General ICs Q&A Thread

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I have no tripping codes.
We don't use tripping down here.


and whats the best CG when tripping is legal?

edit:
don't question the tripping!

 

[DeLux]

I would think the best one would be Dthrows > some pivot/dash grab in terms of frame windows and ease of spacing.

I don't know for sure since I actually play Brawl instead of a modded version

 

[Hylian]

When has a top 5 IC faced MJG in tourney other than Lain?

I've played MJG 4 or 5 times in tournament. He also 2-0ed cheese at the last SiiS, and plays lux a lot.

As far as I know, the only top MKs that have lost to at least 1 IC player have lost to many.

As far as I know, pretty much every top mk players loses to ics save M2K. M2K is a bit of an anomaly because he is the best player in the world, if I thought IC's went even with mk, I certainly don't think any IC player is a as good as m2k.

No ICs ever beat me in tournament, therefore Pikachu is even or in Pikachu's favor.

You lost to Ally at Pound. You played me at whobo and planked me. As far as I know you haven't even played any of the other top IC players in tournament. Not to mention you are a much better player than I am in general, I would really like to see you play lain, who is more on your level.

You can't keep using 1 person as an excuse for MUs, it simply doesn't work. Otherwise Pikachu loses to...Lucario, Olimar, and Diddy. Diddy would lose to Ike. One player doesn't make a MU bad, and stop using that ****ing logic. Just because you (lux) get impatient and decide to dash in a MU where you literally have to walk and throw projectiles at HIS landing to give him damage doesn't mean it is a bad MU. You complain you lose it and then don't change anything (After this Hylian is gonna say 'but I lose to him too' and I know, I'm just making a point).

You can't use one player to define a match-up, but you certainly can gain a lot of knowledge from them if they play the match-up often. Excluding the highest level of the match-up would be silly, we should take into account several different examples of match-ups, but sometimes its hard because they just don't happen that often.

In the case of toon link, MJG is a very good source to go off. I have played the other toon links a lot, and consider myself very good and experienced at the match-up. I take MJG down to last stock(or used to when I practiced) and have somewhat close games but he always beats me unlike the other toon links. At HD:R he beat lain in winners, and then beat me 3-1 in loser finals after I beat lain. Since then I've played him 4 or 5 times in tournament, often taking him to last game, but never prevailing with IC's. I've tried many many different approaches to the match-up and studied the **** out of it, all just to lose several times more. At pound, I played kingtoon and beat him 2-1 using my knowledge of the match-up, played mjg after that and he 3 stocked me. I watch MJG play other IC's and he does the EXACT same thing to them as he does to me, there is just no counter to it unless he just makes a stupid mistake and gets grabbed or kills himself.

He beats lain. He beats me. He beats cheese. He beats lux...no ic even comes CLOSE to beating him. At all. And MJG isn't considerably better than lain or I, TL just wins the match-up by a good margin.

Are you implying no top TLs/ZSSes/etc have lost to ICs?

Not exactly. Just that they don't lose as often. Whens the last time Gnes or ADHD lost to an IC player? Last time ADHD played lain, he 3 stocked him twice in a row IIRC. I don't think Nick Riddle has even played a top IC player so I can't really comment on that. MJG NEVER loses to IC's, and the other TL's very rarely do. Trela/Leemartin I can't remember ever losing to an IC player. Nicole has lost to me once, but 2 stocks lain consistently in tournament, usually beats me consistently in friendlies, and beat lux. Razer has never lost a set to an IC's, Ally's snake has an extremely positive record against all the IC players. etc etc.

Other characters do MUCH better against IC's usually than top mk players do. Blaming this on match-up knowledge is just speculation. Sorry, I just can't logically see that MK is IC's worst match-up. This isn't even going into gameplay.

 

[FrozenHobo]

so, to throw another wrench into the fray, if MK is banned and people start playing more characters, how do you think that will impact ICs competitively?

 

[DeLux]

I agree with everything Hylian has said except:

You refer to me in these discussions like beating me matters lol
I am nowhere near the caliber of players that you guys are so it's not much of an accomplishment


Frobo:

I lose to TL, ROB, and Peach the most, so I imagine it will be the end of my tourney experience more or less. For most ICs, it would probably help

 

[Mr. game and watch]

...

this is wrong

stop giving out incorrect answers to questions in the Q&A thread please

Bonk hit it on the head more or less. You'll get a feel for getting Nana to jump and things like that as you get more experience with the character.
Don't forget, if you the situation calls for it, you could also belay her out of danger. Especially since most of the moves used to kill nana are laggy, it would minimize (but not eliminate) the punishes for the rogue belay.

This isn't controlling her...

She always runs to you, you can't control that.
When you are seperated you can't like make her usmash or anything, but sometimes she randomly throughs stuff out.
A few times my popo died and she was still on stage.
She taunted.
Wow.

Your only "controll" is slight influence on how she trys to come to you.
If you jump above her, she'll jump to you.

But that's not controlling her that's more encouraging her to jump at you as opposed to running to you, which sometimes can save her.

Also I said "SOMETIMES your best option is to run to her, SOMETIMES it's only to watch her die."

I couldve added information about how when she's hit offstage and you're, say, recovering horizontally, and she flys through you, if you belay at the right time it cancels her momentum.

But that doesn't directly relate to his question.

 

[DeLux]

This isn't controlling her...

She always runs to you, you can't control that.
When you are seperated you can't like make her usmash or anything, but sometimes she randomly throughs stuff out.

This is incorrect. I don't think she randomly throws stuff out. She will either run towards you, jump towards you, or IB to recover or use solo Belay to recover. It's predictable and can be manipulated.

A few times my popo died and she was still on stage.
She taunted.
Wow.

This indicates you don't understand how Nana operates. This has nothing to do with being separated. If you read some of the testing done by Guest, this is defined by a separate state.

Your only "controll" is slight influence on how she trys to come to you.
If you jump above her, she'll jump to you.

If you can predict how she acts and do actions on your end to illicit a response from her, you are effectively controlling her. The question asker didn't make a distinction between control and influence, so there's no reason why you should be doing that. He didn't say "Do I have enough control over nana to make her roll through my opponents attacks when separated." He was talking about how to make Nana avoid getting killed by the opponent when separated. You essentially reflected there's nothing you can do except run to save her when this is simply not true.

But that's not controlling her that's more encouraging her to jump at you as opposed to running to you, which sometimes can save her.

Again, the question was, "can you kind of control Nana". You're just looking a way to cover your poor answer by splicing a definition between "control" and "influence".

Also I said "SOMETIMES your best option is to run to her, SOMETIMES it's only to watch her die."

Don't BS me. This is what you really wrote:

Nope nana just silly:/
your best option is to run to her sometimes.
Your only option is to watch her die at others:/

You actually changed how you quoted yourself to try to reflect better on what you said. You set it up in a binary as the first option or the second option. There are all kinds of options you can take that aren't those two things.

I couldve added information about how when she's hit offstage and you're, say, recovering horizontally, and she flys through you, if you belay at the right time it cancels her momentum.

This is wrong. You can't Belay Nana out of hitstun. You can Nana brake her with aerial dodge and then try to belay. But again, you don't understand the character enough and really are doing people a disservice by giving people bad information. It needs to stop.

 

[TheSaintKai]

The only thing I'd like to say is that I took Lee to his last stock mid percentage and I'm a bit of a scrub.
He was Lucario, btw. Tbh, this was friendlies, so I don't know how much he was sandbagging, but I asked him to play serious.
I don't think Lucario is a bad match up.
But if someone would kindly provide me with some evidence as to why he is, I will gladly believe them because I know very little about Lucario outside of that one match. x)

 

[2-DJeff]

lmao esam did you really say that since no IC have ever beat you in tourney that means the MU is even? lol SMH really? lmao i would agree its 55:45 IC at best but its not even lol. I just find that extremely funny. dont mind me just reading some non sense ^_^

 

[TheSaintKai]

lmao esam did you really say that since no IC have ever beat you in tourney that means the MU is even? lol SMH really? lmao i would agree its 55:45 IC at best but its not even lol. I just find that extremely funny. dont mind me just reading some non sense ^_^

I think he was being sarcastic. But it's hard to tell through the internet. x)

 

[Exceladon City]

This isn't controlling her...

She always runs to you, you can't control that.
When you are seperated you can't like make her usmash or anything, but sometimes she randomly throughs stuff out.
A few times my popo died and she was still on stage.
She taunted.
Wow.

Your only "controll" is slight influence on how she trys to come to you.
If you jump above her, she'll jump to you.

But that's not controlling her that's more encouraging her to jump at you as opposed to running to you, which sometimes can save her.

Also I said "SOMETIMES your best option is to run to her, SOMETIMES it's only to watch her die."

I couldve added information about how when she's hit offstage and you're, say, recovering horizontally, and she flys through you, if you belay at the right time it cancels her momentum.

But that doesn't directly relate to his question.

Hey, you. Yeah, you. Play the character, learn the nuances and then discuss stuff. If you're not sure about something, ask if you're wrong and to kindly be corrected.

Plain and simple. Stop giving Lux a hard time with your nonsense. Capiche?

 

[2-DJeff]

I think he was being sarcastic. But it's hard to tell through the internet. x)

he is right you cant judge off one player though. but like i said im not in this im just here to read the arrogance and saltiness on other peoples opinions lol. Some of you guys logic for your opinion makes me laugh though lol

 

[Roller]

ICs vs Pika is 70:30.


I site me vs Z as proof.

 

[TheSaintKai]

ICs vs Pika is 70:30.


I site me vs Z as proof.

ELL OH ELL
Best.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

My quote of myself wasn't an excact quote but it's the same thing....

You can't multi-quote on smashboards mobile cause it's bad.

The only why I could multi-quote would be to copy and paste and do the BBC, but I can't nab stuff from other pages/while on a quote screen.

However, what I said is like, the same.

Nope nana just silly:/
your best option is to run to her sometimes.
Your only option is to watch her die at others:/

and just now:
"SOMETIMES your best option is to run to her, SOMETIMES it's only to watch her die."

In niether case have I called either of these your only option, nor could I see how you find that I'm saying that and these posts are different.

I am wrong that I said belay cancles her momentum.
The nana-braking is via airdodge.
I thought it was belay because that kinda makes total since to me when she gets into sync range.
But that's not the case.

I saw the nana information when he first posted it, but had to turn off my phone and forgot it ever existed.

I'll go read it right now cause that's super helpful.

I still say she just randomly throws out crap.
The reason she may usmash when we're seperated my be because of whatever state she's in, but this is not something I can control.

Again, there's not a way to control her...
When I first joined I confused desyncsed and seperated and wondered "WTF why won't she utilt when I uair!?!?!!!??!?!"

I think a simmilar thought process can come from another new player.

I can't say you can't control her attacks 100% though, because I've yet to read that thread.
But I know when were seperated there's not trick to do like bdacus>belay>fastfall and nana will sidestep while seperated.

You cannot control her worth a flip, if any at all, if we can even consider that controlling.

 

[DeLux]

nonsense about semantics

IF you knew there were other options, why would you only list that there was nothing he could do. Either you're now intentionally giving him incomplete info (which you strongly hinted at by saying you could have given a different answer), or you gave him a bad answer.

Either way it needs to stop.

I am wrong that I said belay cancles her momentum.
The nana-braking is via airdodge.
I thought it was belay because that kinda makes total since to me when she gets into sync range.
But that's not the case.

I accept your retraction. I've had to retract many things I thought to be true through testing, so it would be a double standard for me to not allow the same for you.

I saw the nana information when he first posted it, but had to turn off my phone and forgot it ever existed.

However, ignorance is not a reasonable excuse here to post bad information. You need to learn the character first before you can answer mechanic based questions.

I still say she just randomly throws out crap.
The reason she may usmash when we're seperated my be because of whatever state she's in, but this is not something I can control.

She will not randomly throw out crap when you are in a separated state. She follows the rules and performs the actions that I mentioned. Again, you are trying to argue out of ignorance

Again, there's not a way to control her...
When I first joined I confused desyncsed and seperated and wondered "WTF why won't she utilt when I uair!?!?!!!??!?!"

I think a similar thought process can come from another new player.

Your misunderstanding doesn't imply his misunderstanding of terms.

I can't say you can't control her attacks 100% though, because I've yet to read that thread.
But I know when were seperated there's not trick to do like bdacus>belay>fastfall and nana will sidestep while seperated.

You cannot control her worth a flip, if any at all, if we can even consider that controlling

Why do you keep saying things like controlling her attacks. You control the direction she is going by moving her destination (aka popo). Again, you are making an arbitrary distinction that the person asking the question did not make. Your answer suggests that there was nothing he could do about his opponent killing Nana when separated when this is clearly not the case.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

When they hit nana and popo and nana are seperated is there a way I can kind of control nana? Cuz nana is stupid and runs into everything the opponent does and I wish I could control her at times too lol.

From my expierience (which granted isn't a whole lot competitively) when me and nana are hit, all I want to do is make her dodge the opponent, or squal to recover, or depending on the way we were hit (if she's below me) I want her to belay up to me so we are no synced.

At this point I could care less if she follows me left and right, because that's all the control I kinda have on her.

Often times she'll IB or belay if she's off and I'm on the stage.

But in said question, both characters have been hit.
We both want to recover, and he wants to stop her from being hit by the opponent.

Unless your opponent is 100% trash at this game, as long as the 2 of you are seperated you can't do anything.

My first post was kind of a misread of his question, sure, I didn't take into account the fact that both characters have been hit.

But what if, in said situation, you're fsmahed and it sweetspots popo and sourspots nana.
You're both recovering on either side of the stage.

Your oppenent now has 2(logical) options.

Alot of the time it's to go gimp nana while popo recovers, then **** sopo cause he da worss.

If this type of thing is happening, you can't do ANYTHING to control nana.
You're both falling.
And both attempting to recover.
You can't do anything but say byebye nana.

 

[DeLux]

You are making all kinds of ad hoc scenarios to make yourself right when the asker of the question didn't do that. He simply wanted to know if we had some kind of control over Nana to avoid her getting killed. We do have some kind of control. Stop arguing otherwise.

Stop trying to cover for your poor answers by creating elaborate scenarios that weren't asked.

 

[jbandrew]

Man, Delux goin in with these answers lol. Alrighty guys, I got it; so basically if I want nana to recover I should go to her so she can DI towards me more or something? ALSO how can I make her IB?? Can I ever make her AD? Lol, so many questions .

 

[DeLux]

Sort of. If you go too far close to her while she recovers off stage, I've noticed that she stops DIing towards the stage, while if you were further away from the edge of the stage, she would otherwise recover normally. Meaning one option available for Nana Guard Breaking would be to sit from the middle to the far side of the stage and shoot IBs to try to interupt your opponents attack until she's close to the stage and THEN going to her.

She IBs on her own if she's in a recovery state offstage. It's due to the slight boost in the air one gets from IBing. So the best answer would be for you to get separated and have her recover. The IB and Belay are on the more random side (in that I don't understand specifically if there's an AI trigger that I don't know about) and I guarantee will kill you unintentionally at least once. This is known as an ICs Combo Video moment.

To my knowledge, you can make her air dodge unless she's in sync range.

 

[B0NK]

Yeah I agree with DeLux, the only time you'll risk going after her is if you know she can't make it back on her own (whether you disrupt the opponent or not).

Also watch for if she loses her double jump when you're trying to recover, because there will be situation when Nana is hit away, then you are hit towards her shortly after. She'll have used her second jump while she was trying to recover without you, even though she is no synced.

You don't wanna then use your second jump, to see her fall to her death while you are left with some of the worse recovery moves in the game as SoPo lol.

Nana braking is an important concept to not only stop her from flying pass you, but also to quickly sync her to you so you can recover.

You'll have situations where you might have got hit separated, and nana didn't register your DI input, so she'll be well below you, up to you if you wanna d-air to her then quickly side-b back to the stage. (oh and also learn how to recover with side-b and mashing it like it's luigi's tornado, except this tornado is SO much better in terms of the distance you can get out of it! xD)

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I was countering the argument of "MJG never loses to ICs, therefore TL is -2"

 

[MVD]

Why do IC players ***** about everything Omg x.x

 

[Smoom77]

I've beat Trela once.

 

[TheSaintKai]

I've beat Trela once.

You're much better than me. :D

 

[Smoom77]

Why do IC players ***** about everything Omg x.x

Cause we have a more complex character than stupid snake

 

[MVD]

LOL yeah ok sure guy I learned plenty with ICs in a day its not that hard

 

[Smoom77]

Ok now go beat esam

 

[MVD]

I never said I could and never said I picked them up for ESAM to start with, ICs are not that hard to pick up sir that is all I'm saying

 

[Smoom77]

stop assuming that i'm assuming, bro

 

[MVD]

Then what's the relevance of bringing ESAM into the convo sir? I'm sorry I have never heard of you and I'm sorry if me saying ICs is an easy character is offensive to you but they are at least for me

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Then what's the relevance of bringing ESAM into the convo, sir? I'm sorry I have never heard of you, and I'm sorry if me saying ICs is an easy character is offensive to you. But they are, at least for me.

grammar fixed.

(I'm not answering I'm defending)
OK.
1. Smoom is the 3rd best ICs...
If you've never heard of him you've never looked at Miles' chart of top 5 of each chars.

2. You can learn some IC stuff easily in no time.
But it does NOT mean you're good.

I highly doubt you're consistent with all of the CGs, or with any more than 2 desyncs.
ICs are definantly the most technical character to play(>= olimar)
and quite possibly the hardest to learn.

You sir, are wrong.
About.
Smash.

 

[Vinnie]

If you've never heard of him you've never looked at Miles' chart of top 5 of each chars.

LOLOLOLOLOL

Smoom is really good imo. But I don't really see him as 3rd best. But the fact that you rely on something like a list that some guy made as a reference is amusing xD.

 

[Smoom77]

Yeah, GW please stop refering to that topic.

Lol get used to me MVD. I'm totally joking.

 

[MVD]

If that's what you think then cool I don't pay attention to a flawed list lol Smoom I know you are I LOVE ppl who **** around like you cause that's all I do... Most of the time I look forward to meeting you, I still think ICs are easy to learn

 

[Smoom77]

Yeah, I saw you at Whobo. I wish i went out and MMed more people because that was my only national I get to go to. :/

But yeah, I still hate on people who second ICs.

Until they're good.

 

[Hylian]

Every character is easy to learn.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Meh, 3 of the 5 top ICs don't main the character.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I see smoom as third best via videos/tournament placings/experience.
I agree with that lists top 3 for most characters.
I see smoom hylian and lain as top 3 for sure.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Not sure if or...