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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
yeah he is.
if they don't ban FD, take him there. Ganon is garb without platforms to slide around on.
A lot of ganon players have trouble dealing with buffer rolls out of their janky shield pressure. Just make sure you mix it up and watch out for random warlock kicks.
Dthrow reverse dair is incredibly hard for ganon to escape. You can also solo chaingrab him for a little while.
definitely stay on the ground. This is a matchup I don't recommend playing on platforms.
try to anticipate ganon's wavelands with usmash, utilt, and rising uairs, his wavelands are pretty, but his moves still have stupid slow startup.
Don't wd out of your shield after it gets hit. Ganon will jab or ftilt basically everytime they land. Iirc, ftilt doesn't actually have a whole lot of shield stun so you can punish it, but you have to act quickly because he'll jab afterwards.
Blizzard outranges him. do with that what you will.
In general, ganon is no good if he has to come to you. All he really wants to do is retreating fair and run around on platforms.
ganon's dair is annoying. He'll often try to counter your anti-airs by doublejumping out of his wavelands and coming down with a dair.
I like to stop that by getting underneath the platform and uairing before ganon slides off of it.
It's a lot harder when he's doing a retreating waveland->fair, react to the fair and lightshield and it will push you back out of his range to follow up with a jab or something.
Watch out for empty wavelands off the platform into wavelands onto the stage. I see a lot of ganon's doing this and approaching with weird moves like grab or jab/ftilt or sometimes dtilt to try and start a combo.
They also like doing aerials out of it and having the momentum carry them. Ganon's waveland->moonwalk bair/uair goes pretty far.
You really just have to learn ganon's tricks and understand his weaknesses and how to abuse them.
It's no good if he gets a hit, but you can just wall him forever if you really want to.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
it's because most people don't understand how to play with them in teams.
ICs are a very solid aggressor and control the ground very well.
So in neutral your partner basically just plays on platforms.
then you go around and do some ****, and then when you're out of neutral, your partner walls while you combo the hell out of the other opponent.
ICs are also really good at walling while their partner is edgeguarding/recovering.
it's also cool because in teams, if you lose nana, sopo is still really solid.
you do have to know how to use sopo to do well in doubles though.
It also really helps if both you and your partner have good teammate awareness.
My personal favorite partners are spacies, falcon, sheik, samus, puff, peach
I'm not a fan of marth at all. I think its a garbage team since you're both trying to control the same space.
as far as the mid-tiers go, Luigi+ICs should never happen. Ever.
Doc/Mario+ICs is interesting but not that great by any means.
I think ICs+Ganon is garbage too, but if ganon is super aware of where people are and just chills out on platforms and lets you approach, it can work. I still think it's garbage though.
IC dittos are hilarious. I've actually been relatively successful with that team. It's not actually good, but if you establish an aggressor and whatnot, you can do jank things, especially if you just keep walling. Only works on big stages though.
cemo
white walker
i got #rekt at BH4, I beat a guys fox then he beat me with doctor mario, and then in losers i lost to zelda.
this was disappointing but full matchup knowledge is part of the skillset, I shouldn't consider a bracket as lucky/unlucky, just myself as not good enough yet.
i guess i'm just going to... think about those matchups. i lost mms to eikelmann, zang, and milkman. (0 - 2, 1 - 3, 0 - 2) i wanted to get in zhu, nintendude, whoever else but we had to go early to get back in time for stuff.
this was disappointing but full matchup knowledge is part of the skillset, I shouldn't consider a bracket as lucky/unlucky, just myself as not good enough yet.
i guess i'm just going to... think about those matchups. i lost mms to eikelmann, zang, and milkman. (0 - 2, 1 - 3, 0 - 2) i wanted to get in zhu, nintendude, whoever else but we had to go early to get back in time for stuff.
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Was that zelda thelake?
cemo
white walker
yes. he got sheiked into losers by drephen. i did okay, but they weren't matchups i was prepared for.
john!
Smash Hero
sheiked (v.): the elimination of an otherwise promising character from bracket due to being matched against a sheik
in extreme cases (e.g. bowser), can also refer to a character's complete removal from metagame viability due to the presence of sheik.
in extreme cases (e.g. bowser), can also refer to a character's complete removal from metagame viability due to the presence of sheik.
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DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
haha rough. Aaron knows the matchup. He's played VaNz ICs and myself number of times. He also just knows all of zelda's matchups. I'm not sure what other IC players he's had experience with, but he definitely knows his way around the mu.
cemo
white walker
haha yeah, i would say he was definitely ahead of me on the matchup knowledge. the things i knew to look for he already knew to avoid, etc. he's definitely legit. i was also maybe intimidated by his set vs nintendude. 
seems like a super cool guy though.
i think the especially disappointing part was I went 0 - 2 after coming close to winning my phase 1 pool ( 1 - 2 kjh, 1 - 2 seibrik)
seems like a super cool guy though.i think the especially disappointing part was I went 0 - 2 after coming close to winning my phase 1 pool ( 1 - 2 kjh, 1 - 2 seibrik)
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Aaron is the coolest dude to ever touch a controller.
He's smart as hell though and super patient, and the way zelda is, she forces you to play the game at her pace, which is really hard sometimes for me especially, because I just want to go in.
It's often very hard to know when you can land hits in the mu, because her bair is like frame 3 or 4 or something and she has stupid aerial mobility that is really weird like puff, but her low kicks are super effective against ICs. Generally, I try to bait the doublejump kick, because it puts her in a worse position and without her double jump she can't doublejump kick again lmao.
usually you just get her to go high and get under with usmash/uair or something.
I try to avoid playing on the lower platforms too much, because I find it difficult and too risky against zelda, but the top platform is a cool place. A lot of zelda's, especially the lake, will just uair at it, but uair has like years of cooldown, so you can shielddrop punish it really easily. If you get hit with it, it isn't too big a deal, because it is not as scary as it looks.
Lots of blizzards and nanapults (have to be careful with you nanapult positions though, because zelda can rising kick and get under it and hit nana sometimes)
Shield stun desyncs are also amazing if she kicks your shield.
DI her dthrow behind her, she can't follow up if you do that. If you DI in, you gon get kicked.
He's smart as hell though and super patient, and the way zelda is, she forces you to play the game at her pace, which is really hard sometimes for me especially, because I just want to go in.
It's often very hard to know when you can land hits in the mu, because her bair is like frame 3 or 4 or something and she has stupid aerial mobility that is really weird like puff, but her low kicks are super effective against ICs. Generally, I try to bait the doublejump kick, because it puts her in a worse position and without her double jump she can't doublejump kick again lmao.
usually you just get her to go high and get under with usmash/uair or something.
I try to avoid playing on the lower platforms too much, because I find it difficult and too risky against zelda, but the top platform is a cool place. A lot of zelda's, especially the lake, will just uair at it, but uair has like years of cooldown, so you can shielddrop punish it really easily. If you get hit with it, it isn't too big a deal, because it is not as scary as it looks.
Lots of blizzards and nanapults (have to be careful with you nanapult positions though, because zelda can rising kick and get under it and hit nana sometimes)
Shield stun desyncs are also amazing if she kicks your shield.
DI her dthrow behind her, she can't follow up if you do that. If you DI in, you gon get kicked.
Jagoffian
Smash Journeyman
Please critique my fraudulent ICs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loMJs8oOJw
I'm a Samus main, but I'm picking ICs up for the Sheik/Puff MUs, plus they're hella interesting. I strangely felt more confident in my ICs in this match (probably because it's aggravating as Samus), which ended up biting me in the ass lol. I don't know s*** about this matchup
. Any advice is appreciated.
I'm a Samus main, but I'm picking ICs up for the Sheik/Puff MUs, plus they're hella interesting. I strangely felt more confident in my ICs in this match (probably because it's aggravating as Samus), which ended up biting me in the ass lol. I don't know s*** about this matchup
. Any advice is appreciated.
InfiniteTripping
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2014
- Messages
- 396
Dedede needs an alt where he wears a parka, and then you can team him with another one and hey, the Ice Climbers are back! Of course it's the Ice Climbers if they ate all the eggplants in the Arctic, but still!
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
A little. But Shes also boring as hell and can't approach things.
Psycho_Bayleef
Smash Apprentice
She's slower than hell and alot less fluid than icies. I found her to so far be the most boring character in the game xD.
Psycho_Bayleef
Smash Apprentice
Pocketing icies for a MU is a terrible ideaPlease critique my fraudulent ICs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loMJs8oOJw
I'm a Samus main, but I'm picking ICs up for the Sheik/Puff MUs, plus they're hella interesting. I strangely felt more confident in my ICs in this match (probably because it's aggravating as Samus), which ended up biting me in the *** lol. I don't know s*** about this matchup
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
probably the worst idea.
Jagoffian
Smash Journeyman
I've had decent results (on-par or better than my Samus) in those MUs, so I see no reason to not have them in my repertoire at the moment, especially when I generally have more fun (which is important to me) playing those MUs with ICs; it's as much of a mental thing for me as it is a raw matchup ratio thing. I realize the prefacing of that post was unnecessary; I just had some residual salt/regret about not going my main, lol. I don't feel like getting into an argument about this, so you if you have any criticisms of my play (and I'm sure you do), feel free to point them out, I would really appreciate it! c:I rarely ever get streamed so I want to take advantage of this opportunity.
Psycho_Bayleef
Smash Apprentice
Pocket icies is an awful idea mainly because of the work they require
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Psycho_Bayleef
Smash Apprentice
Ps your icies weren't bad. Just main them xD
The first grab you got, he mashed out, you could've input blizzard or sh dair with nana; she was definitely close enough. I think you didn't want the mash out on the second grab on the platform, so you dthrew too early and marth got put off the platform. I don't know what I would've done there, maybe blizzard or just fthrow-> ice block to put the pressure on marth offstage. Hard to tell. Optimum would be crimson to not mash out, and you could wait for nana, but...Please critique my fraudulent ICs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loMJs8oOJw
I'm a Samus main, but I'm picking ICs up for the Sheik/Puff MUs, plus they're hella interesting. I strangely felt more confident in my ICs in this match (probably because it's aggravating as Samus), which ended up biting me in the *** lol. I don't know s*** about this matchup
Crimson offstage, and you stand shooting ice blocks at him that don't hit instead of grabbing ledge. Could've been a better edgeguard. I like to do getup attack to nana dsmash, because nana can do it while you're getting up and cover marth going for stage, and the getup attack holds the ledge longer than normal getup.
There's a couple times (2:37) where you go for dsmash to punish, and the commentators caught it as well that you could've gotten some grabs. Around 3:50, blur is spamming jab on nana and you roll behind and...dsmash at like 0% on marth. It led to nothing and could've been a grab.
6:20 was you chance to put some damage or take a stock, and you literally threw it away (behind you). I like the idea of charging upsmash, because: pokemon stadium; I probably would've gone for a fsmash, but that's not really a critique.
Side note: you almost got ramen nana'd at 7:51, where nana is in hitstun, and you try to belay, but nana just grabs ledge from you and betrays you
I've got the same problem playing ICs, I start shying away from going for grabs or big grab punishes because if I mess them up, I end up getting nothing or less damage than if I had just gone for a dsmash. Especially wobbling: highest reward for success, but if you fail all you get is a couple tilts and everyone like "oh he's got it, he's...nah". It's really disappointing. The reason it's disappointing is because ICs are so strong off of grab, and can punish so hard, so if you clean those up you'll have a much better game, no matter how good marth is in the neutral. You didn't really even need to go for grabs more, you just needed to not drop those punishes you had.
If anyone has better suggestions please post, as my ICs are by no means something to look up to, these are just some things I noticed.
PS: if you want MU advice, this thread is really good, and has a section on marth. Biggest thing is fairs are either approaching or retreating, approaching can be shield grabbed/roll behind/if full hopped they can be AC upair or dash attacked. Retreating really just have to be pushed back to the ledge, don't try to approach a marth doing retreating fairs, just be right there in front of him, out of range, creeping up. Second is dtilts need to be read and countered with over shooting nairs, or spaced fairs.
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OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys, quick question here. Is there any better/more guaranteed way to finish off a wobble than timing the down smash with Nana/the 2nd climber?
And if not, how do you guys get that timing down? Half the time I miss-time it and Popo D-throws instead of Nana D-smashing.
I read this
"The easiest way of KOing an opponent out of a wobble is to dsmash with Popo right after Nana's dtilt or ftilt connects" -Fly
And haven't been able to get it. Is there a more obvious visual cue or am I legitimately just trying to see right when Nana's F-tilt comes out? Can this sentence be worded any differently, just in case I'm somehow misreading it?
-Sincerely, an IC who wobbles to 250% in case he misses.
And if not, how do you guys get that timing down? Half the time I miss-time it and Popo D-throws instead of Nana D-smashing.
I read this
"The easiest way of KOing an opponent out of a wobble is to dsmash with Popo right after Nana's dtilt or ftilt connects" -Fly
And haven't been able to get it. Is there a more obvious visual cue or am I legitimately just trying to see right when Nana's F-tilt comes out? Can this sentence be worded any differently, just in case I'm somehow misreading it?
-Sincerely, an IC who wobbles to 250% in case he misses.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
if you can't time dsmash correctly, learn to fthrow->fsmash.
it's super easy. basically just his forward on the cstick a couple times.
timing is the same for every character, since fthrow isn't weight based.
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
I used to do this but found myself missing occasionally (definitely fewer than half though). Is that just not mashing C-stick fast enough? Or do I need to memorize the feel of the timing instead of hoping to hit it with mash?
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TheRealFluid
Smash Cadet
You're probably not hitting your c-stick fast enough since i'ts a guaranteed smash.
You can also try down throw -> fsmash because it allows for a bit more frames to smash.
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TheRealFluid
Smash Cadet
Hey can anyone give me advice with dealing with a Fox who generally plays a platform camp heavy game. He snuffs most of my approaches with shines and up-airs, and he typically opts for shine for most punishes. He also is very consistent with his shine spiking.
Jagoffian
Smash Journeyman
@
shuall
Thanks for the critique! Yeah, I was definitely way too d-smash happy in that set :/, probably because I'm not very confident in my grab punishes vs. Marth. I'm extremely bad at wobbling and he's oddly difficult to handoff, but I'm gonna work in perfecting the latter. I'm unfamiliar with the spacing of fair to punish Marth's dtilt, which is probably why I never attempted it, lol. Blur's d-tilt spacing is what definitely killed me in this set. That desync edgeguard sounds pretty neat, I'll definitely try it out! And thanks for the thread link!
shuall
Thanks for the critique! Yeah, I was definitely way too d-smash happy in that set :/, probably because I'm not very confident in my grab punishes vs. Marth. I'm extremely bad at wobbling and he's oddly difficult to handoff, but I'm gonna work in perfecting the latter. I'm unfamiliar with the spacing of fair to punish Marth's dtilt, which is probably why I never attempted it, lol. Blur's d-tilt spacing is what definitely killed me in this set. That desync edgeguard sounds pretty neat, I'll definitely try it out! And thanks for the thread link!
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
Thanks! You guys helped a lot!
FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
Any and all critique is welcome, I've recently gone back to actually playing ics in tournament again.
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Psycho_Bayleef
Smash Apprentice
More airdodge for recovery. On FD one of his edgeguards coulda been avoided by airdodge instead of squall hammer.
Also good to see you playing icies in tourney.
++ pulling out the old school ****, no handoffs or wobbling.. Do you not like using them or not comfortable using them?
Also good to see you playing icies in tourney.
++ pulling out the old school ****, no handoffs or wobbling.. Do you not like using them or not comfortable using them?
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FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
My expectations were low for this set so I focused on what I find more fun to do, it honestly turned out alot better then I expected.
I didn't even notice how close the first game was until seeing this footage.
EDIT: For the record, I would most definitely have gone for a handoff had the opportunity presented itself, probably my favorite IC cg.
I didn't even notice how close the first game was until seeing this footage.
EDIT: For the record, I would most definitely have gone for a handoff had the opportunity presented itself, probably my favorite IC cg.
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BluntMaster
Smash Rookie
Is there any data or general consensus on whether or not the 20xx hack pack affects nana's AI?
There have been times where I feel like nana is way more useful when she's on her own while playing 20xx, but it's nothing she wouldn't be able to do in vanilla. Thoughts?
There have been times where I feel like nana is way more useful when she's on her own while playing 20xx, but it's nothing she wouldn't be able to do in vanilla. Thoughts?
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
I've been playing with the hack pack and can confirm that Nana will have some clutch saves and hits, specifically doing aerials on her own that I wouldn't expect. However, I think that the hack pack mostly messed with CPU AI DI and techs, so even if the changes did effect it would be easy to see and nothing extremely useful.
She still taunts and all that, so I'm thinking she's the same. What specifically are you referring to that would make you think otherwise?
BluntMaster
Smash Rookie
I guess I'm also questioning whether or not the changes to the other CPUs AI affect nana or not. But what I meant is that nana is much more aggressive when playing on 20xx compared to gamecube. My roommate tends to agree with me, and considering we play on both setups from day to day there is a somewhat noticeable difference (imo). I just wanted to see what kinda knowledge is out there already.
Nah, all of the 20XX changes to AI that I know of are just "reaction" (what the cpu does when hit on shield or directly when hitlag ends), or DI based changes. The CPUs were not made 'more aggressive'.
(though all android uprisings begin with some scientist assuring everyone that the robots couldn't possibly do that because they weren't designed that way)
TheRealFluid
Smash Cadet
I tend to play a fairly campy Ice Climbers and walling out Marth with desynced blizzards and ice blocks. Eventually, Marth has to approach and the responses to his approaches are kind of textbookish and flowcharty. For a frame of reference, watch Fly Amanita when he goes to FD vs a Marth.
TheRealFluid
Smash Cadet
Hey guys, up-tilt is one of my favorite IC's moves because it can lead to so more things. However, it seems that players are learning how to SDI out of this move more frequently. I was wondering what people think are the best options depending on which way the opponent SDI's. In particular, I would like to know for the Marth/Falco/Captain Falcon matchups since I use up-tilt the most in these matchups.
Psycho_Bayleef
Smash Apprentice
play on 1.0, uptilt can't be SDI'd
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
It's their worst mu according to wobbles (and myself, but that's less important)marth is straight garbo in the air though. (in neutral)
when he starts his jump, wd in with shield underneath his fair and you can just shield grab while he's in hitlag because he has like -1million on shields.
Especially if they sh double fair. He will have so much endlag after that lmao.
with his dtilt you can sh fair over it. sometime you can sh bair too.
VaNz says the best way to do it is to do the following:
wall out super grounded marths with blizzards and iceblocks
or
be super confident in your approaches and shields against stupid ass marth players who think marth has any business in the air.