Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Kyu Puff]

I have actually been doing some research on wobbling as well, though until now I only posted it in the FB chat and I came to slightly different conclusions than you @ OddishGuy .

I originally tested in debug mode and empirically found the range to be between 160 BPM (22.5 frames alternating) and 232 BPM (15.5 frames alternating). However, debug mode disables stale moves completely, which I later realized affects the rhythm of the wobble.

Hitlag functions somewhat differently when the opponent is grabbed. Whenever the victim enters CaptureDamage, the grabber and the victim both suffer the same amount of hitlag. Hitlag is also reduced because moves only deal half as much damage. Fresh f-tilt induces 3 frames of hitlag, and staled it induces 2 frames. Headbutt is the same. D-tilt I haven't really looked at, but I believe it's 2 frames fresh.

Move staling reduces the length of Popo's headbutt as well as the duration of CaptureDamage suffered by the victim (as that's the animation that freezes when they enter hitlag). This means that the lower bound is actually higher than 160 BPM; a rough estimate is 167 BPM (21.5 frames alternating) but in game the slowest I could perform was 176 (20.5 frames alternating). The upper bound is limited by the speed of Popo's headbutt (which is also extended by Nana's f-tilt hitlag). It would be easier to test if debug had move staling.

Some other numbers I found... When you delay the wobble (i.e. start after Nana has recovered from lag), Nana's jab extends Popo's headbutt, so the fastest possible rhythm for the first couple hits is 212 BPM. The fastest you can input Nana's f-tilt without having her double jab is 200 BPM (this isn't required to be inescapable, but it's nice to have the visual cue telling you that you didn't mess up).

 

[OddishGuy]

I have actually been doing some research on wobbling as well, though until now I only posted it in the FB chat and I came to slightly different conclusions than you @ OddishGuy .

I originally tested in debug mode and empirically found the range to be between 160 BPM (22.5 frames alternating) and 232 BPM (15.5 frames alternating). However, debug mode disables stale moves completely, which I later realized affects the rhythm of the wobble.

Hitlag functions somewhat differently when the opponent is grabbed. Whenever the victim enters CaptureDamage, the grabber and the victim both suffer the same amount of hitlag. Hitlag is also reduced because moves only deal half as much damage. Fresh f-tilt induces 3 frames of hitlag, and staled it induces 2 frames. Headbutt is the same. D-tilt I haven't really looked at, but I believe it's 2 frames fresh.

Move staling reduces the length of Popo's headbutt as well as the duration of CaptureDamage suffered by the victim (as that's the animation that freezes when they enter hitlag). This means that the lower bound is actually higher than 160 BPM; a rough estimate is 167 BPM (21.5 frames alternating) but in game the slowest I could perform was 176 (20.5 frames alternating). The upper bound is limited by the speed of Popo's headbutt (which is also extended by Nana's f-tilt hitlag). It would be easier to test if debug had move staling.

Some other numbers I found... When you delay the wobble (i.e. start after Nana has recovered from lag), Nana's jab extends Popo's headbutt, so the fastest possible rhythm for the first couple hits is 212 BPM. The fastest you can input Nana's f-tilt without having her double jab is 200 BPM (this isn't required to be inescapable, but it's nice to have the visual cue telling you that you didn't mess up).

.....THERE'S AN IC FB CHAT?!?

We're saying the same thing for hitlag, just counting on different frames.

Good to know that headbutt is affected by staling as well, I originally had that but since I didn't know about grab damage being halfed I was getting really confused.

Grab damage being halfed actually means that D-tilt never gets a larger window when staled. Bummer

20XX not staling moves stinks, and it's why I said "in theory" a bunch =[

 

[DerfMidWest]

Oddishguy I was like 90% sure you were in the fb chat at somepoint or another,

 

[Kyu Puff]

.....THERE'S AN IC FB CHAT?!?

We're saying the same thing for hitlag, just counting on different frames.

Good to know that headbutt is affected by staling as well, I originally had that but since I didn't know about grab damage being halfed I was getting really confused.

Grab damage being halfed actually means that D-tilt never gets a larger window when staled. Bummer

20XX not staling moves stinks, and it's why I said "in theory" a bunch =[

Yeah, I didn't know about it till recently either.

You came to most of the same conclusions as me, I think the main thing I found differently is that the window is actually a lot narrower in practice since the lower bound increases as staled moves induce fewer frames of CaptureDamage.

 

[Benny P]

yo where is the fb chat so i can stalk on there

 

[Smasher89]

So, a few pages back we discussed the frameadvantage from getting a regular grabrelease, i think it were something along the line of 20 frames with the extra climber.

However how does airrelease work and do we still got a big advantage there and any guarantied followups(basicly how much would the advantage be)?

Im thinking about this since intentional grab/airreleases probably has the potencial to for example eat jumps and punish(giving some solid easy backup kills). It would also be a mixup to the dthrow dair which is used a ton.

 

[OddishGuy]

So, a few pages back we discussed the frameadvantage from getting a regular grabrelease, i think it were something along the line of 20 frames with the extra climber.

However how does airrelease work and do we still got a big advantage there and any guarantied followups(basicly how much would the advantage be)?

Im thinking about this since intentional grab/airreleases probably has the potencial to for example eat jumps and punish(giving some solid easy backup kills). It would also be a mixup to the dthrow dair which is used a ton.

Grab release gives no frame advantage(30 endlag victim, 30 endlag grabber), air release gives 20(50 endlag victim, 30 endlag grabber).
The "Advantage" comes from Nana not suffering from any of the lag.
So for a normal grab release you have 16 frames to react (1 frame dash, 7 frame grab, 6 frame nana lag).
For an air release, I suppose you would have 36 frames to react, but TBH, IDK why anyone would opt for this if they have any inclination they'll get released

EDIT: How the heck do I quote in this thing? XD

 

[Smasher89]

The reason is because at super low %, against people who mashes, punish their mash might be easier to set up the frame perfect wobblestart(which nana might not be positioned perfecly for, even though you might have control over her) it also covers mashing out in general.
So could be an easier method to get the smashkills from a wobble without a risk of missing the timing to get a "low knockback" smash for example. I used this to basicly set up for pressure that lead to grabs back in brawl(even on metaknight, whos got such good framedata), i realize theres no reason to not learn how big the advantage is in melee since it gave a ton of grabs in oppoturnities i basicly had missed, but since I understood the situation well enough I often got grabs kinda quickly afterwards.

I assume you wont be able to get the airrelease pummel punish on some chars like puff though.

 

[OddishGuy]

The reason is because at super low %, against people who mashes, punish their mash might be easier to set up the frame perfect wobblestart(which nana might not be positioned perfecly for, even though you might have control over her) it also covers mashing out in general.

So something like this?
http://gfycat.com/FlashyContentHochstettersfrog

To clarify what I said earlier, I don't think the opponent would opt for an air release (unless they're off the edge I guess). So you can count on having no frame advantage with Popo, just the advantage of having an actionable Nana.

 

[Samwisely]

Solidly held my own today against the top players in my state, 2-0d someone I usually struggle with, and was told that with some consistency, I'll be making big waves in-state soon. I'll take it. The biggest improvements of the day were keeping a better frame of mind, and finally not sucking at the Falco MU after putting in a ton of research and theory work.

P.S. How would one find that IC FB chat? I check Facebook way more frequently than Smashboards, and that seems a lot more useful for asking quick questions about specific situations.

 

[fatman.spam]

How do I do this ?
http://gfycat.com/NastyComplicatedGrunion#

 

[Smasher89]

So something like this?
http://gfycat.com/FlashyContentHochstettersfrog

To clarify what I said earlier, I don't think the opponent would opt for an air release (unless they're off the edge I guess). So you can count on having no frame advantage with Popo, just the advantage of having an actionable Nana.

Exacly, Tried it out and it seems to work nicely against peach at around 0-30% to dtilt her after grabrelease, setting up perfecly for a regrab, after that the knockback from the dtilt seems to strong to set up for that, but since you are desynched I think a desynched combo might actually be a ideal punish which is really cool.

Do note it seems the dtilt can be CC'd, so maybe blizzard can be a good mixup, and i assume that is going to force them to buffer roll away, which i guess you can check, but popo might always have time to react to that if thats really their only option out of being grounded and hit by grounded blizzard. Lol i think some IC main should get a stream up so we can brainstorm all this grabrelease options imo.

 

[OddishGuy]

That's an Up-B OoS desync Fatman. (sorry, I still DK how to quote stuff ;_; )

I've been practicing reaction tech-chases a bit, and every once in a while I go for a jab reset and get hit by a get-up attack. It looks like I get the jab reset in time, and they're not already in the get-up attack animation, but it still activates.
Does anyone know what's going on here?

My assumption is that they activate a getup attack a frame or two before the jab connects, but I can see it being something else entirely.

 

[Kyu Puff]

That's an Up-B OoS desync Fatman. (sorry, I still DK how to quote stuff ;_; )

I've been practicing reaction tech-chases a bit, and every once in a while I go for a jab reset and get hit by a get-up attack. It looks like I get the jab reset in time, and they're not already in the get-up attack animation, but it still activates.
Does anyone know what's going on here?

My assumption is that they activate a getup attack a frame or two before the jab connects, but I can see it being something else entirely.

I don't think I ever posted the details of how resets actually work.

If you are hit by an attack that does less than 7.00% while in the DownBound (bounce when you 1st hit the ground without teching) or DownWait (after the bounce when laying on the ground) actions you go into the DownDamage action during the knockback. This animation is 13 frames long (probably for all characters but I'm not positive).


If DownDamage ends while in the air you change actions to Fall (also canceling out any remaining hitstun you may have had), and you can jump/do whatever out of it or simply land on your feet if you touch the ground. This is very apparent on things like using a stale raptor boost or stale shine with Falco on a downed character, since the KB is powerful enough to send them far but is still able to do less than 7 dmg. They go flying upwards while in the fall animation and without hitstun.

A/S/DI upwards will help you get higher from the knockback and can be used to keep you in the air long enough for the animation to complete before landing and escape a reset. For whatever reason, you are allowed to A/S/DI non-tumble KBs with angles 0° or lower normally while in DownDamage. You normally can't A/SDI vertically or use any form of trajectory DI on them when on the ground.


If DownDamage ends while on the ground, however, you change actions to DownWait if you were still in hitstun or directly into DownStand if you were not. The former is what I would call an Option Tap Reset, and the latter an Optionless Tap Reset. If you are in DownWait you are forced to get up when hitstun ends, but you are also able to interrupt the animation with either a getup stand/roll/attack at any time before then.

For example, Fox's shine, Falco's laser, and Peach's jab 1 all have no knockback growth. The shine's KB is strong enough to stun all characters for 13+ frames, and so a reset will always be an OTR on all characters. The laser causes 12 or less stun on all characters and so the reset is always an OLTR. The jab causes 13+ stun for everyone that is Falco's weight or lighter and is an OTR on them, but 12 or less on everyone heavier and is an OLTR on those characters. For ones with KBG, Sheik's jab 1 and needles are an OLTR until they're around 40 or so depending on weight, and Jiggs' jab 1 is an OLTR until near 100 (really stupid).

tldr:

-The reset attack needs to do less than 7.00% damage
-They need to be back touching the ground after 13 frames of knockback. Because of this, A/S/DIing upwards will help you to escape a reset
-If hitstun is 12 frames or less they are forced into a stand getup only. If the stun is 13+ they have the option of standing, rolling, or attacking as their forced getup

Popo's jab is an optionless tap reset on Fox until 43% (if the jab is stale at all the threshold might be slightly higher). If his percentage is higher than that, jab will inflict more than 12 frames of hitstun and he'll be able to choose his getup animation.

If the victim is hit by a second move during DownDamage, they'll enter DownDamage again from the beginning. That means synched jab only slightly affects the hitstun threshold--the opponent has more percentage, leading to higher knockback, but Nana's jab is also staled and deals less damage than the first one. Against Fox synched jab is an OLTR until 42%.

Synched jab is easy to escape for another reason: it gives the opponent twice as many frames to SDI up--and as Magus notes, if the opponent DIs high enough that they're still in the air at the end of the 13 frame animation, they'll enter Fall and be able to act out of it immediately (this is the main reason jab resets are less common at a high level). I've been playing around with the idea of using turnaround jab or turnaround f-tilt to reset with solo jabs instead.

 

[TheRealFluid]

Is anyone aware of Fox's forward throw option on Ice Climbers? Professor Pro uses it extensively and demolishes Nintendude in this set (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x9Lh1rR3Ko) using said technique.

Is there anything Nintendude could've done better, or is it really that good of a move at separating the Ice Climbers? I fear that as Pro gets more exposure in the states, this will become more and more used by Fox mains >.>

 

[Kyu Puff]

Is anyone aware of Fox's forward throw option on Ice Climbers? Professor Pro uses it extensively and demolishes Nintendude in this set (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x9Lh1rR3Ko) using said technique.

Is there anything Nintendude could've done better, or is it really that good of a move at separating the Ice Climbers? I fear that as Pro gets more exposure in the states, this will become more and more used by Fox mains >.>

If he just runs up and grabs while you're shielding, you can shield grab (no matter which Climber he grabs). In a lot of those situations Nana was already separated or airborne, though, so I'm not sure how he could have responded better. On the other hand, run up shine would have been just as effective in some of those situations. He probably got grabbed more than he should have because he wasn't conditioned to expect it--safer movement, rolling/spotdodging at crucial moments, and faster mashing all would have helped.

Prof's grabbing Popo and then waiting for Nana was really smart though. If she attacks it makes Popo slide really far away and gives you a chance to kill her, and if she doesn't he can use the throw hitbox to hit her away before she's under human control.

 

[Jnigo]

yo where is the fb chat so i can stalk on there

I'd like to know as well to do what this guy is doing

 

[jaseroque]

Is there an updated / more detailed character match-up guide somewhere? If not, I'm having trouble with the Marth match-up and would like to know my options for approaching through / punishing Marth's dtilt, fair, nair, ftilt, utilt, fsmash, and forward b. I feel like whenever I go in I get hit and comboed. When I try and fair against dtilt, I often get caught by a fair, and when I try to desync blizzard they seem to recover in time to do a dtilt to stop my attempt to grab or dsmash. Is there anything I can do differently or do I just need to learn to read/adapt to their movements?

 

[OddishGuy]

So we all know Fox/Falco "ledge"-dash onto platforms is hella good, but what about ICs?

We can rising iceblock onto a BF, FoD, DL, YS platforms from the ledge, and have the iceblock come out, but suffer 21 frames of vulnerableness. On DL, jump from ledge, waveland on plat may be "better," but I think this is a decent, once-a-set, mixup on BF and YS (FoD's weird).

I think this thing is pretty unviable, but I doubt anyone expects an IC to be on a platform, let alone from the ledge.

For comparison of options, a good IC ledge-dash to WD would put you in the center of YS on the first frame of vulnerability.
A Fox would be halfway down from a ledgedash Bair, on and past a YS platform, on the first frame of vulnerability.

One could also Airdodge up to a platform and edgecancel the landing, I suppose.



IC's ledgedash is pretty bonkers, but I thought it'd be interesting to look at the other options.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I like to just jump then air dodge up on the platforms every once in awhile.
Sometimes I also just mix in neutral get up->ftilt and neutral get up->walk. I think they're pretty good when used correctly.

 

[Kyu Puff]

ICs' ledgedash is so good that I rarely use anything else. Sometimes waveland in place is a good option if they start respecting your ledgedash space and punishing just outside of it.

 

[Smasher89]

Popo's jab is an optionless tap reset on Fox until 43%

Any % for iceblocks?, bthrow to iceblockreset would be nice to know when it's guarantied on no tech and not.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Any % for iceblocks?, bthrow to iceblockreset would be nice to know when it's guarantied on no tech and not.

Jab actually works until 51%, and Ice Block works until 69% (if it's on the ground) or 83% (if it hits them while still in the air). Also, if the Ice Block is staled at all that goes up to 82% and 101%.

I will be posting a spreadsheet for this stuff soon (hopefully sometime next week).

 

[Smog]

Im guessing Nana can't v cancel?

 

[OddishGuy]

It's possible she does it on her own, but I don't think it's possible to influence her to do so.

 

[OddishGuy]

I heard some stuff about ICs dropping wobbles at TBH5 and of course there's the infamous Fly wobbles(sorry), so I figured it'd be worth mentioning a method that has recently been successful for me.

Some of you know, some of you don't, I haven't been able to wobble for almost a year now. Literally dropped 100% of wobbles in tourney sets, friendlies, and CPU grinding. Just lost the rhythm after not playing for ~two months or so.

Anyhow, how does someone wobble without the rhythm? The answer lies in the visual cue inherent in wobbling!!!!

When F-tilt wobbling, Nana walks a bit forward; basically the wobble actions are pummel with Popo, walk a bit and F-tilt with Nana, repeat. Nana gets sucked back to Popo because of 'the force' (of love).

The faster you wobble, the less Nana walks forward; the slower you wobble, the more Nana walks.
This means that at a given BPM, Nana will remain at a certain distance from Popo, giving us a visual cue to know what BPM we're wobbling with.

The idea is to memorize the spacing Nana has from Popo while F-tilt wobbling at 190 BPM. We can adjust our timing until we get to that distance, and continue the wobble at that timing or continue going off the spacing. I'm no musician, but if I tap to a BPM once, I can tap to that BPM for at least another 10 seconds; some people can't, so if you want to use the visual cue the entire time there's no huge downside.

How accurate is this?

I've typically started with F-tilt wobbling, go off the distance to get to a 190 BPM wobble, count to myself one 1, 2, 3, 4 cycle, and start switching to D-tilt wobbling before the finish. This is just to ensure that F-tilt is unstaled, but the point is that I can now switch to, and consistently wobble with D-tilt after starting with this spacing method with F-tilts. We know that D-tilt wobbling is more precise, so if the beat I pick up from the visual cue can allow me to go from no wobbles to wobble master in a day, I'd say it's pretty accurate.

I'll try to post a picture of the F-tilt 190 BPM wobble spacing later. This also assumes you have the stick tilted all the way so that Nana consistently walks fast/gets to the same distance.

 

[941]

Shoutouts to Fork for beating Saus and Matt Dot Zeb to get 33rd at BH5.

 

[ilysm]

Quick question: I've seen a few Icies (mostly Fly) desync out of what appears to be a wavedash backwards. I can't see anything other than wavedash back -> solo Nana blizzard going on. Am I missing something? How do I perform this?

 

[Kyu Puff]

Quick question: I've seen a few Icies (mostly Fly) desync out of what appears to be a wavedash backwards. I can't see anything other than wavedash back -> solo Nana blizzard going on. Am I missing something? How do I perform this?

You're probably seeing wavedash back into a fast dash dance desynch. There are faster ways to desynch out of a wavedash (involving the solo-jump sensitivity desynch) but to my knowledge nobody has actually used them in real matches yet.

 

[ilysm]

Fast dash-dance? Is this the triple dash-dance or the double dash-dance? Double seems considerably slower but perhaps I'm doing it wrong.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Fast dash-dance? Is this the triple dash-dance or the double dash-dance? Double seems considerably slower but perhaps I'm doing it wrong.

Most likely the triple dash dance, because when done very quickly the dashes are hard to tell apart. The double looks more like a distinct dash back -> dash forward, though it's not necessarily slower.

You can see me using some quick two-dash variants at the beginning of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQduu876maY

Here are some fast three-dash variants: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-lYbyTWL-g#t=7m9s

 

[ilysm]

Excellent. Thanks for the tip! ^_^

 

[ArcDawn]

@Fly_Amanita during your set against DarkAtma at Big House, what do you think you could've done differently to win the games? Or, what was giving you trouble when fighting him?

 

[FlamingForce]

@Fly_Amanita during your set against DarkAtma at Big House, what do you think you could've done differently to win the games? Or, what was giving you trouble when fighting him?

The man pulled 3 stitches in 1 game.

What the **** was he supposed to do LOL.

 

[Smasher89]

After wobbling to for example 160 %, If Ic stops right there stop does the opponent mashing make any real difference in the timing of the release or are the window(for the release to initiate) really small so it can be a consistent timing to for example grabrelease fsmash? I guess that can be a very viable option compare to throw>smash if thats the case since theres less inputs to worry about.

 

[941]

My understanding is that if the opponent mashes enough during the wobble, it will buffer the grab release as soon as the opponent is out of hit stun. So if the opponent mashes enough, it's probably doable to time an F-smash with the grab release. I think it would still be easier to just wobble to a safe % and D-smash though.

 

[Army805]

Is it possible to tech a d-smash wobble finisher (no throw popo pummel into nana d-smash or d-throw to d-smash) with ASDI'ing down, SDI'ing down, and DI'ing at the lowest possible trajectory? What about f-throw/d-throw to f-smash or grab release f-smash? If so, is d-throw to upsmash the most optimal wobble finisher?

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone use the single dash desynch? You have to be facing away from the direction you dash because it only works when Nana is on a 5-frame delay (I guess she skips the pivot frame) and your attack has to be frame perfect (frame 20 of Popo's dash), but if you can get the timing down consistently, which seems possible, it would offer an instant desynch with more range than with DD or pivot.

Just based on a little bit of practice, I'd recommend ignoring the distance you travel since that's dependent on how long you hold the stick during dash. Instead, I've been looking at Popo's feet and pressing B right as his feet land flat on the ground. Also, you can option select shield in case you're worried nothing comes out. Nana will attack if you timed it right and shield if you didn't. Popo will shield no matter what, but assuming you get the ice block, you can just WD OoS (not ideal obv, but not bad for extra safety).

Speaking of pivots, having Nana do a SH ice block/blizzard seems like a really quick and useful desynch. You just jump on the same frame as Popo's pivot which prevents him from jumping, and his subsequent dash prevents the B/down-B input from doing anything.

Hopefully these aren't common knowledge. I only picked up ICs yesterday and haven't seen anyone use these. I've only really seen people do non-dodge desynchs with pivot fsmash or DD.

 

[tauKhan]

You just input the jump on Popo's pivot frame which prevents him from jumping, and his subsequent dash prevents the B/down-B input from doing anything.

To clarify, you have to input the jump the same frame you input dash, so it's a different timing than normal pivot actions. It works because turn takes precedence over jump during dash. So popo turns, and nana jumps, because she cannot turn.

Wobbles discovered this pivot jump desynch in 2007(possibly earlier), but I haven't seen it used either. Then again I don't really watch that much IC play.

I played with the idea of approaching with pivot jump desynch bair with nana -> popo grab, so that if the bair gets blocked, the grab hits during shield stun and can start a wobble. Sounds kind of broken, but I guess it doesn't really work in the reality because the 6 frame delay on nana makes the bair come out too slowly to be used in this manner.

 

[Bones0]

To clarify, you have to input the jump the same frame you input dash, so it's a different timing than normal pivot actions. It works because turn takes precedence over jump during dash. So popo turns, and nana jumps, because she cannot turn.

Wobbles discovered this pivot jump desynch in 2007(possibly earlier), but I haven't seen it used either. Then again I don't really watch that much IC play.

I played with the idea of approaching with pivot jump desynch bair with nana -> popo grab, so that if the bair gets blocked, the grab hits during shield stun and can start a wobble. Sounds kind of broken, but I guess it doesn't really work in the reality because the 6 frame delay on nana makes the bair come out too slowly to be used in this manner.

Sorry, I just misspoke. I was trying to say to input them on the same frame. Thanks for the correction.

I also thought about that bair, but then I figured synced bairs on shield are already so gdlk there's not much reason to desync unless, like you said, you think you can get the grab. It definitely looks at least useful for zoning purposes because of how far out Nana jumps from Popo.