General ICs Q&A Thread

[Attila_]

you can drop items in hitstun by holding l/r and pressing a.

GIMR showed in a metagame minute a while back.

although this is different from random dropping, as it occurs during hitstun, so it can't happen during a ic cg. random dropping appears to happen immediately after taking a hit (like, within the next few frames).

 

[Sieguest]

just for the record, i had a play around, and can confirm that diddy can drop his banana on any of the throws while being chaingrabbed, regardless of whether or not they have a hitbox.

that being said, sometimes he didn't drop it for a long time, leading me to wonder if there is a certain frame he can drop it from, and if a 'perfect' chaingrab meant that he wasnt able to drop it.

Yes, and yes.

Its been known he can drop it on will, but no diddys have mastered it to stop CGs iirc.

For good reason...

the fastest a player can intentionally drop an item (outside of Snake's grenade pull iirc) is the time it takes them to begin an airdodge and z-drop the item in those first few frames of the airdodge.

A(n) lucky/unlucky hit induced item drop occurs on the same frame the opponent is hit.

With that in mind, each of the ICs' throws has at least 1 frame of hitlag, for the sake of making a point, let's assume that all of the ICs throws only had one frame of hitlag (Only two of the four throws do but bear with me). The hitstun on the throws would be negligible, however a perfect CG entails getting a regrab the frame after the frame of the previous throw's hitbox. So if you're CGing perfectly there really isn't any room for Diddy to drop his banana, unless by a hit induced item drop.

 

[Capuchon]

This question has probably been asked, but, i don't find the fu***** timing for the Chain grab with the F-throw. It's been a week since I try xD.

 

[Sieguest]

This question has probably been asked, but, i don't find the fu***** timing for the Chain grab with the F-throw. It's been a week since I try xD.

And the quintessential thing that is told to everybody who asks the question that isn't really a question but more of a complaint about their inability to perform something right away is....

PRACTICE!

 

[FrozenHobo]

This question has probably been asked, but, i don't find the fu***** timing for the Chain grab with the F-throw. It's been a week since I try xD.

 

[Mike2]

This question has probably been asked, but, i don't find the fu***** timing for the Chain grab with the F-throw. It's been a week since I try xD.

i started ice climbers two weeks ago and the thing that helped me the most was reading that nana has 6(??? correct me if i'm wrong don't remember exactly) frames input lag. so with that in mind now practice the chaingrabs.

 

[Aefice]

cud some1 tell me about nana's teleport recovery?

how far vertically and horizontally can you teleport port her to you to help you recover?

 

[DeLux]

If you belay, your range from Popo is about 70 IGU's or about half the distance of Battlefield or 3 and a half stage builder blocks iirc. It's a radius around Popo so that covers horizontal and vertical

She must be out of hitstun though for this to work

 

[Attila_]

Now that mk is gone, I'm stepping up my usage of ics as a secondary for snake.

I've used them for ages, but only sparingly, fearing pocket mks.

Wanted to know how they fair at the marth mu. What stages are good/bad?

SOme general rules for the olimar mu?

Also, does anybody critique videos?

 

[Capuchon]

Of SSBB, is how many frames per second ?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

60 frames per second.

 

[DeLux]

Now that mk is gone, I'm stepping up my usage of ics as a secondary for snake.

I've used them for ages, but only sparingly, fearing pocket mks.

Pocket MKs are my favorite, except on RC/Brinstar

Wanted to know how they fair at the marth mu. What stages are good/bad?

RC/Brinstar are bad. I also dislike PS2 in this MU. Outside of that, I don't feel like the stage matters too much in this matchup.

SOme general rules for the olimar mu?

SH Blizzard Wall. Don't FH it ever. Don't blindly run at them or you should get pivot grabbed. If you MUST blindly run at them, don't do it blindly and actually cover it with an IB (or blizzard). When they land, shield cover all of their options nicely so unless there is a platform in the way, there's no real reason to try to Uair to juggle them. Just be deliberate and play the entire matchup out of blizzard wall/grab setup. If they Uair, you can SDI through it. Kill purples when you get the chance because if they SH Toss it before you get a wall up it could kill you.

Also, does anybody critique videos?

Most ICs will critique your videos. I try to stay away from it personally unless I get a specific request from someone.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

An Olimar was getting through my wall with yellows, what was I doing wrong?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Edit: didn't see the new page.

 

[DeLux]

How was he getting through, in the air on the ground?
They can't get through on the ground since blizzard is longer than yellow. Blue and Whites outrange blizzard just barely which is why SHing is needed for the wall for the most part.


If it's in the air, it's probably because you didn't shield grab or pivot grab his aerial approach.

I feel like people forget that when you're walling, you still have to play Brawl with one of the climbers at all times lol


Or they might be doing some janky way to beat blizzard wall we don't know about atm. I suspect it's out there because the Japanese ICs never use blizzard wall against Nietono. There HAS to be a reason for this, I just don't know what it is :\

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I was just doing the SH blizzard wall and every now and then his yellow fsmash pikmin would hit me or Nana through the blizzard.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

If you belay, your range from Popo is about 70 IGU's or about half the distance of Battlefield or 3 and a half stage builder blocks iirc. It's a radius around Popo so that covers horizontal and vertical

She must be out of hitstun though for this to work

What's the distance with squall? I think it's much smaller.

 

[B0NK]

I thought yellow pikimin f-smash can hit us through our blizzard wall if timed correctly.... but I don't remember... xD lol

I know it used to be old match-up knowledge of mine but I can't remember if it still holds through today. I'm pretty sure it can only hit when you are mistiming when you start your next blizzard.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Can anyone verify that^?

 

[DeLux]

I don't think it would go through blizzard wall if walling correctly. But we need more info before we can say what exactly is going on before I chalk it up to user error :\

 

[Hylian]

Olimars fsmash can hit a standing blizzard yes. So if he fsmashes with a yellow and you aren't moving backwards it will hit if spaced right.

 

[Attila_]

thanks for the help, lux.

did want to say something about blizzard walling; there was a japanese player i used to verse quite frequently in the mk/ic mu, and whenever i'd blizzard, he'd jump into it, sdi up and towards, and hit me with a dair. i'm assuming this might be why the japanese tend to steer clear of it.

also, does anyone know some videos of ics vs marth/oli/d3 playing the matchup correctly?

 

[DeLux]

Oh, that SDI trick is pretty well known and gets beaten out by Utilt/Uair/Bair/Nair/Angledftilt/ anything you can think of more or less with the free climber :\

That's one of those mid-late 2009 tricks that people used to counter blizzard wall because people forget that you have to play brawl while blizzard walling. The point of the Blizzard wall is for more or less you hit confirm and punish (via aerial/usmash/or grab if they're comatose). If you are multiple hitting them with blizzards from blizzard wall at close range (ie to where they freeze), you are doing something wrong. If you aren't getting punished for it, they are doing something wrong and you should do it until you no longer get away with it

I have a bunch of old videos of myself playing Fino on my youtube channel: www.youtube.com/legendoflux . I feel like I've gotten better at the matchup since then, but you get the general idea. The only videos I can think of off the top of my head for ICs vs. D3 would be Hylian playing friendlies with Tmacc ( www.youtube.com/hylian88 ), but that matchup doesn't get played much at higher levels because it's supposed to be horrendous for D3.

People take all kinds of different approaches to the Marth Matchup. If you watch mine with Pierce, I think it's a good example of playing the entire matchup from a technical wall standpoint (except for the fact that I lose due to blowing like every guaranteed grab read that I got, so you should ignore that part ). If you want a real treat, ESAM vs. Kadaj at Goldmine3 is like the greatest video I've ever seen of "the Combo Video" material lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUxBNQhSVOE

There are better marth videos out there for sure though, but it might be something different than you normally see everday

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thanks a lot Lux, I'll watch some of those later.

 

[Attila_]

yeah thanks lux, i'll study your videos after i study for some exams.

it's nice when good players respond promptly to questions, and take the time to answer them properly; you need to come over to the snake boards lol

 

[DeLux]

I'm bad though

So take my advice with a grain of salt

 

[TheSaintKai]

I'm bad though

So take my advice with a grain of salt

no

10no

 

[H1N1]

Over the weekend i watched a video of vinnie vs adhd doing this cool technique with popo. He would be on the edge, drop off then ice block then use his jump to land on the stage with no landinng lag. What are the inputs for this. The timing is pretty hard

 

[Smoom77]

On ledge>drop off>jump forward>IB as you are ascending.

 

[H1N1]

On ledge>drop off>jump forward>IB as you are ascending.

Hmmm idk if this is the technique i was describing. Ill have to post a video later

 

[DeLux]

I'd tell you how to do it, but Vinnie made like Gandalf and told me to keep it secret and keep it safe when we were talking about ledge play a little bit ago

Maybe Vinnie will namesearch and share with the world

But if you watch what he does, it's pretty self explanatory

 

[Rubberbandman]

Hmmm idk if this is the technique i was describing. Ill have to post a video later

Its either what Smoom said or

Ledge Drop (Back input) -> BReverse ib (Forward input, then b) -> Jump -> AD

Why didnt Vinnie show ME anything? WHY?

And yeah, they're pretty self explanatory either way.

 

[DeLux]

Just to clarify, a special reversal occurs when you input a direction after you input special.

You indicated a turn around special

 

[Rubberbandman]

YES OF COURSE. Thats what I mean with Breverse. If I said wavebounce ib, then I would have said "IB, then Forward input". But I placed the parenthesis there for clarification.

#slightly cranky typing

 

[DeLux]

Wave bouncing is combining the mechanics of a turnaround special AND a reversal special

 

[Dr. Tuen]

DeLux posted a really clear explanation for the various B-techniques on the ZSS boards. Just remember that it was written with ZSS in mind (hence 'whipping' being used to describe side B and 'paralyzer' to describe neutral B). Other than that, it's really awesome.

If you don't already know about it, he utilizes 1-9 notation to indicate control stick position. I was the one that requested that since I have directional dyslexia.

Enjoy!

---

Turn-Around Specials, Special Reversal, and Wave Bouncing

Spoiler

Ok in terms of specials, there are two ways to make your character do them in a specific direction:

Turn-around Special: Input - (within 15 frames of inputting special) Direction you want to face > Special
This simply turns around the user when they perform the special.

Special Reversal: Input - Special > (within finite amount of frames of inputting special, it varies over different moves) Direction you want to face.
Notice you input the direction AFTER you hit the special button. This turns around the user, but also creates a momentum shift in the opposite direction of what you were originally moving.


If you combine the two, you wave bounce:
Input - Direction (within 15 frames) > Special > Direction (within finite amount of frames).
Essentially, this gives you the momentum shift but also let's you special the same way your character was originally facing.



Side Special Wave Bouncing with 1-9 Notation:

If Facing Right, you would end up whipping right:
Input - 4Special > 6
The 4special turns you to face one way as a turn around special, while 6 acts as the reversal agent

If Facing Left, you would end up whipping left:
Input - 6Special > 4
The 6special turns you to face on way as a turn around special, while the 4 acts as the reversal agent.

Depending on which way you were drifting, it would cause a significant momentum bounce in the opposite direction.



Wave Bouncing Neutral Special Wave Bounce:
If facing right, you would end up using paralyzer right:
Input - 4 > 5 special > 6
The 4 acts as the turn around agent while the 6 acts as the reversal agent immediately after

If facing left, you would end up using a paralyzer left:
Input - 6 > 5 special > 4
The 6 acts as the turn around agent while the 4 acts as the reversal agent immediately after

Depending on the direction you were drifting would determine the direction you bounce.

For example, if you wanted to bounce right but do a move left, you would need to originally be drifting left, and depending on the direction you were originally facing while drifting, you would have to either reversal left or wave bounce left. By doing the reversal/wavebounce, you would shift your momentum right.

If you wanted to do a move left and bounce to the left, you would need to originally drifitng to the right. Depending on the way you were orginally facing while drifting, you would have to either reversal left or wave bounce left. By doing the reversal/wavebounce, you would shift your momentum to the left.

 

[Vinnie]

Oops meant to post in this thread, not the other. Delux you can post the vid if you want. It's still unlisted and I can't make it public til I get home, at like 10:20est.

Edit: the timing is (assuming right ledge)

Tap right
Tap left
Neutral b

All really fast. Then you can jump back onto the stage, you can even jump + uair/bair/nair and it still cancels.

 

[H1N1]

I can do it now. Its ledge>back>b reversal>jump. You have to input these all pretty fast. Finding the timing is the hard part

 

[H1N1]

Actually what vinie said is bbetter

 

[Vinnie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCcx0KfmDFg