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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
If someone could help me out with a question I've not been able to find a consistent answer to about IC's Squall Hammer. I've seen top players like Wobbles, Fly, and Chu get quite a bit of vertical distance when they use this. Is it simply a matter of mashing B? One answer I saw suggested there was an optimal number/rhythm and more inputs of B would get less vertical. I'm mostly interested in an answer for melee, but if it's different in PM, that'd be good to know too. Can someone clarify this?

Thanks,
~Kai~
More inputs of B will not get less vertical, unless you are mashing so fast that you never actually let go of the button (in order for the game to register a button press, the button can't have also been pressed the frame before). You can get maximum vertical height with one B press every 4 frames, though; mashing faster than that won't hurt you, but it won't improve your height either. If you mash faster in the beginning it also seems to make the timing more lenient later on.
 
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~kai~

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
6
More inputs of B will not get less vertical, unless you are mashing so fast that you never actually let go of the button (in order for the game to register a button press, the button can't have also been pressed the frame before). You can get maximum vertical height with one B press every 4 frames, though; mashing faster than that won't hurt you, but it won't improve your height either. If you mash faster in the beginning it also seems to make the timing more lenient later on.

Thank you so much for clarifying that, Kyu!
 

~kai~

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
6
is there a thread or guide on punishing players who target nana? I'd like to know my options to save nana when my opponent goes for her. If there's no thread, we should have one so we can talk about how to stop run away Peach fairs and Fox shines and Falco pillars and all the other things our home girl dies to.
 

jaseroque

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 20, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Orlando FL
How do I deal with Marth's corner pressure on ICs? I feel like I always lose Popo, Nana, or take a bunch of damage when I try and regain center stage. Good Marths don't let me up-b stall on the ledge, I don't have room to set up a desync wall, and when I try to jump or waveland over I get called out with fsmash. :(
 

OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
Location
Colorado Springs
Hey guys, talking about mid-stage handoffs for a bit. So during mid-stage handoffs you should be ready for Nana's throws, but it's also worth noting grab release since Nana may pummel and leave time for the opponent to escape. Since the opponent will be mashing and generally not experienced in this scenario, they will likely not be holding the stick up for an air release. This means that you can convert off the grab release, it's a 30 frame window. That's plenty of time to react as long as you are somewhat expecting it, which you now are since you read this, yay! :D


I was messing around with non-Wobble punishes for no real reason and did this little sequence.
https://gfycat.com/NeatDeadBlacklab (RIP black lab ;_;7)
:GCA: -> :GCD::GCZ: ->:GCA:->:GCD::GCB:->:GCA:->:GCA::GCL:->:GCCD:
Jab grab, pummel, blizzard, pummel, charge F-smash, buffer D-throw. It does about 45% including jab grab but you could pummel more during the blizzard; my wobbler hands just aren't used to that stuff.
Mostly I just wanted to see if pummel -> charge F-smash -> Buffer D-throw was plausible execution wise and it's actually relatively easy. If people have been doing this for years MB haha.

Can f-tilt clang with d-tilt or is the hitbox too high?
Regular F-tilt can clang as well as Downward Angled F-Tilt (the DAFT, thanks FFer players). Regular F-tilt has to be a bit better spaced, also the advantage you get is less than clanging with a D-tilt of your own given the higher damage (you'll only get 1 frame advantage most of the time, but the real advantage comes from you expecting the clank). F-tilt is better in general to throw out in neutral.

Here's kind of what it looks like
https://gfycat.com/AssuredPoorFerret
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
Using blizzard in my grabpunishes is possibly what made me fail wobbling without realizing it for years. At low % if you are not frame perfect with the blizzard to pummel, it's escapable by super fast mashing and not recomended, on pikachu oyu can insteas do the dthrow dsmash chaingrab, oreven dthrow>wavedash after dsmash if the FI away is done. Havent labbed that but I assume I get the dsmash to hit before he can tech since I've been successful in getting that to work kinda reliably.
 

OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
Location
Colorado Springs
Hey climbers, just a quick post about a desynched aerial blizzard use. I've been implementing desynched double aerial blizzard a bit more recently, it typically doesn't lead to a conversion but it can keep your opponent off of you for a while and can often acquire some free damage. Here's a gfy if you have no idea what I'm talking about.
https://gfycat.com/UnitedOilyArgentinehornedfrog

Later on I was messing with the scenario in which Nana is on a platform yet she is still synched, this is only possible on Yoshi's Story and Fountain at lowish platform heights. If you do a desynched FH with Nana she leaves the force range and does a normal FH instead of the usual desynched "short full-hop." This means that if you use the desynched blizzard with a FH, you can get a super high desynched blizzard. I think it'd mostly be used for covering Jiggs and Peach's high recovery, but there may be some other silly uses. Here's what it looks like
Here's a link in case the gfy doesn't load: https://gfycat.com/RealisticUnderstatedApe

And that's all I've got to say about that. It's a lot of coverage, although with very weak hitboxes. I doubt opponents will expect Nana to get that high though, so Popo might be able to get a nifty conversion if you catch your opponent unaware. Outside of this scenario desynched aerial blizzard is still pretty nice, so have fun experimenting with that in general. Also, if we could make a petition to call desynched aerial blizzard "Fly Blizzards" so that I don't have to type desynched aerial blizzards anymore, that'd be swell, haha. Thanks for reading ^_^/
 
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TrashWizard

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 13, 2015
Messages
66
Location
South West of Britain
NNID
n1nj4t2
I dont know if this is a known method for trying to edgeguard fox's firefox at all, but has anyone tried using ledge invincibility bair against fox, I tested about with frame advance in 20xx and found that you can be invincible for the whole bair (meaning that if the hitbox of firefox hits you it doesnt matter) and then can waveland onto stage and make nana cover ledge with a fsmash, is this something that could be used at all with ICs? or is going off stage too dangerous.
 

OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
Location
Colorado Springs
I dont know if this is a known method for trying to edgeguard fox's firefox at all, but has anyone tried using ledge invincibility bair against fox, I tested about with frame advance in 20xx and found that you can be invincible for the whole bair (meaning that if the hitbox of firefox hits you it doesnt matter) and then can waveland onto stage and make nana cover ledge with a fsmash, is this something that could be used at all with ICs? or is going off stage too dangerous.
Ledgehop Bair is really solid. Combine it with slip-hog, AKA edge sharing, and you can cover basically everything depending on the stage. Alternatively you could ledgedash and D-smash, ledgedash grab, or ledgedash SH Bair from the slip-hog.
https://gfycat.com/UnsteadyPleasantAplomadofalcon
 
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Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
@thrashwizard basicly if you can predict they are going to use up b, you can usually hit them if they arent too far from the stage, that said, if they mix up with a quick jump side b, you are in the worst possible situation for ics, but if you can do it consistently it is a huge oppoturnity for getting free kills.
And by that i mean that the firefox startup is very slow,
 
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NTRN

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
38
I use invincible nair vs marth all the time. By the time they up b again you can already be holding ledge.
 
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Swagic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
406
Location
Indianapolis or South Florida
I'm sure this question gets asked a lot, and I'm sorry for being yet another one to ask it (blame the Smashboards search function), but I'm just getting started in picking up the ICs (started as a Ganon main), and it's a little overwhelming with all the information and ATs.

Where should I start? Obviously, basic movement and things, which I have been working on, but what else? There are so many desyncs out there, should I just pick like 4 or 5 at a time and master those? Should I start with more or less? Should I worry about Wobble setups yet? Should handoffs even be on my radar right now? How much work should I put into my Sopo compared to both Climbers?

I know there are tutorials out there for all the techs, and plenty that may not have even been discovered yet, but trying to learn 35 techniques in one practice session isn't gonna work for me. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Does anyone have the link to that gfycat of an IC player dthrow chain grabbing a Sheik and taunting with Nana each time? I thought I saw it on Reddit a while back, but can't find it.
 

EndingOfGenesis

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
14
Does anyone have the link to that gfycat of an IC player dthrow chain grabbing a Sheik and taunting with Nana each time? I thought I saw it on Reddit a while back, but can't find it.
its a fairly recent nintendude set. Thats all I know.
 

OddishGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
203
Location
Colorado Springs
Hey climbers, here with a spiel of random information.

If Popo is onstage and Nana has been knocked offstage, a great way to save Nana is belay canceling. However, climbers will oftentimes jump off stage, DJ back near ledge, and belay cancel; this is slow and unsafe.
So we should use run-off reverse belay cancels! They're just about the fastest way to save Nana. These need to be executed in a 5 frame window; if you are too slow Nana will teleport below rather than getting pulted upwards. She can still be saved by you falling off and belaying or squalling, but this is a pretty poopy situation so it's important to learn that 5 frame window.

Another option is to WD off into a belay cancel. This is typically faster due to the fact that WDing is faster than run. I find this method a little more difficult, but learning both methods is definitely worth it.

Execution-wise this is pretty simple. You can either Up-B frame perfectly to avoid DJing, or you can start tilting the stick upwards before you fully reach the ledge. For the running reverse belay cancel you slowly QC the stick up, but for the WD method it's best to try to get the stick up ASAP, getting the stick into position while in WD lag.
This is very similar to the Jigglypuff no-jump-sing edgehog, so if you are at all familiar with that this should be no problem.

It looks like this
Link in case gfy doesn't load here: http://gfycat.com/DifficultBrownAzurevase


DIing is important, but drift gained from DJing is also important. The initial drift is a big factor in which direction your jump will start out and at what speed.
When you are hit by a big attack and sent very near the edge blastzones, it's good to DJ soon to get that DJ momentum affecting you ASAP. However, players will often still be holding the stick for survival DI. This means that the stick is not fully towards the stage and their DJ initial drift will be less effective than it could be. Make sure that after you have gotten survival DI to tilt the stick fully back to the stage before using your jump. It's a small optimization to keep in mind but it can save you a stock from time to time.


Amsah teching is neato, and although you won't get to use it much it's important to keep in mind that it is an option if your opponent lets you land onstage. Some players prefer to CC punish Sopo's solo squall rather than try to intercept it so it's not an entirely uncommon situation for Amsah teching to be useful. Squall does not allow for much drift near the end either, so setting the sticks for the Amsah tech will not typically hinder your recovery. You can practice this using 20XX 3.02 and having Marth F-smash while having max % set to around 30%, allowing you to still survive if you mess up. It takes maybe 10 minutes of practice to get the motion and timing down.
The main thing to avoid with Amsah teching is recognizing when you are actionable. If someone tries to CC Falcon punch you, you can just dash away and avoid that mess. If you're holding C-stick down and pressing L/R trying to Amsah tech, you may end up spot-dodging because you didn't realize you could move yet and then you end up in a highlight reel. Total bummer (send me that highlight reel tho).

We should also practice walljump teching with full belay and as Sopo. You can often sweetspot with Sopo recovery, but if you misspace and a Falco Dairs or a Marth D-tilts it's not the end of the world. You have to input the L/R + Y/X presses soon after the Up-B in comparison to Fox/Falco/Falcon who wait a bit since their recovery takes years, the smash DI timing is standard. You can practice this with the old motion sensor bombs in training mode dealio

Here's a low quality gfy with all-oh-dis survival teching.
http://gfycat.com/PaleColossalAvians


My next post will be a tad more focused, but in the meantime thanks for reading ^_^/
 
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NTRN

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
38
If you find run off belay cancels to be inconsistent because you double jump at the ledge, you can try WD forward>shield>slide off>belay. The advantage with this method is that you can hold full up during WD lag and not input a tap jump, then you just mash b while in shield. You have to be a little careful with this method though, Nana can't upb or of shield, so you may and up solo belaying facing away from stage.
You don't have to turn around, and it is real fast.
 

SHIP

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
95
Location
South West UK
Hey climbers, here with a spiel of random information.

If Popo is onstage and Nana has been knocked offstage, a great way to save Nana is belay canceling. However, climbers will oftentimes jump off stage, DJ back near ledge, and belay cancel; this is slow and unsafe.
So we should use run-off reverse belay cancels! They're just about the fastest way to save Nana. These need to be executed in a 5 frame window; if you are too slow Nana will teleport below rather than getting pulted upwards. She can still be saved by you falling off and belaying or squalling, but this is a pretty poopy situation so it's important to learn that 5 frame window.

Another option is to WD off into a belay cancel. This is typically faster due to the fact that WDing is faster than run. I find this method a little more difficult, but learning both methods is definitely worth it.

Execution-wise this is pretty simple. You can either Up-B frame perfectly to avoid DJing, or you can start tilting the stick upwards before you fully reach the ledge. For the running reverse belay cancel you slowly QC the stick up, but for the WD method it's best to try to get the stick up ASAP, getting the stick into position while in WD lag.
This is very similar to the Jigglypuff no-jump-sing edgehog, so if you are at all familiar with that this should be no problem.

It looks like this
Link in case gfy doesn't load here: http://gfycat.com/DifficultBrownAzurevase


DIing is important, but drift gained from DJing is also important. The initial drift is a big factor in which direction your jump will start out and at what speed.
When you are hit by a big attack and sent very near the edge blastzones, it's good to DJ soon to get that DJ momentum affecting you ASAP. However, players will often still be holding the stick for survival DI. This means that the stick is not fully towards the stage and their DJ initial drift will be less effective than it could be. Make sure that after you have gotten survival DI to tilt the stick fully back to the stage before using your jump. It's a small optimization to keep in mind but it can save you a stock from time to time.


Amsah teching is neato, and although you won't get to use it much it's important to keep in mind that it is an option if your opponent lets you land onstage. Some players prefer to CC punish Sopo's solo squall rather than try to intercept it so it's not an entirely uncommon situation for Amsah teching to be useful. Squall does not allow for much drift near the end either, so setting the sticks for the Amsah tech will not typically hinder your recovery. You can practice this using 20XX 3.02 and having Marth F-smash while having max % set to around 30%, allowing you to still survive if you mess up. It takes maybe 10 minutes of practice to get the motion and timing down.
The main thing to avoid with Amsah teching is recognizing when you are actionable. If someone tries to CC Falcon punch you, you can just dash away and avoid that mess. If you're holding C-stick down and pressing L/R trying to Amsah tech, you may end up spot-dodging because you didn't realize you could move yet and then you end up in a highlight reel. Total bummer (send me that highlight reel tho).

We should also practice walljump teching with full belay and as Sopo. You can often sweetspot with Sopo recovery, but if you misspace and a Falco Dairs or a Marth D-tilts it's not the end of the world. You have to input the L/R + Y/X presses soon after the Up-B in comparison to Fox/Falco/Falcon who wait a bit since their recovery takes years, the smash DI timing is standard. You can practice this with the old motion sensor bombs in training mode dealio

Here's a low quality gfy with all-oh-dis survival teching.
http://gfycat.com/PaleColossalAvians


My next post will be a tad more focused, but in the meantime thanks for reading ^_^/
From my testing the wd off belay cancel doesnt work on yoshis. Nana always just dud rockets and falls to her death. Did you know about this? Do I have to do a different timing to make her actually live?
 

NTRN

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
38
From my testing the wd off belay cancel doesnt work on yoshis. Nana always just dud rockets and falls to her death. Did you know about this? Do I have to do a different timing to make her actually live?
Due to the sloped sides of yoshis, when you run off I believe you keep your slightly negative vertical velocity. You can try it yourself with fox. Run off and up b as you slide off and fox will follow the slope of the stage. This means that the negative velocity cancels with the slight positive vertical initial velocity from the belay, making popo grab the edge sooner than on stages with flat edges. I confirmed this by testing on Venom and Corneria. Neither run off upb or WD forward or back cancels work due to this.
However, you can drop down and save her and still belay cancel the save.
 

TrevR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Messages
37
Location
Florida
3DS FC
4313-0528-5701
How much better of a character do you think IC's would be if Nana had random DI and some basic recovery skills?
IC struggle is too real.
I think they wouldn't be really that much better, but instead much more consistent of a character, instead of the high variance one that you see today.
 

20Too

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 29, 2016
Messages
2
Whenever I go for a jab to Nana blizzard at the ledge during handoffs everyone always breaks free. Is this because the startup time takes to long and they have time to get out? Should I just not go for the blizzard? Any tips would be great.
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
2 20Too Dont blizzard, i had trouble for years to learn wobble, i think the main mistake was using blizzard, which my opponents mashed out of. That said, if you are aware of the 20 frames groundrelease and 30 frames airrelease advantage, you might be able to follow that up anyways. That said, is if blizzard hasnt got too much endlag.
 

hohep

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
3
Location
NY
Not sure if this is new, but when you wavedash backwards from the edge of Yoshi's (around where the slope starts), Nana jumps while Popo wavedashes towards stage. I find this happens anywhere there's a slope that you can wavedash on, so it works on PS (transformations) and FoD as well. Not too sure what this could be useful for either, but it's a quick setup to get Nana onto a side platform on Yoshi's.
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
Yea, noticed that a while back too, its annoyying since I dont seem to get control of her before resynching, and it just happens sometimes when WDing on that slope either.
 

TrapLordGarbage

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
10
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Whenever I go for a jab to Nana blizzard at the ledge during handoffs everyone always breaks free. Is this because the startup time takes to long and they have time to get out? Should I just not go for the blizzard? Any tips would be great.
It depends on their percent and the how hard they are mashing, i generally dont go for blizzards in grabs till around 20-40% because of mash outs

but if theyre not mashing out then you're maybe messing up the timing, i tend to blizzard as fast as possible right after i pummel, but im not sure if theres an actual timing to this, and im pretty sure theres a little bit of leniency with it too. Hope this helps!
 

TrapLordGarbage

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
10
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
I'm sure this question gets asked a lot, and I'm sorry for being yet another one to ask it (blame the Smashboards search function), but I'm just getting started in picking up the ICs (started as a Ganon main), and it's a little overwhelming with all the information and ATs.

Where should I start? Obviously, basic movement and things, which I have been working on, but what else? There are so many desyncs out there, should I just pick like 4 or 5 at a time and master those? Should I start with more or less? Should I worry about Wobble setups yet? Should handoffs even be on my radar right now? How much work should I put into my Sopo compared to both Climbers?

I know there are tutorials out there for all the techs, and plenty that may not have even been discovered yet, but trying to learn 35 techniques in one practice session isn't gonna work for me. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Im probably super late on this one but i think any advice is good tbh

1.Id start out with basic movement, get used to how they move and really learn to use all lengths of your wave dash

2.D-SMASH COMES OUT THE BACK. always remember that, and always pay attention to nanas hitboxes are well, i realized they're super great for covering stuff when edgeguarding

3.then id learn to blizzard a lot of out of your movement options. I say this because its super defensive and offensive, so the more comfortable you'll get with them the better your grab and kill setups will be.

4.Practice your grab conversions and setups. I wont really say much here, if you wanna wobble practice your wobble setups, if you hand off and chain grab practice that.

Sopo sorta comes as you play and get better, however i found if you play it slow and back throw them a lot at the ledge it helps a lot

hoped i helped
 
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941

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
448
I'm having difficulty with Marths camping with things like f-air > double jump back > f-air. Should I just focus on using My projectiles and trying to make Him commit harder, or should I be looking for an opening to get around the f-air hitboxes and punish?
 

TrapLordGarbage

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
10
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
I'm having difficulty with Marths camping with things like f-air > double jump back > f-air. Should I just focus on using My projectiles and trying to make Him commit harder, or should I be looking for an opening to get around the f-air hitboxes and punish?
Try and bait out a forward smash then WD in and do whatever. However, if they refuse to do that then you can try and get poke in with desynced ice blocks on platforms and chip the lead away until hes forced into a bad position. an other option (that ive never done but hey theres a first for everything) is to challenge his falling fair with a pivot jab (so nana dash attacks) and hope it hits haha

Im not very good ive only been playing for about a year and im still having trouble with this matchup too, but i hope this kinda helps
 

TheRealFluid

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
31
Location
Chicago, Illinois
Hey guys,

It's been almost 3 years, and I would like to admit that I suck at wobbling. I train wobbling the most (2nd is movement, 3rd is handoffs) and I still get successful wobble -> KO setups only about 50% of the time in tournament and friendlies (goggle Fluid ssbm for my latest sets). I've tried listening to Linkin Park's Breaking the Habit as well as mimicking a 200 BPM metronome for at least an hour or two. Sometimes, I feel it out and I can get one perfect 0 to death wobble setup, but as soon as I replicate the factors, I mess it up all over again and I feel like it's back to square one. I never wanted to ask for help before because I felt like wobbling was something practically anyone can do (i've had friends pick up ice climbers in an hour and start wobbling me), but I guess my ego has finally burst, and before I put down a hundred dollars for percussion lessons since I never learned music properly in my childhood, I would like to ask y'all if there's something that I'm just missing in how I approach this.
 

TrapLordGarbage

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
10
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Hey guys,

It's been almost 3 years, and I would like to admit that I suck at wobbling. I train wobbling the most (2nd is movement, 3rd is handoffs) and I still get successful wobble -> KO setups only about 50% of the time in tournament and friendlies (goggle Fluid ssbm for my latest sets). I've tried listening to Linkin Park's Breaking the Habit as well as mimicking a 200 BPM metronome for at least an hour or two. Sometimes, I feel it out and I can get one perfect 0 to death wobble setup, but as soon as I replicate the factors, I mess it up all over again and I feel like it's back to square one. I never wanted to ask for help before because I felt like wobbling was something practically anyone can do (i've had friends pick up ice climbers in an hour and start wobbling me), but I guess my ego has finally burst, and before I put down a hundred dollars for percussion lessons since I never learned music properly in my childhood, I would like to ask y'all if there's something that I'm just missing in how I approach this.
Alrighty so youre gonna wanna move movement to 1st and wobbling to 2nd because in the end your movement is probably gonna win you more sets than wobbling.

now thats over with i can try and help
1. Go get wobbled
i know it sounds dumb but go get wobbled, look at their hands and try and follow along with their taps, thats what helped me learn to wobble when i started

2. desync
Most of the time when a wobble is dropped its because nana and popo arent desynced. so an easy way to do that within the grab is to pummel once, and once you see nana hit the first pummel, then start the wobble immediately.

3.Practice
People learn at different speeds, it blows i know. I tried learning to waveshine with fox for a week and my friend got it down in 10 minutes, you really just have to keep at it

really hoped I helped. lemme know if i didnt explain anything clearly enough
 
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