Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Kyu Puff]

So today a friend showed me that Ice climber's tournament winner (jump from ledge) makes it really easy to edgecancel a move on yoshis. Is this a thing that is known to you guys? And is it really worth using? It seems at the least to be pretty cool.

Do you mean drifting back off the side platform or forward towards center stage? Either way the tournament winner is too slow and vulnerable to really be practical; the only situational uses I can think of involve preemptively covering high recovery options without getting back on the stage first (for characters like Ganon/Falcon).

Chu has inspired me to actually try practicing instead of just down smashing and wobbling

Questions:
1. What do I do to counter Falcons who stomp five times per second? I was totally wrecked by one recently. I feel like none of my moves would come out quick enough to stop it.
2. Ledge guarding: I occasionally kill a Fox with a well timed forward smash, but I feel like it's too slow to do all the time. What should I use instead? I saw people using blizzard into forward smash and forward tilt. What is faster? And how do I do the dair from ledge? Do I drop and down air? Or am I supposed to jump and down air?

Edit: Another thing that I can't seem to do is charge a forward smash while wobbling. How do you do it? Sometimes I'll try it by going from tapping A in wobbling to randomly hold it down, but the sequence of events is usually someone charges the smash but the other character holding the opponent just lets go before it comes out. How does Fly hold them in a grab for so long while it charges? And when do I start charging? After popo headbutt or what?

1. There are several things you can do, but they all take experience to implement effectively.

- The most obvious is shielding or rolling so that he misses you and you can regain your footing. A well-timed (late) stomp is not shield-grabbable, but sometimes he might mess up, giving you an opportunity to grab or b-air, depending on where he lands. If he doesn't mess up you'll usually be forced to roll or wavedash away in attempt to escape. Generally, shielding Falcon's stomp or knee is not safe and should be avoided unless you have no other options.

- The second thing you can do is preempt him with your own attacks, namely u-air, u-tilt, u-smash, and b-air. The first three cover a good amount of space in Falcon's short hop range, which make them especially easy to land. When one of them connects you can usually follow with a grab, smash, platform tech chase, or u-air. In other words, the best defense is a good offense--pressure his space rather than just running away. With that said, a lot of Falcons will mess with fulljumps and platforms to bait you, rather than attacking directly; in this case you should threaten his space but not overextend unless you are confident you will hit him. It's usually better to read his landings/jumps than to follow him into the air.

- Expanding on the last point, you can try to make slight adjustments to your movement and spacing so that he straight up misses. For example, if he aims stomp where you're standing, and you do a medium-length wavedash back, he might land right in front of you, giving you an opportunity to grab or dash attack (depending on the amount of space). If he recognizes this trick and attempts to overshoot his aerials, you can simply run forward (or run and short hop u-air). Dash attack is pretty sweet in this match-up, well namely because it leads into grab or a million other combo options, but also because it moves you forward, sometimes leading to mix-up situations where you'll either hit Falcon or move right underneath his jump, resetting the situation to neutral.

2. Edgeguarding Fox is actually really difficult in my opinion. Everything is situational, and he has so many recover options that it's difficult to react 100% of the time. With that said, there are a few things you can watch for. If he starts Firefox below the stage, you can cover the ledge with d-smash or f-smash. D-smash is faster which can make it easier to react to different Firefox angles, though it's not quite as disjointed. As Sopo, covering the ledge with a smash is more difficult because the hitbox isn't out for as long, which is why people sometimes rack up damage with ledgehop d-air. To use d-air in this context, press down to ledge hop and fastfall, then double jump and immediately d-air as you drift back onto the stage. If timed correctly you can hit Fox out of his up+B and reset the situation.

If Fox is offstage with his double jump intact, you'll need to watch for his side+B at various heights (sweetspotting the ledge, straight into you, just clipping your head, or over you/onto the platform). You can cover the first two options (besides a perfectly sweetspotted side+B) with a well-timed d-smash. Unfortunately, he can space the side+B so that it goes over your d-smash but still hits you. I think some people have Nana Blizzard to make these options easier to cover--just keep in mind that Blizzard might provide inconsistent results, as the hitboxes are finicky and your opponent can SDI to change their position.

If he's offstage witth no double jump, but he's above the stage (i.e. drifting from a top corner), it's easier to react to his side+B options because his vertical height is known well before the move begins.

If he starts a Firefox above the stage, he usually has at least two options (sweetspot the ledge or go high) and sometimes a third (go straight at you). I haven't found a good way to cover every option. You can grab the ledge, threatening the edgehog, and then ledgehop u-air (covers the horizontal Firefox) or get back on the stage so you can punish his landing (if he goes high). If the u-air connects you can usually follow up with a b-air to knock him back offstage. Alternatively, you can wavedash back to only cover the straight/high options, leaving the ledge wide open. If he opts to sweetspot the ledge, you may not have edgeguarded him, but you'll at least still have a positional advantage.

Hope that all made sense.

 

[OddishGuy]

Chu has inspired me to actually try practicing instead of just down smashing and wobbling

Questions:
1. What do I do to counter Falcons who stomp five times per second? I was totally wrecked by one recently. I feel like none of my moves would come out quick enough to stop it.
2. Ledge guarding: I occasionally kill a Fox with a well timed forward smash, but I feel like it's too slow to do all the time. What should I use instead? I saw people using blizzard into forward smash and forward tilt. What is faster? And how do I do the dair from ledge? Do I drop and down air? Or am I supposed to jump and down air?

Edit: Another thing that I can't seem to do is charge a forward smash while wobbling. How do you do it? Sometimes I'll try it by going from tapping A in wobbling to randomly hold it down, but the sequence of events is usually someone charges the smash but the other character holding the opponent just lets go before it comes out. How does Fly hold them in a grab for so long while it charges? And when do I start charging? After popo headbutt or what?

1. SHAC Upairs in neutral can be good, it especially covers a lot of air space out of a DD. They're not super fast and you commit to a bit of air time, but the AC means you're only without a hitbox for 8 or so frames. You lose to SH Knees and Nairs and such, but if stomps are what you're worried about, stomps is what this will hurt.
I've also seen Fly utilyze F-smash/WD back F-smash very well (I suck with these though ;_. The F-smash guards a nice area, but hitbox does not linger very long so it has to be well timed. This intercepts SH approaches, but again, it's up to your timing. This also isn't the safest thing, so use it sparingly.
DDing and moving around in general can win out against stomps. Why intercept when you can just bait and punish with a 0-death right? :D

2: Blizzard is really good against spacies because it guards your face, and also reaches out and slightly under the ledge, making the downward firefox/bird angled sweetspot hard to hit to impossible to get. Smashes are good, but they only cover so many options, and oftentimes can't catch the sweet-spot option unless you're reaching over the edge. F-tilt is nice because it comes out fast, but they'll usually be able to Up-B soon after the hit, so if you have time to set up another attack, it can be outclassed.

My flowchart for spacies edge-guarding is typically: wait for side-B, react with Bair if high, F-tilt if ground level, possibly a smash if sweetspotted. If they firefox low, try to smash it and be ready for the walljump tech. If they firefox high, setup a nana blizzard and have Popo Bair the recovery to a platform, or have Nana charge a smash, have Popo get a read on whether they'll go high or to the ledge (you can try to cover both, but if they recover well onto a platform you can get into a bad situation). If you only have Popo, I typically like edge-hogging and ledgedashing on to try to cover the other options, but since it's impossible to cover everything, just try to read one of the 3 options.

I've been experimenting with Fair and I think it may allow you to cover ledge/straight firefox option and be fast enough to allow for punishment if they go for a high recovery onto platforms. Can't really recommend it though, but it's worth keeping in mind.

For the Dair, just drop down a ways, DJ, and Dair. Rinse and repeat or go for a different edgeguard.

 

[Vanitas]

I have been brainstorming a weird mixup idea and would like critiquing the hell out of it.
Similar to how Pikachu can overshoot nair and land behind someone's shield and counter their OOS option with an uair, would it be possible for ICs to overshoot a nair past an opponent's shield and then dair behind their shield? Pikachu and ICs share the same jump frame and Pikachu's uair and ICs dair both come out on frame 3. If people try to jump OOS and counter with a back aerial, they might lose out to an incoming dair from the ICs. Often when people see a dair, they expect a downsmash after so this might force them to stay in shield longer (free grab). One of the ways out of this is to buffer a roll away but maybe on aggressive players can you do something like this, or maybe drop shield after the nair and CC the dair

 

[Kyu Puff]

I have been brainstorming a weird mixup idea and would like critiquing the hell out of it.
Similar to how Pikachu can overshoot nair and land behind someone's shield and counter their OOS option with an uair, would it be possible for ICs to overshoot a nair past an opponent's shield and then dair behind their shield? Pikachu and ICs share the same jump frame and Pikachu's uair and ICs dair both come out on frame 3. If people try to jump OOS and counter with a back aerial, they might lose out to an incoming dair from the ICs. Often when people see a dair, they expect a downsmash after so this might force them to stay in shield longer (free grab). One of the ways out of this is to buffer a roll away but maybe on aggressive players can you do something like this, or maybe drop shield after the nair and CC the dair

ICs are not as mobile in the air as Pikachu, so you'll rarely (if ever) find yourself crossing through someone's shield like that. Typically if you run towards someone's shield they'll roll/escape as quickly as possible, as they expect a grab rather than a n-air.

You do sometimes end up hitting someone's shield with an aerial, but usually it doesn't matter if you hit the front or the back of their shield because synched ICs have frame advantage on their landing aerials. B-air is the best, followed by f-air (one frame less advantage), then n-air (two frames less advantage). Following a late n-air, you can still turnaround d-smash before they would be able to shield grab.

Instant d-air comes out one frame faster than turnaround d-smash, so it is a possibility. However, it wouldn't be worth using unless you expect them to jump (and potentially give them a larger window to escape). You wouldn't want to hit them while they're still on the ground (either in jumpsquat or attempting to grab) because they could just ASDI down and punish you. In most cases I'd expect d-smash or even jab to be vastly superior. It might be worth trying against Peach, who is floaty enough that d-air sometimes leads into grab if you hit her while she's in the air (and in this case landing a d-air would be more beneficial than landing a d-smash).

 

[ChivalRuse]

Wobbles has written a bunch of posts about fighting Falcon. The big takeaway is that you want your back to Falcon so that bair out of shield is an option to his approaches / raptor boost.

 

[OddishGuy]

Early Dair is pretty horrible. Late Dair can combo into stuff, and Panic Dair can break combos because of its speed. But the knockback is pretty bad, so rising Dair leaves you chilling for around 30 frames before you can act for a followup on your barely stunned opponent. You'll likely end up getting hit, or at least miss any further offense.

Wobbles's approach to Falcon seems weak to grabs, no?

 

[Fugibean]

Alright quick story before I ask my question. One day i was playing my training partner, who plays Marth, and I was beating him a lot. He was getting frustrated so I gave him some advice on how to beat ICs. I told him that retreating fair is unbeatable and d-tilt is also pretty damn good. Worst decision of my life I can't beat him now lol. I'm okay at trying to bait him into doing bad fairs as advised in wobbles's thread on how to combat fair but I suck against down tilt. I used Shffl'd fairs against his down tilt (as I've read from many threads) but then he learned that he can just uptilt after he sees he short hop to stop my approach. After his adaptation I started using the short hop fast fall short hop desync to bait out the up tilt he always did after he saw me short hop. I didn't get much out of that....
Anyways I'd like to ask how do you guys combat down tilt? How should I mix up my approach options against down tilit.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Early Dair is pretty horrible. Late Dair can combo into stuff, and Panic Dair can break combos because of its speed. But the knockback is pretty bad, so rising Dair leaves you chilling for around 30 frames before you can act for a followup on your barely stunned opponent. You'll likely end up getting hit, or at least miss any further offense.

This is true. The sooner you land after connecting a d-air the more likely you are to actually get a followup. It also tends to work better against floatier characters because they stay in the air longer after getting hit.

I should also mention that late b-air -> turnaround grab (or alternatively f-air -> grab) only leaves 4 frames for the opponent to escape when executed perfectly, which is just enough for them to escape by buffering roll. So going for an immediate grab is probably the better option.

 

[Smasher89]

Alright quick story before I ask my question. One day i was playing my training partner, who plays Marth, and I was beating him a lot. He was getting frustrated so I gave him some advice on how to beat ICs. I told him that retreating fair is unbeatable and d-tilt is also pretty damn good. Worst decision of my life I can't beat him now lol. I'm okay at trying to bait him into doing bad fairs as advised in wobbles's thread on how to combat fair but I suck against down tilt. I used Shffl'd fairs against his down tilt (as I've read from many threads) but then he learned that he can just uptilt after he sees he short hop to stop my approach. After his adaptation I started using the short hop fast fall short hop desync to bait out the up tilt he always did after he saw me short hop. I didn't get much out of that....
Anyways I'd like to ask how do you guys combat down tilt? How should I mix up my approach options against down tilit.

Haha, told armada years ago that fair is safe(which i learned from another poster on sb) and thati felt peach had some more combopotencial then were used back then, didnt see it exacly the way he started doing it but imagined something in that direction(upair), needless to ay ive taken very few but atleast a friendlie IC vs peach in the recent years (havent played that much the latest few years though) and the sets in the other smashgames are atleast more even.

 

[R.I.P.]

When someone plays their Peach secondary as a counter and you beat them with it F*CK YEAH

 

[FriarFox (C0ky)]

What do I do with Peach? How do I beat her with Climbers?

 

[Smog]

So I've got 2 problems
1 Peach
It feels as if peach's downsmash is so quick with so little ending lag I can't punish it. What are good punishes to peaches downsmash? And what are good ways to avoid it in general because CC is no fun.

2 Fox
Fox shine.
When fox shines both climbers close to the edge, popo falls first and grabs ledge, then nana falls off and jumps back on stage perfectly for fox to get that easy shine for nana bye-bye. Are there solutions for this? Should I nana rocket? Should I just go for it and squall hammer? Should I ledgehop aerial/attack? What do I do. Obviously I have to have mix-ups and stuff, but what is the safest option?

 

[Kyu Puff]

So I've got 2 problems
1 Peach
It feels as if peach's downsmash is so quick with so little ending lag I can't punish it. What are good punishes to peaches downsmash? And what are good ways to avoid it in general because CC is no fun.

2 Fox
Fox shine.
When fox shines both climbers close to the edge, popo falls first and grabs ledge, then nana falls off and jumps back on stage perfectly for fox to get that easy shine for nana bye-bye. Are there solutions for this? Should I nana rocket? Should I just go for it and squall hammer? Should I ledgehop aerial/attack? What do I do. Obviously I have to have mix-ups and stuff, but what is the safest option?

1. You can punish it with wd oos -> grab, but the timing is pretty strict. If she just whiffs completely, you can wait outside its range and punish with dash/wd -> grab. The timing for that isn't as hard but you run into a similar problem; if you're too early, you get hit by the d-smash, and if you're not quick enough she might spotdodge the grab and hit you with another d-smash. An easier option is to just jump over her and attack with synched f-air/b-air. Either will beat crouch cancel (f-air is safe starting at 7% I believe, not sure about b-air), shield, another d-smash, etc. If you can manage to knock her down, it sometimes leads to a grab.

2. Whenever Popo passes over the ledge you should fastfall so that you grab it as soon as possible. The "safest" option depends on where Fox is/what he's trying to do. In most cases you can probably ledgehop n-air/f-air or ledgedash d-smash/f-tilt/any aerial. Nana Rocket might work sometimes as well (though you'll typically have to follow it up immediately with one of the other options so that your opponent doesn't hit Nana before she regains her second jump). The most important thing is that you fastfall to the ledge with Popo to minimize time spend sliding off the stage in hitstun. If you fail to grab the ledge with Popo, then you'll often need to resort to Belay or Squall to keep both Climbers alive.

 

[bomono3]

i have a better means of edgegaurding low, better than downsmash and it can lead into downsmash if the opponent has competent DI vs down smash to begin with.

a fast fall fair can reach miles below the standard downsmash as shown in this gallery http://imgur.com/a/jlVIw if they DI the fair inwards (which they most likely will) you can land a downsmash on them, and if they DI the fair neutral or out you can jump out and bair or nair them, and possibly fair if you have the guts.

i see this being very useful as a option coverage and due to the fact that you still have time to downsmash after the fair you can still catch very low recoveries if you are good. i'm still not sure if this can be teched as easy, but if it can you can act out of it fast enough to catch them teching (probably)

edit: and if you hit them with the meteor part of the fair you also get a free downsmash when they meteor cancel it can are forced into a bad up-b (if on battlefield). also the fair at its lowest point can be found here http://imgur.com/5vVsydl

edit again: here is a basic demonstration of option coverage on the ledge using this and a desynch to allow you to cover a high angle that might take less amount of time as the downsmash can be let loose at any time, but the fair can be times to always cover the long up-b option. this is more useful on stages such as yoshi's and FD where they can ride the wall. http://gfycat.com/PleasantRemorsefulEft

 

[bomono3]

double post by accident. as a apology take this gif of why you should be a fearless blood thirsty monster.
http://gfycat.com/SpotlessPaleIberianchiffchaff

also if anyone needs a gify, gif, or video of any tech for recording purposes just ask me and i will gladly record it for you, hell you could give me a list of desynchs and i would record all of them.

 

[OddishGuy]

i have a better means of edgegaurding low, better than downsmash and it can lead into downsmash if the opponent has competent DI vs down smash to begin with.

a fast fall fair can reach miles below the standard downsmash as shown in this gallery http://imgur.com/a/jlVIw if they DI the fair inwards (which they most likely will) you can land a downsmash on them, and if they DI the fair neutral or out you can jump out and bair or nair them, and possibly fair if you have the guts.

i see this being very useful as a option coverage and due to the fact that you still have time to downsmash after the fair you can still catch very low recoveries if you are good. i'm still not sure if this can be teched as easy, but if it can you can act out of it fast enough to catch them teching (probably)

Yeah, this is what I was talking about earlier for covering illusion onstage +to edge or for covering fire-fox onstage + to the ledge as Sopo. IDK if it's better than Nana smashing if the opponent is coming from below considering the opponent can live even without a tech if they are at high enough % to avoid your follow ups.

also if anyone needs a gify, gif, or video of any tech for recording purposes just ask me and i will gladly record it for you, hell you could give me a list of desynchs and i would record all of them.

Trying to take my job @_@ I worked hard to get this theoretical position!

 

[Kyu Puff]

Is it possible to cover a downward angled Firefox sweetspot with f-air?

 

[bomono3]

Is it possible to cover a downward angled Firefox sweetspot with f-air?

look at that disjoint and ask yourself, do you think it would cover it?

 

[Kyu Puff]

look at that disjoint and ask yourself, do you think it would cover it?

I have no idea; it seems like Fox snaps to the ledge from far away (it's even hard to cover with moves like Marth's d-tilt).

 

[spiketail94]

I'm also curious to know
Also, does anyone know the difference in IC hitlag between PAL and NTSC systems? I'm struggling with chaingrabs on the PAL version

On a side note: I'm new here, hi everyone!

 

[Smasher89]

I think (even though noone has tested and confirm it) that ICs pummel is slightly faster in the NTSC version.

 

[eclipsis17]

So after being convinced that Nana couldn't actually tech, I did some testing in 20XX and managed to make her do it.
Not only can you not input tech during hitlag or control Nana during hitstun, but you have to input tech 6 frames before getting put into hitlag.
The trouble is, you only have 20 frames where you can tech, 6 of them taken by Nana, and then adding on hitlag, the chances of you both ever being able to tech a spike are pretty low.
Anyway, just something I thought I'd share, seeing how I just assumed Nana couldn't tech, I wasn't sure how well understood it was.
Following on from this, does anyone know if you can desync off a tech like this, similar to how you can desync off a roll/spotdodge? I might test that out too unless someone knows.

 

[Smasher89]

Considering you can "desynch" Rosalina by techingif i recall correcly i think you can do the same with ICs.

 

[Fugibean]

So after being convinced that Nana couldn't actually tech, I did some testing in 20XX and managed to make her do it.
Not only can you not input tech during hitlag or control Nana during hitstun, but you have to input tech 6 frames before getting put into hitlag.
The trouble is, you only have 20 frames where you can tech, 6 of them taken by Nana, and then adding on hitlag, the chances of you both ever being able to tech a spike are pretty low.
Anyway, just something I thought I'd share, seeing how I just assumed Nana couldn't tech, I wasn't sure how well understood it was.
Following on from this, does anyone know if you can desync off a tech like this, similar to how you can desync off a roll/spotdodge? I might test that out too unless someone knows.

You can desync off popo teching and nana missing her tech. I know this because I accidentally do it a lot. It is super annoying and a terrible desync option because nana has to run back to you after missing her tech which takes forever and she will usually die if your opponent is good.

 

[bomono3]

some dumb thigns you can do off the guard ftilt desynch

reverse nana dash attack http://gfycat.com/DefensiveFaroffGoldfish

can be preformed by doing a guard ftilt desynch then immediately smashing the analog stick in the opposite direction popo is facing.

reverse nana ice block http://gfycat.com/CheapNearAsianelephant

can be done out of most desynchs, just gaurd ftilt into nana jump into b reversed (in the opposite direction popo is facing) ice block.

popo only ice block desynch http://gfycat.com/NeedyPeacefulAntipodesgreenparakeet

out of guard ftilt desynch if you reset your stick to neutral and time the ice block to occur at the very end of the guard ftilt popo will ice block only.

if you are wondering how to normal nana ice block out of gaurd ftilt desynch, the trick is to hold the direction a bit longer before reseting to neutral.

just use the guard ftilt desynch, facing away from your opponent lets downsmash come out faster, gives you access to bair as a OOS option and bair in general, upairs hitbox also goes slightly behind so you are better protected and a jab can be preformed by facing towards, if you mix up the direction you are facing you get the best mixups and results in neutral.

 

[Kyu Puff]

So after being convinced that Nana couldn't actually tech, I did some testing in 20XX and managed to make her do it.
Not only can you not input tech during hitlag or control Nana during hitstun, but you have to input tech 6 frames before getting put into hitlag.
The trouble is, you only have 20 frames where you can tech, 6 of them taken by Nana, and then adding on hitlag, the chances of you both ever being able to tech a spike are pretty low.
Anyway, just something I thought I'd share, seeing how I just assumed Nana couldn't tech, I wasn't sure how well understood it was.

This is interesting. I think the real thing is that you can't input anything for Nana after she enters hitlag--this is why she can't DI with you, she can't crouch cancel, etc. It makes sense that if you hit the ground immediately after being hit, she can read the tech input before she enters hitlag. It would be more useful if we could figure out how to do the other things (i.e. directional inputs during Nana's hitlag).

 

[OddishGuy]

Is it possible to cover a downward angled Firefox sweetspot with f-air?

look at that disjoint and ask yourself, do you think it would cover it?

Alright alright alright alright alright. I finally got off my butt and tested Fair edgeguards against FireFox/Bird.

If executed frame perfectly, there is a 2 frame window which guards your face (if the fire fox goes straight onstage) and potentially guards the ledge. If executed 1 frame late, you trade with the FireFox/Bird, if Executed 1 frame early, you trade with the Meteor hitbox (not the worst trade TBH). The Earlier part of that 2 frame window also uses the meteor hitbox without trading, swell.

I say that this can "potentially" guard the ledge and that's because at a good enough angle this will never hit the fire-fox/bird. The "too early" frame that makes you trade with your meteor can also potentially guard ledge.

So let's break this down.

When Fair was Started | FireFox to ledge | FireFox onstage(face)
Too Early | No hit | Face gets hit
One frame early | Possibly hit | Trade (sometimes face just gets hit)
Perfect(1) | Possibly hit | Guard face with Fair
Perfect(2) | Possibly hit | Guard face with Fair (meteor)
One frame late | No hit | Trade (meteor)
Too late | No hit | Face gets hit

Now I also tested F-smash. Turns out there's a frame perfect F-smash that both guards your face, and hits them before they can sweetspot.

This F-smash is better than the Fair at really low % and at high %.

Obviously F-smash would be better at high % because it can more easily fetch a KO, but why at low %? The reason is because at super low % the space animal can actually just regrab the ledge after being Fair'd, which totally stinks.
Even at high % where the F-smash would not KO, it's better than Fair since the Fair has no follow up at high %, even with awful DI.

So, all that said, when does one use Fair? At about 20-60% it seems to be pretty swell. If you can consistently get the meteor than that % goes much higher and the Fair edgeguard becomes even more useful. There's still the problem of good angles completely disregarding your edgeguard though.
However, getting a frame perfect F-smash is hard, so take from that what you will.

To be honest, the more I look at these edge-guards the more I like blizzard.

EDIT: Made the Fair edgeguard scenarios readable because I didn't table before.

 

[bomono3]

To be honest, the more I look at these edge-guards the more I like blizzard.

my problem is that you can SDI blizzard to reach the edge so its not safe vs players with good sdi.

 

[Kyu Puff]

It would be extremely useful if someone could make a diagram of Fox's angles down to the ledge, and where he is vulnerable during Firefox.

I think maybe you could have Nana Blizzard, and immediately grab the ledge with Popo. If timed correctly you could force Fox to go above Nana's Blizzard. Blizzard is unpredictable but it might be possible to b-air him back off the stage if he gets clipped by the outermost hitboxes...

 

[OddishGuy]

So after being convinced that Nana couldn't actually tech, I did some testing in 20XX and managed to make her do it.
Not only can you not input tech during hitlag or control Nana during hitstun, but you have to input tech 6 frames before getting put into hitlag.
The trouble is, you only have 20 frames where you can tech, 6 of them taken by Nana, and then adding on hitlag, the chances of you both ever being able to tech a spike are pretty low.
Anyway, just something I thought I'd share, seeing how I just assumed Nana couldn't tech, I wasn't sure how well understood it was.
Following on from this, does anyone know if you can desync off a tech like this, similar to how you can desync off a roll/spotdodge? I might test that out too unless someone knows.

I tried testing the desync off of both climbers teching, but I'm starting to think getting them both to tech is impossible.

I was trying to get hit with a Falco Dair after inputting airdodge, this way I would start the airdodge, not yet become invulnerable, get hit, and the L/R airdodge input becomes the tech input. However, everytime Popo got the tech, Nana would miss it, even if she had started her airdodge. At one point I airdodged a bit too early and Popo became invulnerable, Nana still just barely got Dair'd and she teched it. I don't know what's going on here, but if you can let me know how you've been testing I'd appreciate it.

my problem is that you can SDI blizzard to reach the edge so its not safe vs players with good sdi.

You can edgehog while blizzarding and transition to a Dair edge-guard setup.

 

[bomono3]

You can edgehog while blizzarding and transition to a Dair edge-guard setup.

what is keeping them from air dodge on stage? if they air dodge on stage what would be the ideal punish?

 

[Kyu Puff]

what is keeping them from air dodge on stage? if they air dodge on stage what would be the ideal punish?

Wait -> react to airdodge -> normal getup or waveland onto stage -> grab? Haven't done much deep testing of the Blizzard edgeguard but it seems like maybe reacting from the ledge isn't such a bad option.

 

[eclipsis17]

I tried testing the desync off of both climbers teching, but I'm starting to think getting them both to tech is impossible.

I was trying to get hit with a Falco Dair after inputting airdodge, this way I would start the airdodge, not yet become invulnerable, get hit, and the L/R airdodge input becomes the tech input. However, everytime Popo got the tech, Nana would miss it, even if she had started her airdodge. At one point I airdodged a bit too early and Popo became invulnerable, Nana still just barely got Dair'd and she teched it. I don't know what's going on here, but if you can let me know how you've been testing I'd appreciate it.

The way I've been doing it is using a move such as blizzard in the air, and then have falco dair them. You have to input tech 6 frames before Nana gets hit, otherwise the input seems to get overridden once she enters hitlag. In other words, the tech window for Nana has to activate before she is hit.

The trick is to do it close enough to the ground that the 20 frames tech window hasn't run out for Popo. It took me many tries, and it seems pretty impractical/impossible in a real match.

 

[bomono3]

Wait -> react to airdodge -> normal getup or waveland onto stage -> grab? Haven't done much deep testing of the Blizzard edgeguard but it seems like maybe reacting from the ledge isn't such a bad option.

but if they airdodge up and towards the stage they can drift back to grab the edge, at that point they have a mixup, there has to be a better way.

 

[OddishGuy]

what is keeping them from air dodge on stage? if they air dodge on stage what would be the ideal punish?

Dair from ledge, Possibly Nana Dair or Jab, Popo grab, wobble baby.
If you're good at handoffs, then you could Dair from ledge, Nana grab, handoff stuff.

It would be extremely useful if someone could make a diagram of Fox's angles down to the ledge, and where he is vulnerable during Firefox.

Here's a horribly made gfy, this is where I was testing from. I wanted the spacie at such a position where D-smash would not cover our face.

Lank in case gfy doesn't load http://gfycat.com/SandyJoyfulCaiman

The way I've been doing it is using a move such as blizzard in the air, and then have falco dair them. You have to input tech 6 frames before Nana gets hit, otherwise the input seems to get overridden once she enters hitlag. In other words, the tech window for Nana has to activate before she is hit.

The trick is to do it close enough to the ground that the 20 frames tech window hasn't run out for Popo. It took me many tries, and it seems pretty impractical/impossible in a real match.

I'll test again, IDK why I didn't think of having them do a move before getting hit.

 

[eclipsis17]

So I did some more testing today, and you can indeed desync off a tech with both characters. But as I said before its really hard as the tech window has to open for Nana BEFORE she even gets hit.

I originally thought Nana always teched the same way as Popo, but after more testing, I believe she techs randomly. Although she may also tech dependant on the opponents position, similar to CPU's (or at least their get-up options after missing a tech).

So because you can't control her tech direction, setting up a desync this way is also unreliable.

 

[Fugibean]

I'm definitely not motivated enough, but it would be cool to create some sort of flowchart for (almost) every possible edgegaurd vs fox (or an other char) depending on height, distance, double jump or nah, if they used their b+up or b+side. Also an interactive graphic like the heatmaps of all the top tiers (like the one posted on r/ssbm) would be cool to go along with this. Just a thought probably not reasonable.

 

[bomono3]

I'm definitely not motivated enough, but it would be cool to create some sort of flowchart for (almost) every possible edgegaurd vs fox (or an other char) depending on height, distance, double jump or nah, if they used their b+up or b+side. Also an interactive graphic like the heatmaps of all the top tiers (like the one posted on r/ssbm) would be cool to go along with this. Just a thought probably not reasonable.

i figured out a way to beat firefox from above to the ledge that can cover almost any option if done right. nana Belay OOS into a timed bair if they are comign at a mor horizantal angle and upair if they are coming at a vertical angle which covers the option of going to the ledge, nana jumps up and grabs the ledge while you can shield with popo to cover the option of firefox towards you, while nana is getting up from the ledge she covers the fadeback and high options, while this is happening if they firefox towards the stage nana's timed bair or upair should hit them, if upair hits you can bair with popo, if they do high you can wd OOS into downsmash, thus covering every option possible. the biggest advantage to this strategy is if they choose to firefox down low popo is still actionable and as a result you can grab ledge and proceed edgegaurd from there, or optionally you can do a alternative edgaurd such a fair, the only option this does not cover is the option of side-b to the ledge, which i'm sure i can figure out a way to cover also. if nana is hit by the incoming firefox due to a extremely high angle your shield should stop it and then you are free to WD OOS into whatever you please as nana grabs edge after getting hit. if they are hgih enough to reac the platforms you can cover them with a upair using popo, all the options that nanas attack does not cover can be done on reaction.

feel free to point out any options i missed in this example gif.(note i don't shield during this, but it is possible to shield before the upair and still theoretically land the upair. the biggest problem with this edgeguard is the setup required, but overall i think is very viable.

http://gfycat.com/EagerHappyAllosaurus

 

[OddishGuy]

i figured out a way to beat firefox from above to the ledge that can cover almost any option if done right. nana Belay OOS into a timed bair if they are comign at a mor horizantal angle and upair if they are coming at a vertical angle which covers the option of going to the ledge, nana jumps up and grabs the ledge while you can shield with popo to cover the option of firefox towards you, while nana is getting up from the ledge she covers the fadeback and high options, while this is happening if they firefox towards the stage nana's timed bair or upair should hit them, if upair hits you can bair with popo, if they do high you can wd OOS into downsmash, thus covering every option possible. the biggest advantage to this strategy is if they choose to firefox down low popo is still actionable and as a result you can grab ledge and proceed edgegaurd from there, or optionally you can do a alternative edgaurd such a fair, the only option this does not cover is the option of side-b to the ledge, which i'm sure i can figure out a way to cover also. if nana is hit by the incoming firefox due to a extremely high angle your shield should stop it and then you are free to WD OOS into whatever you please as nana grabs edge after getting hit. if they are hgih enough to reac the platforms you can cover them with a upair using popo, all the options that nanas attack does not cover can be done on reaction.

feel free to point out any options i missed in this example gif.(note i don't shield during this, but it is possible to shield before the upair and still theoretically land the upair. the biggest problem with this edgeguard is the setup required, but overall i think is very viable.

http://gfycat.com/EagerHappyAllosaurus

First of all, nice job on almost making this looped, very pleasing =o

This would get hit by Firefox/bird to the ledge or onto the stage. One or the other. Nana does not fall fast enough to cover both options. That said, I think Upair edgeguards would be nice at mid %, but at low/high % IDK if you could get a followup, likely another edgeguard situation at low %.

I really like this though; it's a fresh edgeguard I haven't seen before. I think it's outclassed by Blizzard/Bair but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
I'm going to look more into blizzard edgeguards soon. Got to put my work where my mouth is and test situations/option coverage.
You're making me think and test, I love it :D

 

[bomono3]

First of all, nice job on almost making this looped, very pleasing =o

This would get hit by Firefox/bird to the ledge or onto the stage. One or the other. Nana does not fall fast enough to cover both options. That said, I think Upair edgeguards would be nice at mid %, but at low/high % IDK if you could get a followup, likely another edgeguard situation at low %.

I really like this though; it's a fresh edgeguard I haven't seen before. I think it's outclassed by Blizzard/Bair but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
I'm going to look more into blizzard edgeguards soon. Got to put my work where my mouth is and test situations/option coverage.
You're making me think and test, I love it :D

sorry if my post didn't make it clear, but popo can shield to cover the straight on stage angle, and as for nana getting hit if they go for the ledge, i'm somehow skeptical, that upair looks like it would almost guaranteed cover the up-b to the ledge, note that this is only meant to apply for up-bs above the ledge.

edit: nana can fastfall the upair if you do the upair timing different, it appears to still cover the ledge, but also gets nana out there faster and allows for the upair to cover more options.

double edit: my idea for this edgegaurd was inspired by one fly did in the genesis 2 crew battle.