Vanitas
Smash Ace
You probably have to use a 20xx setup. Making the Ice Climbers player burn their invincibility by making them lose their Nana by double jumping off takes away a very big part of Melee.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
link7
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2013
- Messages
- 1,081
- Location
- Steilacoom, Washington
- NNID
- Kidlink77
- 3DS FC
- 2234-7140-8163
I'm not sure how many people will be bringing 20XX setups, and I'm not a huge fan of 20XX to begin with (it freezes to often for me). So would it be better to just nix Sopo completely in this case?
Btw, I love watching you and Saus play sets together!
941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
Someone who chooses to play Sopo would know that they are forced to burn their invincibility going in, so I don't see that as being a big deal. As for whether or not Sopo is too good to play in a low tier tournament, I think He is if characters like Young Link and DK are allowed.
Vanitas
Smash Ace
Agreed, 20xx setups are strange. I suppose people can choose to forfeit Nana and forfeit their invincibility haha.
Awesome! :D I feel like me and SAUS are always pushing new things in that matchup. Glad to hear someone actually enjoys our long and calculated sets haha
LDSenpai
Self loathing ICs Player
For solo practice I kind of like having a practice routine, what routine would you suggest for ICs? I had one when I first started playing Melee with Marth which helped a lot.
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
Random information dump.
Sopo Recovery Up-B vs. Air-dodge
If you're Sopo and you don't want to die, you have to recover from time to time. But what has more vertical potential to reach that ledge? The air-dodge certainly moves you higher up, but the Up-B grabs the ledge faster.
The answer is Up-B. The difference is 2 falling frames (not FFing). So if just miss with air-dodge, you probably would have gotten it with an Up-B. The reason is Popo's magnet hands, he grabs the ledge with up-B from a bit lower than one would expect, it actually looks kind of weird, haha. Up-B is nice because you can sweet-spot too as well as reach the ledge from slightly further away horizontally I believe (at least compared to a straight upwards air-dodge).
DJAC Dair
Wobbles talked a bit about using auto-cancel down airs. The window on FJ AC Dair is 1 frame short, so it is impossible. However, with a double jump, even if almost immediate, ACing the Dair becomes possible. The execution for this is to DJ immediate Dair after waiting 2 frames from a FH, or 4 frames for a SH.
So it looks like
0 jump squat (holding jump button)
1 jump squat (holding jump button)
2 jump squat (holding jump button)
3 Airborne (do nothing)
4 Airborne (do nothing)
5 Double jump (jump button)
6 Dair
7+ don't FF or you will miss the AC
For a SH you would release the jump button before frame 2 and initiate the DJ frame 7 and Dair on frame 8. Using the SH->DJ is strictly worse than FH->DJ.
Sopo Recovery Up-B vs. Air-dodge
If you're Sopo and you don't want to die, you have to recover from time to time. But what has more vertical potential to reach that ledge? The air-dodge certainly moves you higher up, but the Up-B grabs the ledge faster.
The answer is Up-B. The difference is 2 falling frames (not FFing). So if just miss with air-dodge, you probably would have gotten it with an Up-B. The reason is Popo's magnet hands, he grabs the ledge with up-B from a bit lower than one would expect, it actually looks kind of weird, haha. Up-B is nice because you can sweet-spot too as well as reach the ledge from slightly further away horizontally I believe (at least compared to a straight upwards air-dodge).
DJAC Dair
Wobbles talked a bit about using auto-cancel down airs. The window on FJ AC Dair is 1 frame short, so it is impossible. However, with a double jump, even if almost immediate, ACing the Dair becomes possible. The execution for this is to DJ immediate Dair after waiting 2 frames from a FH, or 4 frames for a SH.
So it looks like
0 jump squat (holding jump button)
1 jump squat (holding jump button)
2 jump squat (holding jump button)
3 Airborne (do nothing)
4 Airborne (do nothing)
5 Double jump (jump button)
6 Dair
7+ don't FF or you will miss the AC
For a SH you would release the jump button before frame 2 and initiate the DJ frame 7 and Dair on frame 8. Using the SH->DJ is strictly worse than FH->DJ.
3 frame window, but if you shield DI it is EZPZ to grab. Squall probably clanks with raptor boost, but squall is very risky to throw out in this MU so I would advise against it.
Last edited:
Archelon
Smash Journeyman
Do you know about how up tilt interacts with side-b?
jaseroque
Smash Rookie
What's good in the DK matchup?
941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
What isn't? DK has a few gimmicks that He can use to catch You off-guard, but if You play the matchup right and abuse DKs glaring weaknesses it should be pretty free. DK has a hard time dealing with projectiles, so ice blocks and blizzards are good for keeping Him out. He is also really big and easy to combo, so D-throw D-air works really well and He can also be D-throw chain grabbed by Sopo at some percents. It can be hard to get out of DKs U-air juggles, so try to avoid being directly above Him, and watch out for His deceptively good B-air and ground speed. Basically just be patient and pick Your openings wisely and DK shouldn't be much of a threat.
Blue2ez
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2014
- Messages
- 35
Today I played in a tournament in which I lost to a c.falcon and a peach. My biggest problem vs the falcon was that I couldn't deal with his cross up stomps. I felt like when I didn't try to catch them with up-air or up smash I let the falcon off scott free, but when I did try to catch them the falcon could just dj over and end up punishing me. Are there any better alternatives to punishing cross up knee? Help me out IC brothers.
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
There are only ~10 frames of vulnerabilty when doing quick, repeated SHAC Upairs. If you think his DJ stomp will hit you in those 10 frames, you can instead go for a DD after landing from the SHAC Upair and get a grab. Nana will probably get hit, but if you get two or so tech chase grabs Nana may catch up to you to start the wobble.
The high risk high reward move is Upsmash. I love Up-smash, but I wouldn't recommend using it unless you have a good read. Up-tilt is pretty good and can often lead to grab if the opponent doesn't reactively SDI in time.
You can also watch sets with Fly to see how he uses WD->Fsmash to catch the Falcon before their aerials come out. This is more for SHFFL's rather than stomp pressure. High risk high reward and all that.
Blue2ez
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2014
- Messages
- 35
Oh true, that DD after AC U-air sounds like a really good idea. Thanks :D
Last edited:
Cervidae
Smash Apprentice
Anyone mess around with f-throw -> dash attack? It seemed kinda dumb when I was thinking about it, but I notice a lot of people hold away after getting thrown by ICs. This can let Nana hit fast fallers with a dash attack, and depending on the timing, can send the opponent away (kinda pointless), straight up (pretty good), and back towards you (looks cool, but really only useful for messing around). At lower percents, the timing is more strict on the dash attack to get a good angle since the thrown character doesn't travel very far, making the window to get a good hit fairly tight, but if the opponent holds away, the window gets a little bit larger.
I figured that the only practical use of this would be off a low percent (0%ish) dash grab against Falco or Falcon (since up-throw follow ups are probably more consistent on Fox) or as a mixup against opponents who hold away off of being thrown. I think some of the better follow ups off of this would be to wave dash in and regrab if the opponent is sent straight up, especially if this puts you in range to perform the chain grab at the ledge. If they are sent towards you it's possible to regrab, but there aren't many follow ups that occur after that since Nana is pretty far away. I guess just smash attacking them would be pretty okay.
Here's a really crappy video of me doing this a few times so you don't just have to visualize what I'm talking about : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXjISjW5WhM
I've only messed around with this for a few minutes today, so it might be totally pointless/bad to go for this, but I figured it might be worth experimenting with, especially for the more "adventurous" ICs. I'm sure this works at lower percents, but I haven't really checked when it's escapable by double jumping, but it's also worth noting that you can get all of the possible trajectories off dash attack at any percent if they connect.
I figured that the only practical use of this would be off a low percent (0%ish) dash grab against Falco or Falcon (since up-throw follow ups are probably more consistent on Fox) or as a mixup against opponents who hold away off of being thrown. I think some of the better follow ups off of this would be to wave dash in and regrab if the opponent is sent straight up, especially if this puts you in range to perform the chain grab at the ledge. If they are sent towards you it's possible to regrab, but there aren't many follow ups that occur after that since Nana is pretty far away. I guess just smash attacking them would be pretty okay.
Here's a really crappy video of me doing this a few times so you don't just have to visualize what I'm talking about : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXjISjW5WhM
I've only messed around with this for a few minutes today, so it might be totally pointless/bad to go for this, but I figured it might be worth experimenting with, especially for the more "adventurous" ICs. I'm sure this works at lower percents, but I haven't really checked when it's escapable by double jumping, but it's also worth noting that you can get all of the possible trajectories off dash attack at any percent if they connect.
the are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better options. any chain grab vs spacies is far more optimal, and considering the impracticality of it it would be far better to just ****in charge fsmash if you dont want to chaingrab
Cervidae
Smash Apprentice
Yeah, there are way more optimal things to do than this. I should have prefaced the post with "don't ever use this if you're serious, but here's something dumb and how you can use it."
In reality I was just bored on a Sunday afternoon and felt like messing around in melee for a bit.
this isn't a guarenteed regrab, they can just tech it lol. i can not think of a time that this is optimal
ilysm
sleepy
Wait, how would they tech either of those? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. For what it's worth, I know that fthrow -> dash attack is a chaingrab on spacies in PM, because dthrow dair won't work due to [reasons?]. It works ok when there's no platform in the way. To my knowledge, all the moves involved are essentially the same, though things that are supposed to be essentially the same in PM have been weird sometimes (see dthrow dair).
Last edited:
ilysm
sleepy
LobotomyPop :^)
You fricked up, mister.
Ayy, nice profile picture, Indigeau.
Blue2ez
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2014
- Messages
- 35
Smashboards IC players, I'm feeling quite studious. Does anyone have any great VODs that I could analyse that would help me understand how to use desyncs in neutral better? Note - I've watched plenty of Wobbles plays but I feel as though too much goes on in a match and i'm unable to dissect what really happens and why.
LobotomyPop :^)
You fricked up, mister.
Well, if you want an easier way to dissect the videos, you can just slow down the videos on Youtube. But if you're talking about you don't know what's going on, rather than it's too fast for you to keep up with, there are about 2-3 videos by Melee Tutorials which can be really helpful for a new ICs player, such as this.
jaseroque
Smash Rookie
What should I do when I get shined by Fox and start sliding across the stage toward the ledge? I tend to panic and try to regain center stage only to get caught in my movement and punished.
941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
It kind of depends on where Nana is, and how close to the ledge You are. Usually it's good to just grab the ledge if You're close enough and try to reset the situation, but if Nana is still in play, it becomes pretty situational and You have to access the risk/reward for trying to save Nana. If You aren't close enough to grab the ledge, Usually it's best to just DI away and focus on regaining position once You're at less of a disadvantage.
ilysm
sleepy
^This. Grind out invincible ledgedashes, Icies have a very good one and being able to do them consistently in this scenario eases it up somewhat. Shine and the things it does to Icies irritate me so much, though. I swear I dislike the Fox matchup more than the Peach one.
BESTFOXMAIN
Smash Rookie
What are good applications of dair in neutral? I see wobbles utilize it well every once in awhile.
LobotomyPop :^)
You fricked up, mister.
I'm not sure about every application it has, but I think the most common is either just throwing out hit boxes, like a Jigglypuff nair, or setting up for grabs.
Last edited:
Cervidae
Smash Apprentice
Short hop dair is the fastest hitbox you can produce out of shield. It can also be use as a really bad air-to-air, but mostly I use it as a movement disruption.
Hmm, came to think about 1 thing that maybe can be good against peach fair to make it more unsafe for her.
Say she is waiting alot, to punish a wavedash in with a fair, what if we right after the wavedash desynch(pivot fastest i guess) nana to solo jump, meaning she gets hit, and you also shield as popo, can that make the fair more unsafe and easier shieldgrabable?
I mean even if the trade is nana gets hit once, getting a low % grab instead of getting nana killed is a decent trade especially at low %
EDIT: has infintienumbers been active on here, dont recall the name but the run in pound is starting to get really good!
Say she is waiting alot, to punish a wavedash in with a fair, what if we right after the wavedash desynch(pivot fastest i guess) nana to solo jump, meaning she gets hit, and you also shield as popo, can that make the fair more unsafe and easier shieldgrabable?
I mean even if the trade is nana gets hit once, getting a low % grab instead of getting nana killed is a decent trade especially at low %
EDIT: has infintienumbers been active on here, dont recall the name but the run in pound is starting to get really good!
Last edited:
.
LDSenpai
Self loathing ICs Player
What are good times to use Nair?
ilysm
sleepy
This is probably not the only use, but invincible nair from the ledge can be good at setting up extended edgeguards against certain recoveries if they're hitting that exact spot where you can't quite get a dair or uair.
LDSenpai
Self loathing ICs Player
Any tips in the ICs ditto?
ilysm
sleepy
Oooh, I've always thought these are fun! Try to keep track of everything (very obvious but very hard). Try to stay grounded. Make edgeguards count; be sure to just CC dsmash side-b. Bthrow is great at separation. Use lots of blizzard and smashes. But the main thing to keep in mind is that you want to play the separation game above anything else. This is seriously your number one commitment. Isolate and kill Nana is priority numero uno because Sopo can't approach Icies. They control the ground and his air approaches are weak; I've always thought it's a terrible matchup.
Good sets to watch:
Nintendude vs. Fly Amanita (this has some great commentary by Wobbles to boot, it's a gold mine of info on the ditto)
Fly Amanita vs. Wobbles (this one is a good watch and also super fun)
Good sets to watch:
Nintendude vs. Fly Amanita (this has some great commentary by Wobbles to boot, it's a gold mine of info on the ditto)
Fly Amanita vs. Wobbles (this one is a good watch and also super fun)
Last edited:
I've been playing this game for a while and I've never really thought about baiting. I know that it's an element of Melee, but never in a match or out have I thought about how I could bait my opponents into a bad situation or if they're trying to bait me into a crappy situation. Can someone explain to me the intricacies of baiting or reply with a link to a post about baiting and the concept of it? Also, what could an ICs do to bait opponents? What can they do with Nana?