Social General Ice Climber Chat

[OddishGuy]

sorry if my post didn't make it clear, but popo can shield to cover the straight on stage angle, and as for nana getting hit if they go for the ledge, i'm somehow skeptical, that upair looks like it would almost guaranteed cover the up-b to the ledge, note that this is only meant to apply for up-bs above the ledge.

edit: nana can fastfall the upair if you do the upair timing different, it appears to still cover the ledge, but also gets nana out there faster and allows for the upair to cover more options.

double edit: my idea for this edgegaurd was inspired by one fly did in the genesis 2 crew battle.

Hmmm, I misread and didn't see you were covering onstage+to platform with Popo.

I like this a lot more then. This is very similar to the Nana edge-hog edgeguard. The timing is a bit different, but if you get the right call out then the space animal dies if they go to ledge.

I'll have to look up the crew battle to see the idea in action =o

 

[Smasher89]

That edgeguard seems kinda unsafe though, i think Nana is likely to trade, and im not sure if she can recover if that happens.

 

[Smog]

If you are shielding and fox drill shines, can you grab fox after the shine connects with your shield, or can he easily escape if he does it in the correct ammount of frames?

 

[bomono3]

If you are shielding and fox drill shines, can you grab fox after the shine connects with your shield, or can he easily escape if he does it in the correct ammount of frames?

i think you have 1 frame to grab after the drill, but not during the shine due to nair and the alike.

 

[xKobayashi]

@R.I.P. The best thing to do out of wobbling is dsmash imo (some people say you can smash di --> tech the dsmash but I have never seen this happen). What you want to do is time the dmash (easiest using the c stick) WHILE popo is headbutting, but after nana is done f-tilting. This will allow nana to dsmash while popo is unable to d-throw because he is still in the pummel animation. I would never charge a move out of wobbling, just wobble them to a higher percentage so it isn't necessary

 

[Kyu Puff]

i think you have 1 frame to grab after the drill, but not during the shine due to nair and the alike.

D-air has variable frame disadvantage, from -6 to -8. So two thirds of the time you can shield grab before the shine if you're frame perfect, but one third of the time he can shine before that's possible.

After the shine he'll usually jump out of the way or throw out another aerial before you're able to grab. Your best bet is wavedashing/rolling after he jumps or waiting to see what he does after (if he hits your shield with an early aerial you might be able to shield grab).

This is what it looks like if you're both frame perfect:

 

[Kyu Puff]

@R.I.P. The best thing to do out of wobbling is dsmash imo (some people say you can smash di --> tech the dsmash but I have never seen this happen). What you want to do is time the dmash (easiest using the c stick) WHILE popo is headbutting, but after nana is done f-tilting. This will allow nana to dsmash while popo is unable to d-throw because he is still in the pummel animation. I would never charge a move out of wobbling, just wobble them to a higher percentage so it isn't necessary

The way I do it is count "1-2-1-2" as I tap the A button. "1" and "2" correspond to Popo's headbutting animation and Nana's tilting animation respectively. On "1" you can input a move for Nana, and on "2" you can input a throw for Popo.

On heavier characters sometimes it's easier to kill with d-throw u-smash because you don't have to worry about walls (on Pokemon Stadium) or d-smash being stale, and it guarantees the kill at a lower percent. I wouldn't recommend it for any character lighter than Marth/Peach because the d-throw animation is faster for light characters, which doesn't give you as much time to execute the smash. But it's situationally useful and cool to be able to vary your grab finishers.

Kobayashi is right though, until it's 100% consistent you should just get them to a high enough percent where Nana's uncharged d-smash would kill, as that's the easiest thing to execute.

 

[Smog]

@ Fly_Amanita
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bq2tLaOnnA
At 1:43 you use ice block to try to get falcon, and you do it again about 10 seconds later. Are you trying to reset him for hand-offs on the platform? Or is there something useful against falcon with ice blocks.

Also at 3:13 it looks like you did up-b oos to nana blizzard but she didn't jump. Was it because you spotdodged beforehand and she was already desynced?

 

[Kyu Puff]

@ Fly_Amanita
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bq2tLaOnnA
At 1:43 you use ice block to try to get falcon, and you do it again about 10 seconds later. Are you trying to reset him for hand-offs on the platform? Or is there something useful against falcon with ice blocks.

I believe he was trying to use the "Ice Block lift," as Wobbles calls it in this video, where you use Ice Block to land on the platform and simultaneously pop the opponent up for another hit. It's an alternative to wavelanding onto the platform when you might otherwise be too slow to cover tech in place/get up attack (the so-called "dizzkid killer"). It works well against Falcon because his combination of weight and falling speed make it more likely to combo into grab.

Edit: That was an awesome match by the way.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yeah, the hammer hitbox of ice block can sometimes combo into really substantial punishes, e.g. grabs. It's generally a really good way of boarding platforms. Nana didn't jump when I did belay since she was doing a spot dodge then.

 

[Smog]

Alright thanks.

 

[OddishGuy]

So I did some testing on edge-guarding Fox/Falco. I say some testing because It's impossible to figure this out completely, but I tried for a long while ;_;

Frame perfect F-smash:
Can intercept side-B to ledge
Can intercept side-B onstage
Can intercept Up-B to ledge
Can intercept Up-B onstage
Cannot hit Up-B up to platform

Blizzard:
Cannot intercept side-B to ledge
Can intercept side-B onstage (weak to SDI, ledge grab, and Airdodge stuff)
Can sometimes intercept Up-B to ledge (blizzard hitboxes are randy, seems like a 25% chance)
Can intercept Up-B onstage (weak to SDI, ledge grab, and Airdodge stuff)
Cannot hit Up-B up to platform

Blizzard's hitboxes being random is really annoying TBH, but Nana blizzard is still a great edgeguard. You can Nana blizzard/Popo edgehog, and mix up whether you regular get up/roll or ledge-dash jump to plat to read opponent's recovery to ledge/to platform. Blizzard also lasts long enough to cover side-B and Up-B onstage if timed correctly.
Blizzard is weak to Side-B to ledge even without random hitboxes, so having Popo ledge grab is kind of necessary anyway. However, if blizzard wasn't random you could at least cover every Up-B option, which would have been swell =/

The weird Nana desynced Upair edgeguard seems to actually work but it's frame perfect timing. The benefit of this edge-guard is that Popo is onstage, so you can cover the platform more easily.

Again, I think Nana edge-hog is a bit better/easier here in that regard. After looking at all the rest of this, Nana edgehog might be the best edgeguard. Having Popo cover onstage with a tilt, Bair, or grab, and to platform with a Bair, iceblock, or waveland grab/D-smash.

Now theoretically, full coverage could be achieved by Nana charging an F-smash and having Popo react to an up to platform recovery. However this is a frame perfect F-smash execution with Nana's 6 frame lag timing, super duper hard.

 

[tauKhan]

Frame perfect F-smash:
Can intercept side-B to ledge

I'm skeptical about that. Are you sure fsmash really can reach that low? The ledgegrab box on the side b
is insanely good:

 

[SHIP]

Anyone got any tips for playing dual ice climbers in doubles? I'm gonna be doing that tomorrow and the last time I did that it didn't go well.

 

[OddishGuy]

I'm skeptical about that. Are you sure fsmash really can reach that low? The ledgegrab box on the side b
is insanely good:

I should retest this. Basically I had it so that if the Fox fell for 1 more frame the Side-B would miss the edge. But with FFing and such you can likely make the side-B even lower. I had it so that it was easy to test, but not the most thorough in retrospect. It will likely be on of those "sometimes works" edgeguards, but unlike Firefox angles, the opponent won't have much control over whether they get hit or not.

 

[tauKhan]

Fox and falco can also shine stall to make more side b heights available, though that makes it easy to react to unless they have dj left.

Also I like it when ic's try to fsmash me from upb below stage, since that's a free tech jump into sideb recovery even if they manage to hit me.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Run off->rising dair is awesome for covering sideB to the ledge.
Its like a worse version of sheiks nair.

 

[gapw]

I always hear that wavedash -> jab -> grab is a good approach. But it seems as though every time I press Z after pressing A to jab I do the second hit of my jab instead of grabbing. Any advice?

Also, what are some recommended things to practice before I start touching desyncing and advanced stuff like that? I'm somebody who has barely played Ice Climbers but is so far liking what he's seeing and wants to start learning the character.

 

[tauKhan]

I always hear that wavedash -> jab -> grab is a good approach. But it seems as though every time I press Z after pressing A to jab I do the second hit of my jab instead of grabbing. Any advice?

You need to first interrupt the jab with some other interruptable animation. Possible options include walk, shield, crouch, jump. This is because during jab, an a input causes you to do a second jab, and z is basically a+light shield so it does make you jab.

 

[OddishGuy]

With the Fox/Falco Side-B, F-smash can't cover the ledge everytime, still a decent chance of it hitting though.
Fair seems to cover side-B to ledge unless they shorten sweetspot.

Fox and falco can also shine stall to make more side b heights available, though that makes it easy to react to unless they have dj left.

Also I like it when ic's try to fsmash me from upb below stage, since that's a free tech jump into sideb recovery even if they manage to hit me.

Shine stalling doesn't realistically make any more heights available, just mixes up the timing. There's still a chance F-smash would hit.

Walljump tech options, including side B, are easy enough to cover. I wouldn't fret about it too much. Walljump tech airdodge to Yoshi's Story platform seems implausible to cover though.

Run off->rising dair is awesome for covering sideB to the ledge.
Its like a worse version of sheiks nair.

Why not run off rising Nair? =o

 

[Kyu Puff]

Shine stalling doesn't realistically make any more heights available, just mixes up the timing. There's still a chance F-smash would hit

Depends how you tested it... There might be a frame where you can wait one frame longer and fail to grab the ledge, but if you were moving more slowly it would have taken multiple frames.

Also random thought of the day: Triangle jumping is probably a viable way to get around Marth's d-tilt.

 

[OddishGuy]

Depends how you tested it... There might be a frame where you can wait one frame longer and fail to grab the ledge, but if you were moving more slowly it would have taken multiple frames.

Also random thought of the day: Triangle jumping is probably a viable way to get around Marth's d-tilt.

I say realistically it doesn't add any more heights, because the heights you add or subtract by shine stalling or FFing are basically random since we're human.

The Marth should be able to double D-tilt to cover that =[

 

[Kyu Puff]

The Marth should be able to double D-tilt to cover that =[

The situation I'm thinking about is where you jump towards him in anticipation of d-tilt. Often I'd try to beat it with f-air (which comes out on frame 19); the problem is that if he chooses just about any other option (f-air, f-smash, u-tilt, side+B, dash back), he wins the encounter. Since his d-tilt only lasts for 20 frames, the sh f-air also needs to be a hard read.

Now imagine instead you airdodge after being airborne for a few frames. Popo becomes invulnerable 4 frames after the input (Nana 10 frames), and then stays invulnerable until he hits the ground, after which I believe there are 10 frames of lag. If you happened to time it perfectly (so that Popo lands the frame after Marth's hitbox goes away), Marth and ICs would be able to act on the same frame.

If you were <7 frames late, you could shield a second d-tilt attempt. If you were more than 7 frames late, sourspotted d-tilt is likely still punishable with ASDI down. If you airdodge into his range I feel most Marths would grab or dd grab.

You could also airdodge just outside of his grab range, where d-tilt is still punishable via shield grab.

The other nice thing is that if he chooses another option (which conveniently all come out within a few frames of each other), you can still maneuver safely out of the air and put yourself in a position that makes him uncomfortable.

Haven't tried this in game yet, so it could turn out that I'm completely wrong. In my head though it seems like it should work.

 

[OddishGuy]

The situation I'm thinking about is where you jump towards him in anticipation of d-tilt. Often I'd try to beat it with f-air (which comes out on frame 19); the problem is that if he chooses just about any other option (f-air, f-smash, u-tilt, side+B, dash back), he wins the encounter. Since his d-tilt only lasts for 20 frames, the sh f-air also needs to be a hard read.

Now imagine instead you airdodge after being airborne for a few frames. Popo becomes invulnerable 4 frames after the input (Nana 10 frames), and then stays invulnerable until he hits the ground, after which I believe there are 10 frames of lag. If you happened to time it perfectly (so that Popo lands the frame after Marth's hitbox goes away), Marth and ICs would be able to act on the same frame.

If you were <7 frames late, you could shield a second d-tilt attempt. If you were more than 7 frames late, sourspotted d-tilt is likely still punishable with ASDI down. If you airdodge into his range I feel most Marths would grab or dd grab.

You could also airdodge just outside of his grab range, where d-tilt is still punishable via shield grab.

The other nice thing is that if he chooses another option (which conveniently all come out within a few frames of each other), you can still maneuver safely out of the air and put yourself in a position that makes him uncomfortable.

Haven't tried this in game yet, so it could turn out that I'm completely wrong. In my head though it seems like it should work.

It works but you have to be near frame perfect to avoid the double D-tilt with both climbers.

WD spot dodge could be a more lenient solution to dodging the D-tilt, but obviously this can't be done from the air and you need more space to execute it.

 

[tauKhan]

I say realistically it doesn't add any more heights, because the heights you add or subtract by shine stalling or FFing are basically random since we're human.

At least I find it easier to go under moves with side b after shining first. You move so much slower that it's both easier to time, and you get more frames at ledgegrab heights.

 

[gapw]

I've heard that it's a bad idea to try to get right into the complex Ice Climber's techniques when beginning with the character- desyncing, mainly. What should I first be practicing with the Ice Climber's if I'm very inexperienced with them?

 

[Kyu Puff]

It works but you have to be near frame perfect to avoid the double D-tilt with both climbers.

WD spot dodge could be a more lenient solution to dodging the D-tilt, but obviously this can't be done from the air and you need more space to execute it.

You don't have to be frame perfect to beat the second d-tilt. You have a ~7 frame window to recover in time to shield, followed by a 10 frame window where you'd be able to ASDI down and grab. If you're any slower than that, the d-tilt hitbox would just miss you.

Though I guess you could do the same type of thing with WD out of shield. If you're frame perfect you can shield before a second d-tilt would hit, but in practice that's a lot harder for you than it is for the Marth, and your shield is already worn down from the first d-tilt. However, if you can manage to get close to him (more lenient window) and you're at low percent, ASDI down to grab would probably work here as well.

Either option loses to grab, but his grab isn't great in this match-up. If you try to ASDI down with c-stick and he grabs instead of d-tilt, I believe whichever Ice Climber he misses would hit him with d-smash before he could throw.

I don't think spotdodge would help because even if you timed it perfectly, Marth would have the frame advantage afterwards.

 

[OddishGuy]

You don't have to be frame perfect to beat the second d-tilt. You have a ~7 frame window to recover in time to shield, followed by a 10 frame window where you'd be able to ASDI down and grab. If you're any slower than that, the d-tilt hitbox would just miss you.

Though I guess you could do the same type of thing with WD out of shield. If you're frame perfect you can shield before a second d-tilt would hit, but in practice that's a lot harder for you than it is for the Marth, and your shield is already worn down from the first d-tilt. However, if you can manage to get close to him (more lenient window) and you're at low percent, ASDI down to grab would probably work here as well.

Either option loses to grab, but his grab isn't great in this match-up. If you try to ASDI down with c-stick and he grabs instead of d-tilt, I believe whichever Ice Climber he misses would hit him with d-smash before he could throw.

I don't think spotdodge would help because even if you timed it perfectly, Marth would have the frame advantage afterwards.

If you're trying to ASDI down why not just WD approach to CC to stuff? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean there.

I'm not worried about the grab as much as a second D-tilt.

Every option here (except jab) loses to Dash away though, which is likely what the Marth will opt for in this type of pressure situation. Jump fade away Fair is as safe as usual.

The Spot dodge approach has 1 more frame of leniency than the triangle jump. So it has more of an advantage if done perfectly.

 

[Vanitas]

OddishGuy or anyone able to produce gfycats, would you be able to show a gfycat of the coverage of a 3D Usmash?(usually when you wavedash and then input turn around and then usmash so that both climbers do usmash just in different directions). This is just out of curiosity haha.

Also random question but when does downsmash hit in front of you? I know behind is on frame 6.

 

[941]

I believe D-smash's front hitbox is active on frames 9, 10, and 11.

 

[OddishGuy]

OddishGuy or anyone able to produce gfycats, would you be able to show a gfycat of the coverage of a 3D Usmash?(usually when you wavedash and then input turn around and then usmash so that both climbers do usmash just in different directions). This is just out of curiosity haha.

Also random question but when does downsmash hit in front of you? I know behind is on frame 6.

I think these gifs are what you are asking for. If I misinterpreted your request LMK and I'll whip up what you actually wanted =P

Lunks if gfy doesn't load
Upsmash gfy (No hitbox)
http://gfycat.com/ExcellentHighlevelHarpseal
Hitbox/character model mix
http://gfycat.com/IgnorantHauntingIbis
Hitbox mode
http://gfycat.com/MagnificentZanyAstrangiacoral

D-smash covers the front during frames 9, 10, and 11. Frame 9 does not reach very far though.

Edited to add the hitbox overlayed gfy and get rid of the other embedded gfys to reduce the clutter that I'm not adding by talking in this edit.

 

[Kyu Puff]

If you're trying to ASDI down why not just WD approach to CC to stuff? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean there.

I'm not worried about the grab as much as a second D-tilt.

Every option here (except jab) loses to Dash away though, which is likely what the Marth will opt for in this type of pressure situation. Jump fade away Fair is as safe as usual.

The Spot dodge approach has 1 more frame of leniency than the triangle jump. So it has more of an advantage if done perfectly.

The situation I'm thinking about involves Marth walling you out with f-air/d-tilt to limit your forward movement. It most frequently and problematically happens when your back is to the ledge.

If he's in control of center stage, wavedashing straight at him will get tipper d-tilted/f-aired/f-smashed ~90% of the time. I just made that number up, but the point is that he can react to your forward movement relatively easily, and it's difficult to bait and punish a move when you have little to no space to work with. In neutral you have the liberty to vary your movement, camp with projectiles, or approach (and retreat if the approach didn't pan out). Near the ledge, if you get hit or cornered, Nana usually winds up dead.

In order to WD around his d-tilt, you would need to start the WD from just outside his range, right as the hitbox for his d-tilt comes out. In this particular mini-game, I don't see that as very likely, because he has no reason to d-tilt unless you're already moving towards him/about to enter his range. The timing is also pretty tight because if you're a frame early you get tippered by d-tilt and sent sliding off the stage. Not to mention, if he opts for any other move, you're probably still getting hit.

I don't think spotdodging would help, because if you were close enough to spotdodge the d-tilt you could have just grabbed him, and it gives you at best a +1 frame advantage, with the average case being much worse than that.

Approaching with shield is usually pretty good. You can get closer to center stage, save yourself from being hit, and potentially grab or roll past him if his spacing is bad. The downside is that your shield gets worn down pretty quickly, and if he shieldpokes or clips Nana during a roll, she might die. Side note: You can shieldgrab his d-tilt from somewhere around 2/3rds the length of his sword because his hitbox extends forward.

The reason I see airdodging as an interesting option is because it can get you past any move, not just d-tilt, and puts you in grab range. It doesn't require as much luck and potentially has a higher payout than shorthop f-air. ASDI down is pretty good against Marth in general because most of his moves have low knockback and horizontal trajectory if he misses the sweetspot, and staying on the ground is a lot safer than transitioning into the air.

It's true that if he's patient he can just dash away and react with spaced f-airs, but at least then you've gained a bit of stage control. My intuition is that it's still worth trying out and that the worst possible outcome would be Marth getting some kind of f-throw tipper combo.

 

[Fugibean]

Thanks Kyu Puff. I'm going to give this a try in game in a day or two. Maybe if a few people (who have a Marth to practice against) could all try this out we could see how successful everyone was with it. I'm really motivated to figure out how to beat d-tilt because I'm sick of losing to my friend who literally only d-tilts and retreating fairs. I will try anything if anyone has any other ideas.

I'm really starting to think that Marth is ICs worst matchup. Although that might be because the peach I play against kinda blows.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Why not run off rising Nair? =o

Nair is better if it connects, but there are holes in it and the angle can be weird as well. I like nair though. Dair is also active on frame 3.
If you dip a little lower, rising uair can be pretty nice too. If you get the weak hit it puts spacies in a really bad spot, but it's a little riskier to go for this one since you need to dip lower to get the uair out, which can put you in a worse position.
I usually uair upBs to the ledge rather than sideB, but you could do it to sideB as well.

 

[OddishGuy]

Thanks Kyu Puff. I'm going to give this a try in game in a day or two. Maybe if a few people (who have a Marth to practice against) could all try this out we could see how successful everyone was with it. I'm really motivated to figure out how to beat d-tilt because I'm sick of losing to my friend who literally only d-tilts and retreating fairs. I will try anything if anyone has any other ideas.

I'm really starting to think that Marth is ICs worst matchup. Although that might be because the peach I play against kinda blows.

If we're talking ANY ideas, I have one that I tried for a bit but couldn't consistently pull off.

This strategy becomes better if you wobble with D-tilt due to stale moves.

You can clang with Marth's D-tilt with a D-tilt of your own. Due to Marth's doing more damage, you recover from the clang faster (2-3 frames). This could allow you to go for a dash to JC grab. If Nana's D-tilt clanks with Marth's instead of Popo's then the grab is impossible to land.

If I recall correctly, it's also possible to clank with D-tilt by using jabs. This would give a 4 frame advantage, so the grab would be even easier to land.

 

[xKobayashi]

@ OddishGuy Would you still get the frame advantage from clanging even if marth IASA cancels the dtilt? Or does clanging make him unable to cancel it?

 

[OddishGuy]

@ OddishGuy Would you still get the frame advantage from clanging even if marth IASA cancels the dtilt? Or does clanging make him unable to cancel it?

Clanging puts players in unavoidable rebound lag.

https://youtu.be/MOlQv-9S1zE?t=8m4s

 

[Smasher89]

Marth cant float and does have landlag, be happy the peach you play dont have enough exp in the matchup, i suggest not playing ICs in friendlies against peach is a good thing that might earn you some money some day.
Hadn't really thought about the optio with rising dair, but with Popo in looking forward, i guess that might set up for some nice iceblock, not sure though but it seems likely.

Grats to Wobbles for winning a tournament with axe and m2k in it.

 

[DerfMidWest]

why would marth want to go in the air against ICs?

 

[Fugibean]

why would marth want to go in the air against ICs?

Retreating fair mostly right? But that has next to zero end lag and from what I know unpublishable if exucuted well.