Social General Ice Climber Chat

[FlamingForce]

I haven't heard the term nanaport before

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think he's referring to the "nanapult".

 

[FlamingForce]

Well whatever he's describing I can't get it to work :\

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I assume it's about the relatively useless Nana teleport that happens if you drop through a platform and blizzard right before you land on the ground.

 

[Smasher89]

Yes it is that Nana teleport.

That is wierd since being resynched shouldn't allow that desynch to happen.

 

[ChivalRuse]

How does it desync you? Is it simply because of the buffer time needed for Nana to drop through the platform after Popo?

 

[Custom]

Sorry to interrupt but quick question I didn't want to make a thread for:

What happens when you hear the power shield noise but the projectile doesn't reflect? I assume its something with the 2 shields..

 

[DerfMidWest]

[continued bellow because smashboards only allows me to upload 3 files per post]

@ DerfMidWest for some reason the images are not loading for me :/ but thanks for the reply on the frames/location, ill just practice in training mode with the jump on haha

Frame 19

Frame 20

Frame 21

 

[DerfMidWest]

[continued]
Frame 22

 

[ChivalRuse]

During which frames does the meteor occur?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Should be all 4 frames where the move is active.
Unless its actually the middle hitbox, in which case it would only be 20-22.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the subjacent hitbox.

 

[xKobayashi]

Thanks for all the help!! @ DerfMidWest

 

[Kyu Puff]

Pivot u-air to create separation between Popo and Nana is amazing. I messed around with it today and felt like an impenetrable fortress when I had center stage.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Describing it as a pivot uair is a bit misleading since the jump does not need to be a pivot jump, but it's a pretty cool trick. I also think doing a similar thing with bair to thrust Nana forward while Popo remains behind her has some underutilized potential against at least some characters (e.g. Fox) since you could potentially hit them with Popo if they go after Nana in the case in which the bair whiffs. The hitlag they experience from hitting Nana could even make the punish more lenient than it seems like it might be.

 

[941]

Are you talking about dash dancing into a U-air/B-air, or is this more like a pivot desync sort of thing?

 

[Kyu Puff]

Describing it as a pivot uair is a bit misleading since the jump does not need to be a pivot jump, but it's a pretty cool trick. I also think doing a similar thing with bair to thrust Nana forward while Popo remains behind her has some underutilized potential against at least some characters (e.g. Fox) since you could potentially hit them with Popo if they go after Nana in the case in which the bair whiffs. The hitlag they experience from hitting Nana could even make the punish more lenient than it seems like it might be.

True, I just don't know what else to call it. "Dash forward then backward aerial" is a few too many words...

"Staggered" b-airs are cool too, but the situations where they work are less intuitive. You would need to be careful about throwing them out when Fox has the option to approach from above, since if he managed to attack over Nana, a single shine would separate you and give him the opportunity to kill Nana for free. I could see it working when you've lost some ground and need to push back to center stage from under a side platform.

U-air works in pretty much any situation where you would use a regular u-air. Since it puts Nana closer to them, they can't actually attack Popo unless they somehow get underneath you. For this reason I found sh staggered u-airs to be incredibly safe when someone is messing around on the side platform; it allows you to attack part of the platform without giving them any opportunity to hit you or take center stage.

Are you talking about dash dancing into a U-air/B-air, or is this more like a pivot desync sort of thing?

More like a dash dance I guess. You dash forward and then backward, and then immediately jump into an aerial. Depending on how you time it, you can create various amounts of spatial separation between Popo and Nana so that their aerial hitboxes cover more horizontal space.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

If you're concerned about vertical approaches, just delay the bair until you're sure they can't get over it. If you see them full jump near the start of your short hop, you can do a late uair.

 

[ChivalRuse]

These algorithms Kreygasm

 

[Smasher89]

Yea, ive been implementing the dash forward then backwardstrick for a bit, its great for covering full plRetreating bair that way seems very hard to punish too, and if they get a punish on nanas autocanceled bair, popo is still free to move and possibly able to punish their lag from hitting nana.

 

[Samwisely]

I've been having a lot of issues dealing with space animal shine pressure recently. I'll do fine in bracket until I hit a technical fox or falco, and I can't deal with the shield pressure and mental pressure they put up. I know it's not unbeatable, but I'm really struggling against it right now. My neutral game is getting better, but then once I get hit (whether on shield or not), it all goes downhill. I'm assuming this has to do with OoS options, but I can't figure it out by myself, and I don't have any other ICs near me to get advice from.

Any tips?

 

[Smasher89]

I

Any tips?

Make sure you practice intensely for a couple of weeks before the tournament so youll have good reactions to everything. Thats basicly what makes it or breaks it for me, getting either a 3-0 against foxes or losing 3-0, i guess its part of whats called a glass cannon.I do wiev the matchup that the player thats most on point will win, theres no cheap way for either player to get the win, youll have to grind it out in your favour. Take it with a grain of salt though since we probably have different playstyles, and for advice, rolls arent always terrible.

 

[DerfMidWest]

More like a dash dance I guess. You dash forward and then backward, and then immediately jump into an aerial. Depending on how you time it, you can create various amounts of spatial separation between Popo and Nana so that their aerial hitboxes cover more horizontal space.

You guys are using the dash forward? I use pivot jumps to do these so it stops popo's momentum.
I also really like using the lil thing where you input a jump with nana in popo's initial dash to do solo ac uairs (wobbles does these with bairs a lot, which are cool too, but I like using uairs more to interrupt platform movement).Pivot jump nairs are also interesting.

I've been having a lot of issues dealing with space animal shine pressure recently. I'll do fine in bracket until I hit a technical fox or falco, and I can't deal with the shield pressure and mental pressure they put up. I know it's not unbeatable, but I'm really struggling against it right now. My neutral game is getting better, but then once I get hit (whether on shield or not), it all goes downhill. I'm assuming this has to do with OoS options, but I can't figure it out by myself, and I don't have any other ICs near me to get advice from.

Any tips?

Generally you just want to avoid that situation all together.
AC uair, dair, and nair OoS are alright if they are close to you. Light shield can be used to push you further away.You can shield grab high aerials, but don't bank on that. A lot of ICs look for this option too much and it doesn't happen all that often against decent spacies.
Usually you want to look for a chance to roll out, but you have to mix up how/when you do this.One interesting thing I've been playing with is shield stun desyncing to buffer a roll with nana. I noticed that I did this a lot by accident, and would panic and try to get to nana, but my opponent would usually be chasing her already, so I've started using this intentionally to bait my opponent into chasing nana if they are looking for rolls (which most spacies are), then punishing with popo.
It's not the best option all the time by any means, but it's a decent bait and a pretty cool little trick to have for dealing with this situation.

 

[Samwisely]

You can shield grab high aerials, but don't bank on that. A lot of ICs look for this option too much and it doesn't happen all that often against decent spacies.
.

Yeah, I definitely over-rely on shield grabs. I've been breaking the habit, but still have a bit to go.

AC uair, dair, and nair OoS are alright if they are close to you.
.

I'll work on my aerials when they're up close, to have some more options. The only one I tended to use was bair, and it's the only one you didn't use.

Usually you want to look for a chance to roll out, but you have to mix up how/when you do this.
.

I feel like I get punished a ton for this. How are you mixing it up so they don't have any easy time reacting?



And thanks, gives me some stuff to think about.

 

[Smog]

Wobbles said if they are shining till ur cryin, you can just wait for their obvious (if it is obvious) shine approach, time it correctly, run up and grab. Then they panic after such a hard read type thing while you wobble or chaingrab them.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yeah, I definitely over-rely on shield grabs. I've been breaking the habit, but still have a bit to go.

This is super common among all us low-mid level ICs, being aware of it is an important part of fixing it. The idea isn't to not shield grab, just to only do it when it's appropriate.

I feel like I get punished a ton for this. How are you mixing it up so they don't have any easy time reacting?

If you're getting punished a ton for it, you need to mix up where you roll or when you roll.So like what I do is occasionally I roll Immediately when my shield gets hit, sometimes I wait a while longer. Also you shouldn't roll in every time. On occasion you need to mix in spot dodges or roll away or every buffer jump in the right situation.Getting your shield pressured is really not a situation you want to be in at all, but when it's happening you just need to be mixing up the options you choose enough to keep them guessing.When people panic they tend to have go to options, and that's usually what people look for when pressuring shields.Also pay attention to the way they are pressuring your shield.Sometimes fox players will dair ICs shield so it's easier to Lcancel or they can get inbetween the ICs, unless they dair super low or it's 1.0, you can usually shield SDI back and their shine will whiff and you can grab.Pay attention to how they like to shine. Do they always aerial again immediately? Do they waveland out of the shine? do they doubleshine every time they land? do they mix in shinegrab? etc. And respond to their habits accordingly.

 

[VegiLohrd]

So last Saturday I went to a monthy, and #10 on the PR counterpicked me as peach. I expected that but I played it anyway. I took him to PS. On my second to last stock he killed nana and then proceeded to almost time me out because he would just sit on the platform or float very high and just refused to touch me.

Point is, has anyone else been disrespected this badly before?

 

[Kyu Puff]

So last Saturday I went to a monthy, and #10 on the PR counterpicked me as peach. I expected that but I played it anyway. I took him to PS. On my second to last stock he killed nana and then proceeded to almost time me out because he would just sit on the platform or float very high and just refused to touch me.

Point is, has anyone else been disrespected this badly before?

If a strategy works against you, I wouldn't see it as disrespect but rather as an opportunity to gain insight into your weaknesses. It can be annoying to fight against someone who plays like that, but you also had ample time to try out different counterstrategies. For the record, I was timed out by Plank in game 3 at Apex 2010, also on PS. PS can lead to significantly longer matches if both players refuse to approach during the transformations.

Some random thoughts of the day:

- Fulljump staggered aerials (and particularly b-air) can cover almost an entire side platform in hitboxes. Could be useful for covering multiple drift options when the opponent recovers high, or covering multiple tech options when they land (though wavelanding onto the platform is usually better).

- The unusually high damage/hitlag from ICs double jab makes it easier for opponents to escape jab resets. At higher percents might be worth trying turnaround f-tilt instead, so only Nana jabs (and Popo whiffs an f-tilt in the opposite direction).

- This is something probably most people have noticed but we never really talk about: The strong hitbox of u-air seems to extend upward past the weak hitboxes for a frame or two near the beginning of the animation. I think this is why sh u-air tends to poke through platforms better if you delay it slightly, so that the strong hitbox comes out at the peak of the jump rather than during the ascent.

Something happened to my controller recently which impairs my ability to ledgedash. Currently I'm focusing on "re-learning" all of my fundamental tech skill so that my hand movements are economical and rely less on the state of my controller. Losing stocks because you can't consistently execute a basic aspect of your gameplay (i.e. fulljumping instead of wavedashing or using normal get up instead of ledgedashing) is one of the most frustrating things that can happen in this game...

 

[DerfMidWest]

I always use delayed uairs from sh on dreamland and some FoD heights.

I dislike jab reseting at higher percent in general when synced, I usually just straight ftilt or dsmash, but I haven't played around with turn around ftilt to reset with nana's jab. That sounds like something I've talked with someone about before, but I forget. I hate jab reseting with double jab almost always though.

 

[beep beep]

So apparently Nintendude 4 stocked MacD in pools during FC Return? Anyone know if it was MacD wasn't ready or did Nintendude have some special sauce? He went on to lose the set, but I'm super interested to hear what happened there.

 

[Benny P]

Hey guys

If it's okay to ask, i've been having trouble with doing the hand off grab against characters who AREN'T FOX, like Falco, C.Falcon etc. Because of character weights, how different does your timing need to be? I'm PAL btw.

Also, what is the best possible way to get a grab? cheers.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Hey guys

If it's okay to ask, i've been having trouble with doing the hand off grab against characters who AREN'T FOX, like Falco, C.Falcon etc. Because of character weights, how different does your timing need to be? I'm PAL btw.

Also, what is the best possible way to get a grab? cheers.

For handoffs just practice them on different weight characters.
The hardest for me are like samus, marth, luigi, so I practice those a lot, but I also practice the super common characters like spacies, falcon, sheik, peach, etc.
Timing depends most heavily on weight, but keep in mind the characters frame affects the window you have to regrab as well.

So really the best advice I can give is "practice."
When I practice handoffs regularly, they come very naturally to me, but when I get lazy about practice, I drop them a lot.

In regards to getting grabs, don't go out of your way. Just poke at the opponent and if the opportunity presents itself, and grabbing is convenient, take it. But ICs have non-grab things as well.

 

[Kyu Puff]

The easiest way to figure out the timing for a handoff is to "react" to the green flash as they hit the ground. I find I learn the timing much quicker if I put conscious effort into it.

 

[OddishGuy]

This likely isn't the best place to ask, but you all are the homies. Also this is where I first heard about.

How does one buffer a throw? I had assumed it was simply done by using the C-stick, but this doesn't seem to work for me. However, any mention I read of how to perform it simply says to use the C-stick so I'm at a loss ATM =l

 

[eclipsis17]

From my (limited) understanding, I believe you can only buffer a downthrow

 

[Smog]

Anyone else feel the ICs edge gimp game is underdeveloped?

 

[FlamingForce]

Anyone else feel the ICs edge gimp game is underdeveloped?

I wouldn't be surprised, but maybe elaborate?

 

[Smog]

There are 2 people to gimp with, I just feel like everyone is so scared of losing nana they never go off stage even if they could secure a kill.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Anyone else feel the ICs edge gimp game is underdeveloped?

As far as offstage gimping goes, I think often the risk greatly outweighs the reward. If you get hit once it puts you in a vastly compromised position. That said, here are some options that tend to work:

Sopo vs. Fox/Falco: If you can manage to get them below the ledge without a double jump, you can grab the ledge right before they up+B, drop low, and perform a rising d-air back onto the stage during invincibility. The d-air knocks them out of their up+B and you can sometimes repeat ad infinitum. To finish it off, most people opt to get back on stage and d-smash/f-smash, but that can fail if you don't correctly anticipate their up+B angle, so I think invincible n-air or b-air might be better.

ICs vs. Marth/Doc: If they go low and sweetspot the ledge, you can't simply stand on the stage and f-smash. Instead, at mid/high percents, you can grab the ledge and invincibly n-air to knock them further out (or potentially stage spike them). This can fail if they still have their double jump, because they can stall beneath the ledge until your invincibility runs out. If you see them trying to go low, you can spam Ice Blocks to try and steal their double jump, or desynch and have Nana Ice Block right before you grab the ledge.

ICs vs. Samus: If you hit her with an Ice Block while she's bomb jumping, she loses a considerable amount of height.

ICs vs. Falcon/Ganon: You can go for more aggressive b-airs offstage; if you catch them before their drift it can expediate the edgeguarding process (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTBFNNbCDNY#t=7m54s)


In general I think my edgeguarding game needs a lot of work. I'm trying to shift from going for reads to recognizing specific situations and reacting appropriately. One common situation that I always mess up is reacting to what Fox does after I b-throw him off the stage. Recently I've just been throwing out Blizzard in attempt to steal their double jump, but I think there's very likely a better option.

 

[Fugibean]

Ice Climbers vs Falco Neutral Game:
I consistently lose the neutral against Falco. I feel like once I get in it's basically a free 0-death, but I have trouble doing so. This is what I have gathered from my matches vs Falco about the neutral:
I generally I think when I approach I win. When Falco is far away he lasers. My solution here is dash attack or counter by spamming synced ice blocks. I think this works pretty well as the Falco usually doesn't react to the approach. My problem is when Falco comes in close and pressures me with dair. I quickly learned that sheilding was the worst idea unless the Falco doesn't understand the Ice Climbers double sheild. My solution for this was try to space myself just outside his shffl range and set up with desyncs and try to force Falco towards the edge. My idea was the stop the Falco from laser spamming and it works for the most part. My problem here was that Falco was able to attack Nana and combo her often to her death.

Basically I was wondering what I should do with Falco is approaching Ice Climbers with dair and other shffl'd ariels. Thanks for any advice.