be by FAR the fastest masher and he couldn't break out of my chaingrabs once I started them.
We are obviously doing something different lux if they are breaking out of your grabs and not mine. I'm almost positive it's not possible to mash out of a grab from one pummel over 100%. Even snake, you can just dthrow, charge, bthrow, usmash and it kills him from 100% with DI.
I really don't believe you can break out at 90% from one pummel into a throw. I generally kill people when they hit 3 digits save for like DDD and no one has broken out ever unless I just missed an input. I've play Stealth Raptor several times and 0-deathed him without problem, he's never mashed out of my grabs and I kill him the same time I kill anyone else, when they hit 3 digits. Fino has definitely never mashed out of one of my chaingrabs that I already had going, only ones where nana wasn't near me etc. I just played reflex who is considered to be by FAR the fastest masher and he couldn't break out of my chaingrabs once I started them.
We are obviously doing something different lux if they are breaking out of your grabs and not mine. I'm almost positive it's not possible to mash out of a grab from one pummel over 100%. Even snake, you can just dthrow, charge, bthrow, usmash and it kills him from 100% with DI.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
next time we go to the same tourney, lets test it out
better yet, mm my rob vs your ics :D
better yet, mm my rob vs your ics :D
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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At 90%, it would take 30 inputs to mash out
At 110%, it would take 34 inputs to mash out
This might actually be significantly overestimated because pummeling has been shown to reduce inputs needed to mash, but Guest and I didn't factor for that in the algorithm
They will have at least 37 frames to mash (5 for Nana delay and 32 for Pummel + Grab IASA) in order to prevent buffering a throw out of pummel. That's assuming you buffer the charge out of grab, which isn't entirely probable to be frame perfect. The window might be even 10 frames longer if the buffer system holds true to mashing inputs (I suspect it does, but I haven't put in the actual math testing to figure that out because I already assumed it's mashable without the extra 10 frames for buffering lol)
There's been documentation of player's mashing near the max 2 inputs per frame: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hoO_OdK3Qw&feature=channel_video_title
Given that if the person mashing is doing it correctly with the cstick (each cstick input gives 3 inputs) and buffering the other buttons, it's entirely possible to average slightly below 1 input per frame if it's half the possible amount.
I wouldn't say this if I weren't 100% positive that I'm right. I theory crafted that I might be able to get away with the pummel to buffer Dthrow for a full charged fsmash on characters. It works if they don't mash or even mash slowly. But if they are mashing hard, it gets mashed out of pretty easily :\
At 110%, it would take 34 inputs to mash out
This might actually be significantly overestimated because pummeling has been shown to reduce inputs needed to mash, but Guest and I didn't factor for that in the algorithm
They will have at least 37 frames to mash (5 for Nana delay and 32 for Pummel + Grab IASA) in order to prevent buffering a throw out of pummel. That's assuming you buffer the charge out of grab, which isn't entirely probable to be frame perfect. The window might be even 10 frames longer if the buffer system holds true to mashing inputs (I suspect it does, but I haven't put in the actual math testing to figure that out because I already assumed it's mashable without the extra 10 frames for buffering lol)
There's been documentation of player's mashing near the max 2 inputs per frame: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hoO_OdK3Qw&feature=channel_video_title
Given that if the person mashing is doing it correctly with the cstick (each cstick input gives 3 inputs) and buffering the other buttons, it's entirely possible to average slightly below 1 input per frame if it's half the possible amount.
I wouldn't say this if I weren't 100% positive that I'm right. I theory crafted that I might be able to get away with the pummel to buffer Dthrow for a full charged fsmash on characters. It works if they don't mash or even mash slowly. But if they are mashing hard, it gets mashed out of pretty easily :\