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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
uh... sheik or falcon cover the ICs bad MUs pretty well.
Marth too. Puff to a lesser extent.
just play whoever you like playing as.
Marth too. Puff to a lesser extent.
just play whoever you like playing as.
I actually think that puff is the best secondary for ICs just because I think it's the closest you get to a Peach and Samus counter. I also don't think that Falcon is worse than Fox/Falco for ICs, so I wouldn't pick another character against him. The rest of ICs' MUs are evenish. Puff is a great teams character aswell.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
yeah the only MUs that make me ever feel like switching would be samus or peach.
Sometimes luigi, because he's a bs character. But you can just straight blizzard camp him.
I, personally, put a lot of time into my spacies and falcon and can use them pretty effectively for those MUs, but I also really like sheik and I think (in NTSC) she counters them pretty damn hard.
Puff and Marth are also really effective.
Sometimes luigi, because he's a bs character. But you can just straight blizzard camp him.
I, personally, put a lot of time into my spacies and falcon and can use them pretty effectively for those MUs, but I also really like sheik and I think (in NTSC) she counters them pretty damn hard.
Puff and Marth are also really effective.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
here's a little trick I've been using to practice handoff timing:
Set damage ratio to .5, your handicap on 1, and an empty controller on 9.
Repeatably handoff 0-death on the character you're practicing for and as you get consistent, start moving the handicaps and damage ratios back to their normal state.
This is a great technique for teaching yourself the muscle memory for handoff timings on many different characters with different weights and fall speeds, have fun.
Also: My marth thing:
solo belay OoS and have nana grab the ledge, then tilt light shield down and away (the marth slayer), this covers basically all of marths options, since you can just react to anything else he does like airdodge or whatever and nana will usually roll or get up attack and keep the ledge held to prevent him from just airdodging and trying to grab ledge.
Set damage ratio to .5, your handicap on 1, and an empty controller on 9.
Repeatably handoff 0-death on the character you're practicing for and as you get consistent, start moving the handicaps and damage ratios back to their normal state.
This is a great technique for teaching yourself the muscle memory for handoff timings on many different characters with different weights and fall speeds, have fun.
Also: My marth thing:
solo belay OoS and have nana grab the ledge, then tilt light shield down and away (the marth slayer), this covers basically all of marths options, since you can just react to anything else he does like airdodge or whatever and nana will usually roll or get up attack and keep the ledge held to prevent him from just airdodging and trying to grab ledge.
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cemo
white walker
I'm not really a big proponent of using Nana to ledgehog, since it's like a 50/50 of her giving up the ledge for free. Although I'm not really sure if her ledge decisions are weighted, has there been research into that? I might be more inclined if Nana is over 100% though, since she'll keep the ledge longer now, and it'd be like 75/25.
People don't seem to use the marth killer a ton anymore. I was just under the impression that people figured out a way around it while I wasn't playing.
People don't seem to use the marth killer a ton anymore. I was just under the impression that people figured out a way around it while I wasn't playing.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
ICs vs Samus is fine. No need to switch for that.
There are specific circumstances in which using the belay OoS desynch to get the Nana on the edge really easily covers all options, but I've never been a fan of it against Marth.
There are specific circumstances in which using the belay OoS desynch to get the Nana on the edge really easily covers all options, but I've never been a fan of it against Marth.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
I'll post a video of it soon I hope, the way I've been using it is really different than normal.
Chuckles
Smash Apprentice
PWD into DS. Don't get read. Don't get hit. Don't get grabbed when you're sopo.
Psycho_Bayleef
Smash Apprentice
PWD? What wavedash is that?
ARE THERE ANY ICIES THAT ARE ENTERING NWM6? ITS IN A MONTH ITS GONNA BE POPPIN
ARE THERE ANY ICIES THAT ARE ENTERING NWM6? ITS IN A MONTH ITS GONNA BE POPPIN
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I don't like d-smashing in ICs dittos. I like f-tilt, fair, and b-throw instead. D-smash spammers are really easy to beat.
Chuckles
Smash Apprentice
I meant Perfect WD. Honestly I've dont like one IC ditto in my life and it was madness. It should be banned in tourney.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Dsmash is good in the ditto in that you have to respect it as a CC option when the opponent is at a low percentage. Other than that, it's frequently the best thing you can hit an isolated Nana with, but not always. Dsmashing out of the blue in neutral, as is the case in most match-ups, is pretty bad unless you have some explicit reason to believe it will work.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
dsmash is broken.
But I agree with nintendude, ftilt and fair are where its at.
I really like to uthrow into uairs though and try to force them to do something dumb like sideB out of the uair chains.
or dthrow->usmash
fthrow is also cool because it'll knock their nana out of the way.
But I agree with nintendude, ftilt and fair are where its at.
I really like to uthrow into uairs though and try to force them to do something dumb like sideB out of the uair chains.
or dthrow->usmash
fthrow is also cool because it'll knock their nana out of the way.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Hi folks,
Nana's tendency to blizzard backwards whenever Popo does a solo blizzard is pretty obnoxious. It's a decent chunk of why Nana's solo blizzard is way better than Popo's (probably one of the two big factors along with the fact that having Popo free to do whatever is way better than having Nana free to do whatever). Let's break her tendency to do this down a bit more:
As is the case with the other special moves which have a synced form, Nana can be interrupted out of a lot of things to partake in it. Taunts, aerials, jabs, tilts, and smashes are all subject to cancellation if Nana feels the urge to blizzard backwards after seeing Popo blizzard forward. Even harsher than up-B and side-B, Nana will even interrupt a shield with a blizzard backwards. That said, there are some things which she won't interrupt to do this. Air-dodges, rolls, spot-dodges, grabs, ice blocks, and blizzards are all things Nana won't break out of in response to a Popo blizzard. Most of these seem pretty useless; there isn't all that much incentive to have Nana do any of the passive options listed. Ice block might sound nice, but the animation for it is fairly short, so unless you're somehow telling Nana to ice block near the end of Popo's blizzard, the ice block animation will just end and Nana will blizzard backwards afterwards anyways. The case with grab sounds similar unless you think you can connect with the grab, but landing a grab in a situation in which Popo is blizzarding and Nana is somehow free to do an input seems extremely impractical. Blizzard, on the other hand, has some appeal to me, but I need to address something else first:
I haven't even said anything about how we can get Nana to do something when Popo is doing his own blizzard in the first place. In most circumstances in which you have Popo do a blizzard, Nana is either right next to him and decides to blizzard backwards right away, or she's out of sync and will blizzard backwards as soon she's in a position to do so. I am aware of one exception to this: if both ICs are in the same place on the ground, but not in sync (say Nana is finishing some other animation), and you tell Popo to short hop blizzard, Nana won't decide to blizzard backwards until right around when Popo hits the ground, so you can use that time to tell her to do something. As suggested by the last paragraph, I like to tell her to blizzard here.
One cool thing about doing this is that, in addition to all of the usual options you have out of a Nana blizzard (a bit muted since Popo's blizzard needs to end before he can do anything, though), you can use the end of Nana's blizzard as a means of restarting the situation outlined in the last paragraph, namely, both ICs are in roughly the same place on the ground, Nana is near the end of some animation, and Popo is free to act. Hence, you can do this over and over to maintain a near continuous blizzard wall.
There's also a lot of flexibility in how you can use the blizzards. Popo always needs to short hop it, but he has a lot of freedom in how he can move horizontally. For example, you can tell him to dash forward and short hop blizzard and have Nana do a blizzard on the ground, which will slide towards Popo due to the force he exerts on her, so you can use this as a means of closing space with a hitbox in front of you. More conservatively, you can have Popo drift a bit forwards or backwards to slightly reposition the wall. On the other hand, Nana's blizzard has a lot of vertical flexibility. You can have her do it on the ground, do it in a short hop, or do it in a full jump. Doing it on the ground seems fine against characters that are really bad at going airborne, short hop blizzard seems alright against characters with high short hops, as the slight vertical boost at the start could nick them out of it. Full jump blizzard is my overall favorite, as it covers a lot of space above the ground, and Popo's blizzard will still be going on near the ground while Nana is way above him to cover that area.
Now that I've hinted at how this might be cool, let's talk about potential downsides. Most (but not all) of the time you're doing this, both ICs are preoccupied with a blizzard, so getting a substantial follow-up off a random hit will frequently be impractical due to how SDI-able blizzard is. Projectiles can generally break through this pretty easily, as well. Other than that, Nana's blizzard alone is frequently enough to make it scary for characters to try to get in, and walls that only have Nana using blizzard are much more flexible than double blizzard walls.
That all said, I'm still cautiously optimistic this could have its legitimate uses. I can see it being annoying for some characters to get around when cornered, and some other characters that can tear through single blizzard walls might have difficulty with the added barrier of a Popo blizzard.
Although you can likely picture what this looks like based on the description (especially if you played Brawl ICs), I plan on making a video today to show what it looks, especially since subtle timing differences can change how this looks and how thorough the wall is. I might fall asleep before that happens, in which case I'll make a video tomorrow morning.
Nana's tendency to blizzard backwards whenever Popo does a solo blizzard is pretty obnoxious. It's a decent chunk of why Nana's solo blizzard is way better than Popo's (probably one of the two big factors along with the fact that having Popo free to do whatever is way better than having Nana free to do whatever). Let's break her tendency to do this down a bit more:
As is the case with the other special moves which have a synced form, Nana can be interrupted out of a lot of things to partake in it. Taunts, aerials, jabs, tilts, and smashes are all subject to cancellation if Nana feels the urge to blizzard backwards after seeing Popo blizzard forward. Even harsher than up-B and side-B, Nana will even interrupt a shield with a blizzard backwards. That said, there are some things which she won't interrupt to do this. Air-dodges, rolls, spot-dodges, grabs, ice blocks, and blizzards are all things Nana won't break out of in response to a Popo blizzard. Most of these seem pretty useless; there isn't all that much incentive to have Nana do any of the passive options listed. Ice block might sound nice, but the animation for it is fairly short, so unless you're somehow telling Nana to ice block near the end of Popo's blizzard, the ice block animation will just end and Nana will blizzard backwards afterwards anyways. The case with grab sounds similar unless you think you can connect with the grab, but landing a grab in a situation in which Popo is blizzarding and Nana is somehow free to do an input seems extremely impractical. Blizzard, on the other hand, has some appeal to me, but I need to address something else first:
I haven't even said anything about how we can get Nana to do something when Popo is doing his own blizzard in the first place. In most circumstances in which you have Popo do a blizzard, Nana is either right next to him and decides to blizzard backwards right away, or she's out of sync and will blizzard backwards as soon she's in a position to do so. I am aware of one exception to this: if both ICs are in the same place on the ground, but not in sync (say Nana is finishing some other animation), and you tell Popo to short hop blizzard, Nana won't decide to blizzard backwards until right around when Popo hits the ground, so you can use that time to tell her to do something. As suggested by the last paragraph, I like to tell her to blizzard here.
One cool thing about doing this is that, in addition to all of the usual options you have out of a Nana blizzard (a bit muted since Popo's blizzard needs to end before he can do anything, though), you can use the end of Nana's blizzard as a means of restarting the situation outlined in the last paragraph, namely, both ICs are in roughly the same place on the ground, Nana is near the end of some animation, and Popo is free to act. Hence, you can do this over and over to maintain a near continuous blizzard wall.
There's also a lot of flexibility in how you can use the blizzards. Popo always needs to short hop it, but he has a lot of freedom in how he can move horizontally. For example, you can tell him to dash forward and short hop blizzard and have Nana do a blizzard on the ground, which will slide towards Popo due to the force he exerts on her, so you can use this as a means of closing space with a hitbox in front of you. More conservatively, you can have Popo drift a bit forwards or backwards to slightly reposition the wall. On the other hand, Nana's blizzard has a lot of vertical flexibility. You can have her do it on the ground, do it in a short hop, or do it in a full jump. Doing it on the ground seems fine against characters that are really bad at going airborne, short hop blizzard seems alright against characters with high short hops, as the slight vertical boost at the start could nick them out of it. Full jump blizzard is my overall favorite, as it covers a lot of space above the ground, and Popo's blizzard will still be going on near the ground while Nana is way above him to cover that area.
Now that I've hinted at how this might be cool, let's talk about potential downsides. Most (but not all) of the time you're doing this, both ICs are preoccupied with a blizzard, so getting a substantial follow-up off a random hit will frequently be impractical due to how SDI-able blizzard is. Projectiles can generally break through this pretty easily, as well. Other than that, Nana's blizzard alone is frequently enough to make it scary for characters to try to get in, and walls that only have Nana using blizzard are much more flexible than double blizzard walls.
That all said, I'm still cautiously optimistic this could have its legitimate uses. I can see it being annoying for some characters to get around when cornered, and some other characters that can tear through single blizzard walls might have difficulty with the added barrier of a Popo blizzard.
Although you can likely picture what this looks like based on the description (especially if you played Brawl ICs), I plan on making a video today to show what it looks, especially since subtle timing differences can change how this looks and how thorough the wall is. I might fall asleep before that happens, in which case I'll make a video tomorrow morning.
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cemo
white walker
neat! you're still finding new and creative ideas, while i'm trying to work on a desync found in 2007. that wobbles fast desync, but with nana doing a blizzard instead. from the looks of it you could probably combine the two quite effectively so that's exciting.
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Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
oh yeah, I do this lmao.
noticed it awhile back, it's fun. really good.
noticed it awhile back, it's fun. really good.
N1c2k3
Smash Lord
Can you supply the basic button annotations/timing Fly? I don't really understand how to time it.
Vanitas
Smash Ace
That's such a cool finding! Applications I can see are wall'ing out characters with bad/no projectiles...
But similar to the poster before me, I am having difficulty timing it
But similar to the poster before me, I am having difficulty timing it
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I have no idea how to do any fancy video editing, so at least for the time being, I'll try to describe it with text:
It boils down to getting Nana to blizzard (or jump blizzard if you'd prefer that) before Popo lands during his own blizzard. As for why it might go wrong, I can see a few reasons. If you tell Popo to SH blizzard really early, you might have very little, if any, time to tell Nana to blizzard before she decides to blizzard backwards. Aside from that, you might not sufficiently be accounting for Nana's 6 frame delay; it might feel like you're telling Nana to blizzard before Popo lands, but the delay might make her actually receive that input too late.
Something that might be easier at first is, right as Nana's first blizzard is ending, to heavily delay Popo's SH blizzard. That should give you more time to input Nana's next blizzard. Most of the time, you wouldn't actually want to use this desynch that way since it leaves a big opening in the blizzard wall, but you can gradually try to do Popo's blizzard earlier and earlier to make that gap smaller and get a sense of how early you can afford to do it.
It boils down to getting Nana to blizzard (or jump blizzard if you'd prefer that) before Popo lands during his own blizzard. As for why it might go wrong, I can see a few reasons. If you tell Popo to SH blizzard really early, you might have very little, if any, time to tell Nana to blizzard before she decides to blizzard backwards. Aside from that, you might not sufficiently be accounting for Nana's 6 frame delay; it might feel like you're telling Nana to blizzard before Popo lands, but the delay might make her actually receive that input too late.
Something that might be easier at first is, right as Nana's first blizzard is ending, to heavily delay Popo's SH blizzard. That should give you more time to input Nana's next blizzard. Most of the time, you wouldn't actually want to use this desynch that way since it leaves a big opening in the blizzard wall, but you can gradually try to do Popo's blizzard earlier and earlier to make that gap smaller and get a sense of how early you can afford to do it.
Very interesting desynch. I did the blizzard wall yesterday against a sheik, I started the wall just after knocking her off stage at mid percent, she got caught in it and tried to get behind me so i just let nana do the opposite facing blizzard on sheik allowing me to grab her with popo. I'll try experimenting with it in doubles tomorrow, I think it might help if you're trying to protect a recovering teammate.
Off topic, how do you play the neutral game against fast, aggressive, technical, smart foxes? By smart I mean they don't fall into my utilt and uair traps and dding, and they don't let me dd desync blizzard.
Also I almost never roll except for desynchs. Could someone tell me when are good times to roll?
I'll try to record some matches tomorrow, I could really use general critique on my neutral game.
Hi btw, I lurk here a lot but i've never posted before
edit: just read tomber's post in the best way to practice wobbling thread, that kind of answered my fox question
Off topic, how do you play the neutral game against fast, aggressive, technical, smart foxes? By smart I mean they don't fall into my utilt and uair traps and dding, and they don't let me dd desync blizzard.
Also I almost never roll except for desynchs. Could someone tell me when are good times to roll?
I'll try to record some matches tomorrow, I could really use general critique on my neutral game.
Hi btw, I lurk here a lot but i've never posted before
edit: just read tomber's post in the best way to practice wobbling thread, that kind of answered my fox question
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Tested it, was kinda hard until i did a trick for finding around where the window was.
Desynch Nanas blizzard just as fly, same with shorthop popo blizzard, then make a nana dashgrab, easier to time a dash since it has lower startup then a jump i guess, when you have done that a couple of times you can easier do the desynched blizzard.
It felt kinda strict, but is definitly something that i think can help in matchups blizzard is already good at.
Popo had some time to move around between the blizzards so i think it might be possible to squeeze in a wavedash from him to get a slide blizzard from nana, then set up the wall again, kinda hard for me to do the quick shorthop after WD in that situation but ill try to get that down to see if it works, using the sliding Nana for a blizzard wall feels like a good thing.
Edit: Inspired by this i got to practice, first the shorthop, which the shorthopdesynch doesnt seem like that hard, kinda wierd i havent pracited shorthopping with ocs for like 8th years. However, theres another thing about the landlag thats nice. Autocanceled fastfalled bair to popo ftil nana jab(she doesnt have time to turnaround), as soon as possible is one of the more effective desynchs ive seen for some time, its very easy to do too.
Desynch Nanas blizzard just as fly, same with shorthop popo blizzard, then make a nana dashgrab, easier to time a dash since it has lower startup then a jump i guess, when you have done that a couple of times you can easier do the desynched blizzard.
It felt kinda strict, but is definitly something that i think can help in matchups blizzard is already good at.
Popo had some time to move around between the blizzards so i think it might be possible to squeeze in a wavedash from him to get a slide blizzard from nana, then set up the wall again, kinda hard for me to do the quick shorthop after WD in that situation but ill try to get that down to see if it works, using the sliding Nana for a blizzard wall feels like a good thing.
Edit: Inspired by this i got to practice, first the shorthop, which the shorthopdesynch doesnt seem like that hard, kinda wierd i havent pracited shorthopping with ocs for like 8th years. However, theres another thing about the landlag thats nice. Autocanceled fastfalled bair to popo ftil nana jab(she doesnt have time to turnaround), as soon as possible is one of the more effective desynchs ive seen for some time, its very easy to do too.
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DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
it's pretty easy once you get it started, for me the hard part is just setting it up.
but I have been doing it similar to how you'd do blizzard sh Ice block walls.
a really fast way to set it up is through the Fair Desync. L-cancel with popo, let nana take the lag, and while she's in landing lag, you input the shorthop blizzard with popo.
but I have been doing it similar to how you'd do blizzard sh Ice block walls.
a really fast way to set it up is through the Fair Desync. L-cancel with popo, let nana take the lag, and while she's in landing lag, you input the shorthop blizzard with popo.
Psycho_Bayleef
Smash Apprentice
Best quote ever.
I go away from this thread for 4 days and something awesome is posted wtf. I can't wait to see this used in tournament, most people should be thrown off by this. Approaches will be halted and it will be great.
I have a few things to talk about, unrelated however to the great post. I'll spoiler to spare you all the wall of teal text.
1) really long thing about wanting to be more like wobbles/me qqing. Feel free to ignore this, sorry if you read it.
I went back and started watching wobbles sets again and analyzing them, specifically his KoC2 sets vs Mango. And it made me realize how vastly different his playstyle is from most Icies. And that if I don't start adjusting my style to be like his, I probably won't stay Icies for long. His movement is extremely fast, and besides the occasional airdodge, impeccable. The way he recovers, it's actually somewhat difficult for people to edge-guard him. The only time he's ever campy is when he is in(or getting in) his opponents head usually. And most importantly, he effectively uses ALL of the Ice Climber options. I know that personally, I have the problem of relying heavily on Nana/being bad at protecting her, using shield too much, and relying heavily on grabs for most of my kills. Specifically wobbling. Everyone just gets salty with me and their mood affects my own and I feel bad as a player for winning and then I start ****ing up more and more. At the same time however, I can't just not wobble. I guess what I'm saying is, I want have a more respectable play style/combo more/learn2handoff. I'll use Derf's method of learning the handoff consistently and I'll try to play with people more so that i become faster and can mindgame opponents better.
2) Icies in doubles.
I feel that in general, most characters are NOT a good match for the Icies. I'll run down the full char list(in order based on current Tier List) with my justifications, please don't hesitate to tell me I'm wrong. Also I feel that the synchronization between the two players is much more necessary for icies than other characters.
Also, I'll list the icies support options for helping team-mates to recover at the end.
Fox: The Good- his ability to split enemy team, keep people off of Icies, and the ability to shine an enemy into Icies for a CG set up. Also some interesting combos involving Fox utilting an enemy into an icie fair/bair. Cool combo potential.
The Bad- has no way of supporting ice climbers recovery besides maybe dair, which would result in his SD typically. Also, can very easily and accidentally split the icies up with his own shine if he isn't careful.
Falco: The Good- Similar to Fox, he can keep enemies away from Icies. He also offers more support options with his ability to laser to let them recover. I *think* he only has to hit Popo for Squal or Belay to be effective gain, which is nice. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I am; at least you get a SoPo, which is better than nothing. Can potentially use shine to get both icies back if they aren't kill%. Also, falco can dair people towards icies, who can then jab reset into grab or whatever you want, alot of options here.
The Bad- Falco's massive dtilt hitbox can easily smack icies way up, as can his shine. And the damage you take for him sending you back down to save you is no joke either. He'll send you pretty high up, and IIRC, we're pretty disadvantaged by being above opponents. Also, falco's attacks can quickly send opponents into that height that's hard for Icies to capitalize on.
Sheik: The Good- I think Sheik may honestly be the IC's best partner, idk where to start. She's very good at disabling opponents with her amazing grabs, and her fair is fantastic for swatting away those seeking to attack her little eskimos. We have alot of tools at out disposal to send others off the edge for sheik to edgeguard them, a role which she can accomplish more easily than icies. They can each be CGing an opponent, which is pretty dirty. Plus, Sheik can very readily help us to recover with needles at a pretty decent angle, and nair when outside that angle. Can chaingrab eachothers grabs
The Bad- Sheik is extremely dependent on using ledge to recover, it's kind of difficult for us to stop ledgehogging without stopping sheik. Maybe standing on the ledge and using that new blizzard tech to keep people from being able to ledgehog.
Another thing is that both characters have problems getting across the stage in time to help and both characters need control of centre stage for the most part. Eskimos are also needle fodder. And they can get in the way of sheik's tech chasing.
Marth: The Good- can capitalize off of alot of what Icies can do. Should be pretty effective at protecting airborne icies. Marth can get away from someone in order to get near the icies pretty easily. Can quickly can quickly get across stage. Can support ic recovery by diving and using side b, jump upb get hit by squal up b again.
The Bad- most of his attacks hit really hard, and accidentally happen very easily. Rather than accidentally split us, he'll usually accidentally kill us.
Icy's options for supporting their teamate's recovery:
-Ice block sniping
-jumping off stage and hitting partner with uair/squal/belay to refres their recovery
-jump off stage bair partner towards stage (very iffy)
-kamikaze nanapult with blizzard if popo going off stage is too risky
I'll do more another time, wanna move on.
I know it's pretty bad, sorry
Also, I'll list the icies support options for helping team-mates to recover at the end.
Fox: The Good- his ability to split enemy team, keep people off of Icies, and the ability to shine an enemy into Icies for a CG set up. Also some interesting combos involving Fox utilting an enemy into an icie fair/bair. Cool combo potential.
The Bad- has no way of supporting ice climbers recovery besides maybe dair, which would result in his SD typically. Also, can very easily and accidentally split the icies up with his own shine if he isn't careful.
Falco: The Good- Similar to Fox, he can keep enemies away from Icies. He also offers more support options with his ability to laser to let them recover. I *think* he only has to hit Popo for Squal or Belay to be effective gain, which is nice. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I am; at least you get a SoPo, which is better than nothing. Can potentially use shine to get both icies back if they aren't kill%. Also, falco can dair people towards icies, who can then jab reset into grab or whatever you want, alot of options here.
The Bad- Falco's massive dtilt hitbox can easily smack icies way up, as can his shine. And the damage you take for him sending you back down to save you is no joke either. He'll send you pretty high up, and IIRC, we're pretty disadvantaged by being above opponents. Also, falco's attacks can quickly send opponents into that height that's hard for Icies to capitalize on.
Sheik: The Good- I think Sheik may honestly be the IC's best partner, idk where to start. She's very good at disabling opponents with her amazing grabs, and her fair is fantastic for swatting away those seeking to attack her little eskimos. We have alot of tools at out disposal to send others off the edge for sheik to edgeguard them, a role which she can accomplish more easily than icies. They can each be CGing an opponent, which is pretty dirty. Plus, Sheik can very readily help us to recover with needles at a pretty decent angle, and nair when outside that angle. Can chaingrab eachothers grabs
The Bad- Sheik is extremely dependent on using ledge to recover, it's kind of difficult for us to stop ledgehogging without stopping sheik. Maybe standing on the ledge and using that new blizzard tech to keep people from being able to ledgehog.
Another thing is that both characters have problems getting across the stage in time to help and both characters need control of centre stage for the most part. Eskimos are also needle fodder. And they can get in the way of sheik's tech chasing.
Marth: The Good- can capitalize off of alot of what Icies can do. Should be pretty effective at protecting airborne icies. Marth can get away from someone in order to get near the icies pretty easily. Can quickly can quickly get across stage. Can support ic recovery by diving and using side b, jump upb get hit by squal up b again.
The Bad- most of his attacks hit really hard, and accidentally happen very easily. Rather than accidentally split us, he'll usually accidentally kill us.
Icy's options for supporting their teamate's recovery:
-Ice block sniping
-jumping off stage and hitting partner with uair/squal/belay to refres their recovery
-jump off stage bair partner towards stage (very iffy)
-kamikaze nanapult with blizzard if popo going off stage is too risky
I'll do more another time, wanna move on.
I know it's pretty bad, sorry
3)Most importantly, Tech. I won't spoiler this one. You know how you can charge a smash using c-stick + Z? I was wondering about using this in order to allow options such as jab reset with immediate fsmash, fairing an opponent and using u/fsmash, or nair into smash, or utilt. Idk. Might have some use for bating opponents by like charging a smash with one then using the other to wavedash jab or utilt or whatever the opponent, which will probably definitely **** with them. I think the best use is honestly smash jab and smash utilt.
Sorry for long post, i like writing lists and I needed to vent about my IC problems to people who at least kind of understand them.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Renth and UberIce doing friendlies right now:
http://www.twitch.tv/Renth814
I'll post more about ICs in doubles soon.
[EDIT]:
ICs in doubles
ICs are most certainly not bad in doubles, they actually wreck pretty hard. But it requires both the ICs and their partner to play a certain way.
In neutral:
The ICs need to be able to control the ground. They have a lot of options and move fast as all hell. This means that their partner has to play on the platforms a lot more. A lot of characters have trouble doing this.
All of the top 7 (and many of the other viable characters) are able to play this way, however.
In general, in teams, the ICs speed on the ground allows them to be the primary aggressor, while there partner is able to play a more defensive or support roll.
The ICs are also able to put up a defensive wall and allow their partner to act as the aggressor.
General strategy (non-neutral game):
You and your partner want to take the center once you move out of neutral.
The ICs are incredible at the "bully" or walling strategy.
What this means is that you create a defensive wall blocking out your opponents partner from supporting as your teammate wails on the victim via pressuring near the ledge/edgeguarding.
This strategy is also incredibly effective in reverse.
Your partner acts as the wall while you focus on chaingrabbing or wobbling the opponent to death.
So, now that that is broken down, these are the characters that most effectively work as a teammate for the ICs:
Fox: Incredibly versatile, can play all roles in doubles effectively. Controls platforms like a monster.
Falco: pretty much the same as fox, but lasers allow him to wall many characters even more effectively. Lasers on platforms often force your opponents to challenge you on the ground, which does not often work well.
Sheik: probably one of the best characters for walling and controlling platforms via needles. In this team, you will usually have to act as the aggressor however, unless you play an overly defensive team
Falcon: This is one of my favorite teams. Both of you can go deep as hell, falcon often likes to act as the primary aggressor. He is very fast on the platforms and has no projectile to interrupt your synchronization.
Puff: This is also a surprisingly fun and effective team. Puff walls like a monster and that allows you to pressure as hard as you want. the only downside is that you almost always have to be the aggressor.
Ganon: I love teaming with ganon. He's like a giant puff combined with luigi on platforms. the downside is that a misplaced aerial on his part makes a dead nana. An effective team, nonetheless.
-----
Peach: This team is good if the peach plays correctly. This means she has to float above the ICs level and downsmash only on platforms (a loose downsmash from her separates you and messes just about everything up). Her walling ability is good and she does a good job keeping your opponents separated.
Marth: This team is very odd because its one where marth MUST play on the platforms. Often times, you end up trying to control the same space. And that is no good. But if marth plays quickly on those platforms and effectively acts as a wall, it works.
Pikachu: This is an odd one because you are not the aggressor. Pika goes in and does his job and you act as the wall. Pika is a bad wall for the most part. Give him space, because that dsmash will mess nana up, but keep the opponent out.
-----
Doc: I, personally, enjoy the doc/ICs team, but it has a lot of issues. Pills interfere with you. A lot. Doc does play well on platforms, and he is a good wall, but he's bad at being the aggressor and gets in your way a lot.
Samus: I've had success with this team before, samus basically just needs to shoot missiles over your head and let you do your thing. Samus is a great wall, but she can't play aggressive for ****. Her downsmash is scary for your nana too.
Luigi: Don't even consider using this team seriously. You both serve the same purpose in teams and control the same space. It is not effective at all. It can work though if luigi acts as a wall and lets you do stupid IC things OR if you just blizzard wall and let luigi run the stage.
That's about all I want to do right now, I can talk more about other characters too, but these are the most viable characters that you see most often in tournaments.
http://www.twitch.tv/Renth814
I'll post more about ICs in doubles soon.
[EDIT]:
ICs in doubles
ICs are most certainly not bad in doubles, they actually wreck pretty hard. But it requires both the ICs and their partner to play a certain way.
In neutral:
The ICs need to be able to control the ground. They have a lot of options and move fast as all hell. This means that their partner has to play on the platforms a lot more. A lot of characters have trouble doing this.
All of the top 7 (and many of the other viable characters) are able to play this way, however.
In general, in teams, the ICs speed on the ground allows them to be the primary aggressor, while there partner is able to play a more defensive or support roll.
The ICs are also able to put up a defensive wall and allow their partner to act as the aggressor.
General strategy (non-neutral game):
You and your partner want to take the center once you move out of neutral.
The ICs are incredible at the "bully" or walling strategy.
What this means is that you create a defensive wall blocking out your opponents partner from supporting as your teammate wails on the victim via pressuring near the ledge/edgeguarding.
This strategy is also incredibly effective in reverse.
Your partner acts as the wall while you focus on chaingrabbing or wobbling the opponent to death.
So, now that that is broken down, these are the characters that most effectively work as a teammate for the ICs:
Fox: Incredibly versatile, can play all roles in doubles effectively. Controls platforms like a monster.
Falco: pretty much the same as fox, but lasers allow him to wall many characters even more effectively. Lasers on platforms often force your opponents to challenge you on the ground, which does not often work well.
Sheik: probably one of the best characters for walling and controlling platforms via needles. In this team, you will usually have to act as the aggressor however, unless you play an overly defensive team
Falcon: This is one of my favorite teams. Both of you can go deep as hell, falcon often likes to act as the primary aggressor. He is very fast on the platforms and has no projectile to interrupt your synchronization.
Puff: This is also a surprisingly fun and effective team. Puff walls like a monster and that allows you to pressure as hard as you want. the only downside is that you almost always have to be the aggressor.
Ganon: I love teaming with ganon. He's like a giant puff combined with luigi on platforms. the downside is that a misplaced aerial on his part makes a dead nana. An effective team, nonetheless.
-----
Peach: This team is good if the peach plays correctly. This means she has to float above the ICs level and downsmash only on platforms (a loose downsmash from her separates you and messes just about everything up). Her walling ability is good and she does a good job keeping your opponents separated.
Marth: This team is very odd because its one where marth MUST play on the platforms. Often times, you end up trying to control the same space. And that is no good. But if marth plays quickly on those platforms and effectively acts as a wall, it works.
Pikachu: This is an odd one because you are not the aggressor. Pika goes in and does his job and you act as the wall. Pika is a bad wall for the most part. Give him space, because that dsmash will mess nana up, but keep the opponent out.
-----
Doc: I, personally, enjoy the doc/ICs team, but it has a lot of issues. Pills interfere with you. A lot. Doc does play well on platforms, and he is a good wall, but he's bad at being the aggressor and gets in your way a lot.
Samus: I've had success with this team before, samus basically just needs to shoot missiles over your head and let you do your thing. Samus is a great wall, but she can't play aggressive for ****. Her downsmash is scary for your nana too.
Luigi: Don't even consider using this team seriously. You both serve the same purpose in teams and control the same space. It is not effective at all. It can work though if luigi acts as a wall and lets you do stupid IC things OR if you just blizzard wall and let luigi run the stage.
That's about all I want to do right now, I can talk more about other characters too, but these are the most viable characters that you see most often in tournaments.
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DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
because they were designed that way.
Once you get used to them, they are sooo good though.
Up tilt is mad broken, even though it has holes, but people don't need to know that because it's still broken.
Once you get used to them, they are sooo good though.
Up tilt is mad broken, even though it has holes, but people don't need to know that because it's still broken.
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DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Uptilt is great, it just has holes.
Upsmash is also awesome, you can hate the hitbox all you want but that won't change it lmao. I recommend just studying the hitbox data and really understanding the shape of upsmash.
it's a great move if you learn to use it for both combo setups and kills.
As for peach downsmash, what seems to be the issue? are you getting caught in it while trying to move on the ground?
My advice is to bait it out and then either punish the end lag OR jump over it and lift her up with fair (this is usually less profitable, but pretty reliable)
I like to stay on platforms a lot more against peach, so that way you don't have to challenge peach's stupid moves as often, but it's really hard to play that way and takes a lot of practice and technical consistency because you've gotta be fast.
I suggest watching some of tomber's videos against peach, I think his style is most effective.
Upsmash is also awesome, you can hate the hitbox all you want but that won't change it lmao. I recommend just studying the hitbox data and really understanding the shape of upsmash.
it's a great move if you learn to use it for both combo setups and kills.
As for peach downsmash, what seems to be the issue? are you getting caught in it while trying to move on the ground?
My advice is to bait it out and then either punish the end lag OR jump over it and lift her up with fair (this is usually less profitable, but pretty reliable)
I like to stay on platforms a lot more against peach, so that way you don't have to challenge peach's stupid moves as often, but it's really hard to play that way and takes a lot of practice and technical consistency because you've gotta be fast.
I suggest watching some of tomber's videos against peach, I think his style is most effective.
Vanitas
Smash Ace
I mastered the timing of the blizzard wall that Fly Amanita showed, it's really neat, but I felt really restricted in terms of movement. The maximum distance you can move is the slight walk forward he did. I think that if one were to utilize this, it would be in combination with the blizzard-ice block wall we already set up and use it as a mixup as most people playing the Ice Climbers would adapt to the timing and patterns of the blizzard-ice block wall. Has anyone else used this in a game/set yet?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Yeah, I generally only find it appealing against a few characters. Single blizzard walls are a lot more flexible.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
the main thing I see it being useful for is peach and like puff or falcon or something.
(people who like to go over your blizzards)
(people who like to go over your blizzards)
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Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I would be hesitant to use this against any of those characters unless I have them cornered.
Chuckles
Smash Apprentice
How does one corner puff exactly?
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
get em near the edge.
the edge is a wall.
the edge is a wall.
Psycho_Bayleef
Smash Apprentice
Has anyone tested the c-stick stuff? I can't play for a few days and don't have a chance to test it.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
what c-stick stuff are you referring to?