Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Kyu Puff]

Smasher: If I'm interpreting that right, the way I suggested should work anyways. Turnaround d-smash comes out just as fast as grab, and Nana would be free to d-smash or grab by herself.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

The problem with the turnaround dsmash desynch out of jab is that nana can't grab in the opposite direction that Popo is facing. However if you want to sacrifice like 8 frames(and that's if you're being frame-perfect), you can jab to a pivot dsmash while facing the opponent(ie, dash away and pivot the opposite direction in 2 frames, methinks) so that popo lands the dsmash on shield and you can option select with nana. There isn't a lot she can do against rolling away though aside from nanapult but that hasn't been viable for years.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I think it would be better to just jab -> d-smash -> d-smash. Desynched d-smash shield pressure is actually pretty solid, and after Nana's d-smash you could follow up with a grab if you want.

(Note: I need to fix that thread because it turns out I was wrong about b-air's hitbox...)

 

[Smasher89]

Fly- Yea spacing that jab could work, even though getting that in a couple of times in a match seems (in today technical level) very hard even though it can work.

Jason-Hmm, maybe a wavejab gives frames from the jump that can help achieving that jabgrab.

Kyu puff-Desynched dsmash on shield IS very interesting


Dsmash ending might be to slow I guess since the thing I want to achieve with that jab>grab is "go through melees Rock/paper/scissors game".

Since jab beats spotdodge and gives a bit shieldstun, grab beats shield, if they bufferdodge, grab with Popo.
Nana grab, with handoffskills should lead to a Popograb>wobbling


Can wavejab or jab>ftilt work to get a Nanagrab maybe?

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I've done desynched dsmashes on shield into a SHFair to bait a shieldgrab and then made Nana dsmash as soon as they grabbed me for the KO.

It was cool, albeit impractical when I should have just grabbed.

It DOES trick the DI since the ganon that grabbed me was most likely going for a Dthrow, though.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Does anybody else here like to WD through the opponent in certain situations to get behind them and grab?

I find it's really reliable with SoPo ... and very tricky.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

It seems so simple that it just shouldn't work ever.

That's probably why it may work.

 

[ChivalRuse]

People can usually react to ICs wavedashing toward them. They usually won't react by doing something that hits behind them, and you can usually bank on just barely being able to get through them before you get impeded by any hitboxes. That's why it works well if you use it in moderation.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I dunno, that usually means that you have to wavedash closer to them, which means they can probably hit you out of the 15 frames of startup. Like peach, if she sees you WD towards her could just do a reactionary dsmash. And at best, you shield it. At worst, you get ****ed hardcore.

 

[ChivalRuse]

This works against Peach in some situations. You can wd through her and then some so that you're out of d-smash range on the other side of her. Then when she d-smashes you get a free whatever.

Not recommended if you have Nana with you though, because the risk is higher.

 

[Wobbles]

Not quite what you're talking about, but really if you just know where they're gonna go and what they're gonna do... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVjGW4LQ350#t=7m55s...not a risk at all!

 

[ChivalRuse]

I guess you make a good point: there's no risk if you know what they're gonna do.

 

[smakis]

if you shield peach's dsmash facing her you get a free grab though =P (im almost positive that we have frame advantage on wd oos > grab, at least it feels like it)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Wavedash (14 frames) + grab (7 frames) = 21 frames. The first hit of d-smash occurs on frame 5/6, and supposedly has 14 frames of shield stun. The d-smash is 39 frames total.

So 6+14 = 20.

20 + 21 = 41.

41 > 39.

Looks like there isn't enough frame advantage. Peach can spotdodge in time apparently.

 

[choknater]

happy new year ic boards

 

[smakis]

Wavedash (14 frames) + grab (7 frames) = 21 frames. The first hit of d-smash occurs on frame 5/6, and supposedly has 14 frames of shield stun. The d-smash is 39 frames total.

So 6+14 = 20.

20 + 21 = 41.

41 > 39.

Looks like there isn't enough frame advantage. Peach can spotdodge in time apparently.

doesn't spotdodge have like 4 frames of startup before you go invincible? Even if her jab is 2 frames dashgrab should beat her

all I know is that it usually works x), and you can always jab to counter the spotdodge/jab (though she can potentially cc, it's a guessing game)

edit: read that all characters gain invincibility after 2 frames, so 41 vs 41?

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I find such framedata useful and I like information to be presented in such a manner.

 

[ChivalRuse]

doesn't spotdodge have like 4 frames of startup before you go invincible? Even if her jab is 2 frames dashgrab should beat her

all I know is that it usually works x), and you can always jab to counter the spotdodge/jab (though she can potentially cc, it's a guessing game)

edit: read that all characters gain invincibility after 2 frames, so 41 vs 41?

Spotdodge has active invincibility on frame 2.

If, on the other hand, you jab Peach, but she CC'ed rather than spotdodging, you'll just eat a CC d-smash, which sucks.

It is kind of a guessing game, but ICs are at a disadvantage because it's Peach who gets to initiate.

 

[DoH]

Also Peach can just jab you out of the grab because it's supafast.

And wobbles' youtube account is here

http://www.youtube.com/user/ICWobbles

 

[smakis]

tournament coming up, looking for some advice =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DTszfjGMVU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbXe9arjMrU&feature=related

they are a bit outdated, and the set vs VA was just plain awful but any pointes would be really helpful. Think my main weakness these games was that I was too afraid of wobbling immediately after a grab (I usually start right away without nana jabbing), instead I would always try to squeeze a blizzard in before the wobble.

About peach jabbing, pretty sure it comes out at frame two (earliest), which again would be 41 vs 41, and in case of a clinch the grab wins, right? (though if she outranges you..)

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's a lot easier for Peach to d-smash to jab frame perfect than it is for ICs to WD out of shield the instant shield stun ends, space the wd correctly, and grab the instant the wd ends.

Thanks for the link, Landon.

 

[smakis]

dunno, just done it so many times now so I don't find it that hard anymore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbXe9arjMrU&feature=player_detailpage#t=66s

right at the start, it just looks like she is unable to spotdodge it, though I could be wrong, players have been sidestepping me when I thought I had it. Oh well, gief someone good with tas that can check for me >_>

 

[leffen]

afaik when she does it while facing away the last hit doesnt hit ( the one in her front ), so you have a bigger window.

 

[smakis]

This might sound weird but my muscle memory tells me it's the same timing, but take what I say with a grain of salt, this is all my own experiences without any proof to back it up =P. It just looked like she was still crouching when the grab connected (don't know if peach's dsmash has iasa).

edit: fan va du poppar upp lite varstans på smashboards leffen helt random =P, gief msn för lite seriös theorycrafting

 

[ChivalRuse]

Frame data isn't theory crafting. xP

 

[smakis]

never said it was ; )

 

[john!]

dunno, just done it so many times now so I don't find it that hard anymore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbXe9arjMrU&feature=player_detailpage#t=66s

right at the start, it just looks like she is unable to spotdodge it, though I could be wrong, players have been sidestepping me when I thought I had it. Oh well, gief someone good with tas that can check for me >_>

doesn't peach also suffer from lag when she hits with dsmash? i don't think that's accounted for in the frame data (especially because she hit both popo and nana).

 

[Winston]

Yeah, chival's calculation didn't take the hitlag into account.

It is possible to get the grab before peach is able to spotdodge if only the first hit of dsmash connects.

source: SuperDoodleMan's frame data

 

[ChivalRuse]

I didn't know how to factor the hitlag in, that's why. I fail.

 

[smakis]

I was going to suggest that but I deleted it since I thought hitlag was accounted for in the 14 frames x), just glad that I was right <3. Baiting newbie peaches into dsmashing was how I survived in the beginning rofl.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Nooooooob.


<3

 

[Vts]

Bleh the guide is almost done just did the long part and it sucked.

Maybe a video would have been easier lol.

new thing that Vts is trying to do.

1. Wavedash out of shield into pivot d-smash
2. Wavelanding into desyncs
3. Hand-off, cus i'm a scrub and need to sit down and learn it all

 

[smakis]

I'm trying to get uair ac down, standing/running is easy but if you wavedash around like crazy it's so damn hard to ac uair immediately afterwards, I fail more than I succeed so far >_>

 

[ChivalRuse]

It takes work, but I'm convinced the best way to do it is by jamming and holding up on the control stick right as you short hop (during the jump frames, so that hitting up doesn't cause you to double jump). This way, you're already holding up, and you only have to press A to uair.

Practice, practice, practice.

^ Have you tried that?

 

[Binx]

Bleh the guide is almost done just did the long part and it sucked.

Maybe a video would have been easier lol.

new thing that Vts is trying to do.

1. Wavedash out of shield into pivot d-smash
2. Wavelanding into desyncs
3. Hand-off, cus i'm a scrub and need to sit down and learn it all

sounds awesome, yeah I need to learn the handoff too, I just play smart and hope that works out, i really need to learn that though I can't even tell you how many times I would have won a match that I ended up losing if everytime i grabbed near an edge they died.

Lemme know how the waveland desynch works I waveland all the time and that would be the most awesome thing ever, who acts first during it? popo or nana?

 

[Kyu Puff]

^ Have you tried that?

I still like my way...

Your way probably works, but I feel like even if you learn the timing, you might mess up occasionally and double jump or something. Tilting the control stick might be trickier to learn, but once you have it down you can't really go wrong.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Like I said before, I have trouble tilting the stick immediately after a wavedash or run, otherwise I'd probably use your method.

 

[Vts]

sounds awesome, yeah I need to learn the handoff too, I just play smart and hope that works out, i really need to learn that though I can't even tell you how many times I would have won a match that I ended up losing if everytime i grabbed near an edge they died.

Lemme know how the waveland desynch works I waveland all the time and that would be the most awesome thing ever, who acts first during it? popo or nana?

you waveland off a platform and before nana is off the platform u can do an aerial or wait and do an ice block and nana will land on the ground while u do an ice block.

its uses are kind of nifty like waveland off platform into nair and before you land u can make nana do a nana-pult

 

[smakis]

tilting isn't the hard part (i **** at handoffs, tilting the stick is of no issue to me =)), it's moving my thumb fast enough to the a button after short hopping =P. My thumb gets all tense like it's using all it's power to shorthop > move to a button, but im getting there =)

edit: the above *****, I love wavelanding, and desynching from it would ****, gotta learn to do that tomorrow

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Popo always acts first from a waveland

If you do a perfect waveland though, I think popo slides too far for nana to actually do anything.


Also, pivot Dsmash is redonkulous. I prefer Pivot Fsmash though against certain characters.