Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Fly_Amanita]

Nintendude, you try to fight from bad positions in doubles too much. Sometimes you need to just roll away or light-shield and wait for things to get better, but you very frequently try to throw out moves while under a lot of pressure.

 

[Nintendude]

Yeah I played depressingly on the livestream. I got really nervous playing in front of an audience and it was m2k and jman lol. I flubbed just about everything I tried, including short-hops (that's what all the random full jump bairs were) Thanks for the tips though.

But goddammit I'm really upset about the singles tourney. Despite managing to take Cactuar to last hit of the 3rd game and Dr. PP to the 3rd game, I was stuck in a 3-way tie for 2nd in the second round of pools. I was tied with Eggm and Tag who had 8 wins each while I had 7. I beat Tag but wins had priority over head to head and I didn't make the cut.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The seeding of the pools seemed a little sketchy; I didn't actually see them, but when I heard that you, Tope, and DoH didn't make it out while a mediocre Socal Falco did, I knew something had to be wrong.

 

[Nintendude]

Yeah I definitely did not agree with the pools seeding. I believe one of the second pools had Cyrain, Darc, Hax, Swift, and Aniolas. Even my first pool was absurd. Cactuar, ArcNatural, PB&J, Lord Karn, myself, and a random Falco. You may have not heard of some of those guys but they all play ridiculously technical Foxes and ArcNatural and Lord Karn (and Cactuar of course) in particular are known as really good players from their regions. I just BARELY made it out of that pool despite it being a first round pool! It all came down to the 3rd game vs. Karn, in which he decided to try to time me out on DK64. Luckily he eventually got impatient and I got an infinite on him, and then he got really frustrated and pretty much blew it, but I felt bad for him because he was way better than some of the people who made it out of round 1.

The main issue was that all the pools with a top pro were really easy. They seemed to have the mentality of balancing out a top-pro pool by filling the rest of it with mediocre players, but it doesn't work that way at all. In fact, that only makes it easier to advance. Tag came up to me earlier today and said that he showed up late because he figured that I made it out of pools and not him (since I beat him). So as soon as he got to the venue he heard his match called vs. Silent Wolf and got owned because he had no time to warm up whatsoever.

My teams pool was ******** as well. They actually left me and Swift out because they forgot to add us to a pool when they removed us from another one, so they just put us in pool 1 which consisted entirely of players from our home region (including m2k sort of).

Ok I'm done ranting about how bad the pools were >_>

Good **** Wobbles taking down some huge names today.

 

[choknater]

these days every pool is hard

 

[Winston]

The seeding was definitely off. On top of skewing the pools with top pros in them, I think there were some last minute switches dealing with players from the same crew/region being in the same pool.

The tournament was not quite optimally run...

also, sup nintendude, you are really good

 

[Kyu Puff]

The seeding was definitely off. On top of skewing the pools with top pros in them, I think there were some last minute switches dealing with players from the same crew/region being in the same pool.

as far as i know, the only changes were to make pools easier or harder. plank wouldn't switch me out of my second round pool despite having someone from the same state (matt.zeb) and someone who was also in my first round pool (doll).

the rest of my pool was macd, colbol, and plank... a lot of people said they thought my pool was easy, but it definitely wasn't for me and i probably would've taken any other pool over it. my set with colbol was a lot of fun, i almost beat plank*, but i got ***** by macd and doll and left feeling pretty disappointed. i tried to help matt get out because he beat macd and doll (stupid stuff like this happens when you mess up regional seeding) but somehow plank and macd both ended up with one more win than him.

*i beat him game 1, game 2 i had him offstage at 120+% as zelda, but i got nervous and flubbed an edgeguard after he changed back into sheik and ended up losing (it didn't help that people were saying it's over every time he hit me). game 3 i took him to pokemon stadium but he camped every transformation really hard. it went to one stock and somehow i got timed out (****ing plank...) it was actually kinda funny and i didn't really care until i found out that matt would've made it out if i beat him.

edit: i'd be surprised if this was new, but here's an interesting desynch: you can buffer a move with nana whenever both ice climber get hit. for example if fox n-airs you, you can cc and c-stick down, and after the hitstun ends only nana will d-smash. this could be useful to combo into grab after ccing moves that were outside of your grab range. there are probably other applications but i'm too tired to think of any right now.

 

[Finch]

Can we talk about Wobbles vs Colbol from crews real quick because I thought it was hilarious but I'd like to hear Wobbles' take on it.

Also Wobbles is awesome I'm so proud of him for getting 5th and for beating Mango even though Mango was being a lame sandbagger. Remember when he had that super close set with Mango and everyone was saying Wobbles might be the only one who can beat Mango? And now he did it Good job buddy!

 

[DoH]

Pools were ****ing stupid

First round: me/blunted object/mattdotzeb/sauce

Second round: me/hbox/eggz/ib/savedged/smasher89

To be fair wobbles had help from jack daniels

 

[Nintendude]

Wow those are both completely nonsensical pools -_-
Even worse than mine probably.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

These pools were really weird. The "death" pools here were the average pools at Pound... was that just because of number difference in the last pool or just because there were less "good" players at Apex?



But yeah, seeding was whack as **** LOL. I have no clue who did pools, but somebody ****ed up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pools were ****ing stupid

First round: me/blunted object/mattdotzeb/sauce

Second round: me/hbox/eggz/ib/savedged/smasher89

To be fair wobbles had help from jack daniels

Your second pool is like my dream pool except for Hungrybox. Assuming savedged plays Marth.

TWO MARTHS.

OH MY GOD.

TWO MARTHS.

I can see how that would be awful as Peach, however.

 

[Winston]

as far as i know, the only changes were to make pools easier or harder. plank wouldn't switch me out of my second round pool despite having someone from the same state (matt.zeb) and someone who was also in my first round pool (doll).

I was referring to the first round pools mainly. Originally Thumbswayup and Voodoo (same region, good friends, teammates, etc.) were in the same R1 pool, so they got that switched, which ended up switching TheLake out of my pool. Also Chillin told me that I was originally in his pool and he got that switched too. I was just assuming that if the regional conflicts happened with a lot of MD/VA players, then it was fairly widespread.

I'm pretty sure R1 pools weren't done by Plank, but R2 pools were, so that is probably why you didn't get yours switched.

Also hearing the story of your match with Plank from both sides is pretty funny

These pools were really weird. The "death" pools here were the average pools at Pound... was that just because of number difference in the last pool or just because there were less "good" players at Apex?

But yeah, seeding was whack as **** LOL. I have no clue who did pools, but somebody ****ed up.

yeah, this. I think the problem was mostly with the R1 pools.

Your second pool is like my dream pool except for Hungrybox. Assuming savedged plays Marth.

Savedge plays mostly Falcon. I'm sure you'd be fine with that too.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm a noob, guys. But can you critique me, anyway?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6BqE0TiCTg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aLYpj1qmN4

Merci beaucoup!

 

[Kyu Puff]

Also hearing the story of your match with Plank from both sides is pretty funny

What did he say?

 

[Plairnkk]

yeah seeding for pools was pretty atrocious....it was not done by me, haha.

 

[DoH]

What did you guys think of me and wobbles in livestream teams?

 

[Vanitas]

Congratulations to Wobbles for such a high placing
Just a random question...what does KRAD mean?

EDIT: Also, this tournament should prove that wobbling isnt sooooo broken after all! It should be legalized imo

 

[Wobbles]

Somebody used a camera to record something like fifteen IC dittos between me and Chu. If anybody finds them on youtube, let me know.

KRAD is a tag based on the name of a friend of mine. K. Rademaker turns into KRAD.

I'm... ambivalent about my performance at APEX. On the one hand, I played really well to make it to M2K... on the other hand, I dropped the ball multiple times in my matches against him and PP--obvious stuff, like whiffing lots of CGs and infinites--and so I'm not happy with how I was eliminated.

But 5th is 5th and that's pretty **** good, tied with 5th at SCC for my best large-scale performance, though this was much bigger. I'm going to spend the next few months trying out new methods of holding my controller and just NOT playing ICs at all to see if I can increase my technical consistency and understanding of other characters.

 

[Strong Badam]

hey robbles im proud of you for your performance at apex, so what if you made some mistakes you played better than any ic's ever

and are you going to pound 5? i want to play you

 

[Wobbles]

Unless I'm suddenly very rich, probably not

But we'll see!

 

[Cosmo!]

it made me extremely sad when you would end a wobble early and not get the KO

 

[Wobbles]

That wouldn't have happened if I'd had the d-smash timing right at the end and hadn't thrown them backwards for the reverse hit But I was nervous and ruining lots of guaranteed openings and things.

The world will END if I can ever get my technical consistency down, I swear to god.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

That wouldn't have happened if I'd had the d-smash timing right at the end and hadn't thrown them backwards for the reverse hit But I was nervous and ruining lots of guaranteed openings and things.

The world will END if I can ever get my technical consistency down, I swear to god.

I always wondered why people didn't dthrow -> usmash more out of wobble, as the noobest IC I always found that easiest =(

 

[PB&J]

Yeah I definitely did not agree with the pools seeding. I believe one of the second pools had Cyrain, Darc, Hax, Swift, and Aniolas. Even my first pool was absurd. Cactuar, ArcNatural, PB&J, Lord Karn, myself, and a random Falco. You may have not heard of some of those guys but they all play ridiculously technical Foxes and ArcNatural and Lord Karn (and Cactuar of course) in particular are known as really good players from their regions. I just BARELY made it out of that pool despite it being a first round pool! It all came down to the 3rd game vs. Karn, in which he decided to try to time me out on DK64. Luckily he eventually got impatient and I got an infinite on him, and then he got really frustrated and pretty much blew it, but I felt bad for him because he was way better than some of the people who made it out of round 1.

The main issue was that all the pools with a top pro were really easy. They seemed to have the mentality of balancing out a top-pro pool by filling the rest of it with mediocre players, but it doesn't work that way at all. In fact, that only makes it easier to advance. Tag came up to me earlier today and said that he showed up late because he figured that I made it out of pools and not him (since I beat him). So as soon as he got to the venue he heard his match called vs. Silent Wolf and got owned because he had no time to warm up whatsoever.

My teams pool was ******** as well. They actually left me and Swift out because they forgot to add us to a pool when they removed us from another one, so they just put us in pool 1 which consisted entirely of players from our home region (including m2k sort of).

Ok I'm done ranting about how bad the pools were >_>

Good **** Wobbles taking down some huge names today.

when i talked to alex strife the first day he said he was going to change our pools and he didnt plus g$ shouldnt of made it out over tope, plank over mattdotzeb ,and a few other pools were sketchy too.

i pointed it out to hbox the third day and he agreed with me , but he didnt have the power to change it..i always hated pools and always will..

oh and i think me and nintendude were the only people who took cactuar to the third game in pools..tourny was fun though..just some parts were sketchy

 

[Plairnkk]

when i talked to alex strife the first day he said he was going to change our pools and he didnt plus g$ shouldnt of made it out over tope, plank over mattdotzeb ,and a few other pools were sketchy too.

i pointed it out to hbox the third day and he agreed with me , but he didnt have the power to change it..i always hated pools and always will..

oh and i think me and nintendude were the only people who took cactuar to the third game in pools..tourny was fun though..just some parts were sketchy

g$ had a better record than tope. i beat mattdotzeb and had a better record than him, lol. Nothing was "sketchy". It was only poorly organized and I attempted to salvage what I could so things could get done. The pools suck because first round of pools were horrible and I had no power over those. When pools are based on previous rounds, they just get worse and worse and then the bracket sucks too, theres not much that can be done. Pools are good, but it's vital that they are good from the start.

Also i disagree with the way he did pools (# of matches overweighing head to head in the event of a tie) but thats at the choice of the TO, and is always up for debate

 

[Kyu Puff]

g$ shouldnt of made it out over tope, plank over mattdotzeb

Just wondering why you think this... maybe they deserved to make it into bracket, but why did they deserve it more than the people who did better than them in their own pool?

 

[Vts]

Unless I'm suddenly very rich, probably not

But we'll see!

Little rock gamecon sept 3rd-5th its a bunch of game and u should be able to win melee iori and most of memphis is coming so 20+ show up and first place is 70% of the pot so easy $100+ for taking first.

no teams though saddly

but think a lot of memphis people are coming so maybe 30 people is what i'm really feeling for it but memphis likes to flake out sometimes.

also its like a mini anime convention so we can be the weeaboo ******s we are and we can bro out i got the gamecube just bring the naddy ice....bro

last year was amazing got to meet the johnny yong bosch aka Vash The Stampede (trigun), Ichigo (bleach), Kiba (wolf's rain). Also met diago the MVC champion from last year.

this year is ok with people, sandthrax , jago, and Troy baker (voice actor)

 

[Fly_Amanita]

People should go to DGDTJ!, a Norcal tourney in December.

 

[PB&J]

Just wondering why you think this... maybe they deserved to make it into bracket, but why did they deserve it more than the people who did better than them in their own pool?

tope and g$ were tie in tourny sets and tope beat g$, in most cases tope would make it out but since g$ had one more win then tope he made it out which i dont agree with, but its ok , whats done is done, cant change the past

 

[Nintendude]

Yeah that's the exact same thing that happened with me and tag.

When it comes to winning / losing the most important question should be "who won the set?" Head to head comparison takes this into account and wins does not.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I really don't agree with that. The most important question should be "who's the stronger player?" and the head-to-head is usually a poor measure of that.

Say you beat someone good that ends up getting first seed, but lose to a Peach player and tie with them for third seed. Does the Peach deserve to advance just because they won a highly advantageous match-up? Should your win against the first seed be weighted less than their win against you?

Distinguishing between 0-2's and 1-2's is important because they sometimes indicate the difference between a double 4-stock and a close set that could go either way (sometimes there are 0-2's that are close both games, but 1-2's are usually closer anyways). If you use head-to-head as the first tie-breaker you're going to be ignoring this most of the time.

 

[Plairnkk]

@kyu puff thats alex's side of the argument. I just totally feel like a set should be treated as one whole entity. The matches within mean nothing, only the set really matters.

That being said I think a set to set evaluation (head to head) is the best way to determine who moves on.

Using matches first over head to head is simply way too advantageous for characters who can abuse counterpicks the hardest.

 

[Wobbles]

I'm in favor of head-to-heads over round counts because you're seeding players for the bracket, and in bracket the round count doesn't matter. People don't only half go into loser's bracket because they took a round off the guy who beat them. First place is first place regardless of Grand Finals being 3-0, twelve stocked or going to last stock last hit last game.

And of course, if two people are even in terms of wins and losses in a bracket and they both get 5th place, there's only one way to see who gets 5th and who gets 6th: they play it out. You don't count their wins or losses throughout the tournament, you just have them play and see.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I think the new stage rules are fair enough that counterpicks rarely guarantee a win (this is coming from an ICs player), and if you lose on your opponent's counterpick it's usually because they outplayed you.

Wobbles: But pools are round robin, not double elimination. The point is that you and the other player have the same number of set wins, they just happened to beat you in the head-to-head. It's more like if they beat you in winners, you go on to tie them for 5th, but you automatically get 6th because you lost to them earlier in the tournament. Technically you did the same as them, you just beat different people. If anything, the records of the people you beat should tie-break over the head-to-head.

 

[PEEF!]

That wouldn't have happened if I'd had the d-smash timing right at the end and hadn't thrown them backwards for the reverse hit But I was nervous and ruining lots of guaranteed openings and things.

The world will END if I can ever get my technical consistency down, I swear to god.

Constructive criticism from a bad kid:

First, you wobble too fast, you wobble almost as fast as possible. That is why they mess up sometimes. You should slow down, it is still infinite, and you won't mess it up.

Secondly, to avoid the reverse dsmash, why don't you start counting (in your head) "1-2-1-2-1-2" when you are getting close to ending the wobble, and see which number is corresponding to Popo's headbutt. If it is "1", then keep counting 1-2-1-2 and then dsmash right as you would say "1" and the dsmash will hit forward perfectly. This style is pretty much nervous-proof.

 

[PB&J]

Yeah that's the exact same thing that happened with me and tag.

When it comes to winning / losing the most important question should be "who won the set?" Head to head comparison takes this into account and wins does not.

even tag didnt think he should of made it out..but i guess we should do a poll or something for the next big tourny

 

[Fly_Amanita]

To continue PEEF's trend of giving advice to a superior player, I think the way you handle lasers could improve a little, Wobbles. IIRC, Shiz and PP trapped you in your shield a lot with lasers, but Falco shouldn't be able to do that to ICs very well. For one thing, I don't think you use ice blocks often enough; they never lead to much directly, but they do interfere with Falco's momentum. I also want to note that while you make good use of wavedashing into lasers and having Nana fsmash, you can also do move forward -> pretty much any ground move or ice block, as well. I personally like walk/wavedash -> ice block, as it sends a projectile towards Falco and also immediately desynchs you. Ftilt is a good substitute for fsmash for the times when fsmash might be a little too slow or when you want to commit to something less laggy than fsmash. I also like having Nana run forward and dash attack after Popo takes a laser; it reaches decently far and can combo into a grab. Choknater's blizzard trick (I'm going to start calling this CBT since I don't like typing that whole thing) is pretty good; I no longer agree with my old complaint that you get punish hard for doing it if you guess incorrectly, because you can just short hop forward and blizzard on reaction to a laser. No guessing is necessary, although blizzard does admittedly come out a bit later this way than it does otherwise.


The next part of this post isn't directed at Wobbles in particular and is mostly me brainstorming or going over old ways of dealing with lasers. One thing I just thought of would be dtilt through lasers. Dtilt is a weird move that can combo sometimes, but the semi-long duration of the move limits its use as a combo tool. Of course, if only Nana dtilts, as she would if Popo takes a laser, Popo should be able to combo off of it, maybe even into a grab. I'm pretty sure this would lose to CC'ing at low percentages, though.

While CBT is good, it would be especially nice to have a way of having Nana blizzard forward while remaining on the ground. One thing that I've probably mentioned here before, that I'm almost positive I've tested (and I'm almost positive that this worked) would be to walk/wavedash forward and input a blizzard command while Popo is in hitstun from the laser. This should be good and I don't know why I don't do it.

Another thing that I don't think would work, but want to check anyways would be doing the synced blizzard on the ground backwards and having Popo take the lasers, so that Nana blizzards forward. A couple ideas about accomplishing this would be to either do a long wavedash forward while facing backwards and doing blizzard or wavedashing forward and turning around and doing blizzard. IIRC, Nana always does the synced blizzard in the same position with respect to Popo, though, so I don't think my ideas for getting Popo a bit in front of Nana such that only he takes the laser would work. I might be wrong about that, which would be nice.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

What is the CBT?

=P

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's me being lazy.

To continue PEEF's trend of giving advice to a superior player, I think the way you handle lasers could improve a little, Wobbles. IIRC, Shiz and PP trapped you in your shield a lot with lasers, but Falco shouldn't be able to do that to ICs very well. For one thing, I don't think you use ice blocks often enough; they never lead to much directly, but they do interfere with Falco's momentum. I also want to note that while you make good use of wavedashing into lasers and having Nana fsmash, you can also do move forward -> pretty much any ground move or ice block, as well. I personally like walk/wavedash -> ice block, as it sends a projectile towards Falco and also immediately desynchs you. Ftilt is a good substitute for fsmash for the times when fsmash might be a little too slow or when you want to commit to something less laggy than fsmash. I also like having Nana run forward and dash attack after Popo takes a laser; it reaches decently far and can combo into a grab. Choknater's blizzard trick (I'm going to start calling this CBT since I don't like typing that whole thing) is pretty good; I no longer agree with my old complaint that you get punish hard for doing it if you guess incorrectly, because you can just short hop forward and blizzard on reaction to a laser. No guessing is necessary, although blizzard does admittedly come out a bit later this way than it does otherwise.