Social General Ice Climber Chat

[PokemonMasterIRL]

No I saw that, what is Choks Blizzard Trick? Is it a blizzard desynch of a laser?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yeah, it's when you short hop forward and blizzard when Falco shoots a laser. Popo takes the laser and Nana's blizzard continues normally.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Ahhhh ****.

 

[choknater]

dayummmm i didnt even kno that was my trick

i ****

but yea falco is such a hard matchup lol... only reason i kno is cuz when i play falco against ic's, it seems really easy. just run up, laser dthrow, and spam fsmashes.... and combo nana... LOL

when i get hit though im like fuuuuuu

ice blocks are REALLY annoying. and getting dash attacked is like 'i could never have seen that coming'

ic's dash attack is pretty good cuz like, whats the point of falco shielding? its just hard to get him in that spot though.

 

[Wobbles]

I remember posting about it on my own a long time ago, and most people told me it was interesting but too risky and silly.

Against Shiz and PP (and against most Falcos honestly) the in-game pressure starts getting into my head and it often gives me lots of trouble doing my normal IC stuff against them. Once I start panicking and just throwing out moves, it's really over -_-. I'm not sure how I won the Shiz match really (besides my Nana being too good) but against PP I started strong and then as he brought it closer and closer I was thinking, "crap no I can't let this go" and it only made me play worse.

I'm going to make a blog post about specific attitudes while playing; I thought a lot about this on the plane and train rides that I took to get home, so I'd like to share what I've found.

And I also need to rework on my efficiency again; it used to be my strong point but lately it's fallen off in favor of trying to see the game in a different way. I need to find a way to blend my current mental game (which is pretty strong) with my old efficiency game (which WAS ridiculous, for awhile) and top that off with some more technical consistency.

 

[choknater]

you got this wobbs!!!!!

i need to work on my mindset too, i just gotta focus on the game rather than think about 'i gotta win' lol

 

[Binx]

I remember posting about it on my own a long time ago, and most people told me it was interesting but too risky and silly.

Against Shiz and PP (and against most Falcos honestly) the in-game pressure starts getting into my head and it often gives me lots of trouble doing my normal IC stuff against them. Once I start panicking and just throwing out moves, it's really over -_-. I'm not sure how I won the Shiz match really (besides my Nana being too good) but against PP I started strong and then as he brought it closer and closer I was thinking, "crap no I can't let this go" and it only made me play worse.

I'm going to make a blog post about specific attitudes while playing; I thought a lot about this on the plane and train rides that I took to get home, so I'd like to share what I've found.

And I also need to rework on my efficiency again; it used to be my strong point but lately it's fallen off in favor of trying to see the game in a different way. I need to find a way to blend my current mental game (which is pretty strong) with my old efficiency game (which WAS ridiculous, for awhile) and top that off with some more technical consistency.

I've seen so many people try and play aggressive against you and just get absolutely *****, I really think you would be unstoppable if you could just gain that "winner's confidence" that the other top pros have, I say other because you are definitely not just a pro anymore, you are a top pro, good **** wobbles.

edited for extra *** kissing =D

 

[Wobbles]

Well, I think that everybody has their own winning mentality, the one that puts them in the right frame of mind to execute and read the other guy.

For instance, one commentator at Evo2010 was describing a Tekken player as being incredibly aggressive, and that he played his best when he "didn't respect his opponent." It gave him the confidence and viciousness to pull off fast strings, quick reads, and really get in the head of the other guy.

For me, I played with almost NO technical errors during my first matches against Mango and Silent Wolf, and I went into them completely and utterly certain that I was going to get wrecked. I was so nervous that I didn't eat anything until about 5:00 in the afternoon when I had one (1) cookie from Subway. Later when I played against M2K, I had a ton of people telling me I was going to win, that I had this, and I went into the match believing I'd already won. Surprise surprise, I make a bunch of errors that get me 2-0'ed. It doesn't help that--according to M2K--he was playing totally on with his Fox. I'm gratified that he actually fist-pumped and said "Yes!" when he beat me though; kind of made me feel good that he considered me a strong and legitimate threat as a player.

Against PP, I had the same problem; I was too certain in my victory and when he started making a comeback game 2, I dropped CG after CG because I was too busy clinging to the win. Then, instead of picking PS I went to FoD thinking "this is my level, I can't possibly lose." And then I got wrecked. Against Mango--despite his hangover--I managed to secure leads and then keep them because I didn't believe I'd won until I actually had.

Part of what might have happened is I started getting too preoccupied with the placings I would get for beating my opponents, and thinking "If I can beat M2K I get guaranteed 3rd," or "If I beat PP I take 4th," or whatever. I wasn't thinking that against Mango, Silent Wolf or Shiz, and my skill and focus in those games was substantially greater.

I also played a lot of IC dittos with Chu and I think they might have been my best, sharpest, smartest gameplay of the entire tournament. I was not preoccupied with anything but trying to read him and prove that I was just as smart and capable a player as him, with the added benefit of a more modern and up-to-date metagame. As a result, I played incredibly well during those friendlies. Then again, ICs don't really have major pressure tools like Falco and Fox do, so that might have given me freedom to think and assess things better.

Overall, I'm not sure what my next direction is besides, as always, get my tech consistent. Not faster or more tricky, but simply get to 100% at the necessary level for victory. The only way for me to sharpen my tournament mindset will be more tournaments.

 

[Binx]

Yeah I do better when I just worry about playing well instead of outside factors, I did better vs silent wolf than against technical no name fox's the last tourney I went to.

Not to belittle anyone's skills of course.

 

[smakis]

something random, during the sny tourney the last couple of days i slightly messed up the bair oos timing quite often, this had an interesting side effect though. Popo would roll but since nana is 6 frames after popo she got out of shieldstun and baired oos. This setup for techchases and at a little higher % maybe grabs and other stuff.

 

[john!]

Well, I think that everybody has their own winning mentality, the one that puts them in the right frame of mind to execute and read the other guy.

For instance, one commentator at Evo2010 was describing a Tekken player as being incredibly aggressive, and that he played his best when he "didn't respect his opponent." It gave him the confidence and viciousness to pull off fast strings, quick reads, and really get in the head of the other guy.

For me, I played with almost NO technical errors during my first matches against Mango and Silent Wolf, and I went into them completely and utterly certain that I was going to get wrecked. I was so nervous that I didn't eat anything until about 5:00 in the afternoon when I had one (1) cookie from Subway. Later when I played against M2K, I had a ton of people telling me I was going to win, that I had this, and I went into the match believing I'd already won. Surprise surprise, I make a bunch of errors that get me 2-0'ed. It doesn't help that--according to M2K--he was playing totally on with his Fox. I'm gratified that he actually fist-pumped and said "Yes!" when he beat me though; kind of made me feel good that he considered me a strong and legitimate threat as a player.

Against PP, I had the same problem; I was too certain in my victory and when he started making a comeback game 2, I dropped CG after CG because I was too busy clinging to the win. Then, instead of picking PS I went to FoD thinking "this is my level, I can't possibly lose." And then I got wrecked. Against Mango--despite his hangover--I managed to secure leads and then keep them because I didn't believe I'd won until I actually had.

If I ever see you again at a major tourney, just say the word and I'll start **** talking and discouraging you so that you have the right mentality.

 

[PEEF!]

Luigi.

There has to be a key to this MU. It is almost as dumb as dittoes =/

 

[KirbyKaze]

Blizzard a lot.

D-throw U-smash and then Uair a lot.

 

[choknater]

luigi is the same as the puff and ganon and dk matchups to me

they dont have projectiles and are not that fast so u just hide behind blizzards and approach when necessary. usually approaches arent even needed

ice blocks tap luigi, and just getting one good smash attack puts u in a **** position. being below him is good, edgeguarding him is awesome. when both chars are on the ground, it can be difficult to fight luigi but blizzards and blocks really help a ton against his superior wavedash

pretty ez matchup, i used to HATE it and think it was impossible, but its pretty ez now

 

[ChivalRuse]

What am I doing wrong vs this Luigi?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hOrCpfB-aI

 

[choknater]

simply put: you are trying to approach


when luigi is in ur face, his aerials and stuff will beat u

u have better range, the best way to use it is not to get in his face but make him come to u. i noticed when u WERE trying to use blizzards and blocks, it was working in ur favor hehe.

 

[PEEF!]

Chival, I watched your match vs that falco, when you are sopo you have to throw out attacks sometime, you WD to sheild every time which is what i often catch myself doing, but youve got to make a guess!

 

[ChivalRuse]

I throw out attacks a lot. Just that Falco did a lot of unsafe things, so I was trying to be cautious and wait for opportunities to punish any outright mistakes.

Check out my set vs DashDanceDan from Round 2 Pools. I catch him with "random" smash attacks at crucial moments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-zEfiKiyjE

Game 1 is pretty silly. But I manage to stay patient and take the set!

 

[Smasher89]

Wobbles- Something really wierd, that should be the opposite, but isn´t, atleast for me for some reason is that eating before the tournament(as in the same day, if the tournament starts early) makes me easier overthink things as you describe, and therefore playing with a worse mindset.

If I´ve not eaten, I think I don´t have like the spare(or wasted energy in recycling the food) energy to overthink and just get to play more efficient, without any negative thoughts at all, which leads to better technical play and less errors.


Not sure about how they do it in other sports, but I know in like, is it in skiing they eat alot of pasta a few days before to get more energy for their competition? not sure at all how they do just before the race though.

 

[Nintendude]

I actually never get hungry at tournaments. I bring a sandwich for lunch and eat it before brackets start but then I'll just not be hungry for dinner. It's kind of weird...

In addition to using your projectiles, up-tilt is decent against Luigi. It seems to be one of the faster and safer ways to approach him if you read his short-hop. WD under him and up-tilt and it'll stop anything he tries to do.

PEEF I disagree with "throwing out attacks." I think that throwing out attacks with ICs means you aren't reading your opponent and are just hoping he screws up but that doesn't work at really high levels of play. It particularly doesn't work with ICs because their safe pressuring moves are pretty situational. I'm guilty of occasionally throwing out attacks though, particularly short-hop Bair (which even really good people seem to run into). I also tend to get frustrated when I can't find openings and try to make them run into stuff. It does work a lot but it's also preventing me from being a top player.

I wish my pools were recorded
Especially in pool 2 I was really on top of my game. Just not on top of it enough to beat eggm and finish off PP
I think the only stuff of mine that got recorded was me playing my first match of the day against Mango LOL

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I usually bring a few raisins to tourneys and never eat them. I don't eat very much in general, so a lack of food rarely phases me. It'll occasionally get to me if I eat very little over the course of a few days, which I do think has affected my performance in some multi-day tourneys.

 

[PEEF!]

I'm made fun of as being the kid that doesn't eat on tournament weekends. I generally eat about the day before I leave, and right after the tourney is over.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Right after I get home from a tourney is binge hour.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I have a lot of trouble focusing when I'm the least bit hungry or tired. We all work differently I guess.

I usually prioritize warming up over eating, but this really gets to me at locals where I usually end up skipping meals and feeling tired before my first match even starts. I might have to start coming prepared with raisins.

particularly short-hop Bair (which even really good people seem to run into)

I think it kind of depends on what your definition of "throwing out moves" is. Randomly attacking the space around your opponent is definitely a bad idea, but on the other hand I don't think it's possible to with a game solely by punishing what the other player does (what would you do if the other player never approaches you?)

Sometimes it's possible to throw out moves without making yourself vulnerable; b-air is a good example, I think. The window to punish it is very small, and unless your opponent is above you or nowhere near you, it's pretty safe--the worst case scenario is that your opponent realizes you're not vulnerable, and chooses not to run into it. Hungrybox throws out a lot of moves, for example, but his opponents run into them much more frequently than they successfully punish him.

Wobbles (or Fly?) once pointed out that Chu never does a move unless he has a reason to. That doesn't mean he never approaches his opponent with fulljump u-air--he does (often)-- but he only does it when he thinks they'll jump into it, and he's right most of the time. Smash is like constant RPS, but if you notice the tendencies of your opponent, you can make educated guesses with odds that are in your favor. If your opponent is constantly waiting for you to wavedash in and punishing, you can overshoot an f-smash knowing that he probably won't shield or fulljump. On the other hand, if you attack out of your wavedash enough, they might start reacting to it by jumping over you or shielding, in which case it's better to wavedash towards them, wait, and react accordingly.

I don't know if I completely misinterpreted your post, or if this actually contradicts what you said at all, but I felt like it was worth posting about regardless.

 

[Nintendude]

I have a lot of trouble focusing when I'm the least bit hungry or tired. We all work differently I guess.

I usually prioritize warming up over eating, but this really gets to me at locals where I usually end up skipping meals and feeling tired before my first match even starts. I might have to start coming prepared with raisins.

You guys should start doing what I do and pack a sandwich beforehand. It saves money and it only takes you a quick 5 minutes to eat.

Wobbles (or Fly?) once pointed out that Chu never does a move unless he has a reason to. That doesn't mean he never approaches his opponent with fulljump u-air--he does (often)-- but he only does it when he thinks they'll jump into it, and he's right most of the time. Smash is like constant RPS, but if you notice the tendencies of your opponent, you can make educated guesses with odds that are in your favor. If your opponent is constantly waiting for you to wavedash in and punishing, you can overshoot an f-smash knowing that he probably won't shield or fulljump. On the other hand, if you attack out of your wavedash enough, they might start reacting to it by jumping over you or shielding, in which case it's better to wavedash towards them, wait, and react accordingly.

I don't know if I completely misinterpreted your post, or if this actually contradicts what you said at all, but I felt like it was worth posting about regardless.

I don't really consider this stuff just throwing out moves. This is reading your opponent and attempting to punish accordingly. In the hbox / bair example, I consider that baiting responses. Throwing out moves is using stuff without any sort of game plan except hoping that it works.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I had a half gallon of milk and a whole package of mothers taffy cookies, after my $5 dollar Subway footlong and a bottle of water.


I warmed up while in my nice food coma.

I suck, but yesterday I went 1-2 instead of the usual 0-2.

I am improving even if it is ever sooo slightly.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Solo Popo questions

If popo started the game as a solo Ice climber not only how would he fair (pun not intended) on the tier list but How would you play as him? Can I have a list of the changes that comes with Ice climber strategy if he starts of as just solo popo.

 

[PEEF!]

I have a lot of trouble focusing when I'm the least bit hungry or tired. We all work differently I guess.

I usually prioritize warming up over eating, but this really gets to me at locals where I usually end up skipping meals and feeling tired before my first match even starts. I might have to start coming prepared with raisins.



I think it kind of depends on what your definition of "throwing out moves" is. Randomly attacking the space around your opponent is definitely a bad idea, but on the other hand I don't think it's possible to with a game solely by punishing what the other player does (what would you do if the other player never approaches you?)

Sometimes it's possible to throw out moves without making yourself vulnerable; b-air is a good example, I think. The window to punish it is very small, and unless your opponent is above you or nowhere near you, it's pretty safe--the worst case scenario is that your opponent realizes you're not vulnerable, and chooses not to run into it. Hungrybox throws out a lot of moves, for example, but his opponents run into them much more frequently than they successfully punish him.

Wobbles (or Fly?) once pointed out that Chu never does a move unless he has a reason to. That doesn't mean he never approaches his opponent with fulljump u-air--he does (often)-- but he only does it when he thinks they'll jump into it, and he's right most of the time. Smash is like constant RPS, but if you notice the tendencies of your opponent, you can make educated guesses with odds that are in your favor. If your opponent is constantly waiting for you to wavedash in and punishing, you can overshoot an f-smash knowing that he probably won't shield or fulljump. On the other hand, if you attack out of your wavedash enough, they might start reacting to it by jumping over you or shielding, in which case it's better to wavedash towards them, wait, and react accordingly.

I don't know if I completely misinterpreted your post, or if this actually contradicts what you said at all, but I felt like it was worth posting about regardless.

This is exactly what I was saying. Nintendude kindof made me just look stupid by going on about how I said "throwing out moves" when we all know that it doesnt literally mean throw out moves, but try to make a good read, even if it isn't a 100% punish. A good example is vs Falco. If you just do nothing but WD>sheild, Falco can easily never give you any opprotunity to punish what he does. YOu will get slowly whittled away and never hit him. Sometimes you have to mindgame him into an fsmash or pivot grab or something, sopo has so little Oos vs people who don't get sheildgrabbed.

I used the term throwing out moves to spare myself from having to give one of those long winded explanations like Kyu so graciously did for me.

 

[Smasher89]

Is there any pictures of the double forward B hitbox?, I´m quite curius about that and the framedata on the end(possibility to follow up?), since it seems that it can lead to things on platforms...

 

[Nintendude]

Sorry for unintentionally kind of making you look stupid, PEEF.

Anyway, I just discovered almost 45 minutes of me playing an infinite time warm-up match vs. Mew2King's Marth (and Peach) at the beginning of Apex day 3. We were both sort of experimenting with all sorts of things and asking each other questions. Feel free to comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEuEk4Yh6P4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqftKBFeFYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoupV1R5Dco

Mew2King, when discussing some anti-ICs tactics with me, said "I'm gonna assume Wobbles is smarter than you" LOL

edit: also found our livestream set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxgDnMRNOhM

 

[Smasher89]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vciEE5t3Pg
5.30 Makes me believe that the fiorward bs hitbox is big in the middle and can work as some kind of pressure like the iceblocklanding that has been discussed earlier, just not into grabs...

 

[smakis]

i feel stupid for just realising you can desynch after whiffed grabs x)

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Lol, its a good bait IMO.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The whiffed grab desynch is okay. It's basically a spot dodge desynch that takes three frames longer and doesn't give you any invulnerability frames. However, while everybody under the sun knows about the spot dodge desynch, most people won't expect a desynch after a whiffed grab. It's still fairly situational, though.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

grab to crouch, with nana charging a dsmash, looks like you are both crouching, I have done it on a platform and got people to jump into it, while nana charges the dsmash you have to crouch un crouch with popo tho.

^_-

 

[Wobbles]

Check out the APEX thread for my MMs versus MacD and JMan!

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I wish I was that good at hitting Peach with bair.

Actually, I wish I wasn't terrible against her in general.

 

[ChivalRuse]

As least you're good at dealing with lasers.

Man ... Falcos were shutting me down at Apex.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Just don't shield constantly and let Popo take the lasers like a man. That or shoot ice blocks over them.

A question whose answer may actually be somewhat important to me: if you're above Peach and she throws a turnip at you, will dair stop it?

 

[Vts]

so watching a few of my matches i really suck and get lucky and win against people i shouldn't.

:D

but also see things that shouldn't work on people work.

a lot

i kind of feel like what wobbles said about another IC player.

i just throw moves out hoping to land .

its true

maybe someday i'll be as good as fly ,chival, or wobbles