Social General Ice Climber Chat

[tauKhan]

Bones0 The point for the desync nana bair over synced bairs was that it would allow you to keep popo safe during the bair, while still being able to block string into grab. Also popo could possibly punish attacks on nana, while nana would be able to guard the ending lag of popo's grab. I have never been able to use it that way though, it probably doesn't work. Just shared my thoughts on the off chance that it would be useful for someone else.

The post I clarified wasn't wrong, just a little ambiguous
Explanation below if you're interested, ignore o.w.

Spoiler

What you said about the jump pivot can be interpreted to mean that the inputs should be made on the same frame. It just depends on the interpretation of the two expressions: "input on frame" and "pivot frame". Your post is correct if you interpret that:
1) inputs are made at the beginning of frames and take place immediately
2) "pivot frame" is the frame you start in dash and end in Turn. (as opposed to the consequent frame, the first frame at the start of which you're in Turn)
Since there's no natural correct way to evaluate the expressions, I thought it's better to explain the required inputs differently.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Bones0 I've played around with that variant of the smash turn desynch before. The dash dance desynch is generally better in my opinion because it has a much larger range of possible inputs--Nana's Blizzard can be input as soon as frame 14 (as opposed to frame 22 with the single dash variant), or as late as you want (it can be extended by using longer dashes, more dashes, foxtrotting, etc).

The single dash is interesting because there are fewer visual cues the opponent can use to anticipate Nana's attack, so it might be used more if it weren't for the frame perfect timing... I had never thought of using shield as a failsafe, though, that's pretty clever.

I played with the idea of approaching with pivot jump desynch bair with nana -> popo grab, so that if the bair gets blocked, the grab hits during shield stun and can start a wobble. Sounds kind of broken, but I guess it doesn't really work in the reality because the 6 frame delay on nana makes the bair come out too slowly to be used in this manner.

Is there any way to Nana b-air without also attacking with Popo? You can shield during the few frames that correspond to Nana's jumpsquat, but Popo will still roll when you input the b-air (and be facing the wrong direction).

Edit: I guess you could dash with Popo, input b-air with the c-stick, then dash back towards their shield and grab. That sounds like it would be really scary in neutral if it could be performed consistently.

 

[Dr. Windbox]

Idk y but in melee, when the announcer says Ice Climbers when you win it is satisfying as hell. Anyone else feel this way?

 

[OddishGuy]

Bones0
Is there any way to Nana b-air without also attacking with Popo? You can shield during the few frames that correspond to Nana's jumpsquat, but Popo will still roll when you input the b-air (and be facing the wrong direction).

Edit: I guess you could dash with Popo, input b-air with the c-stick, then dash back towards their shield and grab. That sounds like it would be really scary in neutral if it could be performed consistently.

I believe Popo would not attack with the Bair input because he's in dash.

Pivot jump -> Nana Bair while Popo dashes away -> Popo dash back for followup.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I believe Popo would not attack with the Bair input because he's in dash.

Pivot jump -> Nana Bair while Popo dashes away -> Popo dash back for followup.

Yeah that's what I was saying... if you did it with A on the other hand he'd dash attack or f-smash. Originally I'd assumed Popo would pivot stop in which case he'd always attack no matter which button you used.

 

[tauKhan]

Bones0 I guess you could dash with Popo, input b-air with the c-stick, then dash back towards their shield and grab. That sounds like it would be really scary in neutral if it could be performed consistently.

Yes , that's exactly what I meant. I think it can be done relatively consistently, it should be no more difficult than doing other pivots. The main problem I ran into was how slow the nana bair comes out, it seemed easy to play around or even interrupt with retreating moves without me being able to punish. On the other hand I have very little experience with the ICs and I didn't practice the tech very much, there might be some potential I couldn't untap.

 

[Smasher89]

Edit: I guess you could dash with Popo, input b-air with the c-stick, then dash back towards their shield and grab. That sounds like it would be really scary in neutral if it could be performed consistently.

Yea, Ive been thinking about that for a long while, and even if Popos grab would miss since the opponent probably can roll out of desynched bair>grab I think it might not be possible to escape both that and nana dashgrab just after she lands from the bair, esentially using the strenght in the most pressuring consistent lowrisk high reward way,

 

[Bones0]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/v/20047275?t=5h55m

My brand new Icies! Got bopped (less so than with my main actually lol), but it was fun. I was wobbling CPUs just fine the night before, so it was frustrating to drop so many vs. human opponents. It seems like my problem was jabbing with Nana instead of ftilting. :/

 

[tauKhan]

Just occurred to me that you can also pivot nana only jc upsmash. When you do it, nana slides quite a bit while doing the upsmash. Could be useful for approaching or taking space, since popo can follow nana from safe distance and probably punish atttempts to hit nana. Also it should be possible to block string the upsmash into popo grab as well.

 

[OddishGuy]

Just occurred to me that you can also pivot nana only jc upsmash. When you do it, nana slides quite a bit while doing the upsmash. Could be useful for approaching or taking space, since popo can follow nana from safe distance and probably punish atttempts to hit nana. Also it should be possible to block string the upsmash into popo grab as well.

I loooooooove Up-smash. IDK why, it's just super fun.
Anyway, here's a gfy of the solo Nana JC Upsmash to Popo DD grab.
Looks pretty cool, IDK how people will do it without claw though.

Link in case Gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/WeakWarlikeCutworm

I actually think this is decent at low %. It sets up for wobbles nicely, keeps Popo safe (RIP Nana) and most importantly it's a fair anti-air.

 

[cemo]

definitely seems sorta impossible without claw, haha. my thumb is not that fast.
i like to try to do pivot jump desyncs in friendlies, usually just ice blocks/blizzards. but i'm feeling more confident with it and might try it at some weeklies or something.

i try to point it out when i do it but nobody cares unless they also play ICs.

 

[TheRealFluid]

How are you supposed to DI Luigi's downthrow followups? Everytime he seems to be able to get a forward air/back air.

 

[IceForceGemini]

probably the oldest and most asked question ever but how the hell do I beat marth's downtilt?

 

[Kyu Puff]

probably the oldest and most asked question ever but how the hell do I beat marth's downtilt?

You can move in with a wavedash/dash attack right after the hitbox ends, retreat and shoot projectiles if you have enough stage behind you, shieldgrab or crouch cancel grab if he does it too close to you, roll behind him or wavedash/roll away if he hits your shield near the tip, shorthop f-air over it, or triangle jump over it (airdodge into the ground in front of him so that you can crouch cancel grab whatever attack he throws out). None of these options are foolproof (some are prone to grab/dash back, and some, especially the last two, require a read on your part).

How are you supposed to DI Luigi's downthrow followups? Everytime he seems to be able to get a forward air/back air.

The optimal angle would be 200 degrees I think (i.e., if he threw you facing left, you would DI somewhere in between the right and bottom-right notches. But that angle is pretty difficult to hit (anything up to 198 will just be registered as 180 degrees) so you might as well just DI behind him.

 

[tauKhan]

definitely seems sorta impossible without claw, haha. my thumb is not that fast.

Unfortunately that's very true. I also just figured out that the input has to be double fp: you can't upsmash on 2nd jumpsquat frame, because then popo will pivot upsmash, so you have to input upsmash on exactly 3rd frame of jumpsquat. I would say it's too hard to do consistently, at least it's too hard for me.

 

[OddishGuy]

Unfortunately that's very true. I also just figured out that the input has to be double fp: you can't upsmash on 2nd jumpsquat frame, because then popo will pivot upsmash, so you have to input upsmash on exactly 3rd frame of jumpsquat. I would say it's too hard to do consistently, at least it's too hard for me.

Haha, this window is actually kind of silly. If you input Upsmash on the first frame of jumpsquat, you get the upsmash too.

This means that the window goes like this.

Frame 1 is frame of dash back
Jump frame 1 + Up on C-stick frame 1 = Solo Nana Upsmash
Jump frame 1 + Up on C-stick frame 2 = Nana JC Upsmash + Popo Pivot upsmash
Jump frame 1 + Up on C-stick frame 3 = Solo Nana Upsmash
Jump frame 1 + Up on C-stick frame 4 = Solo Nana Upair

So we have 2 frames to accomplish the Solo Nana Upsmash, but they're not together. So it's not really frame perfect.... but it kind of is.
I don't think I've seen something like this before TBH.

I would lean towards doing it early, rather than later. This way if you mess up (The Upsmash doesn't come out or you both jump) you can quarter circle the C-stick and get a Bair instead.

 

[S2rulL]

i'm having a £20 MM where wobbling is banned vs a competent yoshi

on a scale of 1 to 10, how ****ed am i?

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

So I don't play ICs at all, I am more into the super fast technical characters in PM, but I thought of something while doing shield pressure with Lucas. Can ICs do like crazy cool inescapable shield pressure with desyncs?I don't see why you couldn't, but I play this character.

 

[OddishGuy]

So I don't play ICs at all, I am more into the super fast technical characters in PM, but I thought of something while doing shield pressure with Lucas. Can ICs do like crazy cool inescapable shield pressure with desyncs?I don't see why you couldn't, but I play this character.

No shield pressure with any character is really inescapable, but solo squall to Nana blizzard comes close. The opponent shouldn't be able to get out of the squall unharmed, unless they use a buffered roll, and once the Nana blizzard starts, they will be stuck in shield.
The counter to this is that solo squall is pretty bad, so you should be able to get hit, CC or something and punish.

Dual aerials are pretty cool, but leave a lot of room to be escaped. Desynced SHACFF Bairs should be the best for this, but leave around 15-20 frames to escape.

Here's a link to a solo squall shield pressure gif. When the Falcon is Purple, he is undergoing shield stun and cannot move.
http://gfycat.com/WickedChillyArabianoryx

 

[S2rulL]

Here's a link to a solo squall shield pressure gif. When the Falcon is Purple, he is undergoing shield stun and cannot move.
http://gfycat.com/WickedChillyArabianoryx

Oddish - the gfycat master

 

[Vanitas]

No shield pressure with any character is really inescapable, but solo squall to Nana blizzard comes close. The opponent shouldn't be able to get out of the squall unharmed, even with a buffered roll, and once the Nana blizzard starts, they will be stuck in shield.
The counter to this is that solo squall is pretty bad, so you should be able to get hit, CC or something and punish.

Dual aerials are pretty cool, but leave a lot of room to be escaped. Desynced SHACFF Bairs should be the best for this, but leave around 15-20 frames to escape.

Here's a link to a solo squall shield pressure gif. When the Falcon is Purple, he is undergoing shield stun and cannot move.
http://gfycat.com/WickedChillyArabianoryx

This is actually so cool! Are you saying he cannot escape just in general? I guess he could let go shield buffer down and CC the hits of squall hammer. Perhaps it could be shield DI'd out too. Pretty cool stuff otherwise!

 

[tauKhan]

Haha, this window is actually kind of silly. If you input Upsmash on the first frame of jumpsquat, you get the upsmash too.
...

Jump frame 1 + Up on C-stick frame 1 = Solo Nana Upsmash
...

How did you test this? I tried it today and was unable to do it. Also if I dash with ics, pause, input backwards with control stick + up cstick + x and then unpause, nana only jumps which suggests that I was initially correct.

 

[OddishGuy]

Oddish - the gfycat master

Haha, I try. I actually already had this gfy lying around, so glad I got a chance to post it LOL.

This is actually so cool! Are you saying he cannot escape just in general? I guess he could let go shield buffer down and CC the hits of squall hammer. Perhaps it could be shield DI'd out too. Pretty cool stuff otherwise!

So the first two hits are near inescapable. Every other hit of squall has 4-5 frames to escape in between each-other. If done perfectly, the blizzard comes out at a time where when Popo goes for a grab, it's guaranteed.
The opponent has around 35 frames to react to the squall hits before the blizzard traps them. Even if they react in time, if they pick the wrong option a grab should be confirmed.
TBH, jumps shouldn't work and buffered spot dodge gets caught by blizzard. Buffered rolls should escape. IDK if CC would work, unless you CC and then buffer a roll. I think the best way to escape is to buffer a roll or to get hit and SDI up or out. The blizzard should still hit if you use the SDI method, but it would be harder to confirm into grab.
It's somewhat hard to react in 35 frames, maybe less when you account for the blizzard trapping you. It's also just super weird pressure, since opponents should be used to CC punishing squall, not using defensive options against it.


Raw grab should be better than this in general, but it's still super fun!

 

[OddishGuy]

How did you test this? I tried it today and was unable to do it. Also if I dash with ics, pause, input backwards with control stick + up cstick + x and then unpause, nana only jumps which suggests that I was initially correct.

You're right. For some reason I was under the impression Nana would be walking fast with the DD instead of dashing. So this is truly frame perfect then =S

 

[Bones0]

Is what he's saying about taunting true? Is there any info on when Nana taunts?

 

[Kyu Puff]

No, it's false. Nana taunts if she is actionable and in CPU mode within a certain time window after dying, only if you've KO'd an opponent earlier in the match. She starts every stock in CPU mode and will taunt when she lands unless you reunite with her before then. Squall forces her to reunite before landing, but there are other (faster) ways to do it as well.

http://smashboards.com/threads/decoding-why-nana-taunts.395478/

I've done more research since then, and there are a few revisions I need to make to that thread, but it's mostly right.

 

[OddishGuy]

Ayyyy let's talk about running grabs.

So whether or not it's jump-cancelled, a running grab often pushes Nana too far away for her forward/down tilts to connect for a fast wobble on certain characters. This means that if the opponent is at low%, they can easily mash out before Nana's forward/down tilts start connecting and the wobble truly begins. We know that from a standing grab we can typically get a wobble off of a grab even at 0%, so not converting off of these running grabs really really stinks.

I mentioned a while back that a remedy for this is aerials. Some other suggestions were Uptilt and Jab. Jab was nice because the back-swing goes so far that it will often hit, but Jab-wobbling is weird and difficult. Uptilt works to true combo into the regular F-tilt wobble. It's also nice to Uptilt because even if the opponent escapes, catching them with an Uptilt can sometimes be converted off of.

But anyways, aerials. Nair and Dair both reach far enough behind them that you should, in theory, be able to use them to convert into a wobble. The aerial needs to be L-canceled, but this is actually relatively easy to do. The idea is to L-cancel with Z; this Z input will also activate the next pummel. Fantastic!

So the inputs go something like this
grab (Jump cancelled)
Pummel
Jump+A (you have to do this before Popo is actionable, otherwise the A will input an early pummel)
Z (L-cancels the Nair, innitiates a Pummel with Popo)
Tilt control stick + A (tilt with Nana)

Notes:
The Nair has to be performed pretty quickly after leaving the ground, obviously being frame perfect would be nice, but not at all necessary. Just don't go for a landing Nair or something silly like that.
The tilt is just like the tilt for starting a normal wobble, and it brings all of the problems. Don't charge an F-smash, don't do a dash attack, don't jab, etc.
If the grab isn't jumpcancelled, you have to wait 10 frames since Nana is chilling for another 10 frames.

Anyhow, it doesn't take very long to learn, here's a gfy visualization.

Here's a link in case the gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/PoliticalRawDiamondbackrattlesnake

Once that first pummel connects it's all over, as true a wobble should be.

This thing is also pretty stylish, so if you want to learn it for that purpose I'd say it's worth it. You could even wobble with only aerials if you wanted to, or something like Pummel -> F-tilt -> Pummel -> Dair -> Pummel -> D-tilt -> Pummel -> Nair -> etc. would be super cool.


EDIT: Reverse F-tilt works, along with the jab and Uptilt, to maintain a wobble.

 

[Bones0]

That seems useful, but if you are specifically going for a grab during dash, I think the best way might be to shield stop into the grab as opposed to JCing. Shield stopping during dash (not run, unfortunately) totally prevents the usual slipperiness both climbers encounter during grabs, so as long as she can unshield fast enough, that makes things simpler than having to aerial.

 

[Army805]

Ayyyy let's talk about running grabs.

So whether or not it's jump-cancelled, a running grab often pushes Nana too far away for her forward/down tilts to connect for a fast wobble on certain characters. This means that if the opponent is at low%, they can easily mash out before Nana's forward/down tilts start connecting and the wobble truly begins. We know that from a standing grab we can typically get a wobble off of a grab even at 0%, so not converting off of these running grabs really really stinks.

I mentioned a while back that a remedy for this is aerials. Some other suggestions were Uptilt and Jab. Jab was nice because the back-swing goes so far that it will often hit, but Jab-wobbling is weird and difficult. Uptilt works to true combo into the regular F-tilt wobble. It's also nice to Uptilt because even if the opponent escapes, catching them with an Uptilt can sometimes be converted off of.

But anyways, aerials. Nair and Dair both reach far enough behind them that you should, in theory, be able to use them to convert into a wobble. The aerial needs to be L-canceled, but this is actually relatively easy to do. The idea is to L-cancel with Z; this Z input will also activate the next pummel. Fantastic!

So the inputs go something like this
grab (Jump cancelled)
Pummel
Jump+A (you have to do this before Popo is actionable, otherwise the A will input an early pummel)
Z (L-cancels the Nair, innitiates a Pummel with Popo)
Tilt control stick + A (tilt with Nana)

Notes:
The Nair has to be performed pretty quickly after leaving the ground, obviously being frame perfect would be nice, but not at all necessary. Just don't go for a landing Nair or something silly like that.
The tilt is just like the tilt for starting a normal wobble, and it brings all of the problems. Don't charge an F-smash, don't do a dash attack, don't jab, etc.
If the grab isn't jumpcancelled, you have to wait 10 frames since Nana is chilling for another 10 frames.

Anyhow, it doesn't take very long to learn, here's a gfy visualization.

Here's a link in case the gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/PoliticalRawDiamondbackrattlesnake

Once that first pummel connects it's all over, as true a wobble should be.

This thing is also pretty stylish, so if you want to learn it for that purpose I'd say it's worth it. You could even wobble with only aerials if you wanted to, or something like Pummel -> F-tilt -> Pummel -> Dair -> Pummel -> D-tilt -> Pummel -> Nair -> etc. would be super cool.


EDIT: Reverse F-tilt works, along with the jab and Uptilt, to maintain a wobble.

I love this.

 

[OddishGuy]

So a while back there was some discussion with Bomono about edgeguards against spacies. Blizzard's hitbox positions are RNG based, and F-smash hits are frame perfect, the best way to edgeguard multiple options seems to be to have Nana steal the ledge. This was especially useful in covering Firefox options. Theoretically, you could get Nana to edgehog while Popo covered onstage and on platform recovery.

However, it's often the case that Nana is too slow to get to the edge. You often don't have time to Up-B OoS -> Nana grab ledge. So the fastest way to have Nana edgehog was discussed a bit and found to be a tripping method. By WDing offstage in shield, both climbers are forced to grab the ledge, or tumble. Nana is unable to do her usual DJ back onstage due to the tumble, so if Popo lets go of the ledge fast enough, she'll grab it.

This Nana edgehog, or "slip"-hog, is one of the fastest setups for covering multiple options for an opponent's recovery. You can even slip-hog and have Popo regrab the ledge after Nana gets up to wait out stalled recoveries like Marth with his Side-B stall.

Anyhow, here's a gif illustrating how the slip-hog can be used to edge-guard multiple options.

Link in case gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/SeveralDelayedAlaskanmalamute

Notes: I am a buster and messed up the slip-hog on the Bair edgeguard, too lazy to remake the gfy ATM =[
You can ledgedash with Popo and cover options that way, FJ Bair platform recovery, grab or D-smash onstage recovery.
If you use slip-hog to regrab the ledge and beat out a stalling, recovering opponent, take note of port priority as it can come into play here.

 

[tauKhan]

By WDing offstage in shield, both climbers are forced to grab the ledge, or tumble. Nana is unable to do her usual DJ back onstage due to the tumble, so if Popo lets go of the ledge fast enough, she'll grab it.

It's actually missfoot that prevents jumping there. When you slide off an edge in shield backwards, you'll enter 2x frame (not sure exactly how long, I've heard both x=5 and x=6) inactionable animation named missfoot. You'll go into tumble only after the missfoot.

I bring this point up mostly because I think it's useful to know that tumble is in fact actionable state that only prevents airdodging.

The idea to use that for edge hogging sounds neat though.

 

[TheRealFluid]

Can someone help me by analyzing my recent matches against Vro (Marth)?

Part 1: https://youtu.be/ntGKB_U8NdI?t=10m14s
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMv4SmturbQ&index=4&list=PLZYwT5p1eSfFQUSk8xf1tCi3SJNEBmn9R

I felt that I used roll in as an approach way too often and he caught on. However, I couldn't find a good solution to his aerial+downtilt mixups.

After the match, he told me that I should mixup aerial approaches (short hop f-air in my mind) and other such things.

Any help would be appreciated

 

[SHIP]

Can someone help me by analyzing my recent matches against Vro (Marth)?

Part 1: https://youtu.be/ntGKB_U8NdI?t=10m14s
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMv4SmturbQ&index=4&list=PLZYwT5p1eSfFQUSk8xf1tCi3SJNEBmn9R

I felt that I used roll in as an approach way too often and he caught on. However, I couldn't find a good solution to his aerial+downtilt mixups.

After the match, he told me that I should mixup aerial approaches (short hop f-air in my mind) and other such things.

Any help would be appreciated

I feel like Ice climbers have two ranges in which they want to be against marth. The first is stood right next to him so he's in range of our tiny little arms and the second is a little further away than the maximum length of the sword so that we can get a blizzard out uninterrupted. You seem eager to retreat into the second distance but don't make much use of dash dance blizzard or ice blocks.
Similarly your opponent repeatedly corners himself at the ledge when you have invulnerability but you don't press your advantage and instead stay in the center and wait for your opponent to get back on stage. When the opponent is at the ledge I think a good thing to do is blizzard so that it stops your opponent from getting up (slightly inside the center of the side platforms on fountain tends to be a good place to cover from) while leaving popo free to cover other options/shoot ice blocks to harrass them at the ledge. As sopo because you don't have the option of blizzarding you were trying to fsmash the ledge which is ineffective against anyone who is good at sweet spotting. Instead of this you could space autocancelled bair near the ledge to stop him from getting up.
There were many times that the marth did things that could be punished out of shield for example when he fsmashes your shield you can wavedash out of shield and grab and when he fairs your shield while trying to jump into you you can often shieldgrab.

 

[Wooltar]

Any tips on the marth ICs match up?

 

[LDSenpai]

I can't keep a tempo for wobbling at all, I am almost at the point of giving up... any tips. ICs are my best characters, I just can't keep the tempo, I normally drop it around 40%.

 

[OddishGuy]

I can't keep a tempo for wobbling at all, I am almost at the point of giving up... any tips. ICs are my best characters, I just can't keep the tempo, I normally drop it around 40%.

You could try learning it visually. I go by the spacing of the front feet. Nana's heel should be right at the front of Popo's foot for 190 BPM wobbling.
I've heard other ICs say they just watch when the hit connects. So as soon as Nana's tilt hits, press A for the pummel, when the headbutt hits, hit A for the tilt and so on. Like reactionary wobbling.

You could also go with the practice makes perfect method and just grind that out with a 190 BPM metronome. I've been using the visual wobbling for a while now, but since I complete all my wobbles since I've started doing that, I know the timing well enough to start with D-tilt wobbles if I need to. I'd assume just raw practice would get you to the point of consistent wobbles.

 

[Bones0]

I can't keep a tempo for wobbling at all, I am almost at the point of giving up... any tips. ICs are my best characters, I just can't keep the tempo, I normally drop it around 40%.

Practice while listening to a metronome or music with the right tempo (I've used this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFFaRKGKVcA). After doing that for a while, switch to no metronome and simply listen to the game sounds. Then turn off the game sounds and do it deaf. This will make you focus a little more on the tempo with each change. If you lose the tempo, go back to the metronome and start the cycle over again.

The human brain is basically a ****ing supercomputer, so don't get emotional and say stuff like you can't do it. You obviously can, and negative thoughts are only going to mess with your focus. Consistently practice to grind out the muscle memory and focus on the animations so you become accustomed to what a correct wobble looks like.

 

[941]

Kind of a noob question, but how exactly do I input a D-throw > D-air > reverse grab? I can do the basic D-throw D-air grab fairly consistently, but I don't really know how to do it so my opponent ends up behind me so I can turn around and regrab.

 

[Makoto-Y&Y]

Kind of a noob question, but how exactly do I input a D-throw > D-air > reverse grab? I can do the basic D-throw D-air grab fairly consistently, but I don't really know how to do it so my opponent ends up behind me so I can turn around and regrab.

Reversed Dthrow>Dair can be escaped with DI. The only characters it's guaranteed on are Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. (As far as I know.) Focus on moving nana forward before or during the dair, preferably before Popo is done throwing the opponent so you throw them right into the dair

 

[ilysm]

Question: is the optimal DI in any way different for d-throw -> full hop dair as opposed to t-throw short hop dair as opposed to d-throw -> full hop reverse dair? Is it in any way a mixup or is the optimal DI the same for all of them?