General ICs Q&A Thread

[toobusytocare]

yeah, with me on picto, i either **** or get ***** depending on how the transformations play out

thats why i started going more BF and soon PS1 and YI vs MK

 

[ch33s3]

Am I the only IC who still follows the old school (SV or BF), (impossible), (SV or BF) formula against good MKs?

 

[swordgard]

Am I the only IC who still follows the old school (SV or BF), (impossible), (SV or BF) formula against good MKs?

I am still experimenting on CPs atm, but yeah my cps revolve around this, or CS.

 

[Smoom77]

If I'm playing an MK, I try to go to BF or SV.

 

[toobusytocare]

im afraid of MK on SV

i wanna try YI

 

[lain]

If you're playing a good MK, SV is a stage you don't want to go to lol

 

[toobusytocare]

If you're playing a good MK, SV is a stage you don't want to go to lol

Yeah, i honestly think SV is MKs best neutral vs most of the cast

also as ICs you dont want to play snake on SV imo
:\

 

[ch33s3]

If you're playing a good MK, SV is a stage you don't want to go to lol

Don't fall behind and abuse platform cancelling.

I like SV.

/shrug

 

[FrozenHobo]

SV is pretty good imo. the platform can help and hurt you, but it feels like there are just more characters that can abuse the camping ability better than we can. i suppose it depends on the player just as much as the characters.

 

[Aglow]

Question: would some of you guys post on the thread I made in Tactical Discussion? I was hoping to hear/show the community why we/you guys play ice climbers.

 

[Smoom77]

I posted

 

[BadKarma]

I posted too

 

[Aglow]

Yep. I understand that they are hard to play, but people that say they suck have another thing coming.

 

[Sieguest]

Yeeeeeep. Threw my grain of salt into there. >_________>

 

[Deathfox30]

I coulnd't find your guy's video critique thread so:

FVCT~ Frio's Video Critique Thread
For a quick and easy to follow critique. ​

What is it?

Too lazy to read those long and boring critiques on the brawl character boards? Well you're in luck. Just send me a video of you playing from Youtube and I'll re-upload it with a critique commentary on My Channel. I'll PM you when I re-upload your video on my channel.

How many Q&A's are you going to post this in. o.o

 

[Aglow]

How many Q&A's are you going to post about him posting this in?

 

[Deathfox30]

How many Q&A's are you going to post about him posting this in?

However many you want me to, sweetie. <3

 

[DeLux]

Most likely an e-alert question: What are the Pro/Cons of Boost Grabbing over Dash Grabbing in terms of frames and/or practical application? What are the Pro/Cons of Reverse Boost Grabbing over Pivot Grabbing in terms of frames and/or practical application?

I've recently added Reverse Boost Grabbing against Tornado and it seems to work better than a regular pivot grab. It could just be mental. Thoughts?

 

[redrighthand]

I'm preodominantly a Diddy main, but I'm working on IC's as my secondary (they're beasts; especially in the bedroom). I'm getting the hang of the b-throw->d-throw chain right now and other stuff.

I'm wondering whats the most match applicable desynch, i.e whats the quickest and easiest method to desynch the characters on the fly?

 

[Sieguest]

It kind of depends on the situation. If you're walking just for position, you can SND fairly quickly or you can use the pivot desync.
If you're starting to run away, you can use the backdash desync.
If you're getting aggressive you can use the DD or any other desync that has Nana attacking first.
You can desync out of squall so if you end up using that, there's another chance to desync. And then there's the hitlag desync whenever you start hitting your opponent. (Doesn't work for specials)

Those are some of the things I do. x.x

 

[Rubberbandman]

I'm preodominantly a Diddy main, but I'm working on IC's as my secondary (they're beasts; especially in the bedroom).

We are beasts. We put women in comas we're that good.

My favorite desynchs to use are:

Dash Dance (Nana inputs first) - Once you get the hang of how to do it, it makes life so much eaiser.

Shield desynch - Great for Powershielding and approaches.

Squall desynch - Against heavies, this is great for stuffing their followups.

3 input Dash Dance - nothing really to say here...

Hylian desynch - Eh, this needs more love. Its a good one for almost anything.

 

[redrighthand]

Thanks I'll work on those desynchs :D
NaCl i like your situational explanations; those are really going to help me out.

 

[EverAlert]

Most likely an e-alert question: What are the Pro/Cons of Boost Grabbing over Dash Grabbing in terms of frames and/or practical application? What are the Pro/Cons of Reverse Boost Grabbing over Pivot Grabbing in terms of frames and/or practical application?

I've recently added Reverse Boost Grabbing against Tornado and it seems to work better than a regular pivot grab. It could just be mental. Thoughts?

lol swordgard was asking me about this stuff on msn, I assume he got it all from here. xD

Heh, this will probably be longer than needed to explain but bear with it.


Firstly, I'll define an arbitrary unit of measurement in Brawl to make it easier to quantify the differences: You know those lines on the FD platform? There's like 40-50 of them across FD. Here's a picture to show what I mean:

The distance between two of these lines will be 1 Arbitrary Measurement Unit, or 1 AMU. So 2.5 AMU would be the distance that is between one line, and the point halfway between 2 and 3 lines over. The lines are all evenly-spaced (except for the two on the very ends of FD), so IMO it's a fairly reasonable guide for rough measurement.

Anyway.

Dash Grab vs. Boost Grab

Practical Difference -- Excluding the actual dashing input, a Dash Grab has 1 physical input across 1 frame, while a Boost Grab has 2 physical inputs across 2 (perfect) to 3 (meaty/late) frames. (see: input maps at the end of the post)

Physical Difference -- A perfect Boost grab is 0 AMU different in slide distance, both perfect and meaty. In all cases it is assumed you press the grab button itself at exactly the same point in the run (you start executing the meaty boost grab 2 frames before the dash grab).
Note to swordgard: this is slightly different to what I told you on MSN: now that I'm less rushed, triple-checking has revealed otherwise, sorries.

TL;DR -- Just dash grab its easier lol.

Pivot Grab vs. Reverse Boost Grab

Practical Difference -- Excluding the actual dashing input, a Pivot Grab has 2 physical inputs across 1 (perfect) to 3 (meaty) frames, while a Reverse Boost Grab has 3 physical inputs across 2 (perfect) to 3 (meaty) frames. (again: see input maps)

Physical Difference -- A perfect Reverse Boost Grab slides 4.75 AMU shorter than a perfect Pivot Grab, and 3.5 AMU shorter than a meaty Pivot Grab. However, a meaty Reverse Boost Grab slides 2.25 AMU shorter than a perfect Pivot Grab, and only 1 AMU shorter than a meaty Pivot Grab.
As a side note, a meaty pivot grab will slide 1.25 AMU less than a perfect pivot grab, while a meaty reverse boost grab will slide 2.5 AMU longer than a perfect reverse boost grab.

TL;DR -- Pivot Grab is better if you need more room, but the bigger difference requires stricter timing.


TL;DR -- Don't Boost Grab with ICs


Input Maps

All input maps assume you are already in your proper, full-speed dash animation before performing them (i.e. not in the dash startup or anything like that).

InputFrame : GameTimer : Effect/Input

Dash Grab
00 : 00 : Input Grab (lolol)
 
Pivot Grab (Perfect)
00 : 00 : Input Stick Back, Grab
 
Pivot Grab (Meaty)
00 : 00 : Input Stick Back
02 : 96 : Input Grab

Boost Grab (Perfect)
00 : 00 : Input Attack
01 : 98 : Input Grab

Boost Grab (Meaty)
00 : 00 : Input Attack
02 : 96 : Input Grab

Reverse Boost Grab (Perfect)
00 : 00 : Input DSmash
01 : 98 : Input Grab, Stick Back

Reverse Boost Grab (Meaty)
00 : 00 : Input DSmash
01 : 98 : Input Stick Back
02 : 96 : Input Grab

 

[Attila_]

Thanks I'll work on those desynchs :D
NaCl i like your situational explanations; those are really going to help me out.

i can show you this stuff at 3 stocked. im the only one to ever use ics at tourneys anymore lol.

@EA: you're too amazing to live in sydney. hurry up and move to melbourne, where you belong.

 

[EverAlert]

but west sydney da bess...!

how about YOU move to sydney? :D

 

[Attila_]

nah, sydney is too timeout happy for my liking. besides, melbourne is the home of robocop

 

[Rubberbandman]

Stuff of great importance was here.

This should be archived. Amazing post. gdsht.

 

[DeLux]

Huge explanation on Boost grabbing vs pivot grabbing

Random question on testing. Did you test the pivot grab out of a run? I'm fairly certain that a pivot grab needs momentum to slide. So if one were to do it directly out of dash, it doesn't slide at all. In comparison the boost reverse always slides. Just want to clear up any possible sources of inconsistencies to real game play. Great work though!

 

[Sieguest]

Random question on testing. Did you test the pivot grab out of a run? I'm fairly certain that a pivot grab needs momentum to slide. So if one were to do it directly out of dash, it doesn't slide at all. In comparison the boost reverse always slides. Just want to clear up any possible sources of inconsistencies to real game play. Great work though!

All input maps assume you are already in your proper, full-speed dash animation before performing them (i.e. not in the dash startup or anything like that).

10eaquotes

 

[DeLux]

10eaquotes

Then it still doesn't necessarily rule out using a reverse boost out of stand still to get the slide. It might be faster, frame wise, than building momentum necessary to get a pivot grab to slide.

 

[Still Alive]

Is desynching important?

 

[Smoom77]

Not at all.

 

[Still Alive]

Not at all.

I've been hearing that useful to approach desynched?

 

[Rubberbandman]

Is desynching important?

All up to your playstyle, really.

 

[EverAlert]

Then it still doesn't necessarily rule out using a reverse boost out of stand still to get the slide. It might be faster, frame wise, than building momentum necessary to get a pivot grab to slide.

Doing a perfect reverse boost grab as defined in that post stops all momentum completely, regardless of your current momentum, which is why there's such a huge difference in slide. What you're saying might be possible, but you would need to be frame-perfect with a "late" reverse boost grab. More testing needed imo, but not right now, I have a Japanese class to go to.

 

[Smoom77]

Meaty?!?!??!?!?!!

 

[EverAlert]

It's a traditional fighting game term, meaning to stick something out early so the ending part of it hits, causing you to have minimal lag. It's probably incorrect usage of the term, but here it means "late timing", as in "start executing earlier but finish executing at the normal time".

 

[B0NK]

Yeah meaty usually refers to catching opponents on wake-ups with the latest part of the hitbox, towards the end of your animation (usually with an invincible move, like a fireball) to force an opponent to block, giving you a nice frame advantage.

But the usage here was still understandable to those familiar with the term xD

 

[DeLux]

Doing a perfect reverse boost grab as defined in that post stops all momentum completely, regardless of your current momentum, which is why there's such a huge difference in slide. What you're saying might be possible, but you would need to be frame-perfect with a "late" reverse boost grab. More testing needed imo, but not right now, I have a Japanese class to go to.

Thanks EA! Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue with your data. The frame data mentioned is helpful, believe me.

If we're talking parameters for a future test, I think it would compare the following:

The frames it takes to grab out of a meaty reverse boost grab compared to the frames it takes to gain momentum in a dash to make a pivot grab slide.

Then for practical purposes, maybe compare those two frame to the varied distance between the two that needs to be covered by MK's Tornado in terms of AMU's per frame. But that might be ALOT of work haha

I'm just interested to know how close I can get to a tornado, react, and then conceivably run away, meaty reverse/run and pivot, and win.

 

[Orion*]

i dont really play this character but i felt forced to use him in tournament due to a lack of olimar exp.

any thoughts ? XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMf_b4gsmX8&feature=channel