Social General Ice Climber Chat

[FlamingForce]

Ice Climbers vs Falco Neutral Game:
I consistently lose the neutral against Falco. I feel like once I get in it's basically a free 0-death, but I have trouble doing so. This is what I have gathered from my matches vs Falco about the neutral:
I generally I think when I approach I win. When Falco is far away he lasers. My solution here is dash attack or counter by spamming synced ice blocks. I think this works pretty well as the Falco usually doesn't react to the approach. My problem is when Falco comes in close and pressures me with dair. I quickly learned that sheilding was the worst idea unless the Falco doesn't understand the Ice Climbers double sheild. My solution for this was try to space myself just outside his shffl range and set up with desyncs and try to force Falco towards the edge. My idea was the stop the Falco from laser spamming and it works for the most part. My problem here was that Falco was able to attack Nana and combo her often to her death.

Basically I was wondering what I should do with Falco is approaching Ice Climbers with dair and other shffl'd ariels. Thanks for any advice.

If you can anticipate when he goes for an aerial approach you can use something with good range like bair or fsmash to punish him for it.
For the most part you've just observed (correctly) what the ICs strengths and shortcomings are, we are somewhat lacking in neutral options (Especially compared to falco who has probably the best neutral in the game) but we do have access to an incredibly strong and consistent punish game when we DO get in, this is all especially true in the Falco MU.

As an IC player you'll, sadly, have to get used to having generally poor answers to shield pressure, our quick wavedash can get you out of a tight spot if you have space to work with and there's a few other tricks like the shield-stun desync or simply reading someone's shield pressure (For instance, an early aerial after shine) and punishing that.

There's also this one trick that Fly described a while ago where you intentionally jump into falco's dair with popo and then punish with nana during the hitlag, I'm unsure about the finer points of that one though so you might have to search for it.

 

[DerfMidWest]

This likely isn't the best place to ask, but you all are the homies. Also this is where I first heard about.

How does one buffer a throw? I had assumed it was simply done by using the C-stick, but this doesn't seem to work for me. However, any mention I read of how to perform it simply says to use the C-stick so I'm at a loss ATM =l

You can only buffer dthrows.

 

[Chuckles]

Yo, Fly








10charhype

 

[Kyu Puff]

Just a random note: Apparently it's possible to drop from ledge -> Ice Block -> double jump -> solo Belay and make it back to the ledge. If somebody is standing right next to the ledge, the strong hitbox of Ice Block will hit them, and the next time you use Ice Block it won't pop you up into the air because you haven't landed on the ground yet.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

There's also this one trick that Fly described a while ago where you intentionally jump into falco's dair with popo and then punish with nana during the hitlag, I'm unsure about the finer points of that one though so you might have to search for it.

That would be this. I don't really use it since uair is a lot safer than this sort of thing, but it's still something you can potentially kill Falco reliably off of.

 

[FlamingForce]

Is Sheik's fair safe on shield? I can never quite tell lol, sometimes I get a free shieldgrab and sometimes I get jabbed for trying.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Is Sheik's fair safe on shield? I can never quite tell lol, sometimes I get a free shieldgrab and sometimes I get jabbed for trying.

Sheik's late-as-possible f-air (either auto-cancelled or l-cancelled) has a 1 frame disadvantage on shield. Sheik's tilts come out on frame 5, so she only beats you by 1 frame there, and in practice it's easier to mash the A button than it is to perfectly time an aerial tilt string on ICs' shield.

However, Sheik's jab comes out on frame 2, so perfect f-air -> jab is 4 frames faster than your grab, which gives her considerable leeway (she can time the f-air earlier and still beat jab). You can beat this by shieldgrabbing the jab, or holding down (I know ASDI is at least effective against her second jab). She can also dash away, jump, or roll before you grab. Alternatively, she can space f-air outside of shieldgrab range, in which case you're **** out of luck.

Generally, if the Sheik is experienced, it's not an advantageous position for you. It's useful to test her by shielding a few f-airs, and either holding shield, rolling, or wavedashing away to see what option she chooses. If Sheik gets too comfortable f-airing your shield, you can mix it up with an anticipatory short wd back; with good timing you can punish the whiffed f-air with a dash attack or grab.

 

[FlamingForce]

Yeah alot of the Sheik's I play do that SH backwards thing into a spaced fair, have'nt really found any good answers to that if there are any.

About that ASDI thing, does that mean you first shield the fair and then attempt to shieldgrab while holding down?

 

[Kyu Puff]

Yeah alot of the Sheik's I play do that SH backwards thing into a spaced fair, have'nt really found any good answers to that if there are any.

About that ASDI thing, does that mean you first shield the fair and then attempt to shieldgrab while holding down?

Yeah, the idea is you mash grab and hold down so that you stay grounded even if she jabs you out of it. You might also have to shield the first jab, haven't tested that recently.

Spaced f-air on shield is one of those things you need to acknowledge as safe. You can still try to anticipate what she'll do afterwards, you just can't punish the f-air itself. For example, if she jumps again you can wavedash back and either set up a Blizzard or try to punish her landing. If she tilts you can try rolling behind her, if she dashes back you can roll or wavedash away to reset to neutral, etc. But it's a mix-up--none of these options are entirely safe or foolproof.

Shieldstun desynch might be another interesting option but I haven't tried it myself.

 

[FlamingForce]

Spaced f-air on shield is one of those things you need to acknowledge as safe. You can still try to anticipate what she'll do afterwards, you just can't punish the f-air itself. For example, if she jumps again you can wavedash back and either set up a Blizzard or try to punish her landing. If she tilts you can try rolling behind her, if she dashes back you can roll or wavedash away to reset to neutral, etc. But it's a mix-up--none of these options are entirely safe or foolproof.

Yeah they usually jump again and repeat the move a couple of times as a form of pressure, in all honesty I tend to have a really good read on when they go for it, I just don't really know what to do with that knowledge tho. I'll try the WD back thingy, I haven't been practicing my short WD for a while.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Shieldstun desynch blizzards are something I have done against Sheik fairs before, but I usually opt for more normal (but aggressive-leaning) RPS OoS games nowadays.

 

[thehumanblob]

IC's are pretty bad its basically playing Sopo in teams in 2v1 situation your 100% losing and it depends on what character your teaming with like a Fox that's why I starting to use Falco in Doubles

This is completely accurate, I've tried playing ICs in teams and its just too difficult. Executing handoffs and wobbles in teams is extremely difficult to pull off and although ICs can provide decent support there are just better characters for the job.

 

[Fugibean]

If Ice climbers are in front of a character shielding do they actually have any safe shield pressure?

 

[FlamingForce]

The thing about shield pressure is that grabbing someone is always the better option anyway.

 

[Kyu Puff]

If Ice climbers are in front of a character shielding do they actually have any safe shield pressure?

I still haven't gotten around to fixing this thread, but yes ICs have safe shield pressure, primarily auto-cancelled b-air -> d-smash or more generally late aerial -> fast grounded move. Nana effectively gives you an extra 6 frames of shieldstun, which gives you a frame advantage on several moves. However, if you're already grounded you would usually be better off grabbing.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ice-climbers-shield-pressure.280913/

 

[eclipsis17]

So I've been experimenting with WD Forward -> Spotdodge -> Desynch. What do you guys think of its utility?

Do the invulnerability frames on the spotdodge provide enough protection that this might actually be semi-viable as an approach?

It acts like a wavesmash but you can stagger the smashes how you choose, with the lag from the spotdodge as the downside of course. And you always have the option to throw out a blizzard.

I'm not sure, it seems situational at best, although it would be an interesting counter to DD -> grab (not that many people would be trying to grab a pair of IC's).

 

[FlamingForce]

What exactly is the frame data on ic's spotdodge? How long does it last and when is it invincible

 

[Kyu Puff]

Spotdodge should be used sparingly when both ICs are together. Since Nana acts 6 frames after Popo, you are only fully invulnerable for 11 frames (out of 27 total, or 33 before Nana can act). There are 12 frames where only Popo or only Nana is invulnerable, and the other Climber can be hit... so you're more likely to be separated than to actually dodge a move.

If you want to wavedash forward into staggered smashes though, there are other options. For example, wavedash -> dash away -> immediate c-stick f-smash will cause Nana to smash alone, while Popo dashes away. Wavedash forward -> pivot c-stick smash will cause Popo to perform the smash alone. Wavedash forward -> simultaneously dash backwards and c-stick down will cause Popo to turnaround d-smash, while Nana dashes away, but it only works with d-smash. None of these take very long to set up.

 

[FlamingForce]

All of those are rather tricky and inconsistent options tho, pivots especially.

 

[Kyu Puff]

All of those are rather tricky and inconsistent options tho, pivots especially.

Pivots generally require that your control stick has a slightly bigger-than-normal deadzone and take a bit of practice. I can do all of those options consistently but I'm still working on figuring out where to implement them in a game.

 

[OddishGuy]

WD backwards towards your opponent (or turn around while WDing) into guard desync into Nana smash is relatively good too. If you don't turn around before the guard desync, WD into guard desync into Nana D-smash can be pretty swell, but I like getting that F-tilt rather than the jab.

That said, pivots aren't the hardest thing in the world , and they're definitely worth learning.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Pivots become very very easy to do consistently once you learn them, especially pivot smashes or pivot grabs.
I pivot desync all the time when I play.
Definitely worth it.

I always struggled with them, but then when I just sat down and practiced them a bit over the span of a few weeks, I just started being able to do like empty pivots and pivot jabs and things consistently.
Techskill always kind of just clicks once you get your hands used to it.

 

[FlamingForce]

Everyone probably knows this video, seeing as it's 8 years old.

That being said, the video shows something I've never been able to get the hang of, which is the continuous wavedash desyncs where 1 climber throws out a move, wavedashes forward, and then the other climber does the same thing.

My problem is Nana's command range, whenever I use her to WD forward she ends up out of the command range and doing nothing, I've tried tighter control stick angles but I honestly end up with the same thing most of the time.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Popo should be in front of her when she starts the wavedash. An easy way to set it up is dash backwards -> Nana f-smash (c-stick input during the turnaround) -> Popo wd f-smash -> Nana wd f-smash etc. Those moving desynchs don't have a ton of practical application in real matches though.

 

[FlamingForce]

Yeah I know, but they look cool.

 

[OddishGuy]

Yeah I know, but they look cool.

If you want to look cool and be optimal, you could learn wobbling with aerials :D

 

[FlamingForce]

If you want to look cool and be optimal, you could learn wobbling with aerials :D

No thx I don't wanna switch to Falcon :D

 

[FlamingForce]

Coming back to the Sheik MU, I have vids this time around

This was played on Netplay with a friend of mine, so it isn't EXACTLY like console (I tend to flub alot of my reactions to tech options, I'm not a particularly fast player. I'm usually just quick enough to chase people on reaction, but the couple of frames of reaction time that I lose on netplay usually put me over that edge where I'm no longer fast enough)

So again, one of the main obstacles that I encounter is her fair, I've tried using spaced fsmash to punish her landing the spacing seems tricky and just not really worth it, on top of that she usually just throws needles at me when she catches me trying to line it up.

I also don't feel comfortable going for the RPS OoS stuff because I tend to lose Nana for guessing wrong.

As far as CCing her goes, It's a very common piece of advice that I've always had alot of trouble using, CCing her fair just gives her free damage and as far as my experience goes she can often use her aerial mobility to weave out of punish range when you try to CC her bair, her tilts reach too far for CC to really do much unless she really misspaces them...

 

[Kyu Puff]

Update on using turnaround f-tilt to jab reset:

Since the f-tilt also desynchs you, it can lead to some really flashy combos. For example...

Synched f-air (grounds opponent) -> turnaround f-tilt (Nana jab resets) -> Nana charge d-smash -> Nana release smash and Popo grab -> death

Synched f-air (grounds opponent) -> turnaround f-tilt (Nana jab resets) -> Nana start charging f-smash -> Popo sh f-air -> f-smash launches the opponent into f-air, which ground them again -> repeat until they DI/tech?

Can also start it from a missed tech after b-throw/d-throw.

I also don't feel comfortable going for the RPS OoS stuff because I tend to lose Nana for guessing wrong.

As far as CCing her goes, It's a very common piece of advice that I've always had alot of trouble using, CCing her fair just gives her free damage and as far as my experience goes she can often use her aerial mobility to weave out of punish range when you try to CC her bair, her tilts reach too far for CC to really do much unless she really misspaces them...

You need to get comfortable with your shield game. It is RPS but it's skewed in your favor, because if you read her correctly you can land a grab, which against Sheik is a guaranteed stock (synched or not). She has to make multiple reads just to kill Nana, even after she lands a clean launcher or knocks you off the stage. If you stay near center stage it's even harder for her, because if she goes for a simple f-tilt -> f-air, you can sometimes tech on the platform or grab the ledge before she can follow it up.

You shouldn't try to CC any of her aerials. Shield aerials, dodge aerials, or just get under her and up air/up smash. She has a high shorthop and the only other way she can hit you with aerials involves running off/dropping through platforms (which also gives you opportunities to up air).

Almost all of her ground moves are CCable though, so you can try to CC instead of shield when you're in awkward ground situations. If you CC a tilt, you can dash grab even if she's out of standing ground range. Same for down smash (as long as it just hits you once and pushes you away).

 

[Samwisely]

So as far as I can tell, it seems that Evo has been a rough tourney for our climbers.

 

[Kyu Puff]

So as far as I can tell, it seems that Evo has been a rough tourney for our climbers.

Rough for Nintendude at least. Chu had a pretty fortunate bracket (all Sheik players besides Ice) and Fly is still in top 32.

 

[OddishGuy]

Rough for Nintendude at least. Chu had a pretty fortunate bracket (all Sheik players besides Ice) and Fly is still in top 32.

If Ice had never switched, that would have been a hilarious bracket.

Looks like Fly will have another match with SW (#Sopo?). SW is looking super smooth though, should be good games. The IC dream lives on

EDIT: NVM, Chu is facing SW, brackets are weird and I can't read.

 

[Kyu Puff]

If Ice had never switched, that would have been a hilarious bracket.

Looks like Fly will have another match with SW (#Sopo?). SW is looking super smooth though, should be good games. The IC dream lives on

EDIT: NVM, Chu is facing SW, brackets are weird and I can't read.

And... Chu beats SW and HugS to make top 8.

 

[Fugibean]

I've never seen such a clutch sopo play.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I feel like I must have known this before, but on any stage besides Dreamland, you can fulljump u-air through the side platform, and then hold down to fall through without landing on it. Unfortunately it doesn't work if you fastfall...

 

[eclipsis17]

Bair also works, but I think the timing is stricter (especially on BF) and often nana stays on the platform as you fall through (lead to desynchs? Or just plain dangerous.... ).
You can also full hop u-air -> double jump bair and hold down to fall through the top platform on any stage with a top platform (Including Dreamland). Although on the smaller stages especially, U-air tends to cover the top platform pretty well.

And you can tap down again as soon as you passing through the platform to fastfall, but by that stage its not particularly useful.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I noticed Nana sometimes landing on the platform with u-air too, I think it might have to do with "the force" slightly changing the trajectory of her jump (same thing that leads to various landing desynchs).

 

[SHIP]

So today a friend showed me that Ice climber's tournament winner (jump from ledge) makes it really easy to edgecancel a move on yoshis. Is this a thing that is known to you guys? And is it really worth using? It seems at the least to be pretty cool.

 

[DerfMidWest]

So today a friend showed me that Ice climber's tournament winner (jump from ledge) makes it really easy to edgecancel a move on yoshis. Is this a thing that is known to you guys? And is it really worth using? It seems at the least to be pretty cool.

I don't think it's that great most of the time, but you can get away with it every once in awhile.

 

[R.I.P.]

Chu has inspired me to actually try practicing instead of just down smashing and wobbling

Questions:
1. What do I do to counter Falcons who stomp five times per second? I was totally wrecked by one recently. I feel like none of my moves would come out quick enough to stop it.
2. Ledge guarding: I occasionally kill a Fox with a well timed forward smash, but I feel like it's too slow to do all the time. What should I use instead? I saw people using blizzard into forward smash and forward tilt. What is faster? And how do I do the dair from ledge? Do I drop and down air? Or am I supposed to jump and down air?

Edit: Another thing that I can't seem to do is charge a forward smash while wobbling. How do you do it? Sometimes I'll try it by going from tapping A in wobbling to randomly hold it down, but the sequence of events is usually someone charges the smash but the other character holding the opponent just lets go before it comes out. How does Fly hold them in a grab for so long while it charges? And when do I start charging? After popo headbutt or what?