General Final Fantasy Discussion - Final Fantasy XII remake incoming!

[Kuraudo]

Why do companies do anything?

I haven't seen the ending of FFVII so I honestly can't say if it's that vague or not. Having an open-ended ending for a movie or a game isn't always a bad thing though. Using FFXIII's open ending as an example, wondering what happened after the ending of that game is like wondering what happened to the seven dwarves from Snow White. How did the dwarves make ends meet after Snow White left? Were they able to keep their house clean? Was their mining operation successful? These questions are never answered because the focus of the story isn't on them, it's on Snow White, the prince, the witch, and strong subliminal context. Similarly, FFXIII was about the main characters' struggles as L'Cie and FFVII was, ultimately, about Cloud's struggle with his identity.

Again, I haven't seen the ending of FFVII, but I assume that they wouldn't have made it so ambiguous as to warrant a sequel movie being made of it to explain what happened. At least not in 1997 before Square was the financial equivalent of Disney in Japan. Nowadays I wouldn't put it past them. I mean hell, look at what happened with FFXIII.

SPOILERS FOR A 1997 GAME

Spoiler

After defeating Sephiroth, Cloud and the others escape from the Northern Crater as Holy awakens, watching from the Highwind as Meteor crashes into Midgar. Holy is there to hold it off, but it's not working, only creating even more destruction. The Lifestream surfaces from the Planet and joins with the Holy spell to stop Meteor. The game literally ends with Holy/Lifestream holding off Meteor as Midgar is destroyed with no chance of salvation whatsoever before transitioning to Aerith's face, alluding to her being the one that helped bring the Lifestream to the surface to try and hold off Meteor.

And that is literally how Final Fantasy VII ends. It took the 'On The Way to a Smile' novellas and Advent Children Complete to help carry on from the original.

To me, the story wasn't over. It wasn't over until Cloud confronted his past guilts and came around full circle, which is what I feel that Advent Children Complete did quite nicely.

 

[Gates]

I don't really see how Cloud "confronted his past" in Advent Children. If you mean seeing Aerith and Zack, I didn't really interpret that as "oh, he's confronting his past". I interpreted it as Cloud not being able to deal with grief. I can understand feeling sad a little while after they died, but two years is excessive.

 

[Kuraudo]

I know it's just a game,

But you try living Cloud's life and bouncing back as a bowl of sunshine or not caring and leaving it all behind.

 

[Gates]

It's not "bouncing back", it's about getting over it over a period of two years. I felt really sad when my grandfather died suddenly when I was 13. Two years later I had dealt with the grief and moved on with my life. If a skinny nerd from suburbia can deal with grief in the span of two years then a hardened mercenary ex-SOLDIER who is probably used to killing people and seeing them die should be able to as well, even if he was in love with Aerith (assuming the date scene with her in FFVII is the canonical one because otherwise he and she didn't show a ton of affection aside from the church scene).

And what's this about "living Cloud's life"? You mean being a delivery boy and living with a large breasted girl who would probably spring at the chance to have a relationship with you if you brought it up while taking care of your other friends' daughter and some other kid? That really could be a lot worse. I mean I know he has Geostigma, which is basically AIDS only it sounds cooler and I don't think you can catch it from drinking fountains, but his life really isn't as bad as someone would make it out to be.

 

[Kuraudo]

.......... you're serious, aren't you. lol

I could explain everything, but we'd be here all day.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

It's not "bouncing back", it's about getting over it over a period of two years. I felt really sad when my grandfather died suddenly when I was 13. Two years later I had dealt with the grief and moved on with my life. If a skinny nerd from suburbia can deal with grief in the span of two years then a hardened mercenary ex-SOLDIER who is probably used to killing people and seeing them die should be able to as well, even if he was in love with Aerith (assuming the date scene with her in FFVII is the canonical one because otherwise he and she didn't show a ton of affection aside from the church scene).

And what's this about "living Cloud's life"? You mean being a delivery boy and living with a large breasted girl who would probably spring at the chance to have a relationship with you if you brought it up while taking care of your other friends' daughter and some other kid? That really could be a lot worse. I mean I know he has Geostigma, which is basically AIDS only it sounds cooler and I don't think you can catch it from drinking fountains, but his life really isn't as bad as someone would make it out to be.

Lol...I love this.

But yeah, the complete version is a lot better of AC.

 

[crismas]

See... I enjoyed AC Complete it was SOOO much better than AC.

Do I think AC is a masterpiece? Not at all.

But seriously, I just watched it for what it was, fanservice. Who the hell wouldn't enjoy seeing their characters all re-done and cool looking (for the most part). I've just accepted that it is what it is, and enjoyed it for that reasoning. Because as much of a big FFVII fan I am, I could've done without it (story-line wise).

 

[finalark]

Speaking of the Aries-dating, why would anyone want to date Aries over Tifa anyway? Aries has zero personality, is inhumanly nice to the point where it comes off as fake and is somewhat manipulative.

Tifa on the other hand is brave and loyal and genuinely cares about her friends. Yeah, she can be clingy but in the end she wants to help the people she loves and does what she can for them.

Sure, Aries might be physically more attractive but Tifa is a far better person than Aries ever was.

 

[Kuraudo]

............ Aerith. (or Aeris if you're going with the mistranslation)

just saiyan.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I know people who are just as nice, or even nicer than the fictional character Aerith, so I think inhumanly nice is kinda insulting. :/

 

[*Tyson*]

Tifa for sure

 

[crismas]

Aeris def. had a personality imo. She was kinda sarcastic and funny, and I thought pretty brave when it came down to it seeing how she went off on her own to the forgotten capital to summon for Holy. She was most certainly flawed as well but overall wasn't anywhere near 'perfect' or 'boring'.

I used to dislike Aeris too a long time ago but I love her now but I'm still a bigger Tifa fan, always have been :3

 

[Gates]

Speaking of the Aries-dating, why would anyone want to date Aries over Tifa anyway? Aries has zero personality, is inhumanly nice to the point where it comes off as fake and is somewhat manipulative.

Tifa on the other hand is brave and loyal and genuinely cares about her friends. Yeah, she can be clingy but in the end she wants to help the people she loves and does what she can for them.

Sure, Aries might be physically more attractive but Tifa is a far better person than Aries ever was.

Aerith is a kind and caring person who's nice to pretty much everyone she meets. She's ditzy at times, but not obnoxiously so like other characters in the FF series (Selphie, Vanille, Rikku, Vaan, etc. even Yuffie is more annoying than Aerith). I wouldn't call her inhumanly nice because she obviously hates/fears Shinra and the Turks to the point of being willing to fight against them. I don't see how she's manipulative either.

That said, I still like Tifa more. It's rare to see a character as strong and resilient as Tifa in a video game and her love for Cloud is pretty much always there and always has been, which is pretty significant. I like Aerith, but a lot of her attraction to Cloud kind of seems like it stems partly from her just having a naturally nice and friendly personality and partly from Cloud being very similar to her first boyfriend, Zack (**COUGH**MIND MELD**COUGH**).

How is Aerith more physically attractive than Tifa? Or do you not like breasts?

............ Aerith. (or Aeris if you're going with the mistranslation)

just saiyan.

No, he's obviously talking about the gay sex minigame from God of War.

 

[finalark]

Aerith is a kind and caring person who's nice to pretty much everyone she meets. She's ditzy at times, but not obnoxiously so like other characters in the FF series (Selphie, Vanille, Rikku, Vaan, etc. even Yuffie is more annoying than Aerith). I wouldn't call her inhumanly nice because she obviously hates/fears Shinra and the Turks to the point of being willing to fight against them. I don't see how she's manipulative either.

Eh, maybe I was being too harsh on her. Regardless, I still think Tifa is a better character than Aerith.

Or do you not like breasts?

This is the most awkward question I've been asked in a long time.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Laguna vs Lightning

Some great gameplay from some well know Dissidia players.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

I call her Aeris simply because I always have. Meh.

 

[crismas]

Me toooooooooo, no worries. I was never a fan of saying "Aerith" and I was already used to "Aeris".

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Aerith sounds...weird.

So, got platinum on FFXIII before my 37" TV came in. What a shame.

MvC3 on it looks interesting, though.

Anyways, on the FF note, I actually miss XI sometimes..

 

[Minato]

To me, the story wasn't over. It wasn't over until Cloud confronted his past guilts and came around full circle, which is what I feel that Advent Children Complete did quite nicely.

To me, Advent Children felt unneeded. Even with VII's open ending, I thought everything was wrapped up nicely.
Sure Cloud had some regrets in the game, but once Cloud rejoined the party, he seemed to have moved on from his past troubles.

AC just did a 180 and made Cloud a little more depressed than he should be, imo.
Personally, I find Advent Children Cloud way too different from FFVII Cloud.

 

[crismas]

^ this x 48392849302840382943.

Seriously... after Cloud went through the lifestream with Tifa, he was whole again. He resolved issues on how he felt for Aeris (he gave a nice little speech on the Highwind about that) and you could see his real personality finally coming out (which is a complete dork hoo boy). I feel like that was all lost in AC where like Minato said, has reverted back, and tbh just for he sake of the film to exist.

 

[finalark]

To me, Advent Children felt unneeded. Even with VII's open ending, I thought everything was wrapped up nicely.
Sure Cloud had some regrets in the game, but once Cloud rejoined the party, he seemed to have moved on from his past troubles.

AC just did a 180 and made Cloud a little more depressed than he should be, imo.
Personally, I find Advent Children Cloud way too different from FFVII Cloud.

This. I get it, Cloud has it rough, but didn't he get over his problems at the end of VII? Do people just identify with a sulky, emo kid more than they do a pretty fun guy to be around who has weathered the worse and came out strong?

Also, AC (ORIGINAL VERSION) failed to explain to me exactly what the big deal is with geostigma. It doesn't seem to drag Cloud down too much given that he can jump fifty feet into the air and chop buildings in half despite having it.

 

[Black Waltz]

PARADIGM SHIFT: So why do you guys think

Spoiler

Shadow decided to stay behind at the end of VI?

 

[Gates]

He couldn't deal with being a father?

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

^ Because he can.

 

[Kuraudo]

This. I get it, Cloud has it rough, but didn't he get over his problems at the end of VII? Do people just identify with a sulky, emo kid more than they do a pretty fun guy to be around who has weathered the worse and came out strong?

Also, AC (ORIGINAL VERSION) failed to explain to me exactly what the big deal is with geostigma. It doesn't seem to drag Cloud down too much given that he can jump fifty feet into the air and chop buildings in half despite having it.

If you don't mind spoilers, they're here. Otherwise, wait until you see the remade one. About Geostigma,

Spoiler

The disease is expanded on a lot more. What Vincent said in the original is still true. The body trying to overcompensate for the infection (which is what happened after Meteor struck and the influence of Jenova was spread), in the end resulting in those open sores and marks on the body.

It's even speculated in-movie and probably most correct, that Sephiroth himself is the one responsible for how bad this Geostigma has become. Rufus and Cloud discuss it.

Cloud: Sephiroth is dead.
Rufus: Yes, but has his mind died? What if he somehow survived, coursing through the Lifestream undiffused?

Which is confirmed by how Sephiroth was choking and corrupting the Planet from the inside out with Geostigma.

In Advent Children Complete, you really do see the darker side of it. A man with the disease vomits up a lot of the black substance, choking and rotting out in an alleyway. Meanwhile that girl from the first movie that had the Moogle doll is expanded on more. Her little brother also has Geostigma and you get a pretty tough scene of her carrying the dead corpse of him on her back to get out of public (public? pretty damn disgusted by this and Geostigma). The main reason that Cloud can still manage is because it's only on his arm, and it's in a less severe state then most others; all it did was weaken him. When he was cured, he regained his full strength (that, and Cloud was never normal to begin with XD). The deaths of Aerith and Zack were what originally weighed down on Cloud in the past and lead to his depression. However, thanks to Tifa BEFORE the movie (On The Way to a Smile), he was able to overcome that and get back to his old self again.

Then Geostigma happened, and you can see (Marlene even finds out why Cloud left/got depressed in the first place, talking to him about that) how hard Cloud worked to find the cure for it. Mainly for the sake of Denzel who had it pretty bad. But when he HIMSELF suddenly got Geostigma, that was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. Denzel even ponders over that in bed and goes, "Guess I was the last straw...", Cloud felt helpless. How can he look after his own family if he can't even look after himself? And that's what brought on his guilt over Aerith, Zack, and now this whole disease, weighing on him as he distanced himself from his loved ones.

And so through more extended scenes, altered ones (Sephiroth vs. Cloud's ending is different and far less of a cop-out as well), we get Cloud's story of redemption, saving the Planet, finding forgiveness in himself for actions he had no control over, and in the end, becomes a stronger person for it.

There's more little things here and there, but yeah, Advent Children Complete is what the original should have been. Hope this helps.

 

[finalark]

^The above makes me want to go watch AC complete. The actually sounds like something that was given thought and effort as apposed to the fan service-fest of AC Original. Thanks for the explanation, it really does help make sense out of things.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Kuraudo to the rescue. Damn, you did what I was too lazy to do.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

I need to watch it...I bought it, but I haven't had time. Pokemon has consumed me now.. I'm infected!?

 

[finalark]

Pitching FF Forum RPG with some more details this time.

The concept:

In a world that draws elements from many different Final Fantasy worlds and stories, the power of the four elemental crystals is failing. The nations of the earth all blame each other, bringing even more instability to the world. A group of men of various backgrounds and motives set out in hopes of discovering why the power of the crystals if fading. On this journey they will learn to trust each other as they face a power greater than any of them could have ever imagined.

Players will create their characters including history, class, abilities, ect. And will PM them to me so they can be registered with registration coming on a first-come-first-serve basis. At a maximum of eight players, the game will begin with myself as a Dungeon Master-like figure overlooking the game, giving scenarios and playing as the NPCs.

The players will control the actions of their characters and the results of those actions. Players are expected to be responsible and respectful, mostly not painting themselves as god-like beings. It's no fun when you're a level 4523 billion Black Mage who can nuke anything but looking at it cross-eyes.

Any takers?

Also, you should have mention Dissidia mafia in here, Seph.

 

[Gates]

The deaths of Aerith and Zack were what originally weighed down on Cloud in the past and lead to his depression. However, thanks to Tifa BEFORE the movie (On The Way to a Smile), he was able to overcome that and get back to his old self again.

Then Geostigma happened, and you can see (Marlene even finds out why Cloud left/got depressed in the first place, talking to him about that) how hard Cloud worked to find the cure for it. Mainly for the sake of Denzel who had it pretty bad. But when he HIMSELF suddenly got Geostigma, that was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. Denzel even ponders over that in bed and goes, "Guess I was the last straw...", Cloud felt helpless. How can he look after his own family if he can't even look after himself? And that's what brought on his guilt over Aerith, Zack, and now this whole disease, weighing on him as he distanced himself from his loved ones.

See, that sounds more reasonable. I just don't remember them saying this in Advent Children, so maybe that's why I misinterpreted Cloud's depression.

^The above makes me want to go watch AC complete. The actually sounds like something that was given thought and effort as apposed to the fan service-fest of AC Original.

I agree. I think the added footage would have helped the film a lot more than hurt it, so why did they cut it in the first place? Was it just so they could make money off the original and then make more money off Complete? This is some George Lucas ****.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Pitching FF Forum RPG with some more details this time.

The concept:

In a world that draws elements from many different Final Fantasy worlds and stories, the power of the four elemental crystals is failing. The nations of the earth all blame each other, bringing even more instability to the world. A group of men of various backgrounds and motives set out in hopes of discovering why the power of the crystals if fading. On this journey they will learn to trust each other as they face a power greater than any of them could have ever imagined.

Players will create their characters including history, class, abilities, ect. And will PM them to me so they can be registered with registration coming on a first-come-first-serve basis. At a maximum of eight players, the game will begin with myself as a Dungeon Master-like figure overlooking the game, giving scenarios and playing as the NPCs.

The players will control the actions of their characters and the results of those actions. Players are expected to be responsible and respectful, mostly not painting themselves as god-like beings. It's no fun when you're a level 4523 billion Black Mage who can nuke anything but looking at it cross-eyes.

Any takers?

I'm up for it!

Also, you should have mention Dissidia mafia in here, Seph.

Well, I based my set up on players who already have experience in the game. I was considereing mentioning it in here, but I thought it wouldn't be fun for people just starting the game for the first time.

I also assumed that since I don't see any of you in the DGames mafia games that none of you would be interested anyways. (X1-12 promoted a newbie game in the Mario social thread an it didn't get many players from there.)

But now that you said that, I feel bad for not mentioning it. I promise that if I do make another FF themed game, I'll inform you guys first.

But if your still interested in Dissidia Mafia, you can sign in as a replacement for one of the players if they decide to drop out. (There's a high chance that you won't be able to play though, there's already 3 replacements signed in before you, and the chance that even one person decides to drop out is low on it's own.)

 

[Kuraudo]

See, that sounds more reasonable. I just don't remember them saying this in Advent Children, so maybe that's why I misinterpreted Cloud's depression.

I agree. I think the added footage would have helped the film a lot more than hurt it, so why did they cut it in the first place? Was it just so they could make money off the original and then make more money off Complete? This is some George Lucas ****.

I think they intended to have the original be the way it was. Then in a combination of grabbing money AND trying to regain some of that old VII feel, they made Advent Children Complete. Like they sent in what they thought was a kickass draft, but then gave it a second thought, and now with the remake we have our final draft of a story.

I recommend reading the novellas that entail a lot of what happens between the two years of the game and Advent Children if you haven't already. This series got milked, but when you read/know everything, it's fairly put together.

Oh, and speaking of Sephiroth vs. Cloud.

If you thought it was a lame way for Cloud to come back and defeat Sephiroth before, just by getting pinned to a wall and stabbed through the shoulder to get taunted?

**** is imminent. I'll stop talking so you guys can see the movie for yourselves. lol

 

[finalark]

I think this is my favorite thread on SWF.

 

[Spire]

I freaking love the discussions we have here. Just read through everything I missed because I knew it'd be worth it.

But freaking lol at Gates' analysis of AC.

I totally support the FF Forum RPG, but I don't enjoy playing PCs. I've always been a DM guy.

 

[finalark]

I freaking love the discussions we have here. Just read through everything I missed because I knew it'd be worth it.

Pretty much. Some days I wonder if I still stick around SWF just for this thread.

I totally support the FF Forum RPG, but I don't enjoy playing PCs. I've always been a DM guy.

I've always been a DM kind of guy too. I love building a world and story for people to partake in more than the other way around.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and this is awesome http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLqQAP27OnU&feature=related

 

[Kuraudo]

That hymn is awesome.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I love the discussion we have in here too.

I also love that we're all not totally full of ourselfs to disregard logic and reasoning like most fans are.

 

[finalark]

I also love that we're all not totally full of ourselfs to disregard logic and reasoning like most fans are.

This is my favorite part about this thread. The fact that we can be civil when we discuss and debate our favored franchise. Unlike most "fans" who insist that installment Y
is the best in the series and if you disagree then you are an idiot who is below them and can't appreciate true genius.

You and Kuraudo made me to a 180 on my opinion on FF7, actually. For the longest time I was a hater until you two came along and I realized the reason why I disliked it was the "fans." You guys made me realize that FF7 does have intelligent fans who actually enjoy the franchise past one installment. I ended up sitting down and replaying it the day I got my wisdom teeth out. I rather enjoyed it.

 

[Minato]

Yeah, it's some of the fans which hurts FFVII a lot. But it's a pretty great game.
I haven't played it in a few years, I should do another playthrough of it again.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

You don't know how happy this makes me feel. Thanks Finalark, that meant a-lot to me.