Social General Ice Climber Chat

[choknater]

grim's basically right, but even just that is sometimes not enough to beat a marth with good spacing. today i was discovering new ways to open him up by mixing up nana blizzards and nana ice blocks. if he is camping a side platform and you're beneath the platform on the other side, you are both in very good camping positions. you can approach but he can drop fair you, he can approach but he'll get beat by your defense. imo this is a good neutral position in the matchup so both characters kinda have to bait each other, marth does so by jumping around or running around near that platform, ic's do so by waveshielding in and out...

if both chars are playing ground game, IMO ic's win. marth really needs platforms, which is why i think ic's are ver advantageous on fd. marth below ic's is such bad news, but there are ways to get down by using platforms wisely and watching marth's movement. just have to be very careful, and fast fall down with a bair or dair to cover urself.

 

[painlord k11]

lol i decided to sig this cause its lolzy i dont really like the painlord part u can just call me K11 , some ppl pronounce it K one one but its actually K eleven which sounds similar to my real name. hmm idk about iceys being advantageous on fd vs marth though. hmm im thinkin real hard on this 1...... i gues ill just agrea lol since im new to iceys i gues u got ice blocks ect cause i know marth kinda just out spaces the lower tiers and ***** them like samus ect.

 

[choknater]

lol yeah. ice block/blizz is very important cuz its the main thing ic's has that 'outranges' him

its the same for peach and falco honestly. they have to use their projectiles to set the pace.

also, i like calling u pain lord its a pretty manly name dawg. ur a LORD of PAIN after all

 

[ChivalRuse]

Here are a few sets from a recent tournament. Can you guys help me to not suck so much?

Me vs g-regulate 1-3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XVphAsRdr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU42354QQ4k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41l3sWi0GRg

Me vs Sypherphoenix 1-3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N1gQyYsw6M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr7lX_TnXPg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMYkgiVVEzs

 

[choknater]

ahhhh sweet! thanks i'll comment after i get home tonight.

 

[painlord k11]

im hella new to iceys so since iceys recovery goes fairly high are you able to go off edge and say like gimp spacies with a little tap then just B up or something. Also can you throw ice blocks off edge to freeze spacies and make them die which would be hilarious. also i saw this thing fly amnita did with letting nana grab the ledge while he controls his popo on stage to cover like all options practically thats pretty dope.

 

[choknater]

yeap, u can like nair someone off stage if ur ballsy enough to catch a falcon or a spacey before they get the upB launch. its more reliable to get max height with double ic's squall though, it goes a comparable height to the full upB except nana is with u. if u go high enough to grab the ledge but not high enough for nana to grab it too, quickly ledge drop with popo and upB

yeah haha thats the fly edgeguard, im tryna work the timing into my game cuz its really good. just up-B immediately out of shield and DI backwards so nana grabs the ledge

 

[KirbyKaze]

Is there any chance that those friendlies were recorded choknater? I've been looking for good videos of the current metagame ICs vs Marth matchup on YouTube, but I don't think that matchup is played often anymore (gone are the Ken vs. Chudat days...) to be recorded. Marth is easily my worst matchup, and I want to see how it should be handled by today's standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ry-k9uvXd0

 

[ChivalRuse]

ICs vs Marth is hilarious and fun. Just gotta be smart/patient and Marths will get frustrated and throw out too many random f-smashes, then you extend your lead.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why does Chu Dat never come here?

 

[ChivalRuse]

He only cares about making money, not helping out the community.

I don't really blame him though. Smashboards is pretty time consuming.

 

[painlord k11]

well i went into training mode everything seemed easy and i felt pro when i got nana to ledge gaurd while i stayed on the stage but i could get nana to stay on ledge. also difficulty wobbling lol i really dont know how often to tap A while hold in a tilted direction.

 

[choknater]

some notes on chivalruse, writing as i watch:

match 1: hm, u focused on jumping and beating his aerials with ur aerials way too much. falcon's too fast for that. just stay away, protect urself with nana blizzards and/or wd spacing. i know aerials oos might feel like they'd be good sometimes, but falcon is too fast for that. focus on waiting, baiting, and reacting whenever u have an opportunity to grab cuz u missed some

match 2: better, but i think its the same deal... just focus on defense and grab opportunities, you would probably beat him even harder than u did

match 3 and the set: hm yeah i think overall same problem. u played better here, but so did he. i think ur biggest problem in the set was throwing out attacks. given, g-reg was playing the matchup pretty well (but also making mistakes a wc falcon would never make ), i think definitely focus on making sure ur attacks hit, which means defending until the right time to strike. throwing out wishful attacks gets punished extremely hard vs falcon if he's in the right position to punish. play like u did with sopo on ur last stock, defensive, smart use of shield, etc : ) some of ur intuitive dash attacks were quite good, so keep that offensive intuition which is really a major part of playing ic's.

vs sypher

match 1: well your fox matchup is def stronger than your falcon haha, must be an east coast thing. honestly he kept running into things, like your bairs early game were definitely working out. i was just looking at the reasons u died, which was usually due to positioning. really avoid being closer to the edge than fox, that makes all the difference in the world in this matchup. if u can get shined to a point where u will fall off the side, u are in a bad position. of course, sometimes that is unavoidable... it's still possible to shift the game in ur favor from that position... onto match 2

match 2: brinstar, i would've lost too. why didnt u ban it? i cant help much cuz i suck at this stage

match 3: good overall, i was just tryna visualize how i wouldve done, and i wouldve done about the same. the matchup is just hard, we gotta punish as hard as possible. im still tryna figure out the matchup too, theres probably a lot of situational stuff we could both improve. keep it up

 

[ChivalRuse]

Thanks. Great advice, Chok! That's a good catch. I see that I was throwing out too many attacks against g-reg, and it wasn't working out for me. I'll try to be more defensive against Falcon in the future.

I banned Cruise against Sypher because I was almost sure he would take me there if he could. I felt I had a better chance on Brinstar because Fox generally doesn't fare as well there as on Cruise.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

ICs do pretty well against Fox on Brinstar. It doesn't hurt that, for some mysterious reason, most Foxes play against ICs in a completely brain-dead and easily beaten way on that stage.

Just control the center, expect a million full jump -> fast fall aerials, and short hop uair OoS a lot.

 

[Smasher89]

Checked the first set of matches in Chu vs Cactuar, noticed that like every time he roll desynched Nana forward from popo, she jabbed, I know that happens sometimes but looks like too many times just to be by pure luck, maybe it´s possible to still desynch her while she is rolling away or something.

Also, that Nair from Nana would be ecxtreeemly useful to learn, taking away the angle of recovering low completly!

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Woah interesting. I am going to rewatch those vids when I get home.

 

[Vanitas]

There's still some Mew2King VS ChuDat vids out on youtube if you need a good Marth VS IC example =P

 

[choknater]

those were the days ahah. he still doesnt know the matchup

 

[schoin]

Just a few things I thought about when watching ChivalRuse's vids against G Reg.

Roll as an approach; I know the general consensus is don't do it, yet watching ICs it happens A LOT. Sometimes it can be due to underestimating IC's roll range and instead of going behind the opponent and you actually end up in front, but is it always a bad thing? If the opponent doesn't punish appropriately you can throw out a bair oos and get the upper hand, thoughts?

Also what are IC options when getting shffl knees in the face? I noticed in ChivalRuse's 2nd game G Reg was able to just keep doing it. If a falcon gets the spacing right and you can't grab where does that leave you? Leaving movement options aside (rolling/WDoos) where a falcon can just catch up and repeat, are there any offensive options? would a sh nair do anything?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'll upload some videos of myself soon, I hope you guys can critique me :embarass:

 

[ChivalRuse]

That smilie is now "redface." ()

 

[ChivalRuse]

Just a few things I thought about when watching ChivalRuse's vids against G Reg.

Roll as an approach; I know the general consensus is don't do it, yet watching ICs it happens A LOT. Sometimes it can be due to underestimating IC's roll range and instead of going behind the opponent and you actually end up in front, but is it always a bad thing? If the opponent doesn't punish appropriately you can throw out a bair oos and get the upper hand, thoughts?

Also what are IC options when getting shffl knees in the face? I noticed in ChivalRuse's 2nd game G Reg was able to just keep doing it. If a falcon gets the spacing right and you can't grab where does that leave you? Leaving movement options aside (rolling/WDoos) where a falcon can just catch up and repeat, are there any offensive options? would a sh nair do anything?

Edit: Sorry about double post.

I'm pretty sure SH nair works, but only if they do another knee following the first. Nair would lose to Falcon just jabbing/raptor boosting/running away. Lol.

I like to do SH retreating fair out of shield because it beats raptor boost a lot, and sometimes outranges knee.

 

[voorhese]

i know who knows the fox vs ic matchup:
cunnigkitsune

ive seen him go 2 games in a row vs trail, and not get grabbed.

 

[choknater]

if ur getting knee'd in the face the best option is to light shield. i know u'll be getting put in a worse position (closer to the ledge) but still, u should be in a position where u can't get kneed instantly in the first place.

IMO, the knee/stomp/raptor strategy is very good, but not the most perfect strategy against ic's. u guys should help me figure out how to beat s2j LOL... basically he uses spaced nairs on ur shield a million times and actually hits those l-cancels vs ic's, approaches at the right times and AHHHHH he's so hard. i've always been more scared of socal players than norcal, honestly i would have a way easier time vs scar and ss than i would against johnny.

this set is old but please help!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_rD0Fatt5M

he's soooo good!

edit:

oh yeah

1. rolling into falcon is not that great an approach unless u absolutely know that he is running toward u and gonna try to knee ur shield... even then, its not very safe.

2. sh fast fall waveland is an AMAZING approach to marths and foxes who fall into a rhythm. it was working like MAGIC when i played my friend's marth, i was honestly amazed. i tried to imagine myself as marth playing against an ic's that uses it a lot... it's really unpredictable. empty short hops when spaced vs marth can be pretty safe, and from that range (outside of fair/dtilt) u can instantly approach in as u land. its amazing stuff yooooo

 

[painlord k11]

there was something in choknaters non grab skillz guide where you shield roll using C stick and nan will f smash on 1 side and you just down smash on the other side and it tricks DI or something sounded neat but i tried it and couldnt figure it out as simple as the technique seemed to be.

 

[choknater]

ohhhh haha, thats just a movement trick which i havent really tested out much in matches. basically u roll one way, and hold shield+side cstick and popo will do a roll while nana does a sliding fsmash in the direction that popo rolls.

 

[Smasher89]

Chok- I noticed he often mashed out of your grabs when you used blizzard, Falcon has a slow tech so techchasing might be a good mixup to use, but to not forget that he actually mashes and probably will have terrible DI. Something else I´ve noticed is that like every falcon likes to DI up when getting grabbed by ICs, not sure what punishes that best though...

 

[choknater]

i've been using dthrow uair to combo more, and that sounds like it'd be a good option at low percents. i need to make it a habit to throw immediately if the opponent is at a lower percent.

my improvements lately have been an application of theoretically good habits, and since ive always been an intuitive player ive been trying to change what moves i make intuitively.

for example from watching my old vid, i know i would be way more defensive than i was in that video since i've learned to be frugal in my approaches vs falcon. i'd do much better... but johnny has improved a lot so he would too

 

[ChivalRuse]

At, like, below 15%, d-throw -> Nana SH uair -> Popo regrab makes for an interesting pseudo chaingrab on fast fallers, and they can't get out of it by DIing down+away and buffering roll/spotdodge .

 

[choknater]

yeah, i wanna practice following the various DI's on that

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Johnny always does crazy SDI upwards unless you give him a reason not to.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Johnny always does crazy SDI upwards unless you give him a reason not to.

Hmm now that is an interesting equation...

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Went to a tourney this weekend. Didn't enter because I got pretty wasted however, I WILL say that dash away nana fsmash -> WD back-in and punish reactions is super- good. I've gotten grabs out of Fsmash's hitlag. And also low-percent Fsmash kills on people that thought they were safe because Nana's smash missed them.

 

[choknater]

wait, how do u do dash away nana fsmash?

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

are you talking about when popo dash attacks and nana fsmashes....

 

[Kyu Puff]

dash backwards and c-stick f-smash in the opposite direction at the same time

 

[choknater]

that's crazyness. i'll try that tactic

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

It's really good if you Wavedash in with it as an approach and space it.

An example is me against a Falcon on Dreamland. I wavedash in with DANFsmash(don't feel like typing it out) and the Falcon leaps up to a side platform and tries to waveland off with an aerial. I immediately dash back in and aerial him before he hits Nana.

I was also experimenting with Pivot Smash desynchs as well. I see potential but I dunno exactly where to place it. :/ I'll experiment more.

 

[choknater]

i'll master it! yay a new tactic!