choknater
Smash Obsessed
fly i liked the sets with s2j a lot
u got this
he punishes mad hard
but
so do u
socal is scary
u got this
he punishes mad hard
but
so do u
socal is scary
-
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
Hey11 LFs: Navn (Fox) vs. Tomber (Ice Climbers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj9oXj6bVGY&feature=feedu
This is one of my better sets, I think. Tell me what you think.
Danish commentary for the win
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj9oXj6bVGY&feature=feedu
This is one of my better sets, I think. Tell me what you think.
Danish commentary for the win
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
Fly, do you use the infinite?
i never see it in videos
i never see it in videos
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Yes, I do wobble. It doesn't come up in my videos often for a few reasons. First of all, a decent number of tourneys do ban the technique. Secondly, the way I play is not always conducive to wobbling. Thirdly, if I grab the opponent at a kind of low percentage and think they have a good shot at breaking out, I usually opt for something else. The way I see it is that if go for the wobble, the opponent will either break out and the grab will go to waste or they won't and they'll lose a stock. If I don't go for the wobble, I can do a heavy chunk of damage in any case. I am not one to gamble and I hence usually go for the option with less variance. However, if I'm really confident that the opponent won't break out for whatever reason or if I'm losing by a significant margin, I will go for the infinite.
Tomber, I'll watch and give comments tomorrow since I'm very tired right now and need to sleep.
Tomber, I'll watch and give comments tomorrow since I'm very tired right now and need to sleep.
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
your my favorite ic's and i love the variation in your videos,
do you have certain desyncs you would recommend for challenging
me.
do you have certain desyncs you would recommend for challenging
me.
Fly doesn't infinite because he's not a huge ****** like me.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
fly is arguably a bigger ****** because he camps until he gets that infinite grab
Vts
Smash Champion
Fly doesn't infinite cus he just pisses other guy off and makes them kill themselves
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
@Tomber: You generally played really well that set. There are only a few little things I want to touch on:
-Throughout the set, you go for a lot of DD blizzards. DD blizzard is an amazing desynch, but should be used sparingly against Fox. It is very easy for him to get around it from above and hence should generally be used to stop horizontal approaches (running shine, sh nair/dair, etc.). Your use of it is a little odd in that you usually try to retreat and use it so that Navn would land on the blizzard and then you would grab him. This did actually work once (maybe twice, I don't recall since I only watched the set once) and did lead to a stock, but most of the time, it lead to nothing or got you punished. It should also be noted that Navn generally didn't handle it well. If Fox can't get behind you and bair, it's better for him to just sit back and laser while he waits for the blizzard to end, or just not do much of anything if he's not in a position to do that. Navn would try to challenge it even when it wasn't clear that he could successfully punish it, which was bad on his end. Also, there are generally much better ways of punishing Fox for approaching you from above, like utilt, sh uair, and to a lesser extent, usmash. Another little thing is that you would occasionally try to DD blizzard when Fox was trying to get back on stage from the edge. This is perfectly fine, but you would space it too far from the edge. You gave him plenty of space to just get on stage and jump on a platform. Try spacing the blizzard a bit closer to the edge in this case. You generally want to space it so that the tip of the blizzard would hit them if they get up from the edge.
-Speaking of usmash, you throw it out more than you should. In a couple of the rounds, you started by picking some spot on the floor and then charging usmash there. First of all, in terms of punishment against a Fox at 0%, there really isn't a significant difference between a partially charged usmash and an uncharged usmash. Charging the usmash, however, is significantly riskier. Hence, even if you are pretty confident that you can hit a descending Fox with usmash (more on that in a second), I wouldn't recommend charging it because of the associated risk. As I just hinted at, though, you still use uncharged usmash a bit too often; you often try to use it to catch Navn as he descends at you from above. This is fine, but usmash, even uncharged, carries a significant risk, and since the hitbox takes a while to come out, you need to be very precise. There were times when it looked like you had a fine read with the usmash, but it didn't work simply because you slightly mistimed it. I would advise substituting utilt for usmash whenever possible, since utilt comes out faster, and in spite of a few odd holes in the move, generally covers you from above pretty solidly. For the times when utilt isn't an option, e.g. when you're dashing, then I would recommend trying out sh uair sometimes. It doesn't lead to much directly, but it does okay damage, and most Foxes will try to jump out immediately afterwards, which can often be punished. SH uair is also generally pretty safe; it provides better coverage than utilt does and is also a bit flexible since you can drift around in the air.
-You go for jab cancel -> dsmash a lot. This is fine, but I'd recommend mixing in jab cancel -> grab more often. The reward you get for doing this is generally a bit more than going for the dsmash, and the grab hits in front you a bit faster than the dsmash does, so it's generally a bit easier to link jab -> grab than jab -> dsmash. It doesn't hurt that the jab animation is shorter than dsmash animation. Jab -> dsmash is still fine and has plenty of uses, but keep in mind that grabs are also a good follow-up to jabs.
-You don't want to be near the side of the stage against Fox unless you're pretty sure you can grab him or knock him offstage. You were mostly good about this, but there were a few times when you would just stand by the edge when you easily could have gotten closer to the center, which is generally a stronger position for ICs. If you were waiting because you thought he would try to punish for going the center, I can understand that, but I still think you likely could have gotten back to the center with no difficulties in most of the few situations where you were just waiting by the edge.
-Another little thing is that even when Fox is directly above you, you will sometimes go for bair instead of uair. In the situations where he was standing on a low platform, this is fine, since uair isn't significantly more likely to hit than bair is and the only big difference is the trajectory at which the moves send. However, if Fox is dropping through the top platform and you're trying to beat him from directly below, any move that Fox is likely to throw out in this situation will beat bair, but lose to uair. You still got away with using bair a few times like this (you mostly did this only in one of the rounds, IIRC), but simply because uair covers the space above you very well, I would advise mostly using that for punishing a Fox descending from a high platform.
-You also would occasionally get a little overeager with dash attacks. I can see why you'd want to do this since dash attack often leads to grab or fsmash/dsmash, but you were still throwing it out at some questionable times. Try to keep in mind that even though the reward for landing dash attack is high, it's also a very punishable move. If you catch yourself trying to force dash attacks too often, I recommend reminding yourself that it's often okay to do nothing and just wait for a better opening. SH fair is actually also pretty good in a lot of situations dash attack is, and although it may not combo quite as hard, it has less endlag and is hence safer.
I think this covers everything that I wanted to address.
Regarding this whole ****** talk, I think it's really funny how the Melee community at large looks at ICs. Lots of smash viewers seem peeved by Wobbles, but almost never have any issues with me. This is amusing because I am a much more classically "gay" player than Wobbles is. If we both played a different character and did as well as we currently do, I would be part of the cancer killing the smash scene and Wobbles would be one of those awesome heroes. However, it just so happens that ICs have a kind of boring infinite, and that Wobbles' playstyle tends to create more openings for it than mine does, and all of a sudden, I'm the hip guy and Wobbles gets the hate. It's funny and unfortunate how people perceive these things.
-Throughout the set, you go for a lot of DD blizzards. DD blizzard is an amazing desynch, but should be used sparingly against Fox. It is very easy for him to get around it from above and hence should generally be used to stop horizontal approaches (running shine, sh nair/dair, etc.). Your use of it is a little odd in that you usually try to retreat and use it so that Navn would land on the blizzard and then you would grab him. This did actually work once (maybe twice, I don't recall since I only watched the set once) and did lead to a stock, but most of the time, it lead to nothing or got you punished. It should also be noted that Navn generally didn't handle it well. If Fox can't get behind you and bair, it's better for him to just sit back and laser while he waits for the blizzard to end, or just not do much of anything if he's not in a position to do that. Navn would try to challenge it even when it wasn't clear that he could successfully punish it, which was bad on his end. Also, there are generally much better ways of punishing Fox for approaching you from above, like utilt, sh uair, and to a lesser extent, usmash. Another little thing is that you would occasionally try to DD blizzard when Fox was trying to get back on stage from the edge. This is perfectly fine, but you would space it too far from the edge. You gave him plenty of space to just get on stage and jump on a platform. Try spacing the blizzard a bit closer to the edge in this case. You generally want to space it so that the tip of the blizzard would hit them if they get up from the edge.
-Speaking of usmash, you throw it out more than you should. In a couple of the rounds, you started by picking some spot on the floor and then charging usmash there. First of all, in terms of punishment against a Fox at 0%, there really isn't a significant difference between a partially charged usmash and an uncharged usmash. Charging the usmash, however, is significantly riskier. Hence, even if you are pretty confident that you can hit a descending Fox with usmash (more on that in a second), I wouldn't recommend charging it because of the associated risk. As I just hinted at, though, you still use uncharged usmash a bit too often; you often try to use it to catch Navn as he descends at you from above. This is fine, but usmash, even uncharged, carries a significant risk, and since the hitbox takes a while to come out, you need to be very precise. There were times when it looked like you had a fine read with the usmash, but it didn't work simply because you slightly mistimed it. I would advise substituting utilt for usmash whenever possible, since utilt comes out faster, and in spite of a few odd holes in the move, generally covers you from above pretty solidly. For the times when utilt isn't an option, e.g. when you're dashing, then I would recommend trying out sh uair sometimes. It doesn't lead to much directly, but it does okay damage, and most Foxes will try to jump out immediately afterwards, which can often be punished. SH uair is also generally pretty safe; it provides better coverage than utilt does and is also a bit flexible since you can drift around in the air.
-You go for jab cancel -> dsmash a lot. This is fine, but I'd recommend mixing in jab cancel -> grab more often. The reward you get for doing this is generally a bit more than going for the dsmash, and the grab hits in front you a bit faster than the dsmash does, so it's generally a bit easier to link jab -> grab than jab -> dsmash. It doesn't hurt that the jab animation is shorter than dsmash animation. Jab -> dsmash is still fine and has plenty of uses, but keep in mind that grabs are also a good follow-up to jabs.
-You don't want to be near the side of the stage against Fox unless you're pretty sure you can grab him or knock him offstage. You were mostly good about this, but there were a few times when you would just stand by the edge when you easily could have gotten closer to the center, which is generally a stronger position for ICs. If you were waiting because you thought he would try to punish for going the center, I can understand that, but I still think you likely could have gotten back to the center with no difficulties in most of the few situations where you were just waiting by the edge.
-Another little thing is that even when Fox is directly above you, you will sometimes go for bair instead of uair. In the situations where he was standing on a low platform, this is fine, since uair isn't significantly more likely to hit than bair is and the only big difference is the trajectory at which the moves send. However, if Fox is dropping through the top platform and you're trying to beat him from directly below, any move that Fox is likely to throw out in this situation will beat bair, but lose to uair. You still got away with using bair a few times like this (you mostly did this only in one of the rounds, IIRC), but simply because uair covers the space above you very well, I would advise mostly using that for punishing a Fox descending from a high platform.
-You also would occasionally get a little overeager with dash attacks. I can see why you'd want to do this since dash attack often leads to grab or fsmash/dsmash, but you were still throwing it out at some questionable times. Try to keep in mind that even though the reward for landing dash attack is high, it's also a very punishable move. If you catch yourself trying to force dash attacks too often, I recommend reminding yourself that it's often okay to do nothing and just wait for a better opening. SH fair is actually also pretty good in a lot of situations dash attack is, and although it may not combo quite as hard, it has less endlag and is hence safer.
I think this covers everything that I wanted to address.
Regarding this whole ****** talk, I think it's really funny how the Melee community at large looks at ICs. Lots of smash viewers seem peeved by Wobbles, but almost never have any issues with me. This is amusing because I am a much more classically "gay" player than Wobbles is. If we both played a different character and did as well as we currently do, I would be part of the cancer killing the smash scene and Wobbles would be one of those awesome heroes. However, it just so happens that ICs have a kind of boring infinite, and that Wobbles' playstyle tends to create more openings for it than mine does, and all of a sudden, I'm the hip guy and Wobbles gets the hate. It's funny and unfortunate how people perceive these things.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
people just don't like infinites
whatev tho
i remember back before people knew about SDI, and called fox's drill/waveshine combos "infinites"
whatev tho
i remember back before people knew about SDI, and called fox's drill/waveshine combos "infinites"
voorhese
Smash Master
do u guys ever approach falco when he is using lasers with dash -> sh -> down b, so when u get hit by the laser you fall down, and they are getting hit by the blizzard of nanas and you can grab?
The Chok bliz trick yeah
voorhese
Smash Master
nice, i saw it happen in one of flys vids but he didnt follow up with the grab, so i didnt know if it was planned or not. thats an awesome trick
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
That sort of the trick is good when not used excessively. There are many similar effective variants, too, all of which have their own unique pros and cons. I tend not to use them much in tourney in favor of simpler things, but I do experiment around with them occasionally and I do think they have a lot of legitimate potential. My current favorite variant is wavedash forward -> turn around synced blizzard on the ground; the laser should hit Popo and Nana's blizzard facing forward will continue. This one is nice in that it can be done OoS and you can cover a lot of distance with it, so it's a pretty good response to laser camping.
voorhese
Smash Master
kool ill have to mess around with this
HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
lmao, u *****s need some old school swag to make your climber game complete
voorhese
Smash Master
teach them the ways of the MW trail
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
What should I do reactively to Falcon's SHFFL approach? 
choknater
Smash Obsessed
haha trail i'd agree but they are the ones beating the likes of mew2king
Roll or shield. I think once he starts it it might be too fast to punish directlyWhat should I do reactively to Falcon's SHFFL approach?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Yeah, you don't generally want to challenge fairs/dairs. You can sometimes toss out a nair and hit Falcon before he hits you, but doing so is a gamble. Retreating bair can work, too, but doesn't lead to much; it's still okay, though. Most of the time, I'd rather just put up a big light-shield and wait for an opening or get away.
I'm assuming you weren't talking about nair, but if he is using that, just try to get close to him and figure out what he likes to do afterwards. Nair has a lot less shield-stun than Falcon's other aerials and I believe that, off of a full shield, you can grab him before the gentleman comes out; I don't know if that's actually the case, but it certainly feels like it, and since many good Falcons like to roll after a close nair, I guess they feel the same way. Keep in mind that Falcons like to roll in this situation. If you aren't close to Falcon and he nairs your shield from a safe distance, you have to guess what he's going to do next and act accordingly. Oftentimes, it's fine to not try to challenge him afterwards and wait for better opportunities. Good Falcons love to bait you into trying to punish something and then punishing your counter. Be patient.
I'm assuming you weren't talking about nair, but if he is using that, just try to get close to him and figure out what he likes to do afterwards. Nair has a lot less shield-stun than Falcon's other aerials and I believe that, off of a full shield, you can grab him before the gentleman comes out; I don't know if that's actually the case, but it certainly feels like it, and since many good Falcons like to roll after a close nair, I guess they feel the same way. Keep in mind that Falcons like to roll in this situation. If you aren't close to Falcon and he nairs your shield from a safe distance, you have to guess what he's going to do next and act accordingly. Oftentimes, it's fine to not try to challenge him afterwards and wait for better opportunities. Good Falcons love to bait you into trying to punish something and then punishing your counter. Be patient.
Octave
Smash Ace
Hi, guys. New IC main here. Switching from Link (sorry, Skler <3) so that I can actually win sometimes
Got any tips for me (besides read all the guides here) so that I can avoid forming bad habits?
Got any tips for me (besides read all the guides here) so that I can avoid forming bad habits?
The ICs are not a great character to switch to if youre looking for easy wins. You'll find that the ICs have big problems that are easily exploited, like Link. Its extremely frustrating.Hi, guys. New IC main here. Switching from Link (sorry, Skler <3) so that I can actually win sometimes
Got any tips for me (besides read all the guides here) so that I can avoid forming bad habits?
However if you want to play, I suggest reading all the guides, playing games vs good players and characters, and asking direct questions at that point.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
haha they are still much better than link
and their weaknesses are not "easily" exploited
i think ic's are a major threat character that more people should play lol. it just takes a long time to get good, that's all.
and their weaknesses are not "easily" exploited
i think ic's are a major threat character that more people should play lol. it just takes a long time to get good, that's all.
Octave
Smash Ace
I'm looking to have fun but still win sometimes. I'm not solely focused on winning. I have fun with Link but have never taken a match with him in tournament, and I switched to ICs about two weeks ago and took three pools matches last saturday at Mass Madness. I do want to play.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
good stuff octave. some people are just destined to play this character!!
Binx
Smash Master
Got second place today in a local tourney, decent number of entrants for oregon, somewhere between 16-20. Lost in winners finals and grand finals to the same person, a jiggs.
I still don't know how to approach that character at all lol. Whats safe?
I still don't know how to approach that character at all lol. Whats safe?
Nana Blizzard is safe aslong as you just use it for a bit of pressure and getting a few % every now and then, especially if you can do it under a platform, but react if she goes above you>punish. Basicly desynchwall.
I would recommend not to go for shieldgrabs since puffplayers often use for example a nair to bait a grab, and just rest nana in her lag after that (one of the gimmics hbox used against me at apex, and i´ve noticed other jiggs goes for it too).
A patient desynchgame should allways beat jiggs, which is probably the main reason the players tend to go for gimmickrests in the matchup.
I would recommend not to go for shieldgrabs since puffplayers often use for example a nair to bait a grab, and just rest nana in her lag after that (one of the gimmics hbox used against me at apex, and i´ve noticed other jiggs goes for it too).
A patient desynchgame should allways beat jiggs, which is probably the main reason the players tend to go for gimmickrests in the matchup.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
My general rule of thumb against is Puff is try really hard not to get rested and don't run into bairs. For example, if you're considering approaching or throwing out some attack that could be punished with something like utilt or a weird rest out of nowhere, I would advise simply not going for that and waiting for a better opening. Even if you don't think that's likely to happen, the risk vs. reward will rarely favor you.
The bair remark sounds obvious, but it's worth keeping in mind. Kind of like how Ganon gets a lot of hits by coaxing people into approaching him, lots of Puff's bairs will be aimed to stop you from getting in, so use caution when approaching. In the case where Puff is actively approaching you with bairs, getting a blizzard out is a good idea. Even if the sort of continuous desynching that works against a lot of characters isn't always reliable against Puff, lots of isolated Nana blizzards still tend to work well since they cleanly out-range anything Puff has and generally aren't easy to punish.
The bair remark sounds obvious, but it's worth keeping in mind. Kind of like how Ganon gets a lot of hits by coaxing people into approaching him, lots of Puff's bairs will be aimed to stop you from getting in, so use caution when approaching. In the case where Puff is actively approaching you with bairs, getting a blizzard out is a good idea. Even if the sort of continuous desynching that works against a lot of characters isn't always reliable against Puff, lots of isolated Nana blizzards still tend to work well since they cleanly out-range anything Puff has and generally aren't easy to punish.
Maybe I'm just bad, but rarely (never?) when playing this game do I say "Jiggs cannot bair or rest me if I try to attack"
Binx
Smash Master
Ahaha, yeah I can agree here as well. I kept getting trapped on ledges, if I got hit towards one I could rarely find a safe moment to get through. Doing anything is terrifying haha. I got him down to a stock I think all 3 games I played but I was 3-0'd and didn't really have any solid ideas of what to do better.
Roller
Smash Legend
So. I entered a Melee tourney yesterday and didn't do terribly. Duck (the MI samus) says I could actually be good if I just work on my edgeguarding. And I've basically decided to start actually trying in this game. [Have been a Brawl ICs main for a while now]
Teach me the ways of Melee ICs.
Also, Trail. You coming to any MI tourneys any time soon? (aka the big house) I'd love to get some tips from you in person.
Alsoalso. Hey, Fly!
Teach me the ways of Melee ICs.
Also, Trail. You coming to any MI tourneys any time soon? (aka the big house) I'd love to get some tips from you in person.
Alsoalso. Hey, Fly!
john!
Smash Hero
you are wise to seek tutelage from Trail.
ignore this heathen and his "guides", they will provide a mere fraction of the wisdom that Trail could impart unto you.
ignore this heathen and his "guides", they will provide a mere fraction of the wisdom that Trail could impart unto you.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Hey new guy. Pull blizzard and dash dance desync. Bread and butta.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Hey Roller, welcome to the Melee ICs board. The guides are a decent start and you can ask any other questions you have here. If you're feeling bold, you could even make new threads, although most of the action happens in here.
Fly why u so hard to contact outside of smashboards. Are PMs really the best way to get in contact with you LOL