Social General Ice Climber Chat

[smasherslv]

Thanks for the tips, actualy I need more consistency with dthrow >dair, I can do that I miss the timing, i need consistency, so I can do hand-offs on some characters (ganon, captain, peach, sheik)

 

[OddishGuy]

Hey climbers! Let's talk about landing desync shenanigans.

So for those of you who don't know, landing desyncs are used to get a Popo dash or jump after landing from an empty hop. There might be other stuff that can be done, but dash and hop are the two I'll focus on today.

http://gfycat.com/RecentLittleBarasingha
Here's a quick gfy showing off landing desync. As you can see, you can use that desync'd dash like a dash dance desync to get a Nana blizzard, super useful.

But hopping around isn't the safest thing, so we probably shouldn't use this much right?

Well there's hope yet for the young desync!
Do you know what the difference between empty hop landing and landing with an auto cancel is? (Practically) NOTHING! We're ICs, we use AC's all the time, so this landing desync can be applied all over the place!

This desync isn't the fastest or flashiest, but the benefit is that it can be used essentially out of nowhere. A lot of other desyncs require easy to see setups, but with the landing desync we can desync at times the opponent can't really predict.

Imagine using a SHAC Upair in neutral, but WHOA! What's this?! All of a sudden you get a desync'd iceblock to chase for a grab opportunity!

Link in case gfy doesn't load: https://gfycat.com/BrilliantWebbedBarasinga

Using a defensive SHAC Bair? Why not desync that to get twice as many Bairs out?! Spectacular!

Link in case gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/HelplessNextAmericanwigeon

Welp, that's my spiel on landing desync stuff. I think this thing is super useful, basically a DD desync from any auto cancel :D

Some notes: Nana gets confused when you turn around, so doing something like SHAC Bair to dash back Nana blizzard doesn't really seem to work.
The window for this is pretty tight, around 2 frames. This means that you can't desync into full hop, since you'd have to hold X/Y for more than 2 frames, the desync would fail and Nana would follow you.

BONUS GFY: Thanks for reading, here's a landing desync to Popo boost grab Nana F-smash (this desync is nuts guys).
https://gfycat.com/BlindCircularGazelle

 

[BIGHOTSLAMJAM]

If anyone would like to be added to the new and revived Ice Climbers Skype Chat, please send me a friend request: jrossbox
or, you can reply to the thread and I'll be sure to add you ASAP!

 

[S2rulL]

Hey climbers! Let's talk about landing desync shenanigans.

So for those of you who don't know, landing desyncs are used to get a Popo dash or jump after landing from an empty hop. There might be other stuff that can be done, but dash and hop are the two I'll focus on today.

http://gfycat.com/RecentLittleBarasingha
Here's a quick gfy showing off landing desync. As you can see, you can use that desync'd dash like a dash dance desync to get a Nana blizzard, super useful.

But hopping around isn't the safest thing, so we probably shouldn't use this much right?

Well there's hope yet for the young desync!
Do you know what the difference between empty hop landing and landing with an auto cancel is? (Practically) NOTHING! We're ICs, we use AC's all the time, so this landing desync can be applied all over the place!

This desync isn't the fastest or flashiest, but the benefit is that it can be used essentially out of nowhere. A lot of other desyncs require easy to see setups, but with the landing desync we can desync at times the opponent can't really predict.

Imagine using a SHAC Upair in neutral, but WHOA! What's this?! All of a sudden you get a desync'd iceblock to chase for a grab opportunity!

Link in case gfy doesn't load: https://gfycat.com/BrilliantWebbedBarasinga

Using a defensive SHAC Bair? Why not desync that to get twice as many Bairs out?! Spectacular!

Link in case gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/HelplessNextAmericanwigeon

Welp, that's my spiel on landing desync stuff. I think this thing is super useful, basically a DD desync from any auto cancel :D

Some notes: Nana gets confused when you turn around, so doing something like SHAC Bair to dash back Nana blizzard doesn't really seem to work.
The window for this is pretty tight, around 2 frames. This means that you can't desync into full hop, since you'd have to hold X/Y for more than 2 frames, the desync would fail and Nana would follow you.

BONUS GFY: Thanks for reading, here's a landing desync to Popo boost grab Nana F-smash (this desync is nuts guys).
https://gfycat.com/BlindCircularGazelle

this is actually super interesting, potential for a landing lag desync into nana aerial blizzard?

 

[941]

I'm trying to get better at the Luigi MU, and was wondering if anyone has any good sets to watch or any advice that could help me. I have a general idea of how to play the MU, but any help would be appreciated.

 

[SHIP]

I'm trying to get better at the Luigi MU, and was wondering if anyone has any good sets to watch or any advice that could help me. I have a general idea of how to play the MU, but any help would be appreciated.

I feel like the IC luigi matchup is real good for us. If we can put out a blizzard luigi can't wavedash at us and he can't approach in the air because of his slow aerial movement. That said if he gets close he can hurt us pretty bad as nana is an idiot.
You really want to rely upon the disjointed nature of your moves vs luigi to stop his absurd priority from ruining your day. Bair, Fair and Uair are all really strong because of their enormous hitboxes that won't trade for Luigi's nair. Fair is actually shockingly good in this matchup because it outranges pretty much all of Luigi's moves if spaced well, it is also safe on shield because of his low traction.
Unfortunately Ice climbers kinda have trouble comboing luigi out of throws (especially with sopo) but if you can bait out a nair you can punish it pretty well.
For matches to watch just look up some of the many Vist vs Nintendude games from Smash @ Xanadu.

 

[Smasher89]

I'm trying to get better at the Luigi MU, and was wondering if anyone has any good sets to watch or any advice that could help me. I have a general idea of how to play the MU, but any help would be appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_DUWw5C2ss
Luigi has terrible airmobility, so standing far away and blizzard and hes reduced to just be able to down b, which can be shielded and punished.
The goal is to not get hit by the dair since it's his strongest pressuretool, and since hes got bad airmobility going away and blizzard covers a ton of his approaches.

 

[S2rulL]

good luck to @Nintendude at G3! first ICs to make top8 at a major (excluding Forte 3, which i'm counting as a large regional) since Evo (if my memory serves me correctly, i could be horribly wrong)

 

[Wooble]

It's too bad that nintendudes set versus the hbox and Mango were relatively uncompetitive. Not throwing SHADE but us icies need to find a way to beat these players because Mango hbox and armada all seem like 100-0 match ups

Now before anyone brings it up yes wobbles beat Mango and hbox at Evo 2013 but that was Evo 2013 , over two years ago now

Yes nintendude took Mango to game 5 at tbh5 but we need to be look to beat these players at their peak

Yes chudat ran it close at Evo but again Evo '15 Mango was a slopfest

Wanna know what you guys think about this

 

[peeup]

Hey all! I'm trying to get back into comp melee and ICs have always been my go to, anything I should know about social groups for ICs mains? I know there's a skype group, any way I could get into that? I'm also looking to get netplay up and running in the next week or so, is there like a chatroom/hub for ICs folk?

p.s. OddishGuy how do you do those desyncs? Do you have to fastfall the aerials or what?

 

[S2rulL]

It's too bad that nintendudes set versus the hbox and Mango were relatively uncompetitive. Not throwing SHADE but us icies need to find a way to beat these players because Mango hbox and armada all seem like 100-0 match ups

Now before anyone brings it up yes wobbles beat Mango and hbox at Evo 2013 but that was Evo 2013 , over two years ago now

Yes nintendude took Mango to game 5 at tbh5 but we need to be look to beat these players at their peak

Yes chudat ran it close at Evo but again Evo '15 Mango was a slopfest

Wanna know what you guys think about this

frankly, mango & hbox are just better players who know how to make the matchup favourable. tbh, ICs have so many flaws that the only reason TOs allow wobbling is because we basically get butt-****ed without it. saying we need to "step it up" is pretty stupid cus those matchups are difficult already and if you have two top level players in which one is better than the other then it's almost a guarantee that if they're playing well it's a win. that sounds pessimistic but it's realistic.

 

[OddishGuy]

Hey all! I'm trying to get back into comp melee and ICs have always been my go to, anything I should know about social groups for ICs mains? I know there's a skype group, any way I could get into that? I'm also looking to get netplay up and running in the next week or so, is there like a chatroom/hub for ICs folk?

p.s. OddishGuy how do you do those desyncs? Do you have to fastfall the aerials or what?

The landing desync is done by dashing or jumping really soon after landing (landing from an auto-cancel or empty-hop/tomahawk), while Nana is still in landing lag. The idea is pretty simple, and the visual cue is just the landing animation, but the window is small (~2 frames) so it's decently hard to do. A fastfall is not required, but this can be done from a fastfall if you want.

EDIT: As for the Nintendude vs. Hbox/Mang0 thing, Mang0 is just crazy good and the matchup is pretty rough. I saw Nintendude do pretty much everything against Mang0 and there seemed to be nothing that consistently worked. Saying we need to level up is true, but it will always be true.

Against Hbox, I really don't know. Nintendude was talking about switching characters, and I can't blame him. I've heard some people call the Puff MU unwinnable, some say it's free $, most say 50/50. I think the MU is really unexplored, but that's not very meaningful when I'm not super invested in improving it. Hbox has been improving a lot and generally. He's not doing stupid stuff as often; most people get like 30% off of it but for us a bad pound could be a wobble, so I think we're just hurting the most from his improvement ATM.

 

[Wooble]

frankly, mango & hbox are just better players who know how to make the matchup favourable. tbh, ICs have so many flaws that the only reason TOs allow wobbling is because we basically get butt-****ed without it. saying we need to "step it up" is pretty stupid cus those matchups are difficult already and if you have two top level players in which one is better than the other then it's almost a guarantee that if they're playing well it's a win. that sounds pessimistic but it's realistic.

So if nintendude came up to you after his loss and asked what he should've done differently, there's just no response? Leffen made an incredible breakthrough into the top 5 last year through relentless optimization of his play and studying of his opponents namely armada. This is evidenced by how leffen abuses armada specific tactics to beat his peach but when he faces macd it's slightly different, arguably more even than it "should be".
Yeah these apurpose,icult matchups as I said they *seem* to be 100-0 but there's gotta be something to help make it at least 99-1 figuratively speaking. It's like just accepting that axe can't beat hbox after that performance at genesis, there's gotta be something to make it a little better, looking at his habits what situations are favourable. Yeah people like Mango and toph have mentioned that theoretically icies should not be as viable as they are but we can always continue to develop our character and that will always be true yes. I'm just trying to encourage that discussion, because learning new desynchs are cute and cool I love them but until were seeing them applied what's the point? Very rarely will I see a player like nintendude opt for something so flashy on purpose,
As for him switching, I don't blame him and encourage a strong secondary, but many players have failed to pick up strong secondaries and tend to fall back on their mains: hbox's ness and spacies, leffens marth, armadas fox in 2014, zhus sheik, westballz fox, pewpewu spacies the list goes on. These are the icies boards so we gotta focus on what icies can do if nintendude does decide on sticking with the matchup. Again I'm just trying to encourage discussion you've both made respectable valid points

 

[S2rulL]

So if nintendude came up to you after his loss and asked what he should've done differently, there's just no response? Leffen made an incredible breakthrough into the top 5 last year through relentless optimization of his play and studying of his opponents namely armada. This is evidenced by how leffen abuses armada specific tactics to beat his peach but when he faces macd it's slightly different, arguably more even than it "should be".
Yeah these apurpose,icult matchups as I said they *seem* to be 100-0 but there's gotta be something to help make it at least 99-1 figuratively speaking. It's like just accepting that axe can't beat hbox after that performance at genesis, there's gotta be something to make it a little better, looking at his habits what situations are favourable. Yeah people like Mango and toph have mentioned that theoretically icies should not be as viable as they are but we can always continue to develop our character and that will always be true yes. I'm just trying to encourage that discussion, because learning new desynchs are cute and cool I love them but until were seeing them applied what's the point? Very rarely will I see a player like nintendude opt for something so flashy on purpose,
As for him switching, I don't blame him and encourage a strong secondary, but many players have failed to pick up strong secondaries and tend to fall back on their mains: hbox's ness and spacies, leffens marth, armadas fox in 2014, zhus sheik, westballz fox, pewpewu spacies the list goes on. These are the icies boards so we gotta focus on what icies can do if nintendude does decide on sticking with the matchup. Again I'm just trying to encourage discussion you've both made respectable valid points

just bolded part of your post because wtf does that even mean lol. and of course there's always room for discussion but if we to even optimise the character fully, there's no chance of them being even half as viable as the rest of the top tier. technically speaking, the only top tier characters we theoretically shouldn't lose to are falco & sheik, and even then there are ways of making those matchups favourable for them. i understand what you mean but i think this is just a case of the character meta advancing too quickly. the same thing happened with ganon around ROM2 when Kage starting beating people, because he had an advanced understanding of what ganon's were SUPPOSED to be doing, but then the meta caught up and people realised that ganon ain't that great. i just think the same thing has happened with the ICs.

 

[xKobayashi]

Hey guys, so I was wondering if we could make like a separate thread or something as sort of a "Best of the general ice climber chat" thread. For example, every so often people (wobbles, oddish, fly, kyu puff etc) have these AMAZING posts with great new desynch/advanced tech, which are then followed by discussions, questions, and then eventually other topics (like matchup advice and general knowledge). Because of this, it is very easy for these important posts to be lost in the depths of the chat. For people like me who do not check the boards regularly it would be immensely helpful if there was just a stickied thread where particularly helpful posts could be posted (via quoting or copy paste) so they could all be in one place and uninterrupted. Would this be a good idea?

 

[Kyu Puff]

Hey guys, so I was wondering if we could make like a separate thread or something as sort of a "Best of the general ice climber chat" thread. For example, every so often people (wobbles, oddish, fly, kyu puff etc) have these AMAZING posts with great new desynch/advanced tech, which are then followed by discussions, questions, and then eventually other topics (like matchup advice and general knowledge). Because of this, it is very easy for these important posts to be lost in the depths of the chat. For people like me who do not check the boards regularly it would be immensely helpful if there was just a stickied thread where particularly helpful posts could be posted (via quoting or copy paste) so they could all be in one place and uninterrupted. Would this be a good idea?

We've discussed it before but nobody actually wants to do all that work. I also have had a thread in the works for a while which will cover the mechanics behind all of ICs advanced techniques but it was taking me a while to write up and I've been really busy lately.

 

[Wooble]

just bolded part of your post because wtf does that even mean lol. and of course there's always room for discussion but if we to even optimise the character fully, there's no chance of them being even half as viable as the rest of the top tier. technically speaking, the only top tier characters we theoretically shouldn't lose to are falco & sheik, and even then there are ways of making those matchups favourable for them. i understand what you mean but i think this is just a case of the character meta advancing too quickly. the same thing happened with ganon around ROM2 when Kage starting beating people, because he had an advanced understanding of what ganon's were SUPPOSED to be doing, but then the meta caught up and people realised that ganon ain't that great. i just think the same thing has happened with the ICs.

Honestly I don't even remember lmao, it was probably "are difficult". But yeah I see what you mean, its probably just a case of me wanting this character to more viable than they really are

 

[xKobayashi]

We've discussed it before but nobody actually wants to do all that work. I also have had a thread in the works for a while which will cover the mechanics behind all of ICs advanced techniques but it was taking me a while to write up and I've been really busy lately.

I feel like if we had like 10 people go through 25 pages each, and just highlight the important stuff then we could toss it in a thread. From there we it wouldn't be too hard to update it as more stuff surfaces I would think,

 

[Garrett Robinson]

Does taunting at the end of stock prevent Nana from taunting later?

 

[OddishGuy]

Does taunting at the end of stock prevent Nana from taunting later?

It prevents you from making friends

Taunting at the end of a stock taken seems to prevent Nana from taunting, even if only Sopo taunts. It seems Nana has a counter of stocks taken vs. taunts and if the taunts are < stocks taken she taunts.

But I'm inclined to believe that the taunt counter is never greater than stocks taken, only equal to. So if you start the match, taunt 4 times, but haven't taken any stocks, the counter will be 0T/0K. If you take 1 stock and then taunt 3 times the counter will still only be 1T/1K, which still prevents Nana from taunting. If you get another kill and don't taunt, the counter will go to 1T/2K and Nana will want to taunt. Even though you taunted 3 times after the first KO, they don't carry over.

 

[TheRealFluid]

What's the frame data on jab -> grab when both Ice Climbers are in sync. More importantly, can certain characters react to the the second jab in any way before the grab connects i.e. fox cc shine, buffer spot dodge/roll, etc?

 

[IC-Rambler]

Just here to report a weird ass glitch that happened, reminiscent of the freeze glitch. No footage, but I'm just recalling it happening a second ago. I was playing a lvl 9 marth on FoD and he grabbed Nana near the ledge, kinda under the side of the right platform. I solo-squalled while Marth was pummeling Nana and Marth froze. I squalled into Marth but got hit by what seemed to be a frozen hitbox of Marth's pummel. I tech-rolled to center stage and waited. Nana broke out of the grab and Marth unfroze.

Anyone experience similar glitches?

 

[Kyu Puff]

It prevents you from making friends

Taunting at the end of a stock taken seems to prevent Nana from taunting, even if only Sopo taunts. It seems Nana has a counter of stocks taken vs. taunts and if the taunts are < stocks taken she taunts.

But I'm inclined to believe that the taunt counter is never greater than stocks taken, only equal to. So if you start the match, taunt 4 times, but haven't taken any stocks, the counter will be 0T/0K. If you take 1 stock and then taunt 3 times the counter will still only be 1T/1K, which still prevents Nana from taunting. If you get another kill and don't taunt, the counter will go to 1T/2K and Nana will want to taunt. Even though you taunted 3 times after the first KO, they don't carry over.

Pretty sure this is false. Dizzkidboogie told me the same thing, but I tested it in front of him and showed that Nana would taunt even if you taunted after every kill.

I have a thread explaining when and why Nana taunts; she'll do it at the beginning of every stock if you've gotten at least 1 KO that game. The only way to prevent it is to prevent her from becoming a CPU.

 

[TheRealFluid]

Just here to report a weird *** glitch that happened, reminiscent of the freeze glitch. No footage, but I'm just recalling it happening a second ago. I was playing a lvl 9 marth on FoD and he grabbed Nana near the ledge, kinda under the side of the right platform. I solo-squalled while Marth was pummeling Nana and Marth froze. I squalled into Marth but got hit by what seemed to be a frozen hitbox of Marth's pummel. I tech-rolled to center stage and waited. Nana broke out of the grab and Marth unfroze.

Anyone experience similar glitches?

Funnily enough, this exact same glitch happened at Bar Wars 2 with Nintendude vs G-Regulate

https://youtu.be/Xe_BroK8C1M?t=6m22s

 

[OddishGuy]

Pretty sure this is false. Dizzkidboogie told me the same thing, but I tested it in front of him and showed that Nana would taunt even if you taunted after every kill.

I have a thread explaining when and why Nana taunts; she'll do it at the beginning of every stock if you've gotten at least 1 KO that game. The only way to prevent it is to prevent her from becoming a CPU.

Did you taunt after the enemy died from the blast? For example, if you KO someone off the side but input taunt before they actually explode I don't think it counts. Probably the same for star KOs. This is all pretty unscientific, but yeah, from my testing it seems to work. I guess I'll try it some more tomorrow.

What's the frame data on jab -> grab when both Ice Climbers are in sync. More importantly, can certain characters react to the the second jab in any way before the grab connects i.e. fox cc shine, buffer spot dodge/roll, etc?

The grab comes out ~12 frames after Nana's jab. Players can just SDI to get away from the grab or CC the jabs in general. Chu showed us at EVO though that even good players like Mang0 can get caught by it, so it almost looks like a true combo sometimes.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Did you taunt after the enemy died from the blast? For example, if you KO someone off the side but input taunt before they actually explode I don't think it counts. Probably the same for star KOs. This is all pretty unscientific, but yeah, from my testing it seems to work. I guess I'll try it some more tomorrow.

Yes, I taunted multiple times after the KO. You have to understand what conditions under which Nana taunts at the beginning of the stock (i.e. how to intentionally force her into CPU mode), or else her taunting will be somewhat random and you might come to that conclusion due to random chance/false attributions.

 

[OddishGuy]

Yes, I taunted multiple times after the KO. You have to understand what conditions under which Nana taunts at the beginning of the stock (i.e. how to intentionally force her into CPU mode), or else her taunting will be somewhat random and you might come to that conclusion due to random chance/false attributions.

I'm going into teeter, which is a pretty fast and reliable way of making Nana go into "CPU mode."
I think this will end up being a really long "test" where I just taunt after every stock until it doesn't work, but after around 20 days I'll probably be confident in my answer. So far after actual testing yesterday and today it still holds true.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I'm going into teeter, which is a pretty fast and reliable way of making Nana go into "CPU mode."
I think this will end up being a really long "test" where I just taunt after every stock until it doesn't work, but after around 20 days I'll probably be confident in my answer. So far after actual testing yesterday and today it still holds true.

It's not reliable because you're inducing variable amounts of delay at the beginning of the stock before Nana goes into CPU mode. Her behavior might also be different when Popo is already on the ground next to her. I tested by having Nana fastfall (buffer drop from spawn platform) and Popo slowfall in front of her, which is the situation that most frequently causes Nana to taunt in game.

In your tests, are you able to reliably produce a Nana taunt in the situations where you think it should happen?

I'm failry confident in my theory because I can make Nana taunt at the beginning of the stock no matter how many times I've taunted that game 100% of the time. I can also make her not taunt 100% of the time, even if I haven't taunted at all.

 

[OddishGuy]

It's not reliable because you're inducing variable amounts of delay at the beginning of the stock before Nana goes into CPU mode. Her behavior might also be different when Popo is already on the ground next to her. I tested by having Nana fastfall (buffer drop from spawn platform) and Popo slowfall in front of her, which is the situation that most frequently causes Nana to taunt in game.

In your tests, are you able to reliably produce a Nana taunt in the situations where you think it should happen?

I'm failry confident in my theory because I can make Nana taunt at the beginning of the stock no matter how many times I've taunted that game 100% of the time. I can also make her not taunt 100% of the time, even if I haven't taunted at all.

Yeah, I can get the KO, not taunt, do whatever, go into teeter and she'll taunt, so I think it's reliable. AFAIK the time doesn't matter too much for our tests in particular; I don't think Nana forgets (or forgives V_V) unless it's been like 10s or something.

You should let me know the setup for getting Nana to taunt after respawn 100% of the time. Like, I understand the FF stuff and whatnot, but it doesn't seem to get Nana to taunt for me. We might have a 20XX iso issue if we're getting different results like this.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Yeah, I can get the KO, not taunt, do whatever, go into teeter and she'll taunt, so I think it's reliable. AFAIK the time doesn't matter too much for our tests in particular; I don't think Nana forgets (or forgives V_V) unless it's been like 10s or something.

You should let me know the setup for getting Nana to taunt after respawn 100% of the time. Like, I understand the FF stuff and whatnot, but it doesn't seem to get Nana to taunt for me. We might have a 20XX iso issue if we're getting different results like this.

On Battlefield, just hold forward until they drop from the respawn platform, then release shortly afterward (easiest to see for ports which respawn over the top platform).

 

[OddishGuy]

On Battlefield, just hold forward until they drop from the respawn platform, then release shortly afterward (easiest to see for ports which respawn over the top platform).

Yeah I was on FD so no top plat LOL. Appears to work every time though, dang.

It seems like there's a difference between respawn and other times to taunt. As in, whether or not you've taunted before determines if Nana will taunt later, but respawn is a completely different scenario.

That's alright though, because we know how to avoid taunt upon respawn, so if we taunt after a KO it should avoid any other random scenarios where Nana goes into CPU mode and taunts.

TBH I don't care about the respawn taunt since it can be avoided, but the kind of random taunts I'd like to do without, and taunting after KOs gets rid of them as far as I can tell. Before, I've been midcombo when Nana taunts... Partner, I need you to wobble =l

 

[Kyu Puff]

Yeah I was on FD so no top plat LOL. Appears to work every time though, dang.

It seems like there's a difference between respawn and other times to taunt. As in, whether or not you've taunted before determines if Nana will taunt later, but respawn is a completely different scenario.

That's alright though, because we know how to avoid taunt upon respawn, so if we taunt after a KO it should avoid any other random scenarios where Nana goes into CPU mode and taunts.

TBH I don't care about the respawn taunt since it can be avoided, but the kind of random taunts I'd like to do without, and taunting after KOs gets rid of them as far as I can tell. Before, I've been midcombo when Nana taunts... Partner, I need you to wobble =l

Nana never seems to taunt for me when I avoid it after respawn... I will try to test on FD with teeter to see if I can reproduce it.

 

[OddishGuy]

Nana never seems to taunt for me when I avoid it after respawn... I will try to test on FD with teeter to see if I can reproduce it.

But I'm not just talking about after respawn. If you get a KO and don't die, you still have that taunt loaded for if Nana gets knocked into CPU mode anytime soon.

 

[Kyu Puff]

But I'm not just talking about after respawn. If you get a KO and don't die, you still have that taunt loaded for if Nana gets knocked into CPU mode anytime soon.

I know what you mean, I just haven't observed that myself. I'm also doubting that there are separate timing thresholds for when Nana always taunts vs when she falls back on the "taunt counter" but we will see.

 

[OddishGuy]

PSA to anyone trying to do perfect wobbles (AKA Tomber wobbles): if you mess up and do a jab with Nana after the first pummel instead of a tilt, you can still get an inescapable wobble by performing a jab2 with Nana while Popo headbutts. Jab2 hits frame 5 (like 2 frame before Popo's headbutt will connect) But it has an IASA of 18(10 faster than an F-tilt), meaning you'll be able to tilt in time to keep the wobble inescapable with ~4 frame window.

So basically
sync'd grab
immediate Popo headbutt
Nana jab (oh no!)
Popo 2nd headbutt/Nana jab 2
Nana tilt
wobble.

This is also just a generally nice perfect wobble method, as jab comes out 2 frames faster than F-tilt so this can be done without buffering stuff. I'd recommend people learn this method, or get comfortable with the immediate F-tilt method/Tomber wobble. Lots of people are getting good at mashing, so rather than relying on other CG's, figuring out grab release gimmicks, attempting to build damage for an easier wobble setup, or trying to move into handoff range, let's just learn to start a wobble faster.

 

[S2rulL]

PSA to anyone trying to do perfect wobbles (AKA Tomber wobbles): if you mess up and do a jab with Nana after the first pummel instead of a tilt, you can still get an inescapable wobble by performing a jab2 with Nana while Popo headbutts. Jab2 hits frame 5 (like 2 frame before Popo's headbutt will connect) But it has an IASA of 18(10 faster than an F-tilt), meaning you'll be able to tilt in time to keep the wobble inescapable with ~4 frame window.

So basically
sync'd grab
immediate Popo headbutt
Nana jab (oh no!)
Popo 2nd headbutt/Nana jab 2
Nana tilt
wobble.

This is also just a generally nice perfect wobble method, as jab comes out 2 frames faster than F-tilt so this can be done without buffering stuff. I'd recommend people learn this method, or get comfortable with the immediate F-tilt method/Tomber wobble. Lots of people are getting good at mashing, so rather than relying on other CG's, figuring out grab release gimmicks, attempting to build damage for an easier wobble setup, or trying to move into handoff range, let's just learn to start a wobble faster.

oddish forever with the knowledge

 

[xKobayashi]

What are you guys looking for in the neutral vs. captain falcon? I feel like most matchups i have a solid idea of how to punish approaches/movement, catch jumps with up air, or force these options using desynchs. But against falcon I really have no idea sometimes... I feel like desynchs and wavedash forward (to jab or something) are very poor in this matchup, and that any falcon who is competent at the matchup will not get caught by up-airs (due to his ridiculous horizontal air mobility), and I feel like wavedash back --> grab/jab/dd grab/f-tilt only works on very poor approaches. Any advice/tips on how you get your hits in this matchup?

 

[SHIP]

The thing about falcon is that he runs real fast but his moves come out pretty slow. The matchup is real bad when he has a full stage run up in which to fire up his moves and is far easier when you are close to him. He really wants to approach you in the air because his ground moves other than grab (which he kinda doesnt wanna do anyways) arent really effective. So you just need to get close to him and then try to provoke him into jumping at you (which is pretty easy because he wants to do that anyway) and then you can anti-air him with a move that comes out a little faster than his aerial.
Utilt, U air, Bair and to a certain extent Nair or even Usmash or Fsmash are effective for this and if you watch good ice climbers play the matchup its pretty much all they are doing.

Attacking falcon is kinda hard unless he is somewhat cornered but usually consists of wavedashing in and jabbing, grabbing, down smashing or shielding and waiting for him to freak out and do something you can punish.
The matchup often feels pretty unpleasant because you sorta have to wait for the falcon to run into a hit box.

 

[FROST :)]

I personally hate C.Falcon. Specially since it takes you so much to beat them when really they're only dash dancing and throwing random knees/ braindead knee setups

 

[941]

Yeah, Falcon can be pretty annoying when He has room to move around. I'd honestly rather play the MU on Yoshi's over FD most of the time purely to make it harder for Him to dash dance.