General Final Fantasy Discussion - Final Fantasy XII remake incoming!

[Rutger]

I have more JRPGs on handheld systems than I do for any other genre on any other system.

Handhelds are something of a JRPG goldmine this generation and I honestly don't care if it stays that way.

I doubt we would get to see any hardcore oldschool first person JRPGs like SMT Strange Journey and Etrian Odyssey on home consoles. This is a genre that honestly doesn't need top of the line hardware to work at its best, even if a fun game with FFXIII's visuals would be awesome.

I wouldn't say that JRPGs are faulty in their design because of developers refusing to adopt a western design. When traditional mechanics are used right then a JRPG can still be great even if it doesn't do anything new, but this could just be an easy genre to screw up, a poor battle system or story/pacing can quickly turn a game into something boring with next to no redeeming qualities, like FFXIII. Adopting too much might just end up changing the genre of the game, it's not impossible for a WRPG to come out of Japan, and not necessarily a bad thing, just look at Demon/Dark Souls(I've wanted to give these games a try sometime too, they look fun.) One of the worst things going for JRPGs in general though(but also not necessarily a bad thing) would probably be that most are developed with only Japan in mind, and it's not unreasonable for a small Japanese company to only focus on Japan, but that also means that many games will always have trouble catching on here.

 

[Luigitoilet]

How the hell do I reliably morph a Master Tonberry in FFVII? You can't sense/scan them, but I think they have 40,000 hp but still it's a crapshoot because i never know when to have my non-morphing characters stop attacking.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Well just keep a mental note. after the 38th or 39th hit just use Yuffie to hit with morph with her Conformer. It does normal damage so it's easier to morph with.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well just keep a mental note. after the 38th or 39th hit just use Yuffie to hit with morph with her Conformer. It does normal damage so it's easier to morph with.

^What he said. Master Tonberries have 44,444 HP. There should be a scan spell of some kind (probably called "Scan", I haven't played in a few years) that keeps track of the opponent's HP. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Conformer deal 0 damage if used against an ally?

 

[Sarix]

I wouldn't say that JRPGs are faulty in their design because of developers refusing to adopt a western design. When traditional mechanics are used right then a JRPG can still be great even if it doesn't do anything new, but this could just be an easy genre to screw up, a poor battle system or story/pacing can quickly turn a game into something boring with next to no redeeming qualities, like FFXIII. Adopting too much might just end up changing the genre of the game, it's not impossible for a WRPG to come out of Japan, and not necessarily a bad thing, just look at Demon/Dark Souls(I've wanted to give these games a try sometime too, they look fun.) One of the worst things going for JRPGs in general though(but also not necessarily a bad thing) would probably be that most are developed with only Japan in mind, and it's not unreasonable for a small Japanese company to only focus on Japan, but that also means that many games will always have trouble catching on here.

I do agree with a lot of this about JRPGs as well. One of the best JRPGs in my opinion is Skies of Arcadia even though it is rife with classic tropes it still felt like a breath of fresh air because it came out in a time when JRPGs were trying too hard to follow FFVII's example. While the story was a very classic MacGuffin search quest it was strongly done because it had a lot of justification in its setting and is one of the only games I've ever seen to have multiple ethnicities and cultures like the real world.

I do agree as well that culture centrism is what most likely is hurting JRPGs currently; which does make sense as JRPGs dominate Japan's game market in profitability. As you said there is nothing wrong with this but it will limit the audience for that game.

I did lol at you mentioning FFXIII though, that game is a joke in terms of game design.

 

[Bing]

I do agree. Forgive me for being too mainstream, but Skyrim's a pretty awesome WRPG. I can't think of too many JPRGs that really stood out, as sad as that is.

Whos that in your pic Sol?


Also been playing through FFX. Love this game. Just got to Seymour Flux. A bit stuck lol.. He's really difficult.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Whos that in your pic Sol?


Also been playing through FFX. Love this game. Just got to Seymour Flux. A bit stuck lol.. He's really difficult.

Isn't that the one where you have to like...zombify your party at one point?

 

[Bing]

Yeah he uses a Lance that inflicts Zombie, then in the same turn combos and uses Auto-life for the Auto-Kill.

 

[finalark]

I do agree with a lot of this about JRPGs as well. One of the best JRPGs in my opinion is Skies of Arcadia even though it is rife with classic tropes it still felt like a breath of fresh air because it came out in a time when JRPGs were trying too hard to follow FFVII's example. While the story was a very classic MacGuffin search quest it was strongly done because it had a lot of justification in its setting and is one of the only games I've ever seen to have multiple ethnicities and cultures like the real world.

As someone who played the game two years ago I can say that this is very true. Although I don't know about the whole "multiple ethnicities" thing. More like various stereotypes. Regardless, Skies' self-conscious attitude towards its overuse of traditional JRPG cliches is part of what made the game so fun in an era in which every game was trying to be dark and gritty. It doesn't shine as well today due to the abundance of similar games on the DS and PSP but its still a really solid game.

I do agree as well that culture centrism is what most likely is hurting JRPGs currently; which does make sense as JRPGs dominate Japan's game market in profitability. As you said there is nothing wrong with this but it will limit the audience for that game.

I think its that JRPGs have gotten stale for the generation upon generation of western console gamers that were used to playing them in a Japanese dominated market. To western console players the idea of WRPGs being the big thing is relatively new.

I did lol at you mentioning FFXIII though, that game is a joke in terms of game design.

Elaborate. In terms of game design, FFXIII is almost identical to FFX. A lot of people seem to like X well enough.

 

[Luigitoilet]

^What he said. Master Tonberries have 44,444 HP. There should be a scan spell of some kind (probably called "Scan", I haven't played in a few years) that keeps track of the opponent's HP. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Conformer deal 0 damage if used against an ally?

Read what I said. Scan doesn't work on Master Tonberry. I'm not the type to keep a mental note of the damage done in my head. I'm bad at math. I think the Conformer just does normal damage when morphing. I suppose I could just do 4x-slash for 9999, then use Morph with Yuffie.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Whos that in your pic Sol?

It's Poison, from Final Fight.

Also been playing through FFX. Love this game. Just got to Seymour Flux. A bit stuck lol.. He's really difficult.

Isn't there some kind of equipment that protects against the zombie status? It's been nearly a decade since I've last played FFX, so I forgot.

Read what I said. Scan doesn't work on Master Tonberry. I'm not the type to keep a mental note of the damage done in my head. I'm bad at math. I think the Conformer just does normal damage when morphing. I suppose I could just do 4x-slash for 9999, then use Morph with Yuffie.

Huh, I thought Scan would work. Then in that case, just do what I bolded. Dealing 9999 damage four times puts it at 4448, which is enough for the Conformer to finish it off, especially since the Conformer's damage is dependent on the foe's level, so yeah.

 

[finalark]

It's Poison, from Final Fight.

Also a trap.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Also a trap.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Speaking of which:

 

[Sarix]

As someone who played the game two years ago I can say that this is very true. Although I don't know about the whole "multiple ethnicities" thing. More like various stereotypes. Regardless, Skies' self-conscious attitude towards its overuse of traditional JRPG cliches is part of what made the game so fun in an era in which every game was trying to be dark and gritty. It doesn't shine as well today due to the abundance of similar games on the DS and PSP but its still a really solid game.

I do agree that they were stereotypical but I felt it was definitely more refreshing to see a game that had more races than just Japanese people trying to look Caucasian. I do feel that it is true that it doesn't shine as well since most JRPGs are on a sliding scale of depressing to saccharine happy.

I think its that JRPGs have gotten stale for the generation upon generation of western console gamers that were used to playing them in a Japanese dominated market. To western console players the idea of WRPGs being the big thing is relatively new.

I do agree with this point as well. Japan has not gotten worse at developing games but the Western market has been booming and studios pop up like dandelions with vastly different ideas because of differences in culture influence.

Elaborate. In terms of game design, FFXIII is almost identical to FFX. A lot of people seem to like X well enough.

Don't take this as me being a snob but, I've never said I liked FFX. I like games from the FF series but X is not one of them. The second I started moving in XIII I could see their references in a heartbeat to X. The plot aside of XIII (that's whole different critique), the combat is way too uninvolving even for turn-based combat, the lack of any control over the AI party aside from role changing made the AI flaws in Persona 3 shine as honest mistakes, and the high cooldown broke the pacing all the time. The way they changed menu as well in combat was also really awkward to adjust to personally and I felt they could've just kept the classic setup.

The linearity was boring and I felt hurt the environments because I felt like I was in a museum exhibit rather than a world. And what became really apparent to me in the first and only two hours I could manage of it was that they had focused way too much on the characters themselves without really trying to make the gameplay feel innovative and engaging. The only thing gameplay wise I liked was the little convos the characters had while traveling, I thought it was practical and creative.

There's are so many things wrong with XIII but most of what's wrong with it that I can draw parallels to X with are in the story.

 

[Rutger]

Elaborate. In terms of game design, FFXIII is almost identical to FFX. A lot of people seem to like X well enough.

I love how this argument always comes up but never takes into account the possibility that just maybe the person that hates FFXIII also hates FFX.

:3

 

[Sarix]

I love how this argument always comes up but never takes into account the possibility that just maybe the person that hates FFXIII also hates FFX.

:3

I've noticed that too. I don't hate FFX myself it's just not that impressive.

 

[Bing]

Yeah its that Zombie BullCrap

I need to travel all the way back down Mt.Gagedzet(Can't Spell) to buy some Remedy's to have Rikku Customize that Prevent Zombie. I also need to raise Kimahri's Overdrive so I can use his overdrive to cast Mighty Guard. All Aeons already have their Overdrives.

Battle plan. Open with Tidus and cast Haste on Yuna. Have Yuna Protect Tidus, Lulu and Yuna. Tidus haste self. Have Lulu cast Bio on Seymour and switch For Kimahri. On Kimahri's next turn, use his overdrive to cast mightyguard. Then rotate through all the aeons overdrives. Now hopefully that protect is active, everyone can survive the cleaver. At some point he's going to dispell, immediately cast Protect with Yuna and Haste with Tidus. Switch Kimahri for Auron(Highest HP) incase he gets another cleaver attack out before I can cast Protect on everyone(So everyone survives) Now use all the characters overdrives while healing with either Yuna or Rikku(Al Bhed Potions are amazing)

Any thoughts?

 

[LivewiresXe]

My thought would be get Zel-er, Wakka, sorry, the "Attack Reels" or whatever it's called part of his Overdrive. Apparently if you get that high enough it can like...OHKO bosses.

 

[Bing]

Yeah I heard that I just dont like using Wakka at all. His Sphere Grid and everyones around his is balls for the most part.

 

[finalark]

I do agree that they were stereotypical but I felt it was definitely more refreshing to see a game that had more races than just Japanese people trying to look Caucasian. I do feel that it is true that it doesn't shine as well since most JRPGs are on a sliding scale of depressing to saccharine happy.

Somebody here likes TV Tropes.

Don't take this as me being a snob but, I've never said I liked FFX. I like games from the FF series but X is not one of them. The second I started moving in XIII I could see their references in a heartbeat to X. The plot aside of XIII (that's whole different critique), the combat is way too uninvolving even for turn-based combat, the lack of any control over the AI party aside from role changing made the AI flaws in Persona 3 shine as honest mistakes, and the high cooldown broke the pacing all the time. The way they changed menu as well in combat was also really awkward to adjust to personally and I felt they could've just kept the classic setup.

Well that's that. Generally the rule is that if you didn't like FFX then you didn't like FFXIII. As far as menus go I'd gladly take XIII's sleek and stylish ones over the boring old blue blocks. Besides, if things weren't changed every once and a while we'd never get anywhere. As for combat, turn based combat has its limits and I feel like XIII's combat was fine if you spend the ten seconds needed to wrap your head around it. Even though its not turn based doesn't mean its bad.

The linearity was boring and I felt hurt the environments because I felt like I was in a museum exhibit rather than a world. And what became really apparent to me in the first and only two hours I could manage of it was that they had focused way too much on the characters themselves without really trying to make the gameplay feel innovative and engaging

.

Welcome to Final Fantasy. If you haven't noticed, FF's game play evolved very, very slowly and the focus has always been the focus (with the exceptions being 1, 3 and 5).

The only thing gameplay wise I liked was the little convos the characters had while traveling, I thought it was practical and creative.

That's not really game play but I agree with you.

There's are so many things wrong with XIII but most of what's wrong with it that I can draw parallels to X with are in the story.

Again, if you liked X you'll like XIII and if you didn't like X then you won't like XIII. Easy as that.

BTW I'm in the "13 is good" boat.

 

[Minato]

I liked X. I did not like XIII though.

 

[Rutger]

I dislike FFX and FFXIII for different reasons.


I like the battle system and the music in X, if I didn't despise the story so much I would probably think that it is a pretty cool game honestly.


With FFXIII, well the linearity has never bothered me and the graphics are amazing, but I never cared about what was happening in the story, the music was not really memorable outside of the battle theme imo but it could have been worse, and I hated the battle system.

It was the battle system that really got to me, the pacing was bad with that guard break thing or whatever it was called, and I felt like I wasn't doing much more than mashing specific attacks at specific times. I don't know, it somehow ended up feeling even more autopilot than FFXII's battle system, and the sad thing is that FFXIII felt like it desperately wanted to have(or emulate) a real time battle system to me.


So that argument of "if you dislike FFX then you will dislike FFXIII" still seems kind of silly to me. :/

 

[LivewiresXe]

I liked X. I did not like XIII though.

I agree. I thought X was an amazing game and actually kind of liked it better than VII and better than IV. Weird...I find myself ranking games that come after FFVII higher than it. I mean, VI's still the very best Final Fantasy in my opinion, but with always feeling VIII is better than VII, to lately feeling X is better, to now as I play IX a bit, finding it to be better than VII, it just seems it keeps getting pushed further down.

 

[finalark]

I
So that argument of "if you dislike FFX then you will dislike FFXIII" still seems kind of silly to me. :/

I use that argument because, generally, its true. FFX and XIII in terms of game play are very similar (both very linear, the sphere grid and crystaltormium are very similar) with the biggest difference being battle the battle systems.

Of course, there are exceptions.

 

[Lythium]

It was the battle system that really got to me, the pacing was bad with that guard break thing or whatever it was called, and I felt like I wasn't doing much more than mashing specific attacks at specific times. I don't know, it somehow ended up feeling even more autopilot than FFXII's battle system, and the sad thing is that FFXIII felt like it desperately wanted to have(or emulate) a real time battle system to me.

I have to disagree with you there.

I really liked XIII's battle system, and I found it to be very dynamic. Of course, I doubt anyone would have fun, if you're just hitting auto-battle every time your meter charges up. Most of the time, I would be inputting the commands manually anyway to get the most of my damage, once I got the hang of it. Or refreshing the ATB gauge constantly. The stagger meter is incredibly rewarding once you get it, and timing your juggles once you launched an opponent so they couldn't attack you was an interesting aspect of the battle system.

So, I guess I can agree that if you just sit back and mash away with auto-battle, it's probably boring. But if you take the time to delve into the battle system, it's surprisingly fun and deep. It's probably one of my favourite systems of recent JRPGs.

/also in the XIII is good camp

 

[Rutger]

I'm probably selling XIII's battle system a bit short honestly. I think that I would usually input the commands manually, but I felt like I was generally inputting the same commands depending on the phase. Stagger was probably the worst thing about it though, I wouldn't say that it is a terrible idea(but I still don't like it personally) but the way it was executed really killed the pacing for me, if it just didn't take so damn long to activate I would be more lenient towards it.

Like I said, it felt like it really wanted to be a real time battle system instead to me, but Versus XIII is supposed to do that if it ever comes out.

I can see why people would like it, but it really didn't work for me.

 

[Sarix]

Somebody here likes TV Tropes.

Guilty, and it is a good site for thinking of how different forms of entertainment are structured. I reference it a lot to improve upon being able to critique work.

Well that's that. Generally the rule is that if you didn't like FFX then you didn't like FFXIII. As far as menus go I'd gladly take XIII's sleek and stylish ones over the boring old blue blocks. Besides, if things weren't changed every once and a while we'd never get anywhere. As for combat, turn based combat has its limits and I feel like XIII's combat was fine if you spend the ten seconds needed to wrap your head around it. Even though its not turn based doesn't mean its bad.

I have no problem with mixing up the battle system formula I just felt that the cooldown times from the ATB system and how Stagger functioned made the pacing either very fast or very slow which I personally can't stand in games, I prefer an overall moderate pace at minimum. I'm not really for them having to be turn-based but it just felt like a failed attempt at trying to be real time and that they were only half-committed to the design.

Welcome to Final Fantasy. If you haven't noticed, FF's game play evolved very, very slowly and the focus has always been the focus (with the exceptions being 1, 3 and 5).

I've played multiple Final Fantasy games so I'm well aware of the design. I don't mind focus on characters but I felt XIII took it to such an extreme with a cast of character's I didn't even like or found relatable for the most part which kinda murders that character focus formula. I have no problems with some linearity but when a game is literally composed of glorified hallways and a story as predictable as a saturday morning cartoon they have failed in my eyes at designing a believable and habitable world and telling an engaging story.

That's not really game play but I agree with you.

True, I would probably consider it a passive element of game play though.

Again, if you liked X you'll like XIII and if you didn't like X then you won't like XIII. Easy as that.

BTW I'm in the "13 is good" boat.

That's a Slippery Slope Fallacy, I know plenty of fans of X who hate XIII with a passion. I kinda figured you were part of that line of thinking from your reply.

I'm usually pretty objective with how I critique games as I gave up on fan loyalty years ago. I do think there are good points to XIII but there were also massive problems with it that kept me from liking it. I would be more forgiving if I didn't despise the story and the characters SO MUCH. And once a game's story fails it's gameplay should back it up, but XIII's gameplay didn't, which hurt it greatly.

 

[Bing]

This is going to sound dumb but did they make FFXIII for the PS2? I dont own a ps3 and once Im done FFX I'd like to play FFXIII

 

[Lythium]

Yeah, my boyfriend is one of those people who's in the "love X, hate XIII" party as well.

snip

That's fair, to each their own. :3c

This is going to sound dumb but did they make FFXIII for the PS2? I dont own a ps3 and once Im done FFX I'd like to play FFXIII

Nah, just PS3 and 360.

 

[Bing]

Damnit. Alright looks like I have to finally getting around to playing FFX-2.

 

[Lythium]

I feel like X-2 generally falls into the you either love it or hate it category, haha.

But if you have a PS2, you have access to some of the best JRPGS out there imo. So those should keep you busy for a little while, if you're so inclined.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Aye, there's a TON of not only good JRPGs, but RPGs in general on the PS2, and even MORE on the PS1. I probably feel from SNES to PS2 is like the golden age of RPGs, and that the GBA-DS-3DS is keeping it alive. Though, the PSP/Vita has some good ones too.


One FFX-2 related question though. Why on earth does Yuna go from using a staff to a pair of handguns? I mean, I'm not opposed or anything, but still, seems odd.

 

[Omni]

Persona 3, 4, and FES to be specific.
Pretty much everything Atlus.

 

[Bing]

Its funny you ask that, I've been reading up on the characters of FFX in my spare time at work and basically it comes down to multiple things. 1.) The current Spira (FFX-2) is during a calm and less about Yevon and Religion and all that Jazz, so the transformation to Gunner helps to symbolize this. 2.) Her new outfit is sexier and more revealing, also Neo-modern. So a change in character was needed to match her new personality(Shes clearly a brighter person, happier in the calm when compared to FFX). Now it should also be noted that her hair is similar to Tidus' as is her personality. Now this is my own thought but Tidus used a sword, Yuna does come off as someone who shield have a sword as she is a fairly small and slender woman. So instead of a sword, Guns just seemed to be an interesting idea(Personally I like it )

Anywho thats mostly what I read + a thought of my own.

For those who dont want to read all that, heres a quick summary. It symbolizes a change in times and personalities from Relgion, against Machina to an acceptance of Machina and less about Yevon.(The calm) Also shows how Yuna has become happier, and more open and how Tidus as become aprt of who she is.

 

[asianaussie]

you know that Warrior dressphere Yuna literally wields the Brotherhood, right?

playing duodecim atm, good fun

re: livewires, because guns are sexy and ffx-2 cheapshotted with sex appeal and not much else

 

[LivewiresXe]

Its funny you ask that, I've been reading up on the characters of FFX in my spare time at work and basically it comes down to multiple things. 1.) The current Spira (FFX-2) is during a calm and less about Yevon and Religion and all that Jazz, so the transformation to Gunner helps to symbolize this. 2.) Her new outfit is sexier and more revealing, also Neo-modern. So a change in character was needed to match her new personality(Shes clearly a brighter person, happier in the calm when compared to FFX). Now it should also be noted that her hair is similar to Tidus' as is her personality. Now this is my own thought but Tidus used a sword, Yuna does come off as someone who shield have a sword as she is a fairly small and slender woman. So instead of a sword, Guns just seemed to be an interesting idea(Personally I like it )

Anywho thats mostly what I read + a thought of my own.

For those who dont want to read all that, heres a quick summary. It symbolizes a change in times and personalities from Relgion, against Machina to an acceptance of Machina and less about Yevon.(The calm) Also shows how Yuna has become happier, and more open and how Tidus as become aprt of who she is.

That's actually a pretty cool explanation, though asianaussie's is nice too. Sure one handgun would've been nice, but everything's better when it's dual-wielded, especially guns like that.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

re: livewires, because guns are sexy and ffx-2 cheapshotted with sex appeal and not much else

So much this.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Bing]

Holy **** I just read over my post... I made spelling mistakes everywhereeee. My bad guys lol

 

[Omni]

I just beat FFXIII-2.

Man... Squaresoft... man... what happened to you?

 

[Lythium]

I liked XIII-2. :3