General ICs Q&A Thread

[Hylian]

He doesn't even need to read it lol he can just nado on reaction.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Why do I feel like Esam just lurked us till he was good with ICs and then started talking?

 

[Rubberbandman]

Why do I feel like Esam just lurked us till he was good with ICs and then started talking?

Thats what I did.

If he SL's on the platform after a SH AD he can glide above your uairs or just land really quickly on the top platform. Also, SH AD is risky because if he reads it, he dairs and probably separates.

He doesn't even need to read it lol he can just nado on reaction.

Okay, maybe it is a bad idea.

 

[Thebest1pj]

Thats what I did.




Okay, maybe it is a bad idea.

Do you rememeber who i am?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I never lurked here, there isn't any useful information here. Desyncs are all useless pretty much, ICs are so much better synced than desynced. There is a small chance of anything useful happening with ice blocks forcing grabs because *gasp* THERE IS A JUMP OPTION! Anybody who sees that can just jump out of the way. I mean, blizzard walling works against a few characters, but in general, synced play is infinitely better than desynced.

So yeah, basics + CG are all that is necessary.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Do you rememeber who i am?

Of course I do PJ.

 

[Roller]

So yeah, pivotgrab + CG are all that is necessary.

Fixed.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

>_> No...I win without CGing sometimes. ICs damage output is fun :D

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Pretty sure desync is personal taste.
As are character mains!
no absolute correct.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You can play any character any way.

However, you cannot say that all are equally effective. You are fooling yourself if that is the case. I may not be 100% sure that synced > Desynced, but I'm pretty damn sure. That's like saying that Pikachu using QA all the time is effective when it clearly isn't, even though it is a choice you can make.

 

[DeLux]

I think it's a bad analogy ESAM

And when I stop john of the Ice Climbering it, I'll prove you wrong. I know this for certain since having literally sat and counted, I sometimes will get more grabs per game than some people will get over a three game set. Call it a commentary on my poor CG execution, but it's something that someone that plays synced literally cannot replicate.

Until that time, I'd have to agree that so far in the IC metagame, synced play has been able to win at a high level.

But I strongly feel the future is going to be in desynced play. And the future is coming as soon as I stop dropping 5-10 grabs a game.

 

[Smoom77]

I agree that the future will be based on desync play, but in many matchups I know desync play will NEVER beat synced play.

Synced matchups (imo):
Toonlink
Falco (sometimes)
Marth
ZSS
Peach (most of the time)
ROB
Lucas

Maybe some more. But I'm not very knowledgeable on all of those match-ups.

 

[DeLux]

I agree that the future will be based on desync play, but in many matchups I know desync play will NEVER beat synced play.

Synced matchups (imo):
Toonlink
Falco (sometimes)
Marth
ZSS
Peach (most of the time)
ROB
Lucas

Maybe some more. But I'm not very knowledgeable on all of those match-ups.

Really? I agree on Falco, ROB because of lasers. Although I have ROB and Spanimal issues imo so that might be part of the problem

Definitely not on Lucas, TL, Marth. Having played tops in each character, desynced is largerly better than synced in these.

I'm kind of torn on Peach but I see what you mean on that one.

I have yet to play a top ZSS so I don't have the credentials to say otherwise, but just looking at it objectively like any other matchup, she seems like a strong candidate to fail against a good desync game.


All of those characters **** a bad desync game though.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yo...ice moves suck against ZSS. **** is a -2 or -3 MU. ****ing hard as hell.

 

[Hylian]

Yo...ice moves suck against ZSS. **** is a -2 or -3 MU. ****ing hard as hell.

Nick riddle is your brother...

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

He 3 stocked Vex, and AFAIK he hasn't played any other ICs besides Jeff in FL, but he sandbagged the **** out of him. He also beat Vinnie's solidly in friendlies.

 

[TheSaintKai]

He 3 stocked Vex, and AFAIK he hasn't played any other ICs besides Jeff in FL, but he sandbagged the **** out of him. He also beat Vinnie's solidly in friendlies.

You haven't played him yet?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

However, you cannot say that all are equally effective. You are fooling yourself if that is the case. I may not be 100% sure that synced > Desynced, but I'm pretty damn sure. That's like saying that Pikachu using QA all the time is effective when it clearly isn't, even though it is a choice you can make.

I don't think ganon is = to MK.
I know for a fact ganon is > than mk

however, one can be better with ganon, than he is MK.


Maybe you're better not using desynchs, but lux is way better desynced.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Riddle too good.

 

[Deathfox30]

I don't think ganon is = to MK.
I know for a fact ganon is > than mk

You just said "I know for a fact ganon is greater than than mk"

.

Mk is so good he gets 2 thans, ban him now.

 

[Hylian]

He 3 stocked Vex, and AFAIK he hasn't played any other ICs besides Jeff in FL, but he sandbagged the **** out of him. He also beat Vinnie's solidly in friendlies.

Nick riddle is your brother..

 

[Smoom77]

Really? I agree on Falco, ROB because of lasers. Although I have ROB and Spanimal issues imo so that might be part of the problem

Definitely not on Lucas, TL, Marth. Having played tops in each character, desynced is largerly better than synced in these.

I'm kind of torn on Peach but I see what you mean on that one.

I have yet to play a top ZSS so I don't have the credentials to say otherwise, but just looking at it objectively like any other matchup, she seems like a strong candidate to fail against a good desync game.


All of those characters **** a bad desync game though.

Like I said, I was making assumptions. Now I think about it, I can agree with ZSS, Lucas, and Marth, but I am not moving my stance on TL. I've played the top TLs (Jerm, PJ, ensis) also. I find that I desync minimally against them and I do completely fine. Earlier when I played Jerm, I tried to desync and I never won a match against Jerm.

 

[Myollnir]

Nick riddle is your brother..

NR is ESAM's brother? I didn't know o:

 

[DeLux]

Like I said, I was making assumptions. Now I think about it, I can agree with ZSS, Lucas, and Marth, but I am not moving my stance on TL. I've played the top TLs (Jerm, PJ, ensis) also. I find that I desync minimally against them and I do completely fine. Earlier when I played Jerm, I tried to desync and I never won a match against Jerm.

A clarification to make and a question Smoom;

You don't have to desync in order to beat any character which is pretty obvious.

I was torn between Peach and TL because I admittedly play the matchups differently in terms of level of desynced play. Like the best way to describe it is I'm constantly desyncing, but am rarely playing desynced for extend periods of time. If that makes any sense at all.

Like with Peach, I'll use every out of aerial desync and out of roll desync that I can.
Toon Link, I primarily use the two out of shield desync options that I have.



So for the TL matchup when you tried to desync, what options were you using? If you were using anything but a fast out of shield Desync option, it's probably too slow for the matchup

 

[Thebest1pj]

lalalala


pound 5 pj has returned prepare to get camped till u cry

 

[Roller]

Oh but that footstooling at 0 tho.

 

[Thebest1pj]

LLLLLL

paused tho

 

[Smoom77]

A clarification to make and a question Smoom;

You don't have to desync in order to beat any character which is pretty obvious.

I was torn between Peach and TL because I admittedly play the matchups differently in terms of level of desynced play. Like the best way to describe it is I'm constantly desyncing, but am rarely playing desynced for extend periods of time. If that makes any sense at all.

Like with Peach, I'll use every out of aerial desync and out of roll desync that I can.
Toon Link, I primarily use the two out of shield desync options that I have.



So for the TL matchup when you tried to desync, what options were you using? If you were using anything but a fast out of shield Desync option, it's probably too slow for the matchup

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm more constantly desyncing vs Peach, not very much against Toonlink. Against Peach, I can pressure her near the ledge and do some desynced IBs from long-range. And usually I do some crazy stuff desynced because she separated us.

TL, I really don't think about desyncing. I mainly think about reading his jumps into upairs or nairs or grabs. If I desync, I only use it how i know i'll be safe.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

It's hard to grab TL.
Range, projectiles, sword.
So CG's are kinda out, unless he does something really stupid to leave himself open for a grab.

And our metagame is basicly CG's and desyncs.
So it makes sense to me to use desyncs alot vs. TL.
Unless were easily seperated by TL, cause the only good toon I play doesn't play the metagame, so I have little expirience.
So I'm just talking in theory.

So if CGs and desyncs are out, then it's just a gay MU, where I would think uair, cause it has good priority, and sh blizzard.
And IB, to stop bombs maybe?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Stop bombs?

Ahahahahah...Nothing stops bombs, I'm pretty sure they'd go through blizzard, of course, I'm not 100% on this, but in the past, bombs have gone through every attack I've used ever.

 

[Smoom77]

As long as you don't go to BF, it isn't too difficult to get a grab IMO. Problem with TL and desyncs is that he can weave through very easily. Good mobility and all his projectiles go through blizzard. SH blizzard doesn't work unless you have him in the corner.

You make it sound much much harder than it is Game and Watch.

 

[B0NK]

You can't stop bomb's priority, but you can avoid them and even catch them.

Also, everything Smoom said.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I said IB could, if the hit the ib.

But again, not very expierienced in this MU.

Where I really need help is lolimar.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I said IB could, if the hit the ib.

But again, not very expierienced in this MU.

Where I really need help is lolimar.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

If you're grabbing with Nana from a Popo fthrow, the time occurs the two frames before Popo enters the animation of swinging his hammer forward after the back swing.

If you're grabbing with Popo from a Nana fthrow, the correct frame of input begins when Nana is about half way between the beginning of the forward swing and the hammer contact.

Delux, if you could give me another post like this on dthrow > bthrow, it'd be much appreciated...Or anyone for that matter, I can't quite get the timing with what I read from the guide (it is rather ambiguous)

 

[DeLux]

It's character specific and I'd have to look up timings for every character x2

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Alrighty, that's cool, I'll be sure to practice it a lot then.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

All that trouble for that?
+10 respects for mink.
+5 lols for mink.

 

[DeLux]

Don't follow that chart unless you want to lose to Olimar :\

Also, try playing around with your dthrow regrab timings in reference to when the floor flashes in the dthrow animation. If you're regrabbing with Nana, the frames immediately before the flash are what you want to grab at. For Popo the frames at the tail end of the flash, but not after, are the one's you want to regrab.

Bthrow is sort of just timing because the input timings are too close together between throw and regrab to reliably use a visual cue imo


That being said, I will no longer be using Bthrow in favor of my new tripless, unmashable, platformable CG

4000 more reps and I'll be tourney ready imo

 

[Smoom77]

Also, PLEASE refer to the weight list when figuring out timings.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

Bowser 1.111
Donkey Kong 1.091
Snake 1.076
Dedede 1.071
Charizard 1.061
Ganondorf 1.056
Samus 1.051
Yoshi 1.045
Wario 1.045
R.O.B. 1.040
Ike 1.035
Captain Falcon 1.030
Link 1.030
Wolf 1.020
Lucario 1.010
Ivysaur 1.010
Mario 1
Luigi 0.995
Sonic 0.985
Ness 0.980
Pit 0.980
Lucas 0.980
Diddy Kong 0.975
Toon Link 0.970
Ice Climber 0.970
Peach 0.960
Marth 0.944
Sheik 0.935
Zelda 0.935
Falco 0.919
Olimar 0.919
Zero Suit Samus 0.914
Fox 0.910
Pikachu 0.904
Meta Knight 0.904
Kirby 0.899
Squirtle 0.884
Mr. Game & Watch 0.884
Jigglypuff 0.849

Reading this sorta helped me when figuring out all the timings.