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General ICs Q&A Thread

Mr. game and watch

Smash Master
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Sep 10, 2010
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Tyler, Texas
^i do
If I am the WORST ice climber player, and I fought Vermanibus, I'd probably lose, despite the 100:0 MU.

But smoom would probably beat VERM.
There's Character v. Character MU's, but there's always Player v. Player.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a characters only what the player makes it.
Therefore MU's should only be based on the full potential of the character and the full potential of the character.
But I think it depends on the players skill.

:phone:
 

2-DJeff

Smash Master
Joined
May 9, 2010
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Salty squadHQ,FL
Mr. game and watch
i could right up a MU summary if you would like. i got alot of knowledge from that mu from playing renki all the time. and ed every once in a while.
Just let me know. also guys i have solution to your TL problems because it took me mid match game 3 to figure out how to stuff toonlinks camping game. just let me know if you guys would like to know. im open to share
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,303
hey guys i got third at the most recent nll mk bann tourney. beating mampam(diddy/snake), seibrik(wario), 2nlio(toonlink) and almost halerd. pretty fun tournament videos up soon.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309480&highlight=2-djeff
Mr. game and watch
i could right up a MU summary if you would like. i got alot of knowledge from that mu from playing renki all the time. and ed every once in a while.
Just let me know. also guys i have solution to your TL problems because it took me mid match game 3 to figure out how to stuff toonlinks camping game. just let me know if you guys would like to know. im open to share
Good work Jeff, but the results aren't really a Q or an A for the Q&A thread :\


You should share, but to be honest, TL's camping game isn't the overall issue with the matchup imo. Now, if you figure out a way around them stuffing our Uair game with iBomb, I'm all ears. If we get the uairs back, it's doable. But no damage is an issue
 

2-DJeff

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Salty squadHQ,FL
Good work Jeff, but the results aren't really a Q or an A for the Q&A thread :\


You should share, but to be honest, TL's camping game isn't the overall issue with the matchup imo. Now, if you figure out a way around them stuffing our Uair game with iBomb, I'm all ears. If we get the uairs back, it's doable. But no damage is an issue
yea i know when Tl dose Ibomb you have to challege it and get hit by it and mash up air. Not even joking. The cost for getting hit by the bomb is worth giving TL 18 percent per double hit. but yea upair is key to that match just upair out of getting hit by bomb. take the hit on purpose. you reward is great for it
 

Roller

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Mar 21, 2008
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Just follow the grime...
Jeff, if you want to write up a matchup summary, that would be great, but pleeeeeease put it through spellcheck and have a peer edit your grammar before posting it. I'm all for you helping out, but I'd prefer not to make my eyes bleed in the process.
 

Smoom77

Smash Master
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Provo, UT
We're sorta doing that right now in the BBR Panel. I think we will release the discussions eventually.
 

Prawn

Smash Master
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Apr 27, 2009
Messages
3,031
Why the **** are all these discussions in a back room? What the he'll are we hiding? >_< you guys put too much thought into this. I've learned more from the occasional lain/meep/hylian post then any of your long discussions

:phone:
 

Smoom77

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Not the bbr, the BBR panel for matchups.

Well lain, meep aren't on it so you can't get your favorite little post from them. Too bad. You get our long discussions that have a lot of info and we worked hard on.
 

Prawn

Smash Master
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Messages
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Not the bbr, the BBR panel for matchups.

Well lain, meep aren't on it so you can't get your favorite little post from them. Too bad. You get our long discussions that have a lot of info and we worked hard on.
Why not just do it in the open so everyone can contribute? Seems like you just want your little club so you can feel important when most if not all of you are mediocre players at best.


Whatevs

:phone:
 

Mr. game and watch

Smash Master
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*looks at top 5 players thread*
*see's that smoom is number three and meep is not.*

mediocre?
The third best IC, being called mediocre AT BEST, by someone not even on the list.
The selected people have MU expierience and can make the whole list.
I'm sure when it's published were free to discuss all we want about it.
MU's are never final...
This will just put us at a nice place were all the listed MUs are remotley acurate and we have something easy to start with.

MU's change.
Therefore the list must change.

:phone:
 

Prawn

Smash Master
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mr game and watch out of active ice climber players right now they pretty much all suck, and anyone who thinks differently should post results that tell me otherwise. Every tournament I've ever seen any of you do decent at always has good players conspicuiously absent(or is mk banned loooool) meanwhile I place top 5/top 7 in a region with two of the top 5 snakes in it(according to that thread) among other national level players that CP me with characters hard.(a region that cheese has never broken top 3, despite being on that list as well) and then get cast as a scrub? Come get top 3 in my region. I doubt smoom/lux/2d Jeff or any of you could do it. Which will only make it all the sweeter when I start placing because I'm taking this game seriously again



Come to the realization that you all suck and we should be trying to help each other out instead of making private groups to talk about matchups. But I must have no info because I'm not on a player made top 5 list of ice climber mains :troll:


Vinnie and future are the only good active ice climber mains, and lain and hylian if they still do anything.

The rest of you UNDERPERFORM

:phone:
 

Smoom77

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Loooooool. Ok. I never asked for top 3.

Lux can settle this because I don't know how to do anything.

GW's post didn't help.
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
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Feb 17, 2008
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Pika?
*****, the project is FOR the BBR. Last time we did a MU chart it didn't work since not all of the characters were equally represented. Now, the BBR asked panels to be created. This is so that it doesn't go on the forums, have people who shouldn't be listened to (due to inferior competition, lack of knowledge, lack of skill, whatever) and the people on the open forums collecting their few smartest and listening to only their opinions anyway.

It isn't as secretive as the last one, so we can relay any info we have back here pretty much if we want to. Re-****ing-lax. Also, I'm sad I'm not on your list Prawn :(
 

Mr. game and watch

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@prawn you do realize that the state we're in, not just region, but state has Gnes, UltimateRazer, UTDZac, ^that esam dude^, I think poltergust is moving back here, smoom being a top IC is here, Vinnies moving here, Trela lives here etc...
Our state is super stacked, let alone our reigon.


Adding to what esam said, public threads die.
Curse of the IC boards remember?
They all die.
We have a MU thread.
It's dead.
Make a new one? We'll discuss two MU's and it will die.
Getting a select group of people who are obliged to discuss it is a fantastic thing.
I think you kinda salty you didn't get picked...

:phone:
 

Prawn

Smash Master
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*****, the project is FOR the BBR. Last time we did a MU chart it didn't work since not all of the characters were equally represented. Now, the BBR asked panels to be created. This is so that it doesn't go on the forums, have people who shouldn't be listened to (due to inferior competition, lack of knowledge, lack of skill, whatever) and the people on the open forums collecting their few smartest and listening to only their opinions anyway.

It isn't as secretive as the last one, so we can relay any info we have back here pretty much if we want to. Re-****ing-lax. Also, I'm sad I'm not on your list Prawn :(
IC mains, i feel like you would go pika in any matchup that isnt hard as bawls for him at a top level, maybe im wrong


either way i wish somebody would post some of this secret powerful knowledge you all seem to have cause you're all s0o0o0o0 ****.
 

Prawn

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I think you kinda salty you didn't get picked...

:phone:
again you being an idiot, i wouldnt even participate if i were picked because i think its stupid.


and for discussion heres some matchup numbers in my scrubby awful never beaten anyone ice climbers opinion(under unity ruleset):

ics are always first number

metaknight - 35:65
snake - 50:50(maybe in his favor slightly)
diddy - dont have a solid opinion on this although i dont think its **** adv. either way
falco - 60:40
Marth - 60:40
Lucario - 40:60
ROB - 40:60
Toon link - 40:60


those are just a couple important matchups i wish people would give more trixies on without having to be asked or told that they are good before they give them up
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
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Pika?
I understand ICs better than most IC mains, even though he is only my secondary.

That being said, of course I play pika more than ICs, I MAIN PIKACHU AND SECOND ICS! Why would I play ICs in a MU I'm more comfortable with Pika (Besides MK, I'm stupid, but now I'm only using Pika for MK again)
 

ch33s3

Smash Lord
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Jun 23, 2008
Messages
1,756
Prawn, I top 5 your region with decent consistency lol.

Just ask stuff, people will answer. I don't randomly vomit info, I just get involved in whatever discussions are happening lol.

I also strongly disagree with most of your MU ratios lol.
 

Prawn

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Prawn, I top 5 your region with decent consistency lol.

Just ask stuff, people will answer. I don't randomly vomit info, I just get involved in whatever discussions are happening lol.

I also strongly disagree with most of your MU ratios lol.
Yeah i also think you're better than almost everyone on here imo considering youve beaten people who top 5 nationals. last year when i was playing a lot i was top 5ing with decent consistency in my region as well but thats still garbage. Im hoping to step up to top 4ing with decent consistency before the end of october, maybe even better.

And thats fine, tell me why. Im trying to get people to sit here and spew everything they know in attempt to better EVERYONE. were ALL stuck in the same situation, most of the popular posters here are seemingly inches away from breaking into the upper echelon of players.

So what are we going to do about it? I guess I'm gonna necro my old matchup thread and not let it die this time. And I'd love to hear esams input on matchups since hes played more top name players then most of us probably.
 

ch33s3

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
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I'll start with Lucario. ISSDI. Seriously, I don't care if people say it's hard, or not worth it, or whatever. It makes quite literally every single one of his moves *with the SOLE EXCEPTION of footstool dair) unsafe on block, at EVERY PERCENT. It's really easy to ISSDI his moves because of the decently large amount of shield stun. Additionally, if you play like I do, rack damage to about 50% with aerials (always looking for grabs of course), then camp. It makes Lucario approach (just ice block his projectiles and laugh). After he starts approaching, it's easy to get the grab. If you end up with a Lucario that is still playing super safe and looking for those dairs, don't be afraid to just uair him to a million, you should be able to avoid his smashes, and they don't separate you anyway. Uair kills eventually, even if really stale, and you can often catch a back air when they try to airdodge a uair, and you'll get your kill. I see this as a 65:35 MU for ICs.

I have Diddy at even as well. We also agree on MK, Marth and I think Falco is closer to 65:35 but that's not a huge disparity.

ROB loses to ICs, but not badly. 6:4 IMO. His projectiles aren't particularly impressive or effective. If you get a gyro, hold it and pressure him to the ledge, he'll have a lot of trouble getting back on stage if you properly blizzard wall him. If you force ROB to upb (easy enough, uair uair bair), he can't airdodge out of it, so just jump towards him to force an aerial (most ROBs nair) and then hit the lag with a strong aerial (one of the best uses for fair). Most of his grounded moves are punishable OOS with something, even if not grab. You can consistently grab dsmash if you ISSDI, or just run up and shield -> spotdodge it. This is one of the MUs where I like fsmash as a punish a lot.

And, ah, Toon Link. I will never, honestly, understand why people think ICs lose to Tink. It's easy enough to trade your uair for his bomb damage, and that's positive. Just focus on hitting him and maintaining a lead. Once you're winning, his camp game is ineffective at best. Only take gift grabs, no need to be greedy in this MU at all. You can bait invincibombs and bair the end of the airdodge and trade bair for bomb (or even bair AND bomb for bomb). If you're good with items you can set up some good traps using caught bombs and aerials.

I think we slightly beat Snake, but that varies so widely, and everyone has discussed that MU ad nauseum. If you want me to talk more about it, I will.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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just got off work, please edit posts that would be deemed flaming so i dont have to infract when i get to my computer. Bag on me all you want because admittedly i am bad, but some of the other stuff you said i cant reasonably let go about other people

:phone:
 

Mr. game and watch

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I'm a total baddie.
Have you een seen smoom play recently?
Compared to te rest of us smooms good.
Compared to hylian and lain, no.
Meep quit so he doesn't count.
Smoom just has hardly any videos up ever.
He's at least top 5 ICs.
Also MUs are now listed at +4 +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3

not #:# ratios.
Couldn't tell you why, just the way it is.

:phone:
 

Prawn

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I'm a total baddie.
Have you een seen smoom play recently?
Compared to te rest of us smooms good.
Compared to hylian and lain, no.
Meep quit so he doesn't count.
Smoom just has hardly any videos up ever.
He's at least top 5 ICs.
Also MUs are now listed at +4 +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3

not #:# ratios.
Couldn't tell you why, just the way it is.

:phone:
yea i didnt mean smooms BAD i just am saying that if we're looking at him as a top ice climber main then we all have work to do. hopefully smoom proves me wrong and beats trela and ultimaterazor or pwii or whatever soon. Smoom, while better than me, isn't too far above my level IMO and I think cheese is the same level or maybe above him. His placings are more or less the same or better than mine in a tougher region. I just desperately want some ice climber(especially solo ic) to put up great results instead of mediocre ones.

thats all.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Jun 3, 2010
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Prawn, what tournament were you talking about where I came in Second? I can't think of a 2nd place finish I've had since like, October last year
 

Prawn

Smash Master
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Prawn, what tournament were you talking about where I came in Second? I can't think of a 2nd place finish I've had since like, October last year
maybe it was third. Idk, it was a good placing that i didnt recognize many/if not all of the other names.

i dunno
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
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oh.

Like my last few tournies, I've won, come in 5th, come in 3rd, and won, so I don't know which tourney you're talking about lol

Which player beat me that you're talking about?
 
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