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Social General Ice Climber Chat

bomono3

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
41
Location
Canyon lake New Braunfels
The point is that you don't need to be right next to Marth to clank. You can pretty safely throw this out in neutral. If you're close enough to the Marth that they can shield the D-tilt you're doing it wrong =/

TBH though I think this entire MU is read based. Besides blizzard, ICs don't have a lot that beats multiple Marth options, so you have to commit to something before the Marth, while he plays the reactionary role.
the thing is if the dtilt misses its not safe whatsoever, there is a 10 frame advantage marth gets to do whatever he wants, he can dash forward and grab you easily oout of a missed dtilt, you have to remember that the climbers fastest option is 4 frames so marth in reality has a 14 frame punish window and potentially a 28 frame reaction window to see the dtilt (assumign it will miss) and then prepare a punish on it being missed. its straight up unsafe even if you miss. while the matchup is reactionary i'm almost certain that dtilt is not a good way to go about it.

the way i view it you dont have to challenge marth as much, you have to apply pressure that gets marth in a bad positioning, trying to challenge dtilt with anything that's not a desynched dtilt with nana or blizzard/ice block is just dangerous.

give me 1 reason why ice climbers have to play on the offensive in the matchup, they have all the tools they need to force marth to approach them. (this is not meant to sound arrogant, i just dont know how to ask this question in a better way)

i dont like the idea of "safe" moves that can be punished, they seem like they just take advantage of a players inability at a lower level to react to the initial animation rather than the hit.

Edit: here have a weird desynch i found that happens if you have the analog stick down to 84, not sure if this has been posted yet.

http://gfycat.com/YawningBossyArchaeopteryx

probably happens due to the fact that there is a tiny little notch on the input maps where b does nothing
 
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OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
Location
Colorado Springs
I originally just edited my post, but since Bomono has posted this isn't double posting >:D

So I finally got my wii back and was able to look at some stuff.
Sopo can clang with Marth's D-tilt with Jab as I said ealier. This gives about a 5 frame advantage. This means you can likely go for a dash grab. Unless the Marth dashes away, you should get it. The Marth can Up-B, Jab, or spot dodge and avoid the grab, but the chances of this are slim because 1: the Marth should not be anticipating this, and 2: it's way harder for the Marth to near frame perfect Up-B or jab than it is for us to start a dash/run.

I think it's also unlikely for a Marth to react to clang and dash away or spot dodge just for the fact that switching from offensive advantage mode to 'must escape death' mode can be hard to do quickly. IDK though, I'm not good with player psych and all that jazz.
 

OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
Location
Colorado Springs
the thing is if the dtilt misses its not safe whatsoever, there is a 10 frame advantage marth gets to do whatever he wants, he can dash forward and grab you easily oout of a missed dtilt, you have to remember that the climbers fastest option is 4 frames so marth in reality has a 14 frame punish window and potentially a 28 frame reaction window to see the dtilt (assumign it will miss) and then prepare a punish on it being missed. its straight up unsafe even if you miss. while the matchup is reactionary i'm almost certain that dtilt is not a good way to go about it.

the way i view it you dont have to challenge marth as much, you have to apply pressure that gets marth in a bad positioning, trying to challenge dtilt with anything that's not a desynched dtilt with nana or blizzard/ice block is just dangerous.

give me 1 reason why ice climbers have to play on the offensive in the matchup, they have all the tools they need to force marth to approach them. (this is not meant to sound arrogant, i just dont know how to ask this question in a better way)

i dont like the idea of "safe" moves that can be punished, they seem like they just take advantage of a players inability at a lower level to react to the initial animation rather than the hit.

Edit: here have a weird desynch i found that happens if you have the analog stick down to 84, not sure if this has been posted yet.

http://gfycat.com/YawningBossyArchaeopteryx

probably happens due to the fact that there is a tiny little notch on the input maps where b does nothing
I'm not saying you have to approach, I'm saying you have to act first, even if it's just throwing out an iceblock. The main reason you have to go in is that Marth has a better DD, so he's in a better position to wait around in neutral. ICs can't just stay still in neutral, their DD desyncs, and WDDing isn't that spectacular either.

The Marth has a 12 frame window to punish the whiffed D-tilt after the hitbox becomes inactive. They could likely do a cycle of DD and punish. The situation I'm mostly thinking of is under a side platform, or just out of stage control either way, since Marths like to D-tilt to push an advantage when the opponent is near ledge.

There's technically no such thing as a safe move, but there are relatively safe moves, or pokes, that can be thrown out in neutral. I think that D-tilt works in that regard, but I still like the jab a bit more.
D-tilt is relatively safe against a close, DDing Marth in comparison to a spot dodge desync.

... I'm not the best with explanations but I hope that makes sense.

Also that desync is sick! I've tried it before but could never get it consistent.
 
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bomono3

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
41
Location
Canyon lake New Braunfels
I originally just edited my post, but since Bomono has posted this isn't double posting >:D

So I finally got my wii back and was able to look at some stuff.
Sopo can clang with Marth's D-tilt with Jab as I said ealier. This gives about a 5 frame advantage. This means you can likely go for a dash grab. Unless the Marth dashes away, you should get it. The Marth can Up-B, Jab, or spot dodge and avoid the grab, but the chances of this are slim because 1: the Marth should not be anticipating this, and 2: it's way harder for the Marth to near frame perfect Up-B or jab than it is for us to start a dash/run.

I think it's also unlikely for a Marth to react to clang and dash away or spot dodge just for the fact that switching from offensive advantage mode to 'must escape death' mode can be hard to do quickly. IDK though, I'm not good with player psych and all that jazz.
oh i know the clang is useful, i was refering to what happens when you miss because the marth begins mixing up their dtilt timing. at that point they get a free hit in on you and you gain very little. if i was in the marth's position i would simply mix up the timings at which i dtilt, and every time i see a dtilt animation start (reaction time of 15 frames) i would tell myself to dash forward in that situation and grab. even if it clanks my best option if i was the marth would to anticipate it missing due to the varying timings on my downtilt. while ICs gets a massive punish out of it if the marth quickly backthrows after grab he is granted invincibility so the nana grab misses and from there its easy to combo the nana into death. if the dtilt clangs the ICs get a wobble, if the dtilt misses then marth gets a free kill on nana. even more than that if the mart hsees you respond to his dtilt with dtilt he might just run up and go for a to nof other options that would beat dtilt.
 

bomono3

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
41
Location
Canyon lake New Braunfels
I'm not saying you have to approach, I'm saying you have to act first, even if it's just throwing out an iceblock. The main reason you have to go in is that Marth has a better DD, so he's in a better position to wait around in neutral. ICs can't just stay still in neutral, their DD desyncs, and WDDing isn't that spectacular either.

The Marth has a 12 frame window to punish the whiffed D-tilt after the hitbox becomes inactive. They could likely do a cycle of DD and punish, but the situation I'm mostly thinking of is under a side platform, or just out of stage control either way.

There's technically no such thing as a safe move, but there are relatively safe moves, or pokes, that can be thrown out in neutral. I think that D-tilt works in that regard, but I still like the jab a bit more.
D-tilt is relatively safe against a close, DDing Marth in comparison to a spot dodge desync.

... I'm not the best with explanations but I hope that makes sense.

Also that desync is sick! I've tried it before but could never get it consistent.
i understand what you are saying, and the spotdodge is not really meant to be done in neutral vs marth, perhaps because ftilt clanks with marths dtilt you could do a guard ftilt desynch and if it misses do a ice block and if it clanks run in and grab, a bit tighter spacing but i could see it working.

regarding the dashdance, while a bit risky a nanapult can mess up marths spacing significantly, and if you believe they will react and punish to it you can still go in and punish the attack on nana with popo (in most situations)

(did we just both doublepost)
 
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OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
Location
Colorado Springs
i understand what you are saying, and the spotdodge is not really meant to be done in neutral vs marth, perhaps because ftilt clanks with marths dtilt you could do a guard ftilt desynch and if it misses do a ice block and if it clanks run in and grab, a bit tighter spacing but i could see it working.

regarding the dashdance, while a bit risky a nanapult can mess up marths spacing significantly, and if you believe they will react and punish to it you can still go in and punish the attack on nana with popo (in most situations)

(did we just both doublepost)
I feel like most desyncs at close range get stuffed by Fair/Dtilt every time you go for a desync since you have to stay in place to get setup. Guard desync would probably be the best here though, but in this situation the Marth is mostly just waiting for a shield or and attack that they can pressure or stuff, so it's scary.

Marth OP

(did we just both doublepost)
shhhh, just let it happen >.>
We'll blame SmashBoards lag.
 

Fugibean

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2015
Messages
35
Yeah I guess we should never really have the burden of approaching against Marth as long as we're winning. But if we start losing it becomes a problem. I beleive that the ftilt gaurd desyncing would be super good because you could mix up whether you are actually trying to clank or just blizzard. I haven't tried it out yet tho.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
Edit: here have a weird desynch i found that happens if you have the analog stick down to 84, not sure if this has been posted yet.

http://gfycat.com/YawningBossyArchaeopteryx

probably happens due to the fact that there is a tiny little notch on the input maps where b does nothing
Most of the gifs you've posted so far have been discussed before, but this one is new to me and pretty cool. It looks like another variation of the sensitivity desynch, taking advantage (like you said) of the B-move deadzone. The trend among sensitivity desynchs seems to be that Nana requires slightly greater displacement of the control stick/c-stick to trigger an action, meaning that Popo can jump alone, dash alone, smash alone, or in this case, not being able to input B moves alone. It's probably too difficult to perform consistently without some sort of modified controller, but it's cool to know about nonetheless.
 

bomono3

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
41
Location
Canyon lake New Braunfels
Most of the gifs you've posted so far have been discussed before.
dude, i don't read smashboards, like ever. i'm only here to boost my ego by posting bunch of gifs. nobody has time to read all the years of assorted data you have to go through in these forums because nobody is creating a comprehensive resource. that's what my goal is because dealing with a lack of visual guides is annoying.

i still like my amsah tech trap tho.
 

OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
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Colorado Springs
dude, i don't read smashboards, like ever. i'm only here to boost my ego by posting bunch of gifs. nobody has time to read all the years of assorted data you have to go through in these forums because nobody is creating a comprehensive resource. that's what my goal is because dealing with a lack of visual guides is annoying.

i still like my amsah tech trap tho.
TBH the ICs board needs a new thread for desyncs IMO. The old one doesn't have everything, and some of the stuff it has is misinformed. Also, it has no visuals or frame data.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
TBH the ICs board needs a new thread for desyncs IMO. The old one doesn't have everything, and some of the stuff it has is misinformed. Also, it has no visuals or frame data.
Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that. There wasn't much of a reason to create separate threads in the past because the IC forums only had a few active members and they all posted here. As a result everything is pretty terribly organized and the majority of useful information is buried in this thread. Whenever I need to find something, I just do a keyword search (and I usually have some vague recollection of who posted it/when it was posted), but I guess that can't be expected of everybody.
 
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Fugibean

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2015
Messages
35
Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that. There wasn't much of a reason to create separate threads in the past because the IC forums only had a few active members and they all posted here. As a result everything is pretty terribly organized and the majority of useful information is buried in this thread. Whenever I need to find something, I just do a keyword search (and I usually have some vague recollection of who posted it/when it was posted), but I guess that can't be expected of everybody.
Maybe some of us can go through this entire thread find the best information posted it on post it on a google doc then create a Kadona type ICs guide. Like some one can get pages 1-50, 51-100,etc. Then we can organize it.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
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Location
Massachusetts
Maybe some of us can go through this entire thread find the best information posted it on post it on a google doc then create a Kadona type ICs guide. Like some one can get pages 1-50, 51-100,etc. Then we can organize it.
Google doc is a great idea so that multiple people can add information instead of just the thread creator.
 

Fugibean

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2015
Messages
35
Google doc is a great idea so that multiple people can add information instead of just the thread creator.
We should maybe like assign sections of the thread ( I know it sounds like school). Maybe focus on the later stuff because the earliest stuff might be a little outdated. I think the stuff we should be looking for is specific stuff because we already have Fly's general Ice Climbers guide. I'd be willing to organize the stuff into matchups/ whatever makes sense if people just want to start dumping info into a google docs. Also once we have a start on the info we should make sure we have gifs/pictures of the situation to make it super clean.

My general plan would be this.
1. Begin to sort through the thread for important/interesting/specific.
2. Add it the information (the exact post) to a google docs until we have like 10 pages or so.
3. Clean that 10 pages by make sure there is frame data/pictures/gifs and make it look good so its easy to follow. (Like Kadano's Marth Guide)
4. Then start the process over again.

By keeping the info organized as we go along we won't end up with a doc full of info that is hard to sort through (like this thread lol). I'm pretty excited about this idea. This could be the start of an ice climber's style 20GX movement, The Ice Age. Lol

EDIT: instead of just posting the first post we should probably post any relevant followup posts/ discussions
 
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OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
Location
Colorado Springs
Hey guys, a little off topic from the whole google doc thing, but let's flashback to edge-guarding spacies. I'm assuming a few people already know the information I'm presenting, but the google doc isn't created yet, so I couldn't find it =P

So way back, I said that Nana edgehog to Popo edge guard seemed like the best way to cover the three firefox/bird angle scenario. However I was disgruntled at how slow getting Nana to the edge is. Up-B desync to airdodge just seemed abysmal.

So I did some testing today. A well spaced squall hammer seemed decently fast and may even intercept a Side-B onstage. Up-B desync to Bair was faster than the airdodge and hitboxes are always appreciated.

But then I screwed up a WD back. That's right, I did the scrub, I held shield while WDing and tumbled offstage. I grabbed the ledge, Popo let go of ledge, Nana grabbed the ledge, then I had to.... wait... Nana grabbed ledge?

That's right folks, if you tumble offstage Nana has to grab the ledge because she can't jump. With a synced WD off in shield you have a 5 frame window to let go of the ledge to give Nana the ledge, with a Ramen Noodle you have a 12 frame window since Nana does not listen to your FF command.

This could theoretically cover everything for Fox recovery. WD back, if side-B onstage go for a Bair, maybe even a smash/tilt, if side-B to ledge continue on the WD back and ramen noodle with Popo, be ready to save based Nana as she will likely get clipped, if they start Up-B you should give up the ledge for Nana and WD back on. you cover onstage and to platform with Popo.

You can get this out of a desync too if you just want Nana to edgehog without Popo going offstage with her. Easiest way to get this seems to be Roll near ledge, buffered spot dodge (only Popo should spot dodge, this is that odd desync I talked about a while back), WD back in shield. Fair/L-cancel desync facing away from ledge to WD back in shield also works really well, but it's a bit harder to do.
 

Fugibean

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2015
Messages
35
Hey guys I made the google docs. If you guys just post your gmails ill add you to it. Once we get everyone who wants to join we can talk specifically how we want to go about making this.
 

ilysm

sleepy
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Jul 13, 2014
Messages
648
Location
Cleveland, OH/Providence, RI
Hullo all! I'm an ex-Ness main and I decided to pick up Icies a few weeks ago. I've been practicing their handoffs, combos, desyncs, neutral, etc. and had a question. I've seen a couple Icies mains repeatedly regrab the ledge with belay as Popo, launching Nana above their head like a projectile to cover the area above them. I've attempted this by pressing down and then immediately up+b, but I can never get Popo to grab the edge. I've varied my timings to no avail. Is it a matter of timing, or is there an input I'm missing?

Nevermind, I found a thread on it finally. A google doc sounds like an awesome idea.

(also this is my formal introduction to the icies boards so i'm just gonna lurk and learn and occasionally ask questions and stuff)
 
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Smog

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
222
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Pittsburgh, PA
Anyone know how many frames ICs have to grab off a frame perfect DAIR to grab? And if you do can you tell me how you found it? Like did you use 20xx and how did you do it?
 

jaseroque

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 20, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Orlando FL
What's the formula for how fast a masher will get out of the grab at varying percents? Also about how long does it take a masher to get out of the grab at like 0-15%?
 

OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
Location
Colorado Springs
Anyone know how many frames ICs have to grab off a frame perfect DAIR to grab? And if you do can you tell me how you found it? Like did you use 20xx and how did you do it?
I'm assuming you're talking about on shield. Use the formula FLOOR[(dmg + 4.45)/2.235]
Dair does 9 dmg, so 6 frames of shield stun, Nana hits 6 frames later, so assuming you perfectly spaced the Dair you land right after the hit, so Nana does the Dair 6 frames after you land. So Nana will inflict 6 frames of stun after you have landed for 6 frames. L-canceled Dair has 12 frames of lag. So you have +0 advantage, meaning that the grab will take 7 frames and anything coming out, or moving the character away, in 6 frames will beat it.

That's just math stuff. You can also just go frame by frame in 20XX. You can even make the characters change to pretty colors when they're in shieldstun.

If you're not talking about shield-stun, then you have to factor in CCing. You can still use 20XX frame by frame to figure it out, and have different pretty colors. However stun is character dependent, so I;m not going to list all that ish off.

What's the formula for how fast a masher will get out of the grab at varying percents? Also about how long does it take a masher to get out of the grab at like 0-15%?
m2k's website said: said:
Grab Escape Speed Formula (and the factors that affect it)

The formula for escaping a grab (NOT special grabs, like Bowser's Koopa Klaw) is the following. The variables are, as you probably know, "t" = time(in frames) stuck in a grab, "b" = amount of times victim presses buttons to escape quicker, and "d" = damage of victim.

The formula is...

"t" = "1.6d" + 76 - "6b"

At 0%, without any usage of the analog stick or any buttons, it takes exactly 76 frames (1.26666...) to escape a grab. On average, every damage more an opponent receives, the time they're stuck in a grab is increased by 1.6 frames. Since the game doesn't have fractions of a frame, it goes like this for every 5% an opponent receieves(and then the process/pattern continues). +2 frames, +2 frames, +1 frame, + 2 frames, + 1 frame. That's how it works. I also found that every flash when Mew2 grabs you occurs exactly 24 frames apart(and the 1st one starts on the 3rd frame of the grab), which is the exact same speed as Falco's laser when it's shot on the ground rapidly(except for the 1st shot, which starts on frame 23). Also, here is a general list of what affects escaping a grab by how much.

-----Press A, B, L, R, X, Y, or Z - 6 frames is reduced from the time you'd be held in a grab.

-----Press The Analog stick in 1 of the 4 cardinal directions(angles don't count) - 6 frames is reduced from the time you're held in a grab (24 frames is reduced after 1 complete rotation of the analog stick, so 2 and 1/2 rotations reduces the time by 1 second).

The characters that shock you when they're holding you(except Ice Climbers with both of them) with they're grab+A move, which include(in no specific order)...

1) Mewtwo
2) Pichu
3) Pikachu
4) Zelda
5) Ice Climbers(with both of them, by pressing A really really fast)

...stun a grabbed foe for for 5 frames, and every single other character in the game(??? on Giga Bowser, Master/Crazy Hand) stun a foe for only 3 frames. Yes, you can actually increase the time a character is held by pressing A to attack them in a grab. The total time for ever A attack (in a grab) is EXACTLY 26 frames, so that means that you'll be able to shock a foe with Mew2, Pika/Pichu, Zelda and the 2 Ice Climbers about 1 more time in 12 or 13 times than you'd be able to do with another character, which gives those 5 characters an very very very slight advantage over other characters when you hold and attack them.

Here's a little list on the amount of frames a character is held in a grab at each damage percentage(counting by 5's)

---------------0% - 76 (1.2666 sec)
5% - 84
10% - 92
15% - 100
20% - 108
25% - 116
30% - 124
35% - 132
40% - 140
45% - 148
---------------50% - 156 (2.6 sec)
55% - 164
60% - 172
65% - 180
70% - 188
75% - 196
80% - 204
85% - 212
90% - 220
95% - 228
---------------100% - 236 (3.9333 sec)
105% - 244
110% - 252
115% - 260
120% - 268
125% - 276
130% - 284
135% - 292
140% - 300
145% - 308
---------------150% - 316 (5.2666 sec)
155% - 324
160% - 332
165% - 340
170% - 348
175% - 356
180% - 364
185% - 372
190% - 380
195% - 388
---------------200% - 396 (6.6 sec)
205% - 404
210% - 412
215% - 420
220% - 428
225% - 436
230% - 444
235% - 452
240% - 460
245% - 468
---------------250% - 476 (7.9333 sec)
255% - 484
260% - 492
265% - 500
270% - 508
275% - 516
280% - 524
285% - 532
290% - 540
295% - 548
---------------300% - 556 (9.2666 sec)
305% - 564
310% - 572
315% - 580
320% - 588
325% - 596
330% - 604
335% - 612
340% - 620
345% - 628
---------------350% - 636 (10.6 sec)
355% - 644
360% - 652
365% - 660
370% - 668
375% - 676
380% - 684
385% - 692
390% - 700
395% - 708
---------------400% - 716 (11.9333 sec)

also...
0% - normal time
47% - 2X time
95% - 3X time
142% - 4X time
190% - 5X time
237% - 6X time
285% - 7X time
332% - 8X time
380% - 9X time
427% - 10X time
997% - 22X time
Tomber has said in the past that even the best smashers can't react to a grab fast enough to get enough mashing to get out of a wobble at 0-20%.
 
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941

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
448
Do you mean the grounded up-B where Popo doesn't go anywhere? I think Fly was trying to get Nana back to the stage with belay, but it didn't work because Nana was in hitstun and just ended up doing a solo up-B with Popo. I'm not sure why you would want to do it though, it's pretty much useless to do a belay with Popo while your on the stage.
 

SnorlaxLuigi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
8
Do you mean the grounded up-B where Popo doesn't go anywhere? I think Fly was trying to get Nana back to the stage with belay, but it didn't work because Nana was in hitstun and just ended up doing a solo up-B with Popo. I'm not sure why you would want to do it though, it's pretty much useless to do a belay with Popo while your on the stage.
No i'm not talking about a solo up-b, watch the video from 4:11-4:15, Fly goes off stage, up-B's to connect with nana so they gain vertical height but Nana doesn't launch popo up at the end, keeping them closer together and putting popo in a harder spot to punish. Do you see what i mean?
 

FlamingForce

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Messages
390
No i'm not talking about a solo up-b, watch the video from 4:11-4:15, Fly goes off stage, up-B's to connect with nana so they gain vertical height but Nana doesn't launch popo up at the end, keeping them closer together and putting popo in a harder spot to punish. Do you see what i mean?
Thats just cos Nana actually hit someone with upB, she doesn't fly as far when that happens.
 

bomono3

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
41
Location
Canyon lake New Braunfels
This could theoretically cover everything for Fox recovery. WD back, if side-B onstage go for a Bair, maybe even a smash/tilt, if side-B to ledge continue on the WD back and ramen noodle with Popo, be ready to save based Nana as she will likely get clipped, if they start Up-B you should give up the ledge for Nana and WD back on. you cover onstage and to platform with Popo.

You can get this out of a desync too if you just want Nana to edgehog without Popo going offstage with her. Easiest way to get this seems to be Roll near ledge, buffered spot dodge (only Popo should spot dodge, this is that odd desync I talked about a while back), WD back in shield. Fair/L-cancel desync facing away from ledge to WD back in shield also works really well, but it's a bit harder to do.
i like this a lot, it seems like such a simple solution to a hard problem, never even herd of this idea, its probably been mentioned under a codename that i had no idea meant this. took me awhile to figure out that you are suppsoed to get nana to grba the ledge before they even have the option to side-b directly onstage. the only problem i see is that most people cant cover side-b on reaction and will most likely always do the bair to cover that option. making the WD onstage to get the punish on high side-b or up-b difficult.

here is a gif of the drop and nana grab ledge that oddish mentioned. http://gfycat.com/SlowAnyIraniangroundjay

on a unrelated note i have a image that describes why you cant trust the hitbox animations you see in the gifs.

http://imgur.com/a/u2XBI

http://gfycat.com/CircularAcrobaticAdder

i see walk as a underrated movement option, you can ftilt withotu a pivot out of walk and the advantages this has over short WD is that you don't have 14 frames of vulnerability and you can ftilt and stay in place (so when moving forward you don't ram into them) so as a result you gain movement but maintain a better bubble for moves and also don't have those 14 frames of vunerability a opponent can punish on a read.

i have a little gimmicky way of throwing off combos on nana, i have nana charge a smash attack and if she is hut by the opponent while this happens she is sent 20% farther due to the smash charging effect increasing knockback by 20%, this also works if you believe that they will send both popo and nana in the same direction when you charge with popo, as you are sent far enough to punish them while they combo you and nana but you are too far to combos you punish them comboing nana. this works best with downsmash as downsmash starts charging frame 2.

can somebody test to see if light shielding fox's side-b while facing away from fox sends you to the right enough to get a grab on the fox after the side-b. i don't have anyone to test it with right now.
 

moofpi

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Hey ICs, can Nana still hit if Popo's shield gets broken? I'm debating about puppet characters with someone.
 

Smog

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What methods do most people use for AC uairs? Short hopping then holding the control stick up a little and hitting A?
 

OddishGuy

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Hey dudes, let's talk about hitlag desyncs. Hitlag stun is Floor [dmg/3 + 3], most attacks in the ICs movesets do more than 6 dmg, so the hitlag is at least 5 frames, and Nana's hit connects shortly after. However, D-tilt sucks. Like, 5 dmg kind of suck. So the hitlag is only 4 frames. D-tilt sends at such an angle that Nana's hit doesn't connect, she suffers no hitlag, and you get 3 frames to do something with the desync.

D-tilt hitlag desync
(Not accounting for CCing, DI, or SDI)
Character | % distant spacing | % hammerhead spacing | % nearest spacing
Fox | 0% | 30% | 20%
Falco | 0% | 35% | 25%
Sheik | 0% | 0% | 5%
Marth | 0% | 0% | 0%
JigglyPuff | 0% | 15% | 35%
Peach | 0% | 5%* | 5%
Captain Falcon | 0% | 5%* | 20%
Sopo** | 0% | 25% | 105%
Samus | 0% | 0% | 5%
Luigi | 0% | 0% | 0%

*Sometimes it would work at 5%, other times it would go up to 50%. Seemed to be due to whether I was facing the right or left. Z-planes are weird, possibly just inconsistent spacing by me.

**I tried this against both climbers and weird stuff happened, sometimes only Nana would hit, but didn't suffer the hitlag, sometimes both climbers got hit, but then both weren't hit by Nana, Sometimes Popo hit both and activated the desync, sometimes it would only hit Nana, IDK, it's weird.

This desync can work against a CCing opponent but only with the near perfect spacing. I wouldn't recommend it.

Here are some random gfys illustrating what the desync looks like. Right now the main uses I see for it are Solo Nana: aerials, SH iceblock, or blizzard.

SH Iceblock: http://gfycat.com/UntriedQueasyCrustacean

Aerial: http://gfycat.com/AntiqueVainCaudata

Blizzard: http://gfycat.com/WelldocumentedDizzyAmethystsunbird
 
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Kyu Puff

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Sweet. I wouldn't be surprised if the oddities had something to do with Z-plane stuff, since d-tilt probably has some offset and Peach/ICs have weird hurtboxes. The percentages are probably affected somewhat by DI, but the general sense I get from that chart is that it works most of the time against anyone (and especially against floaty/tall characters). Is d-tilt so bad... that it's good?
 

Smasher89

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When your looking into frame data, how much stun does the opponent get after getting grabreleased/airreleased before being able to act?

EDIT: did some experminenting with the up b desynch and desynched taunt to see if i could cancel the taunt with a up b desynch (like a very flashy teleport bait to just get blizzard in their face) and i think I was able to do it once. For some reason I couldnt get it to work more, so maybe I wasnt looking concentrated enough to see what really happened, if the taunt did get canceled and up b too or that i just got a longer range up b cancel to blizzard.

It could be a interesting option to bait overspacing fairs if it does work.
 
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OddishGuy

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When your looking into frame data, how much stun does the opponent get after getting grabreleased/airreleased before being able to act?

EDIT: did some experminenting with the up b desynch and desynched taunt to see if i could cancel the taunt with a up b desynch (like a very flashy teleport bait to just get blizzard in their face) and i think I was able to do it once. For some reason I couldnt get it to work more, so maybe I wasnt looking concentrated enough to see what really happened, if the taunt did get canceled and up b too or that i just got a longer range up b cancel to blizzard.

It could be a interesting option to bait overspacing fairs if it does work.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Grab_release

30 and 50 frames respectively. Ground release has 0 frame advantage, air release has 20 frame advantage.

LMAO, attempting the up-B desync while Nana is taunting caused my 20XX to crash

Sweet. I wouldn't be surprised if the oddities had something to do with Z-plane stuff, since d-tilt probably has some offset and Peach/ICs have weird hurtboxes. The percentages are probably affected somewhat by DI, but the general sense I get from that chart is that it works most of the time against anyone (and especially against floaty/tall characters). Is d-tilt so bad... that it's good?
The pose characters go into after they get hit seems to also affect it. And LOL, it might be. We may soon see it used for more than wobbling for once, haha!
 
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Smasher89

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http://www.ssbwiki.com/Grab_release

30 and 50 frames respectively. Ground release has 0 frame advantage, air release has 20 frame advantage.

LMAO, attempting the up-B desync while Nana is taunting caused my 20XX to crash
!
So basicly 21 frames to react to get a dashgrab with Nana then if failing something to just get the regular grabrelease.

haha, perfect i guess ill do that every time someone want to play on the 20xx version :D
Maybe its even a NTSC thing that got fixed in regular pal, anyone else able to try cancel nanas taunt with the up b desynch?
 

OddishGuy

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So basicly 21 frames to react to get a dashgrab with Nana then if failing something to just get the regular grabrelease.

haha, perfect i guess ill do that every time someone want to play on the 20xx version :D
Maybe its even a NTSC thing that got fixed in regular pal, anyone else able to try cancel nanas taunt with the up b desynch?
16 frames to react. Dash grab takes 8 frames before becoming active, Nana takes 6 frames to listen to you.

I tried it again, the Up-B OoS desync doesn't work when Nana is taunting, it just does a regular Up-B instead of Popo staying grounded.
 
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Vanitas

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Hitlag stun is Floor [dmg/3 + 3], most attacks in the ICs movesets do more than 6 dmg, so the hitlag is at least 5 frames, and Nana's hit connects shortly after. However, D-tilt sucks. Like, 5 dmg kind of suck. So the hitlag is only 4 frames. D-tilt sends at such an angle that Nana's hit doesn't connect, she suffers no hitlag, and you get 3 frames to do something with the desync.
Could you explain this a bit? I'm not super tech savvy but this sounds super interesting. Otherwise, this is real cool stuff! I wonder if ICs could convert CC punishes with this? Dtilt is one of our longest reaching moves and ICs get pushed far due to their traction so maybe this can hit opponents compared to their other lacklustre CC punishes on certain moves.
 

OddishGuy

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Could you explain this a bit? I'm not super tech savvy but this sounds super interesting. Otherwise, this is real cool stuff! I wonder if ICs could convert CC punishes with this? Dtilt is one of our longest reaching moves and ICs get pushed far due to their traction so maybe this can hit opponents compared to their other lacklustre CC punishes on certain moves.
Sure! The equation is {[(% damage of move)/3 + 3] rounded down =frames in hitlag.
Both the attacker and the victim suffer frames of stun called hitlag. Basically, if the hitlag is 6 frames, and Nana hits 6 frames after Popo, then Nana hits the opponent right after they exit the hitlag from Popo's attack, and Nana suffers her own hitlag just like Popo did. The way this desync works is that D-tilt induces very little hitlag because it does very little damage.

(5 damage)/3, + 3, rounded down is 4 frames of hitlag. This means that the hitlag finishes before Nana connects her hit, and the opponent may fly out of the way in time to avoid her swing. This means that Nana suffers no hitlag. She used to be 6 frames behind Popo, but is now 3 frames behind.
Therefore, if you input a move, 1, 2, or 3 frames before Popo can act/finishes the D-tilt, Popo will not but Nana will act (6 frame after the input, like usual).

EDIT: to give kind of a play by play of what goes on.
Popo: Dtilt 0, 1... 7, 8(hit!), still 8 because hitlag, moar 8, LMAO 8, 9, 10... 27 (press A) 28.... 34 end
Nana: chillin 0-6, Dtilt 0, 1, 2 (popo hits)... 7, 8 (Nana whiffs), 9... 23, 24 (A was pressed here)... 28, 29, 30 end D-tilt and start jab, D-tilt interrupted by the A button pressed 6 frames ago.
 
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IC-Rambler

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I think I found a viable alternative to dthrow dair wobble setup.

>Synced grab (nana slides in front)
>Pummel (nana still in grab whiff animation)
>Nana-uptilt (popo in pummel animation)
At this point Nana should be sliding back to popo while preforming an uptilt hitting the grabbed opponent many times (tested on Fox, falco and other viable characters, may not work on puff/short characters)
>Pummel into wobble.

The opponent can break out anytime before the uptilt hits them. It is easier to break out of this then the dthrow dair, but you can't DI out of this uptilt setup, as you can DI out of dthrow dair fairly easily. Might be useful as a mixup if they're more focused on DIing the dthrow dair instead of trying to mash out.
 
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