Social General Ice Climber Chat

[jaseroque]

What are the inputs that Fly does here (9:45) to make Nana full jump and blizzard in the same direction as Popo? Every time I try it's a synced blizzard or she blizzards in the other direction. https://youtu.be/35imoL6mKP4?list=PLobH7fd55KOiMolO_q5gPHFo3YypK2E0i&t=581

 

[941]

I'll take a shot at this one: After Nana is doing the initial blizzard, do a short hop and blizzard with Popo, and then you can input a full jump and blizzard with Nana. The timing on this is very difficult though, I was able to recreate it with the frame advance in 20XX, but after that it took a lot of attempts before I could get it once in real time. You have to get the blizzard out really fast after the short hop, and then You need to be fast enough with the full jump that Nana gets enough height to avoid teleporting and doing a synced blizzard. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if both actions need to be frame perfect.

 

[S2rulL]

in terms of matchups, i struggle way more vs ganon than with falcon. i know it's cus ganon is a hard counter to our lil inuits but jfc at least i can deal with falcon, but i don't feel like i can even approach ganon and if i stay on the defensive for too long, i just screwed up by fair. fkn ganon

 

[xKobayashi]

jaseroque Fly has something about the synched forward blizzard in this thread somewhere but it certainly isn't frame perfect. I think why it works is that nana will not automatically blizzard until both she and popo are synched on the ground and popo is already doing blizzard, so if you time it it such that nana is both synched and actionable, and popo is in the air while doing blizzard then you can input nana to do whatever, including full hop blizzard.

What I normally do is desych nana normally to do a blizzard, then wait right before her blizzard ends I short hop in place with popo and blizzard, then right before popo lands input the full hop blizzard for nana

S2rulL the key to fighting ganon is just camping him out with desynchs, never wavedashing forward into him, up airing him each time he decides to go to a platform. I don't think ganon has the tools to approach around blizzard and up-air if you use them correctly. Also you can just light shield any of his arial pressure to get out of, just try to hold center stage with projectiles

 

[smasherslv]

This is my first video of my Ices, I would like to read your opinions, tips and comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDfaRYFxEg0

 

[Smasher89]

Ganon has most of his range in the air,meaning he has to jump, abuse that fact and that his aerials are slow, dont give him respect to start pressuring you.

 

[TrevR]

What stages are good for the ICs? I have no clue what is good for which matchups and what sucks for others. I'm told that FoD is generally a good pick, and FD can be good too. Can anyone enlighten me on IC stage strikes?

 

[941]

It's dependent on the match up, but FD, and FoD are usually good stages. Dream Land and Battle Field are both bigger stages with high top platforms, which can be difficult for ICs to deal with, and is why I usually strike both stages. Stadium is also good as it has no top platform, but the transformations aren't very favorable. There's nothing that's universally good or bad for ICs, so it mostly comes down to experience in knowing what is good against certain characters and play styles.

 

[jaseroque]

Would you ban FD vs. Samus? I feel like it's so hard to avoid missiles on that stage.

 

[941]

If the Samus is good and knows how to abuse FD against ICs then it might be worth banning, but a lot of Samus players think FD is bad for Samus against ICs, and if they don't missile camp FD can work in ICs favor. Game 5 of this set should tell You what can happen on FD against a good Samus, although I find it interesting that Duck opted not to counter pick to FD throughout the set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htmqHyMCeC0

 

[OddishGuy]

If the Samus knows how to SHFFMC, FD can be troublesome, but I still think it's one of the best stages for the MU. You can never reset to a platform to get a break from the missile onslaught. Duck wasn't even using SHFFMC and he was beating Dizz with those missiles quite well.

Once you get in on a Samus here there's not much they can do. WD back F-tilt and such is nice but they'll keep losing ground. If they ever up-B on this stage they risk getting wobbled, whereas on other stages they can often make it to a platform before we can get positioned to grab.

I think that platforms in general are better for Samus than ICs, but if you stink against missiles then the Samus's newly linearized game-plan will be hard to win against.

 

[TrevR]

Does anybody have the link to the post about how ICs shouldn't be using up-b OoS to get Nana onto the ledge? I forgot where I saw it, and I really need to learn what else I can do so that I can work on my edgeguarding. If anyone can link me or point me to it (or even tell me how else to get Nana onto the ledge), I'd really appreciate it.

 

[OddishGuy]

So this is super old, but I finally got around to learning ledge-canceled Up-B! I believe it's called the Nana Rocket :D

https://gfycat.com/ParallelInnocentAtlanticridleyturtle

Does anybody have the link to the post about how ICs shouldn't be using up-b OoS to get Nana onto the ledge? I forgot where I saw it, and I really need to learn what else I can do so that I can work on my edgeguarding. If anyone can link me or point me to it (or even tell me how else to get Nana onto the ledge), I'd really appreciate it.

Here's a good post on edge-guarding from Bomono3:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3eygr2/a_heartfelt_message_to_ice_climbers_mains/

He's moved away from SB and onto Reddit (come back, Bomono ;_;/), but I can answer most questions that you come up with after reading that post. Anyway, here's Up-B ledge info.

The Up-B desync can be used to get Nana to grab the ledge in many different ways.

You can simply Up-B desync -> drift to ledge
Up-B desync -> drift to ledge with Bair or Upair
Up-B desync -> drift back with Dair, Nana DJ ledge grab (do this setup to get a delayed ledgegrab)

Here's a gfy and stuff.

Link in case gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/JoyousQueasyBrontosaurus

In general, learning to slip-hog is better as it is a much faster setup and can be done from a sync'd wavedash. Simply WD back towards the ledge in shield, slip onto the ledge (you'll do a tumblywumbly), grab ledge, let go of the ledge soon after (~9 frames after grabbing ledge) and let Nana get onto the ledge. Ta-dah! She's on it now!

Here's a gfy showcase using the slip-hog method:
http://gfycat.com/UnsteadyPleasantAplomadofalcon

 

[TrevR]

Why does it seem like IC mains are a dying breed of individuals? I only know of one other person in my region who plays ICs, and I don't see why. Is it because of the hate that ICs sometimes get? Or is it because ICs are such a weird character? Maybe it's because they're not the best? I have no clue, and I don't see why there aren't more IC mains.

 

[ilysm]

TrevR Interesting question! I theorize part of it has to do with their tricky learning curve and unique skill set. It doesn't appeal to everyone. A small part of it may be the hate, but I get the feeling it's a very small part. I think it has a lot to do with Icies being the "best worst character in the game" (or at least that's a cute lil thing I'm a fan of saying). Their strengths are so undeniably powerful, but when set against a lot of the top-tiers (and maybe a few random mid-tiers) their weaknesses are so glaring and exploitable that it takes a really good player not to get bopped by proper counterplay. Not that they're bad by any means (they're very very good imo) but their polarizing attributes make them very difficult to play consistently and effectively.

 

[Smasher89]

Actually there are now more IC mains then there ever has been, a couple of years ago, you could basicly count all of us on 2 hands, something that is not the case anymore.

 

[941]

There are probably more mains of almost every character than ever before due to the growth of the competitive smash scene.

 

[TrevR]

How do you guys practice?
I like to practice tech skill on the legal stages, trying to work on my wavedashes/lands, and general movement. I also practice smacking CPUs around and converting it into a wobble or handoff or whatnot. I obviously practice handoffs too, and so far I've got Sheik, Peach, and Zelda down pretty damn well. I don't really practice de-syncs that aren't basic (spotdoge, dashdance, roll), since I feel like I won't be able to incorporate them into my game.
So yeah, how and what do you guys practice?

 

[S2rulL]

so which ICs am i meeting at BEAST then? S Smasher89 ? i know my homie @SHIP is going

 

[RyseEX]

Hey TrevR do you use the ftilt desync? it seems pretty important.

 

[TrevR]

Hey TrevR do you use the ftilt desync? it seems pretty important.

I sometimes use it, but rarely. In what situations is it useful?

 

[RyseEX]

TrevR I use it to punish wiffed moves because if you catch them off guard Nana will hit with blizzard for some followups. So you would be looking away from them wd to reverse ftilt then blizzard or something like that

 

[RyseEX]

Doing it while looking away from then will cause Nana to Blizzard towards them

 

[Smasher89]

so which ICs am i meeting at BEAST then? S Smasher89 ? i know my homie @SHIP is going

My bet youre going to meet Johnkorv, Fa0, Wobbles, alphadash, Bêst and Däumling. Sadly wont attend since i went to Dreamhack Winter and this event is rather expensive even though i live like 2h from the venue. I've spent almost less money on attending tournaments abroad compared to this one :/. Also ending the tournament like 12 pm (or what it will be) makes sure theres no way to travel home since the last trains from gothemburg leaves at 10pm.

 

[Garrett Robinson]

Last night at Xanadu MilkMan took 3 sets off two of the best ICs and only 1 month prior did he take a set off Wobbles. After looking at MilkMan's play I was wondering if the Fox MU is the worst MU for ICs. I believe it is.

 

[TrevR]

Last night at Xanadu MilkMan took 3 sets off two of the best ICs and only 1 month prior did he take a set off Wobbles. After looking at MilkMan's play I was wondering if the Fox MU is the worst MU for ICs. I believe it is.

I think it's the fact that he's got good experience against ICs that makes him so good. According to top players, Marth is generally the hardest MU at the top level.

 

[NTRN]

I have seen some clever ways of accommodating Nana's slide when you do a any sort of moving grab, waiting for her to slide back, start the tilt for a wobble, sometimes causing dash attack, or waiting too long and letting the opponent mash out, but I found something I haven't seen mentioned before.

With this technique, every grab from every synched movement becomes a synched standing grab, with the easy easy wobble timing, at the expense of maybe 3 frames.

I will refer to it as the shield stop grab. It is very simple. Dash-shield-grab. Nana and popo lock in place and you start the wobble. You can do it out of WD too, just WD, then dash out. I think optimally 1 frame dash, 1 frame shield, then grab starts. I dunno, I'm not a framedata guy.

Let me know if it is common knowledge.

 

[OddishGuy]

I dunno, I'm not a framedata guy.

Hey there, I'm a framedata guy ^_^/

I have seen some clever ways of accommodating Nana's slide when you do a any sort of moving grab, waiting for her to slide back, start the tilt for a wobble, sometimes causing dash attack, or waiting too long and letting the opponent mash out, but I found something I haven't seen mentioned before.

You can still get a perfect wobble, AKA "Tomber Wobble," out of a dash -> jump-cancel grab with a few different methods.

The most consistent is the Uptilt method: http://gfycat.com/AllNauticalArgali (credit to Kyu Puff)

The coolest (IMO) is the SH Nair method: https://gfycat.com/InferiorGratefulAuk
(This can also be done with Dair, dash Bair, Upair on some characters, and, although imperfect, Fair)
You can even mess up the Nair timing and get a wobble if you jab: http://gfycat.com/ThirstyAchingDwarfrabbit

The hardest seems to be the reverse F-tilt method, as can be seen by me not having a gfy for that ^_^' (that or I just don't know an easy method for it)

With this technique, every grab from every synched movement becomes a synched standing grab, with the easy easy wobble timing, at the expense of maybe 3 frames.

I will refer to it as the shield stop grab. It is very simple. Dash-shield-grab. Nana and popo lock in place and you start the wobble. You can do it out of WD too, just WD, then dash out. I think optimally 1 frame dash, 1 frame shield, then grab starts.

Shield grabs are pretty common and Tomber especially seemed to like them. They're not quite as useful due to the wobble setups from JC grab that were shown up above. The downside of shield grab is the extra wait. You have to dash, wait 3 frames, shield, then grab. So it's at least 3 extra frames compared to a JC grab. If you try to sheild too soon out of the dash you will roll. Out of run, shield grab is the exact same as JC grab as far as I can tell, so there's no disadvantage, but there never is an advantage so learning the JC method seams ideal.

Thanks for the good question/post though, got me practicing those dash -> JC grab wobble setups =]

 

[TrevR]

You can still get a perfect wobble, AKA "Tomber Wobble," out of a dash -> jump-cancel grab with a few different methods.

The most consistent is the Uptilt method: http://gfycat.com/AllNauticalArgali

Do you mean this is guaranteed? I've had issues with people breaking out because Nana needs to slide back before the wobble begins. Does this utilt method totally stop that from happening, giving me a guaranteed wobble as long as I don't mess up any inputs or the timing?

 

[OddishGuy]

Do you mean this is guaranteed? I've had issues with people breaking out because Nana needs to slide back before the wobble begins. Does this utilt method totally stop that from happening, giving me a guaranteed wobble as long as I don't mess up any inputs or the timing?

All of the methods I posted convert seamlessly/inescapably into regular forward-tilt wobbles. The inputs for Up-tilt are not hard, which is why it is the most consistent. Just hold down the A button and tilt the stick up after the first pummel, Nana will buffer an up-tilt so you don't even have to time it.

 

[RyseEX]

Wait so when I catch someone off guard with a blizzard into grab and Nana goes too far I should tomber wobble them. Also, could I use down tilt instead of ftilting

 

[OddishGuy]

Wait so when I catch someone off guard with a blizzard into grab and Nana goes too far I should tomber wobble them. Also, could I use down tilt instead of ftilting

If you grab an opponent while Nana is blizzarding then you don't have to worry about her sliding out of wobble range. You can headbutt near the end of the blizzard and proceed to wobble from there, it should basically be inescapable as soon as you get the grab, since the hitboxes from Nana's blizzard technically start the wobble. However, timing the headbutt and following tilt to start wobbling regularly is a bit tricky, but certainly feasible.

And yes, in most instances you can D-tilt instead of F-tilt. F-tilt comes out 2 frames faster, but that usually does not make or break a wobble initiation. I would recommend F-tilting though, as the F-tilt wobble has more leniency on its timing in general and racks up damage faster. The benefits of D-tilt wobbling are that it unstales F-tilt, can help you time opponents, and can be used on edges without worry of Nana falling off. It's certainly beneficial, but for consistency I'd recommend the F-tilt wobbling (maybe switch from F-tilts to D-tilts right before finishing a wobble to get F-tilt unstaled).

 

[OddishGuy]

Hey Climbers, let's talk about L-cancel desync applications!

Now this desync is pretty old, and there's some discussion and info it from a while back [http://smashboards.com/threads/general-ice-climber-chat.117419/page-234#post-19130465]. The gist of it is that if you use SH Fair, you have a 2 frame window to pull off an L-cancel desync. This is the most consistent method and it's the main method I use whenever going for the desync.

The applications of this deync are somewhat different due to the fact that Popo is actionable first, rather than the usual Nana buffer taking the leading option. It doesn't seem like a huge difference but it really opens up some possibilities, as well as adding complexity to reach certain results.

Firstly, this desync allows Popo to get a dash, which allows for Nana Blizzards and iceblocks. This is essentially a DD desync without the DD.
This is illustrated by this sequence which leads off with a Dash -> blizzard.

Link in case gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/UnconsciousFriendlyCorydorascatfish

A creative use for the desync is a quick extender desync setup. [An extender desync is a setup which results in one climber running while the other walks. Read more here http://smashboards.com/threads/desy...w-aka-positional-desync.395896/#post-18812498.] I use the L-cancel desync to have Popo jab while Nana starts running, Popo then starts to walk creating an extended desync. I use an F-tilt from the desync in this example.
http://gfycat.com/BrightDishonestKiskadee
This would likely be decent against DDing. The F-tilt can protect you from dash attacks and SH aerials while Nana's dash attack can interrupt their DD or force them to retreat.

You can honestly have Popo do numerous things, you have 10 frames of freedom. You can get a Dash-> JC Upsmash for example. I tried an interesting approach by having Popo do a solo wavedash. This reverses the situation and gives Nana a 10 frame window while Popo is in WD lag.

Link in case gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/PitifulFakeHornedviper

This is just a general post to show off some of the creative uses of L-cancel desyncing. This desync is versatile and consistent. Hopefully we can get some more experimentation with it and see more of it's application and situational usefulness. Thanks for reading ^_^/

 

[RyseEX]

Thanks for teaching me this desync I'm new to icies and am trying to learn as much as possible as fast as possible

 

[RyseEX]

If you grab an opponent while Nana is blizzarding then you don't have to worry about her sliding out of wobble range. You can headbutt near the end of the blizzard and proceed to wobble from there, it should basically be inescapable as soon as you get the grab, since the hitboxes from Nana's blizzard technically start the wobble. However, timing the headbutt and following tilt to start wobbling regularly is a bit tricky, but certainly feasible.

And yes, in most instances you can D-tilt instead of F-tilt. F-tilt comes out 2 frames faster, but that usually does not make or break a wobble initiation. I would recommend F-tilting though, as the F-tilt wobble has more leniency on its timing in general and racks up damage faster. The benefits of D-tilt wobbling are that it unstales F-tilt, can help you time opponents, and can be used on edges without worry of Nana falling off. It's certainly beneficial, but for consistency I'd recommend the F-tilt wobbling (maybe switch from F-tilts to D-tilts right before finishing a wobble to get F-tilt unstaled).

The reason I use dtilt is to put my opponent on tilt so they make more mistakes

I know it's mean but it's true

 

[fatman.spam]

What is the best way to train with ICs?

 

[TrevR]

Yesterday at a local I was in winners finals for amateur bracket (lol) against my homie who I play against a lot. He plays Marth. During our match, it seemed like I was wavedashing into his fsmashes, and I would roll and he'd then wavedash back and fsmash me again. I realize this is partially because I suck, but I also believe it's because I don't feel like I have control over these characters. When I played Fox I could control myself very well, but with ICs it feels like I can't control them. Have any of you guys had this issue? How do you gain control over these characters?

 

[ilysm]

I'm just throwing this out there, but I think that a lot of Ice Climbers players (myself included) wavedash into people too much. Against Marth you should probably wavedash into him to punish a laggy move, or after one fair on shield if you think he'll do another, or to intercept a movement option you have a read on. Wavedash in as an approach should be used carefully. If you can time it right, try wavedashing into shield, and then wavedashing again oos to punish the fsmash.

 

[TrevR]

I'm just throwing this out there, but I think that a lot of Ice Climbers players (myself included) wavedash into people too much. Against Marth you should probably wavedash into him to punish a laggy move, or after one fair on shield if you think he'll do another, or to intercept a movement option you have a read on. Wavedash in as an approach should be used carefully. If you can time it right, try wavedashing into shield, and then wavedashing again oos to punish the fsmash.

I was thinking about that. I guess that I do try an wd into him without much defense. How would I normally approach Marth though? Ice blocks? Blizzard? Maybe just bait him?

 

[ilysm]

I use baits and run up -> shield and lots of patience. Occasionally quick desyncs into blizzard can beat out Marth dtilt. I haven't tried Nanapult to get in from a distance; it seems like the sort of thing that could either be pretty good or very very bad.