Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Smog]

I've been working on my pivots with how well they desync. Has anyone found anything else out about them lately for IC's? Good moves out of pivots, when to use them, stuff like that? Wobbles was talking about them alot, but he hasn't streamed in awhile so I can't really ask him.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I've been working on my pivots with how well they desync. Has anyone found anything else out about them lately for IC's? Good moves out of pivots, when to use them, stuff like that? Wobbles was talking about them alot, but he hasn't streamed in awhile so I can't really ask him.

oh I love pivots.
I think wobbles has covered most of the important stuff that comes from them in his stream, but I don't think he really covered using pivots to stop your momentum (not really desync stuff, but still really useful).
This is particularly useful for things like pivot bairs and nairs out of wavelands and full wds, which I've been using a lot lately.
Another nice thing is that nana is a little further back from you (but still doesn't have momentum), so with bair you can cover a huge amount of range and still keep popo safe in cases of trading if you space correctly.
Faster than shield stopping for approaching, but shield stopping covers more space for retreating.
it's fun stuff to play around with.

 

[Smog]

When you U-tilt to grab Falcon when he uses side-b, do you have to be facing backwards? Everytime I do it facing him 1 IC seems to get hit.

 

[DerfMidWest]

When you U-tilt to grab Falcon when he uses side-b, do you have to be facing backwards? Everytime I do it facing him 1 IC seems to get hit.

nah you want to face forward. The hitboxes are like at the front and above the ICs. Their foot pokes out pretty far, but i'm fairly certain it goes under falcon's sideB.
The reason one IC gets hit a lot of the time is because there are significant holes in utilt. It's better when there are both ICs, but one of them is still likely to get poked since there is a 2 frame window between each hitbox.

I'm actually not really sure why you would want to intentionally try to utilt to clank with it when you could just ftilt it or shield grab it (with correct shield DI) though. Those two will actually work consistently.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

There's a 3 frame window to shield grab raptor boost even without any shield SDI.

 

[SHIP]

There's a 3 frame window to shield grab raptor boost even without any shield SDI.

I know that this exists but I have no idea when this window happens.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I know that this exists but I have no idea when this window happens.

I actually observed a four frame window when making this, so it's actually a variable window, but regardless, it's around here:

Roughly normal speed: http://i.imgur.com/ziSiesd.gif
Slowed down: http://i.imgur.com/F0Uug1t.gif

 

[IC-Rambler]

Ramblings of a newb IC trying to learn the marth matchup. My brain works better when I write crap down. So that's what I did. Feel free to read my thoughts on the Marth matchup when I try to piece it together. Comments are appreciated.

Man, **** this matchup. Wobbles thinks it's 100-0, agreed. I'm still pretty low level so don't have any excuse. Spacing is still a work in progress, and every decent Marth knows how to space. Ok, things that out-space Marth: blizzard (kinda)… and nothing else. Ok so you can just beat Marth with spacing, you have to use other stuff. Marth has good range, but there are gaps in his gigantic hatboxes. So the trick is to find the gas and traverse them quickly. QUICKLY, ok. What moves of IC's are fast? Jab, smash, grab. Ok, 3 good fast options right there. Tilts maybe too. Now, to find the gaps. My favorite: fsmash. If he doesn't tipper, WD grab. Fair: super tricky. Not sure what the frame data is for this situation, but I'm pretty sure a decent read and execution and get you a punish, especially if they're approaching. Fltilt: Similar to smash I think? Uptilt: Punishable as long as your grounded. If airborne, you're ****ed. Dtilt: You're ****ed. I don't really know why so many people advocate SH fair as a counter, because it doesn't work that well at all, but I guess it still works some, and more importantly its the only counter to stilt so ****. **** dtilt. Maybe if they dtilt you can retreat and try to camp with projectiles and walls. That would force them to go on the offensive and maybe you can get a sneaky roll by them to center stage or something. Rolling seems to be surprisingly effective in this matchup. I, like, never roll in during the neutral, but after watching quite a few IC-Marth matchups it seems to be a fairly common tactic. So far we've got blizzard walls, WD-> jab, grab, dsmash. Nanapults seem to be very good if you can catch them jumping. Edgeguarding: desync ice block to grab ledge, desync ice block spam, nana ledge grab. It's definitely possible. I'm gunna get with the sword, whatever, just keep moving. Attack when there are gaps, set up blizzard walls when they're are none. Airdodging and spot dodging are super good in this matchup. Whiff and attack? ->Spotdodge. Why don't I do this? Get into this habit. Triangle jumping seems to have promise, maybe I'm jut good at it. Try to nail Fly's double blizzard wall tech, seems to hold promise in this MU. WDing is really good in this matchup. Is DDing just as effective? I don't know. Probably not since Nana is a klutz. I really like DDing though. Out-DDing a marth is the best evar. Maybe DDing is better when the Marth is at a higher percentage. He's expecting a finisher and you just don't give him one. You'll probably bait a dumb option since the Marth's on nerves, then grab. Since he's at high percentage, Nana will probably come back in time for the actual finisher. Damn imma try this more. As for recovering against marth… this one's more complicated then it appears. If you have a jump, you probably don't want to use it when you're really high. Mid level seems to give you the most options. Ice blocks are good annoyances when decending. A good mixup is good pretty low like you're going for the ledge then side-b suddenly. Works with or without a jump. Airdodges on stage are legit. To be afraid to throw out a spotdodge after an airdodge. Oh, and if you have nana, just nanapult I guess. Learn to amsah tech, dammit learn to amsah tech!

 

[Mikeyy]

Anyone wanna help me with the Samus match up? I got a match vs Samus right here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUaE8_dE2g&feature=youtu.be
Fly_Amanita

 

[941]

Any thoughts on stage bans against Falcon in a Bo3? I always ban either DL or BF, but I usually just get counter-picked to the one I don't ban. I feel like DL helps Falcon's neutral game and survivability, but BF significantly strengthens his punish game. Should I ban a stage based on how the Falcon plays, or is it usually better to ban one over the other?

 

[Smasher89]

Always ban BF, that stage shouldnt be in the current ruleset anyway.(top platform camping is stronger then cornerias right wingcamping)

 

[eclipsis17]

When it comes to tech chasing spacies, is it possible to cover all tech options from down throw on reaction? I think I've heard DI away, tech away is impossible to cover.

 

[OddishGuy]

When it comes to tech chasing spacies, is it possible to cover all tech options from down throw on reaction? I think I've heard DI away, tech away is impossible to cover.

This is all pretty rough.

If you use the Gravy method (short WD immediately after throw), then it is possible to cover every option. IDK about on reaction because of course IDK how good player's reaction time is (mine sucks). You have about a 17 frame window/leniency for the inputs on tech rolls (using WD dash grab), about 20/18 for missed tech (using jab/turn around jab) and, 18/16 for tech in place (using grab/turn around grab). You can grab too soon and have the opponent still be invulnerable, though I doubt anyone is this fast.

I did this at low %. Chasing techs gets a bit harder as % rises, but this is compensated for by the fact that the initial WD can be more sloppily timed.

B-throw isn't as good, but near the ledge you don't have to worry about tech away so it's an ish mixup.

EDIT: made frame windows a lot less rough and tested at higher %.

 

[FlamingForce]

This is all pretty rough.

If you use the Gravy method (short WD immediately after throw), then it is possible to cover every option. IDK about on reaction because of course IDK how good player's reaction time is (mine sucks). You have about a 17 frame window/leniency for the inputs on tech rolls (using WD dash grab), about 20/18 for missed tech (using jab/turn around jab) and, 18/16 for tech in place (using grab/turn around grab). You can grab too soon and have the opponent still be invulnerable, though I doubt anyone is this fast.

I did this at low %. Chasing techs gets a bit harder as % rises, but this is compensated for by the fact that the initial WD can be more sloppily timed.

B-throw isn't as good, but near the ledge you don't have to worry about tech away so it's an ish mixup.

EDIT: made frame windows a lot less rough and tested at higher %.

What exactly is this gravy method?

 

[OddishGuy]

What exactly is this gravy method?

Throw -> WD forward (small WD for ICs here) -> react to tech option
Popularized by the 20GX dudes for captain Falcon reaction tech-chases.

Without that first WD forward, DI away tech in place and DI away tech away become impossible to cover on reaction.

 

[eclipsis17]

Throw -> WD forward (small WD for ICs here) -> react to tech option
Popularized by the 20GX dudes for captain Falcon reaction tech-chases.

Without that first WD forward, DI away tech in place and DI away tech away become impossible to cover on reaction.

Speaking of 20GX, I wonder if it is possible for IC's to be that tech-chasing monster that Falcon and Sheik can be.

They do share similarities, they all have a low knockback down throw which sets up for tech chasing reasonably well and all have fast ways to cover the tech options (Falcon with his huge dash dance and fast run speed, Sheik with boost grab, IC's with their wavedash).

That is, of course, assuming that the IC's options are quick enough to allow leeway for the inevitable non-TAS reaction speeds we have.

I don't often see any IC's performing any extended tech chases like you do with other characters, so I do wonder if its a case of a non reasonable time to react, or if it just hasn't been pushed to its limits.

 

[OddishGuy]

Speaking of 20GX, I wonder if it is possible for IC's to be that tech-chasing monster that Falcon and Sheik can be.

They do share similarities, they all have a low knockback down throw which sets up for tech chasing reasonably well and all have fast ways to cover the tech options (Falcon with his huge dash dance and fast run speed, Sheik with boost grab, IC's with their wavedash).

That is, of course, assuming that the IC's options are quick enough to allow leeway for the inevitable non-TAS reaction speeds we have.

I don't often see any IC's performing any extended tech chases like you do with other characters, so I do wonder if its a case of a non reasonable time to react, or if it just hasn't been pushed to its limits.

I'm starting to think they can be. Tech-chasing with WD is weird, but it seems viable.

The frame data suggests that it's possible, it's nowhere near TAS perfection to pull off.

Probably the later. Getting a wavesmash read from a D-throw is pretty rewarding with little risks, while continuing the grab->throw->chase scenario can get you shined.


TBH, even with all the hype around it, I haven't seen a lot of Falcons/Sheiks really go to town with reaction tech-chases. KK is the main one that comes to mind, but maybe I just haven't seen the Florida Falcons recently, IDK.

 

[Smasher89]

Its definitly possible, when im on point i rarely miss a techchase, even though it takes alot of effort for me personally to get really on point.

 

[SHIP]

I feel like the reason that ice climbers don't do extended tech chases is that if you successfully tech chase them once you can probably just wobble unless you are sopo.

 

[ArcDawn]

ok what do people do against platform camping ?!?! I seriously had no idea what to do when I was playing yesterday

 

[eclipsis17]

I feel like the reason that ice climbers don't do extended tech chases is that if you successfully tech chase them once you can probably just wobble unless you are sopo.

But that's just it, if Nana's not in position for a wobble/punish and the spacie is at low percent, you can either up throw -> dash attack/upsmash (although I'm not sure how truly guaranteed that is) and hope that you can get another regrab with Nana in position, or you can down throw -> techchase. Using Gravy's method, the short WD can serve to possibly resync Nana, then, if you react appropriately (and don't WD too far on the tech rolls), you can get a synced grab. If this could be done consistently, then the IC's might be able to convert any grab (synced or not) into a 0 - death.

And with Sopo, winning neutral against a spacie is hard enough, why do it more times than necessary? If you can land one grab and could tech-chase perfectly it will either lead to a 0 - death or at the very least an edge-guard. And it can be so hard protecting Nana against a good fox, playing virtually the whole match with Sopo is probably a reality.

But Oddish is right, Falcon's and Sheik's haven't been perfect at this anyway, and I doubt the IC's have an easier time of it then they do. Still, something to think about.

 

[OddishGuy]

ok what do people do against platform camping ?!?! I seriously had no idea what to do when I was playing yesterday

Against which character? Sharking with SH AC Upair can be good, FJ Upair and Fair can cover top platform, DDing is always nice, but it all depends on the character. Fox/Falco can come down with shine DJ away, and Sheik can jump -> needle to get free dmg while staying on the platform, and so on.

And with Sopo, winning neutral against a spacie is hard enough, why do it more times than necessary? If you can land one grab and could tech-chase perfectly it will either lead to a 0 - death or at the very least an edge-guard. And it can be so hard protecting Nana against a good fox, playing virtually the whole match with Sopo is probably a reality.

But Oddish is right, Falcon's and Sheik's haven't been perfect at this anyway, and I doubt the IC's have an easier time of it then they do. Still, something to think about.

Because of the nature of D-throw, if it ever gets to the point where ICs can reaction tech-chase, spacies will DI way tech away until they get themselves offstage. TBH that's pretty nice scenario even if we can't dropzone like CF and such.

Looking at the data we actually have more/just as much time as CF and Sheik, but the fact that we need to WD instead of just dash is going to be the limiting factor. WDing is pretty easy, but it's infinitely harder than just slamming the control stick in one direction =[
I've been trying something out, where I always WD. So to cover tech in place/no tech I would WD down/slightly backwards instead of just staying in place/turning around. This makes covering tech in place a bit harder, but it kind of makes the overall job easier.
No matter what the tech option is, my flowchart can be Throw -> small WD forward -> WD (unspecified direction) -> grab, dash grab, jab.

 

[eclipsis17]

Because of the nature of D-throw, if it ever gets to the point where ICs can reaction tech-chase, spacies will DI way tech away until they get themselves offstage. TBH that's pretty nice scenario even if we can't dropzone like CF and such.

Yep, either we set up for an edge guard or we catch them with bad DI off a down smash and they kill themselves.

Also another thing, if you are grabbing them near the ledge, most likely they will be conditioned to DI away off stage. If you back throw and they don't react quick enough, you can continue the tech chase back on stage for more % (as DI in on back throw doesn't send them very far). But it is a bit of a mix-up. It's probably better to just go for the guaranteed forward throw to edge guard.

I've been trying something out, where I always WD. So to cover tech in place/no tech I would WD down/slightly backwards instead of just staying in place/turning around. This makes covering tech in place a bit harder, but it kind of makes the overall job easier.
No matter what the tech option is, my flowchart can be Throw -> small WD forward -> WD (unspecified direction) -> grab, dash grab, jab.

No matter what I do, I can't seem to react fast enough to tech in place/no tech using this method, I'm always getting shined before I get out of the 2nd WD lag. My reflexes are pretty bad though, but if it works for you, it must be viable.

Side note: I want to find someone who can chain-grab CF perfectly, because then they could react to spacie DI in and regrab off downthrow, leaving DI away the only option, making the flowchart super simple. Ahh the dream...

 

[Smog]

There is a 1 frame window for both ice climbers to powershield an attack right?

 

[ArcDawn]

Against which character? Sharking with SH AC Upair can be good, FJ Upair and Fair can cover top platform, DDing is always nice, but it all depends on the character. Fox/Falco can come down with shine DJ away, and Sheik can jump -> needle to get free dmg while staying on the platform, and so on.

Because of the nature of D-throw, if it ever gets to the point where ICs can reaction tech-chase, spacies will DI way tech away until they get themselves offstage. TBH that's pretty nice scenario even if we can't dropzone like CF and such.

Looking at the data we actually have more/just as much time as CF and Sheik, but the fact that we need to WD instead of just dash is going to be the limiting factor. WDing is pretty easy, but it's infinitely harder than just slamming the control stick in one direction =[
I've been trying something out, where I always WD. So to cover tech in place/no tech I would WD down/slightly backwards instead of just staying in place/turning around. This makes covering tech in place a bit harder, but it kind of makes the overall job easier.
No matter what the tech option is, my flowchart can be Throw -> small WD forward -> WD (unspecified direction) -> grab, dash grab, jab.

well mostly fox/falco/falcon cuz those were they guys I was playing against haha

 

[OddishGuy]

Hey guys, so we aren't allowed to wobble past 300% because of stalling and all that, but what if we are waiting out a transformation on PS? Example, we're stuck in the pit for the transformation, can we wobble past 300% until the stage returns to neutral so the opponent can't tech the wobble finisher?

There is a 1 frame window for both ice climbers to powershield an attack right?

4 frame window for an attack. It's impossible for both to powershield an attack, which is cool because desync shenanigans.

2 frame window for projectiles. I don't think a synced Nana can powershield projectiles, since Popo will always block the projectile.

well mostly fox/falco/falcon cuz those were they guys I was playing against haha

Shark with Upairs, Both SH and FH depending on where they're going. Move a lot so that any aerials they come down with can whiff. Chasing onto platforms is incredibly dangerous. Stuff like nanapult onto side platform can work but if it fails you may just end up losing your Nana.
These are pretty basic answers but I'm a basic IC. Stay patient and don't give up too much stage positioning. A lot of players aren't willing stay safe 8 full minutes, even if they're winning. I don't like relying on my opponent slipping up too much but it is something to keep in mind.

 

[FlamingForce]

Hey guys, so we aren't allowed to wobble past 300% because of stalling and all that, but what if we are waiting out a transformation on PS? Example, we're stuck in the pit for the transformation, can we wobble past 300% until the stage returns to neutral so the opponent can't tech the wobble finisher?

That sounds like an unlikely scenario but I'd say the usual rules still apply, it's just a hazard of that particular stage so I don't think the rules should bend for that.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm starting to think they can be. Tech-chasing with WD is weird, but it seems viable.

The frame data suggests that it's possible, it's nowhere near TAS perfection to pull off.

Probably the later. Getting a wavesmash read from a D-throw is pretty rewarding with little risks, while continuing the grab->throw->chase scenario can get you shined.


TBH, even with all the hype around it, I haven't seen a lot of Falcons/Sheiks really go to town with reaction tech-chases. KK is the main one that comes to mind, but maybe I just haven't seen the Florida Falcons recently, IDK.

ICs can 100% tech chase most of the cast on reaction (including spaces, sheik, falcon, etc.)
It's just hard to react a lot of the time, but it's definitely doable.
They aren't sheik/falcon (or luigi rofl) but they are probably one of the best characters at tech chasing after that. WD and perfect wavelands let them cover a lot of space very quickly.

 

[Smog]

I had my first double peach bracket. halp plis. RIP in dsmash.
I kept baiting the dsmash and it has such little ending lag I couldn't punish it correctly.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I had my first double peach bracket. halp plis. RIP in dsmash.
I kept baiting the dsmash and it has such little ending lag I couldn't punish it correctly.

just gotta learn the timing. I've started doing this thing Dizz does where you eat the first hit of dsmash with light shield then wd out when the move ends.
What you can also do if you're having trouble grabbing it is desync and have nana ice block around when dsmash is ending then chase after it, but I don't like that as much because it's not as safe. You can blizzard too, but that's way less safe. Works against bad peaches, but I don't like the idea of relying on someone to be bad to get punishes.

 

[xKobayashi]

Is there a gif or post anywhere that someone can direct me to that shows where/when the meteor hitbox of ice climbers f-air is?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Is there a gif or post anywhere that someone can direct me to that shows where/when the meteor hitbox of ice climbers f-air is?

So it's really hard to look at the straight gif because fair only has active hitboxes for 4 frames, but here they are:

frame 19

frame 20

frame 21

frame 22

I always use nana's butt as a visual guide. It's that lil guy on the innermost part of the hammer (inside the ICs).

It's easiest to hit on frame 19. I basically try to be overlapping the opponent to connect it.

note that it might actually be that lil guy in the middle though, I'm not actually sure, I've just always been told it's the innermost one. Definitely not the end of the hammer though. That one would make too much sense.

 

[Kyu Puff]

There's a 3 frame window to shield grab raptor boost even without any shield SDI.

I've been saying this for years but for some reason nobody ever believed it...

 

[Kyu Puff]

Also, I made an outline for techchasing on reaction here:

My ideas for techchasing Fox (all assuming either that the grab isn't perfectly synched, or your opponent would be able to mash out before you could start a Wobble)

Situation A: Near the ledge, facing towards the ledge (but not close enough to handoff)

- D-throw
- Move slightly towards them (close enough to grab without getting hit by shine)
- Prepare to react for tech in place/no tech
- If camera bounces, they missed the tech, if camera stays still, tech in place
- Both tech rolls are easy to react to; away is limited by distance to ledge, and towards you is shortened because you're already standing in the middle of the roll distance (you can cover both with normal dash -> grab)
- Keep going till you get a Wobble/handoff
- With Sopo you can fish for d-throw -> no DI -> reverse d-smash, or cover multiple tech options with d-smash

Situation B: "Medium distance" (about half to two-thirds of Battlefield) from the ledge, facing away from the ledge

- B-throw
- Immediately wavedash at a distance that will put you in grab range
- Look for tech in place/no tech
- Covering tech rolls is pretty much identical situation A, but you have to be careful not to wavedash too far

Situation C: Near the ledge (too close for b-throw), but facing away from the ledge

- D-throw
- Immediately turn around and wavedash to the other side of Fox
- Tech roll towards the ledge will be an unpopular option, since it's easy to react to and puts them in a dangerous situation
- Tech roll away becomes much easier to cover since the distance is effectively shortened
- Still look for tech in place/no tech
- Once you get the regrab, refer to Situations A or B

Situation D: Not near any ledge (or medium distance + facing the ledge)

- This will never occur on smaller stages (Yoshi's, Battlefield, FoD)
- If Nana is synched, you can go for a mid-stage handoff, d-throw -> u-smash, or f-throw/b-throw -> ice block
- The ice block makes it easier to cover tech in place/no tech
- However, it doesn't help with tech roll away, which is probably your opponent's safest option; if they reach the end of the stage it will usually push them onto the ledge before you can get there
- D-throw techchases are possible, but it's difficult to cover every option
- On Stadium and FD, I would prefer u-throw combos in most cases

Back when I practiced it regularly with a training partner I could do it semi-consistently, but it is difficult. B-throw techchases near the ledge are the easiest to pull off. Usually I'll just go for reads or cover multiple options.

 

[941]

That meteor hitbox on F-air is really goofy. I'm honestly surprised every time it hits.

 

[xKobayashi]

@ DerfMidWest for some reason the images are not loading for me :/ but thanks for the reply on the frames/location, ill just practice in training mode with the jump on haha

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's easiest to hit the meteor when close to the opponent.

 

[xKobayashi]

alright sounds good thanks guys

 

[ChivalRuse]

I've been saying this for years but for some reason nobody ever believed it...

Is the window closer to the point when it hits your shield or more toward the end of the animation?

 

[Smasher89]

Noticed something really silly with the Nanaport.
If you Nanaport and hold up afterwards, Nana will be desynched and jump.

If you do a regular synched landing blizzard(where Nana might just teleport a short distance), holding up wont make Nana jump.