choknater
Smash Obsessed
some day i hope to be as good as roninater
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I just became aware that of my habit of doing this too.
i kind of feel like what wobbles said about another IC player.
i just throw moves out hoping to land.
Its a hurdle, but I am getting over it.
I think that is a good measurement of ones skill level of an IC, if you are still in that realm of " THrowing out moves and hoping they land" Land.
Im trying to get to "Only throwing out moves when I know they will land" Land.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
There are reasons for using moves aside from hitting your opponent. For example, if I know that a Fox will try to full hop nair over blizzard, I'll have Nana blizzard to bait him into jumping and then utilt -> grab with Popo.
AshuRawRun
Smash Apprentice
You play IC like if you were playing chess, I like that
http://www.youtube.com/user/summonedfist
More vids! Lots of dittos between me and Chu if you're interested. I'm the green one, 4th player.
More vids! Lots of dittos between me and Chu if you're interested. I'm the green one, 4th player.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Sweet! I really need to learn dittos.
cjugs
Smash Ace
and who might this great player be and who's he main sir.
His name is Jay, he got 13th at SMYM9, so hes been around awhileee. He mains Jiggs, Falcon and Marth. Plays a little Falco too.
Dittoes are my hardest MU, and I have no idea what to take away from these vids. Mind giving us a mini matchup description?
Also, I am playing against a really good Falcon now, and I'm having a much harder time catching him out of his approaches than I normally do vs Falcon. There are 2 situations that piss me off more than any others:
1: Knee>jab>knee. There is pretty much no way to avoid getting your shield kneed. Well I can never shield grab him, so I usually try to WD out, but the jab catches me wether I go backwards or forwards and I remain in a bad position. If I roll I he knees wherever i go. I don't know what to do in this situation. Maybe nair OoS?
2: Sideb>jab. Similar situation as Knee>jab. Assuming he hits the front of my shield, I cannot WD out of shield to jab. What happens is he will jab first, then jump, my jab will come out, and he will knee me. I am convinced that I cannot jab fast enough. So I know that he is going to jab every time both after the sideb, but I don't think there is anything I can do to punish it. Maybe fading fair OoS?
Help yo!
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
1. Wavedash backward out of shield.
2. SH fair out of shield.
2. SH fair out of shield.
ArstNeio
Smash Apprentice
Stupid question but I don't know how to end my wobbles lolz I tried the Dsmash right after you see Popo headbutt and it didn't work, neither does the 1-2-1-2-1-2-smash method that someone else mentioned I forget who and where though (sorry). Whenever I try to end my wobbles with a smash I just end up throwing them, or sometimes the smash comes out but it comes out while Popo is throwing and so only the throw knockback affects. If it matters I'm using the C-stick to smash but I don't think that should matter. What going on?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You can time the finisher based on sound alone. D-smash works well because it's fast.
Listen for the distinction between sounds. To illustrate, let "@" be the sound the tilt makes and let "*" be the sound Nana's jab makes.
When you hear @ count a number in your head. Then when you hear * think "one." Next time you hear @ think "thou," and the next * think "sand."
The effect is you hear @*@*, and you are telling yourself "x one thousand."
@*@*@*@* = "One one thousand, two one thousand."
Press down on the c-stick at "sand," and Nana will d-smash, and it should kill them if they're high enough.
Listen for the distinction between sounds. To illustrate, let "@" be the sound the tilt makes and let "*" be the sound Nana's jab makes.
When you hear @ count a number in your head. Then when you hear * think "one." Next time you hear @ think "thou," and the next * think "sand."
The effect is you hear @*@*, and you are telling yourself "x one thousand."
@*@*@*@* = "One one thousand, two one thousand."
Press down on the c-stick at "sand," and Nana will d-smash, and it should kill them if they're high enough.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
If you think he's going to jab you can intentionally grab/drop shield and cc it, although it's very risky if he just goes for another knee, or for a raptor boost. You can't actually punish the knee itself, so don't try to jump or wavedash unless he knees too early. If you buffer a roll out of his jab, he shouldn't be able to react to it (theoretically he might be able to catch you with a frame perfect raptor boost, but--he's not a robot is he?), although if he goes for a gentleman instead, his second jab might catch Nana during her vulnerability. I hate to say it, but it's difficult to beat Falcon from your shield, and the best way to deal with this situation is to avoid getting cornered in the first place.
B-air oos beats raptor boost, but if you're facing forwards there aren't a lot of good options. B-air or n-air *might* work but I haven't tried them yet, and wd -> jab is a couple frames too slow. You can easily wd away and punish him if he commits to something stupid, or you can try wding towards him -> cc -> grab or d-smash, since his only safe options from that situation are jab and shield iirc. Note that the wavedash has to be done as perfectly as possible, or you might still be in lag when he jabs you.
B-air oos beats raptor boost, but if you're facing forwards there aren't a lot of good options. B-air or n-air *might* work but I haven't tried them yet, and wd -> jab is a couple frames too slow. You can easily wd away and punish him if he commits to something stupid, or you can try wding towards him -> cc -> grab or d-smash, since his only safe options from that situation are jab and shield iirc. Note that the wavedash has to be done as perfectly as possible, or you might still be in lag when he jabs you.
Thanks for the advice, but I really think that falcons jab catches you even if you WD out backwards. This could be me messing up timing, but it happens alot.
I thought about the CC thing, but if I sheildgrab and hold down when he jabs, will that count as CCing? If so, I will be trying that out.
I thought about the CC thing, but if I sheildgrab and hold down when he jabs, will that count as CCing? If so, I will be trying that out.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I would probably roll behind him after the jab. If he does that annoying thing where he doesn't fast-fall and waits to see what you do before committing to a knee, then wavedash backwards after the jab instead. You could also try to challenge the knee with nair in that case, but it's probably not worth it. Most Falcons don't do that and just knee right in front of you, though, so rolling should be fine.
What about sideb? Or are you grouping them together.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I was referring to the knee -> jab -> knee.
In the other case, I would keep shielding until I think I have an opportunity to roll or wavedash away.
In the other case, I would keep shielding until I think I have an opportunity to roll or wavedash away.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
After knee or raptor boost? After knee, if he does it late enough, you can't roll or wavedash in any direction without the jab hitting you (so you have to wait for the jab, but then there's plenty of time to buffer roll away). After raptor boost, he has a 16 frame disadvantage. If you did a frame perfect wd jab oos, you're jab would actually beat his, but doing that consistently isn't practical, and he could beat it by holding L or R. If you don't try to jab, though, you can cc to beat his jab, which gives you 4 or 5 frames of leeway to do the wavedash. Wavedash away is much easier because you don't need to be out of lag--you just need the momentum to move out of his jab range, which happens a lot sooner.
I'm not sure if it will count as a cc, but the asdi down should at least keep you on the ground and give you time to punish.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Speaking of wavedashing OoS after raptor boost, something I do sometimes is wavedash OoS past Falcon. This doesn't directly lead to anything, but it does put Falcon in an awkward position where he can potentially get hit with dsmash, utilt, nair/bair, or sometimes a grab.
For dittos, read movement. That's mostly it. Spend all of the fight judging the timing of their WD approaches and seeing if they attack or shield when they do it; if they attack, dodge and punish or interrupt it. If they shield, grab. Mix up the spacing on your WD so that sometimes you're going farther than normal and you can catch them as they retreat.
Movement reading pretty much makes you good at this game, honestly. Try watching players and see if you can guess when they're going to attack or approach or go for fake-outs and see if you can't spot the little differences in movement. They're kind of like tells in poker, I guess.
Movement reading pretty much makes you good at this game, honestly. Try watching players and see if you can guess when they're going to attack or approach or go for fake-outs and see if you can't spot the little differences in movement. They're kind of like tells in poker, I guess.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Okay, here's how to deal with raptor boost -> jab and raptor boost -> raptor boost at the same time. After the first raptor boost hits, wavedash oos as soon as possible (it's favorable to not have Nana light shielding, because that will actually make Falcon hit Popo closer to the end of the move's duration), hold down, and d-smash or jab. If he jabs, you cc, and if he goes for another raptor boost you can easily hit him with a move before the hitbox comes out. If you're at a low enough percentage to cc the raptor boost, you could even try wd oos into empty cc (and grab whatever they hit you with), although that risks being kneed or something if they decide to mix it up.
Raptor boost after knee on shield is a pretty good mix-up, but if you're at low percentage you can still whiff a grab/drop your shield and cc grab. Rolling behind him or away from him should also work. Either he'll whiff the raptor boost completely, which should give you time to wd grab him, or he'll pretend he hit you and stop where you rolled, in which case you have less time. I don't know off the top of my head whether rolling towards him will take you far enough behind him, or if rolling away from him will take you far enough away, but one of them should work so try it out.
Oh, and by the way, this all assumes you're fullshielding his moves. Lightshielding/shield trick are nice ways to avoid being shield stabbed or getting pushed away from pressure, but if you actually want to punish what he's doing and get him off your back you'll need to fullshield. If you successfully punish one of his mix-ups it pays off anyways, because by the time he tries to go offensive again your shield will be back at full health.
Raptor boost after knee on shield is a pretty good mix-up, but if you're at low percentage you can still whiff a grab/drop your shield and cc grab. Rolling behind him or away from him should also work. Either he'll whiff the raptor boost completely, which should give you time to wd grab him, or he'll pretend he hit you and stop where you rolled, in which case you have less time. I don't know off the top of my head whether rolling towards him will take you far enough behind him, or if rolling away from him will take you far enough away, but one of them should work so try it out.
Oh, and by the way, this all assumes you're fullshielding his moves. Lightshielding/shield trick are nice ways to avoid being shield stabbed or getting pushed away from pressure, but if you actually want to punish what he's doing and get him off your back you'll need to fullshield. If you successfully punish one of his mix-ups it pays off anyways, because by the time he tries to go offensive again your shield will be back at full health.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hey guys got videos coming up hehe
i just won a tournament
set against mexican, a close set against hmw's falcon, and then another set against mexican
as a special treat u guys also get to see my young link in teams videos where i GOT OFF
some notes about my ics improvements:
- i was able to bring my aggressive style back. no foxes/falcos today, so i didnt get to improve on that matchup which was what i wanted... but its ok cuz i won :D
- dependent on momentum... but i think shffl fair is a good and safe move to use even if u whiff like if im trying to just be patient and safe, i can throw out fairs cuz trying to desynch stuff (which is what i normally rely on) can be unsafe.
- reading jumps *****. uair too good
- blizzard works against every character except maybe falco and peach. love that move
i just won a tournament
set against mexican, a close set against hmw's falcon, and then another set against mexican
as a special treat u guys also get to see my young link in teams videos where i GOT OFF
some notes about my ics improvements:
- i was able to bring my aggressive style back. no foxes/falcos today, so i didnt get to improve on that matchup which was what i wanted... but its ok cuz i won :D
- dependent on momentum... but i think shffl fair is a good and safe move to use even if u whiff
like if im trying to just be patient and safe, i can throw out fairs cuz trying to desynch stuff (which is what i normally rely on) can be unsafe.- reading jumps *****. uair too good
- blizzard works against every character except maybe falco and peach. love that move
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
<333333
I can not wait.
I can not wait.
chocnater- played some against Armada this weekend and a wellspaced shield means a wellspaced up-b OOS blizzard that seems wo work well against peach, if he approaches(with fair), just iceblock, if he gets far away, observe the movement, maybe possible to hit with neutral B =)
choknater
Smash Obsessed
that is so awesome that u get to play against armada lol.
wait when are u supposed to ice block? use it as a reaction to the fair??
wait when are u supposed to ice block? use it as a reaction to the fair??
Yea, shorthop iceblock when she gets closer for going to the fair.
Peach will want to stay a little bit higher when spacing the fair if you get the blizzardhitbox out, to try avoid getting hit by it, but still keep close to ground so the uair won´t be able to poke.
IC's have both the hammerhitbox if she gets really close, but more importanly the shorthop iceblock that in most cases seem to hit her as long as she tries to approach.
Only counter seems to be a stitch but catching it is no real problem, especially if you bait it by a retreating wavedash, giving more time to react on the stitch and also being able to space it so it´s easier to catch. And stitches can lead to grabs =)
Peach will want to stay a little bit higher when spacing the fair if you get the blizzardhitbox out, to try avoid getting hit by it, but still keep close to ground so the uair won´t be able to poke.
IC's have both the hammerhitbox if she gets really close, but more importanly the shorthop iceblock that in most cases seem to hit her as long as she tries to approach.
Only counter seems to be a stitch but catching it is no real problem, especially if you bait it by a retreating wavedash, giving more time to react on the stitch and also being able to space it so it´s easier to catch. And stitches can lead to grabs =)
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
About to get some Zhu training, awww yeaahh.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
whaaaa where at?
Vts
Smash Champion
Well found some new tricks but going to work with them some more to see if they are worth it.
basicly some are the platform dropping stuff
another is a mix up for chain grab and maybe set up into hand off easier but got to work these little things out first.
i'll keep you guys updated.
basicly some are the platform dropping stuff
another is a mix up for chain grab and maybe set up into hand off easier but got to work these little things out first.
i'll keep you guys updated.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i like fair a lot now, good move
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I learned a lot from watching you play Chok, you have such a different play style it made me look at a lot of things differently.
Oh and the Zhu training was in San Jose, Zhu is my homie, him and HydroKirby (Chris) were the first two smashers I met in Nor Cal.
My Icys are shaping up.
Oh and the Zhu training was in San Jose, Zhu is my homie, him and HydroKirby (Chris) were the first two smashers I met in Nor Cal.
My Icys are shaping up.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
How exactly is that missed l-cancel desync done?
Binx
Smash Master
In my experience popo has to connect on something that nana doesn't and you just l cancel and plan on being desynched, there are really weird windows for it though so I'm never sure if I am going to be desynched or not, it happens the most with fairs for me.
Something I've been messing with more lately is the short hop fast fall desynch, I do those wobbles wavelands and every once in a while instead of wavelanding I just jump again really quick into a fair and cover it with a blizzard or a full hop ice block or even another fair, if your opponent isn't approaching its a really nice way to throw out some pressure.
Something I've been messing with more lately is the short hop fast fall desynch, I do those wobbles wavelands and every once in a while instead of wavelanding I just jump again really quick into a fair and cover it with a blizzard or a full hop ice block or even another fair, if your opponent isn't approaching its a really nice way to throw out some pressure.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
L-cancel the moment before hitting the ground and Nana will miss it for some reason. I'm not really sure why it works, but you can get a similar effect if you u-air/d-air (I can only get it with fulljump)/ice block/jump right before you would land. So either there's a 6 frame window before hitting the ground to desynch (u-air comes out on frame 6) or Nana is offset by a few frames for some reason (Popo's u-air comes out, but Nana's auto-cancels).
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hehe thanks miles
even in tourny sets i tend to go on aggressive outbursts, it's just how i play. i was a fox/falco main before becoming an iceys main, and my habit of approaching just stuck. im like the opposite of fly (though sometimes i feel his style is more effective, eh, its just a matter of me improving)
rather than waiting to find openings, i sometimes tend to rush in and force more openings once i have momentum. i've learned against my recent experience against puff ganon marth and dk that i should really take it slow sometimes, but every character has openings where an aggressive ic's can really take advantage
recently ive been mostly inspired by mango videos... i pretty much only sit through videos of him lol. everyone else i just kinda skip parts of the vids, unless its some epic falcon ditto or some cool character (mario, pikachu) being used. everyone seems to have the same tendencies when it comes to reads and stuff, only mango and armada are at the level where they get amazing reads. armada tends to read jumps more... but mango uses more **** characters that can stay in people's faces. he forces rolls and really knows how to get in someone's head and then get in their face. it's just so good. he knows every option out of shield, how to space each move, every option on a platform, reads wakeup options, edgeguards well on reaction, knows when to retreat/gain center stage, etc. and does so all naturally. watching him is the best and gives me confidence to get the same reads, hehe
just gotta figure out peach...................................................................
even in tourny sets i tend to go on aggressive outbursts, it's just how i play. i was a fox/falco main before becoming an iceys main, and my habit of approaching just stuck. im like the opposite of fly (though sometimes i feel his style is more effective, eh, its just a matter of me improving)
rather than waiting to find openings, i sometimes tend to rush in and force more openings once i have momentum. i've learned against my recent experience against puff ganon marth and dk that i should really take it slow sometimes, but every character has openings where an aggressive ic's can really take advantage
recently ive been mostly inspired by mango videos... i pretty much only sit through videos of him lol. everyone else i just kinda skip parts of the vids, unless its some epic falcon ditto or some cool character (mario, pikachu) being used. everyone seems to have the same tendencies when it comes to reads and stuff, only mango and armada are at the level where they get amazing reads. armada tends to read jumps more... but mango uses more **** characters that can stay in people's faces. he forces rolls and really knows how to get in someone's head and then get in their face. it's just so good. he knows every option out of shield, how to space each move, every option on a platform, reads wakeup options, edgeguards well on reaction, knows when to retreat/gain center stage, etc. and does so all naturally. watching him is the best and gives me confidence to get the same reads, hehe
just gotta figure out peach...................................................................
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I like that Peach is easy to hand off, and I found out that she is pretty easy to kill with a grab to semi charged smash.
Not saying grabbing her is easy.
Also, much like you pointed out to me, that Blizzard is really important in the Marth match up, I am starting to think it is really important vs Peach.
Not saying grabbing her is easy.
Also, much like you pointed out to me, that Blizzard is really important in the Marth match up, I am starting to think it is really important vs Peach.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
yea but peach's float height really screws blizzard and makes it useless. if peach di's it properly, u cant really punish it either... (up and away, jump.... or beast DI like a cpu, SDI toward ic's and nair/jab)
if all she does is float... its like impossible to grab her lol
idk. maybe a macd style peach i can do it cuz he approaches all the time, but if shes playing kinda gay its reallly hard to find ways to approach her
i think i just need more friendlies experience, cuz in tournament i usually cop out to falco
if all she does is float... its like impossible to grab her lol
idk. maybe a macd style peach i can do it cuz he approaches all the time, but if shes playing kinda gay its reallly hard to find ways to approach her
i think i just need more friendlies experience, cuz in tournament i usually cop out to falco