Social General Ice Climber Chat

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Called respect and honestly holding someone to a standard doesn't hurt to push them.

I want ics mains to like do high fives to be the right to post next and we'll call it the







"Hand off"

Rises hand

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

That moment when it says there are guests viewin this thread. 2lazy2login doe amirite?

 

[Tomber]

Hey everyone, obviously i am new to the forum, but im an ice climber main (also jigglypuff and samus, for some reason i picked all the characters everyone hates.) This friday im going to my first tournament at asu smash weekly, does anybody have any random advice for a first time tournament goer?

Hey man, welcome to the forum. Enjoy your stay! If you have any questions then don't be afraid to ask. Most prople here love to help others out including myself.

For your first tournament (and future tournaments) I'd say the following is important:

- Try to have fun: Don't be shy if you can help it. Talk to people. About the game, about whatever. Just make sure you have a good time. Get enough sleep and food/water. Take a break from the game form time to time.

- Don't think about winning: This might sounds counter-intuitive and perhabs silly, but it's actually a big deal if you ask me. You shouldn't play to win most of the time. Focus on improving instead. Understanding of the game is perhabs the most important thing in smash. In friendlies, say to yourself "alright, now I'm going to play this way and see where it takes me". Testing new tools and play styles might make you lose some games, but it will make you improve as a player in the long run. Understand of baits, reads and spacing is good to focus on when playing against other people.

- Try not to have any goals: Kind of the same as above, but yeah. Goals can be good if you don't have the motivation to play or improve, but often they'll just make you feel bad if you don't reach them. If you want to have goals anyway then try to have a big long-tern goal and many small short-tern goals that you're sure you can complete.

- Notice how you react to the "tournament game" situation: Playing a tournament set might feel "weird" if you're used to friendlies. A lot of people get really nervous and play worse than usual. Other plople step up their game in tournament because they manage to focus completely on the game. Figure out what the situation does to you and how it makes you play.

- Don't be mad at yourself because of the game: This is really important. If you make a big mistake then don't think about it. Shake it off you and keep on going. Everytime you make a tech error or suicide off the stage by accident you shouldn't be mad or upset (even in tournament) but rather say to yourself "Alright, here is something I have to work on in order to improve". Then after the set/tournament you can practice these things. Also, If you get f-smashed by your opponent 4 times in a row because of some bad rolls on your part then don't be upset. Keep your cool and try to adapt. All this will make you improve faster and make you enjoy the game more easily.

- Let the haters hate: Most poeple don't like playing against ICs. Don't let this affect you.

- Don't pick ICs against Peach: You play Puff too? Good.


That's what I can think of off the top of my head. Good luck!

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Seriously though, having fun is the most important thing. SilentSpectre goes by the whole " the real winner is the person having the most fun."
Even when he loses, he's having fun while doing it. If you start to go on tilt, switch to puff if you're in tourny still, and try to take a break as soon as you can. Being flustered and playing icies is a horrid combination. Not only are the icies demanding tech-wise, they require alot of patience. So if you're mad, and NaNa ends up taunting by herself and losing her life, you will probably get really upset.

So have fun and make sure to make friends who you can smash with regularly, that way youcan get better much faster.

 

[cemo]

I disagree about playing a secondary for Peach, I think it's more important to focus on one character and learn them in and out. Wobbles nearly beating Vwins without wobbling (or so I'm told) is something I'd like to cite. Play whoever you want in friendlies but when it comes to concerted efforts of trying to improve, stick to one character.

 

[Nintendude]

I wouldn't suggest picking up any secondaries whatsoever until you reach a certain level of skill (which is a really high one). Only then can you realize exactly when switching off your main for a certain matchup is a good idea. It's also important to have a certain degree of mastery over your worst matchups because you will never be able to completely avoid it (double blinds, teams, etc). Even if you usually go a secondary for a certain matchup it's still good to have enough confidence in your main to know that you can feasibly win if you're playing good enough.

 

[Schfifty_]

How good do you think someone with 1 post going to his first tournament is going to be, Bayleef? o_O

well i am certainly not claiming to be very good or anything, but i have a good understanding of the game and mechanics and hopefully i can wobble out a few cheap kills. As long as i dont get 4 stocked i will be happy.

One thing i am worried about though is that i have literally no experience playing against a competitive fox or falco. Also, i hate the marth matchup. One of his stupid overpowered smash attacks and you get nocked way off the edge and then marth edgegaurding IC is the easiest thing ever.

 

[cemo]

Well, I also disagree with new players wobbling, since it focuses more on short term results instead of overall improvement. Fox you'll be looking to intercept his approaches with fairs/up ftilts/up tilts, falco is similar but you need to be on point against lasers. You can try to force some moves through lasers, since it'll hit you and Nana will keep doing the move.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

One thing i am worried about though is that i have literally no experience playing against a competitive fox or falco. Also, i hate the marth matchup. One of his stupid overpowered smash attacks and you get nocked way off the edge and then marth edgegaurding IC is the easiest thing ever.

DI IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.
And try to recover over instead of at the ledge. Mix-it up. You can punish the marth by shielding and grabbing OoS or wavedash into like, dsmash. Don't rely on iceblocks, he can literally cut through them.
Fox is one of the best characters at splitting the icies, so make sure you stay you can respond accordingly.

Seeing as how your secondary is puff, it shouldn't really be a problem to use it just for the peach match up. Get decent at the matchup as icies, just in case of a double blind.

I highly recommend not trying to learn Samus. She is one of the hardest characters to learn, and you really should focus on mastering Icies. The reason I said puff is okay is because Puff is VERY very easy to pick up, her hardest technique is rising pound.

Wobbles is able to win the matchup because he has literally mastered the character, and is just good at the matchup. But hey, he will wobble you, turn and stare at you and smile while he's wobbling you.

But let me go ahead and make the decision easy for you: Play against better peach's than you, as icies as much as you can. If you find that you literally don't have fun, then at that point try to play Puff v. Peach.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I disagree about playing a secondary for Peach, I think it's more important to focus on one character and learn them in and out. Wobbles nearly beating Vwins without wobbling (or so I'm told) is something I'd like to cite. Play whoever you want in friendlies but when it comes to concerted efforts of trying to improve, stick to one character.

well... I think its also fair to note that wobbles is on a totally different level than vwinz....

 

[cemo]

#1 ICs and #2 Peach isn't really much of a difference, I think.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Has vwins beaten pp, h-box, mango and come in 2nd at a tournment of near 700? It's like comparing the 2nd best ics main to the 2nd best puff. 2nd best puff is no where near h-box or fly/chu level

 

[cemo]

I didn't say Wobbles wasn't good so i'm not sure what you're getting at. Second best puff outplaced second best ICs at Apex, too. why are you bringing that up it's unnecessary.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Every result from spex was a disappointment for me. But who'd soft beat?

You came in with baseless numbers honestly. Best vs 2nd best and honestly idk if You're counting armada or not. Cause then vwins is 3rd behind m2k who is there souly to wreak ics.

Just wobbles is for sure top 10 and has held it longer than most people reliazed.

 

[cemo]

m2k's peach is like, specialized in anti ICs strategies. I hadn't considered m2k as a Peach, I was going Armada>Vwins>Bladewise/MacD/etc, but at least vs ICs he's up there too.

At Apex s0ft beat ice and hax, although Ice was hilariously bad against Puff. Needs those KK lessons on how to beat Puff with Sheik. they're generally considered players in the tier of "just out of the top 5" though.

anyways I was just trying to make the point that ICs can compete with similarly skilled Peaches.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Ice is amazing but idk if he's overrated or under.

But yeah that's a better point.

What tech skill is needed as ics besides stuff like chain throws, basic wobbling, a few de-synces and quad blocks(i ice block as sopo after being shined and time for the edge cancel), and other fairly basic stuff.

Like as fox i think being able to sh out of shine isn't as important as being able to waveshine oos just because if You nair shine You don't have to keep the pressure up when You could grab out of shine or wavedash backand pressure from afar.

I know i should get better at mashing side-b i can't even gain height with mario. But do i really need to 0-death handoff with both d-throw/f-throw when i can just f-throw everyone in the cast to stall for the right time to wobbles(assuming i'm allow) i do platform grab tech chase but with wobbling that seems like the needed limit of the hand-off.

Also poivts??? I can do this poivt jump thing with bair but poivt f-smash/tilt idk.

I'm only asking about of the value of what to focus on and it seems wierd I struggle with pichu tech skilll waaaaay more than i do as ics but he takes thought out frame perfect choiceswith tiny mix-ups

 

[DerfMidWest]

uh yeah vwins is good, but wobbles is a whole different level...
there is a major gap between the top 6 and the rest of the top level players.

it's like when I used to beat random sheiks with pichu.
Pichu gets *****, but I won because I was much better than them and I had the advantage of having a much better understanding of my character.
but whatever, it's irrelevant.

I, personally, stay ICs in the matchup unless I'm really feeling my fox or they are bad and I want to take out my falcon.
The only matchup I hate using ICs in is samus. I usually feel more comfortable with fox.
But the idea of counterpicking characters, unless you are overall a better player than your opponent, is a bad one. Counterpicking somebody's main with your secondaries just doesn't work most of the time, they will have a lot more experience with their main than you do with a secondary and that gives them more versatility.
The IC vs Peach mu is doable, it just requires you to be ON POINT. You can't miss any punishes and you gotta be playing fast. No mistakes.

At shuffleV I was lucky enough not to meet any peaches in tournament (I ran into a samus though and that sucked), but when I played hanky panky and voorhese's peaches I was doing really well because I was moving super fast on platforms and my tech skill was on. You need to play super fast, move a LOT, and be able to get in and out. I like to camp platforms because peach is pretty slow in the air and you can punish a lot of her anti-platform stuff with Ice blocks, fair, smashes, and bair. You can also use the fair or ice block lift to get her above you and get underneath with uairs and usmashes.


and @ICG:
perfect wavelands and invincible wavelands from the ledge are really important. All of your chaingrab mix ups and being able to react to escape DI also take priority.
other than that you have things like being able to fthrow->nana dash cancel usmash and your ledge stuff with nana rockets.
Nanapulting quickly is also really useful to learn as well as desync setups like pivot ftilt guard and dash dance desync (I'm sure you can already do roll and spotdodge, but those are slower and pretty punishable)
You should also learn to consistently handoff at least the top 7.
being able to control your wavedash length and proper shield DI also make a big difference in your punish game.
It's super helpful to be able to auto-cancel bair and uair out of shield or off platforms.
I also find shield drop uairs to be amazing in sopo play.
As well as dash cancel utilts.
Being able to do ubB desyncs out of shield is great in some more spacing oriented matchups like marth or ganon or puff.
Your IC techskill isn't as hard to learn as some of the more technical pichu things, but it's a lot more difficult to consistently pull off under pressure. But also a lot more versatile and overall more useful.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

I feel like continuous desynchs in which you play them as basically separate characters is pretty demanding tech wise. I mean like actually comboing into each other. I.e. Nanapult blizz into popo fair spike into nana dsmash or blizzard again. Idk.

 

[DerfMidWest]

desync combos come naturally pretty quickly tbh.
What's important is learning how to desync safely in neutral and learning how to get resynced when you need to.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Speaking of, is it viable to dash-dance like a normal character with ICs
as long as you crouch afterwards to resync them asap?

I've always avoided dash-dancing liberally with ICs (unless I'm actually trying to desync them), but this is something I've been thinking about lately

 

[DerfMidWest]

I dash dance all the time.
Especially with sopo, but thats a given.
I also chu dash :3

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I have no idea what a chu dash is lol

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

I double dash dance fairly offen because even if You can't cover space safely with both ics You can still keep popo safe and counter attack with at least him and i think it's needed to let You dd de-synce without risk of someone punching nana in the down-b start-up frames. Like most tech skill i might want is really only worth practicing in match vs someone like nanapulting.

 

[DerfMidWest]

everything I listed is stuff that will actually help you in real play lmao

@Grim: chu dashing is just chu's jank wavedashing in and out in place of dding

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've always called that wave dancing lol

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

I can do most of that stuff other than running up-smash and poivts. But practicing de-synces (not their set-ups) in training mode seems pointless because everything has a niche space that finding the right spot to use it is offen more important than having a 100% if You can do it more than half the time.

But poivts idk if that is honestly needed. And if it was it'd be poivt jabs to be even faster

 

[Tomber]

So, about the Peach MU. It's winnable if the Peach is playing it sub-optimal. ICs can pretty much punish every of Peach's moves but fair with wobbling if you get the read. However, Peach doesn't need to do anything besides FC fair. It works at any %, is safe on shield, can be used to split up ICs, and it can be used to KO Nana at very low risk. The best way to beat Peach's FC fair with others characters is usually dash dancing into punish (grab) or wave dash back into punish. ICs can do this as well, but because Nana can't dash dance and her wave dash is delayed, she usually gets hit by the fair even though your spacing with Popo is on point and you get the punish (grab). In most MUs this can work out for ICs because Nana will usually get back to Popo fastly if hit at lower % so that you can get a big punish. However, because the fair knocks Nana into the ground at every % (and because Nana doesn't tech) she won't be back in time to help Popo. This means that you'll have to punish with Sopo everytime you punish the fair which at best is around 30% damage on Peach. You'll have to do this many times just in order to get a single stock, and Peach just needs to land a single fair to KO Nana.

The above means that playing defensively against Peach is a losing battle because you'll have to win way more spacing wars than the Peach in order to take a stock. However, playing offensively isn't much better because you can't approach Peach while she's floating at certain height. It's possible for the Peach player to stop any attempt at wave dashing in on your part with FC fair. Sure you can get some damage with some well timed aeriales, but once again you'll have to do this many times in order to take 1 stock. Peach needs just one read on your approach to KO Nana off a fair. Ice block and blizzard desyncs don't work either because Peach can just float over them and punish with fair.

However, if the Peach player likes to do other stuff than FC fair then the MU becomes very winnable. Peach mains who are not familiar with the MU and therefore try to play it like any other MU are beatable because it's possible to punish hard, and luckily only a few Peach players know the MU. Armada and M2K are to this day the only players I have watched playing the MU right. I really can't see Wobbles beat these guys in a set even though it might be one of his best MUs. It really is the closest you get to a winnable MU among the high/top tier characters. Without her fair I think the MU would be in ICs' favour, but with it the ICs has to be a much better player in order to win if the Peach player plays the MU right.

I still think there's hope, however, but it comes down to stuff like platform camping with Ice blocks and playing for the time out. I also have some very specific desyncs that I think could be used to beat the fair, but it needs more testing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm gonna call absolute bull**** on "Peach only needs to FC Fair".
There are sooo many ways to safely bait and punish a Peach with that mindset it's not even funny

 

[DerfMidWest]

no peach can definitely do it with only fc fair if she's playing correctly.
That's the optimal way for peach to play. When you're playing against peach, the idea is to get her to do something other than fair so you might be able to pull off a punish.
Armada explains the mu very well. I don't know exactly where to find the post, but its in the peach boards somewhere in VaNz's topic.
I had VaNz break it down for me in person once two, since he knows the MU from both sides, it's pretty ridiculous. Peach's fair will cover all your options really well.
When she does other things, you get an opening.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can stand in front of her while she's floating
wavedash under and she can't react to it
then jump and bair/uair or something

or you can jump near her (facing away), bait out the fair so it'll whiff and then bair

you can jump and side-b into her if you're close enough and react to peach's jump before the float

you can desync and full hop blizzard with nana

and you get a **** ton more options when you consider platforms

I could literally just keep going with responses to fair because no move is good enough to invalidate an entire character

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

You can stand in front of her while she's floating
wavedash under and she can't react to it
then jump and bair/uair or something

or you can jump near her (facing away), bait out the fair so it'll whiff and then bair

you can jump and side-b into her if you're close enough and react to peach's jump before the float

you can desync and full hop blizzard with nana

and you get a **** ton more options when you consider platforms

I could literally just keep going with responses to fair because no move is good enough to invalidate an entire character

1. She can react to it very easily lol. FC Fair has 4 recovery frames, wavedash has 10. she could throw out an fc fair on the ground, which you can't WD under, or she could punish you by dropping and dsmashing.
2.peach can start float instantly. >:[ If the peach has the "Magic Float Height" down, you can't really approach for ****.
The most you can do to peach is mindgame and punish/grab. SHFFL Fairs can hurt her pretty good too. you can do a wave blizz, where nana blizzards and popo wavedashes to move the blizzard hitbox into peach. If you catch a turnip you can **** her up. Peaches Fair dumpsters Icies.
"But Wobbles" Wobbles is a king of mind games. It's like taking the Mofo Vs Gravy set and saying that Falcon can't just dumpster on ness

 

[Grim Tuesday]

She can react to a 10 frame wavedash, but she can't react on the very first frame and she can't react to the direction you are going or the speed that you're going at
dropping and down smashing isn't FC fair, so um er um CHECK MATE ATHEISTS
her jump takes 5 frames (and a few more to actually get to the magic float height), and her forward air a whopping 15 - it's definitely punishable
and you yourself just listed a number of other options ICs has against peach
mind games are a massive part of the game, you can't just ignore them.

I have no problem admitting that Peach's fair is super amazing against ICs, but this

peach can definitely do it with only fc fair if she's playing correctly.

is not true

at all

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Ithink peach only needs a fresh fair just because it decays to 7-8%? And that's only 4-5 frames of shield stun and seems semi safe to grab based on their spacing/timing. But a single d-smash likly sets things straight.

Tues. peach floats up to the range where if ics wd they will always be in lag so wd past with peach whiffing cause You slide under won't help if they spaced their float right unless You can predict their next move/movement and that's assuming she doesn't have a turnip. For that case.

I think incredible spacing, playing frame perfect shield bs or camping like tomber are the only answers to the match-up.

 

[Tomber]

Alright. Sure, you can fight Peach while she's floating and hit her with stuff like full jump aerial. This isn't too hard and I do it quite often against Peach to get in some damage, even against Armada when I get a read. However, the problem is that the punish game is so much in Peach's favor that this is a losing battle for the ICs player in the long run. If two players who are more or less even in skill lvl fight each other in this match up then the ICs player needs to win way more spacing wars than the Peach player to win a stock (given that the Peach player's punish game has reached a certain lvl). ICs has to commit hard to the approach each time they decide to fight Peach in the air. If the Peach players reacts correctly or get a read on one of these approaches and punish with fair then Nana should be out. The Peach player doesn't need to commit as hard when she goes in with fair or tries to intercept an incoming approach because FC fair has so little lag. Sure, once she whiffs her aerial and she's on the ground you should be able to punish her, but once again you have to know Peach's next move. When I play against Armada he usually goes for a jab, down-smash or a roll/spotdodge if he whiffs a fair really close to me (otherwise he will just jump up again and start to float if I'm not in a position to punish him). Each of these moves can be punished, but you can't cover them all at the same time with ICs.

Just for heck of it, here is Fly v Armada from Evo to demonstrate what I'm talking about.


If you watch my set against Paju from BEAST4 you'll see that I get most of my KOs because of wobbling by baiting and punishing a d-smash or because Paju decides to battle on the ground. If Paju had decided not to fight me on the ground and float camp more then I wouldn't be able to land those grabs and it would be so much harder for me to take stocks off him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If Peach is *only* doing FC Fair
she should almost never hit you because it's glaringly obvious how she will move when she limits herself that heavily
you just need to be patient
you WILL win the spacing war through aerials

Fly played like absolute ass that set and Armada is a monster

it's cool tho, believe what you will, I won't change anyone's mind lol

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

If Peach is *only* doing FC Fair
she should almost never hit you because it's glaringly obvious how she will move when she limits herself that heavily
you just need to be patient
you WILL win the spacing war through aerials

Fly played like absolute *** that set and Armada is a monster

it's cool tho, believe what you will, I won't change anyone's mind lol

I disagree with this.

 

[Armada]

I play the MU with 95% FC fair and no ICs have so far been giving me a reason to change my approach to the MU.
I have played vs Wobbles in tournament/mm (Apex 2013) and also friendlis vs him at various tournaments (EVO too even though it was just one game).

I think I have way more respect for Wobbles as a player than anyone else of the absolutely top players. He is also by far the best one at the MU period.
ICs is a complicated char so I wont say for sure that more stuff is not left to be explored. But FC fair is basically 95% of the MU from Peachs side

 

[DerfMidWest]

Lindgern has spoken.

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

I was going to pm You after I watched You vs fly to say you murdered that match-up and i didn't see that one when i did my earlier post.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

mm me armada