Pantsmann
Smash Lord
i'm absolutely sure that the bottom tier characters have been looked at less than the higher tiered ones. i don't think that's any secret.
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General Discussion
- Thread starter Vyse
- Start date
Karp-0S
Smash Journeyman
Because of that, would there be a lot of potential then if, say someone were to put the time into it?
I shall be that man. Ness for top tier.
I shall be that man. Ness for top tier.
Karp-0S
Smash Journeyman
A prime example of what I'm trying to say is how (before brawls release) there were several opinions that metaknight was going to be **** purely because of his lack of K.O. ability, correct me if I'm wrong. I know several people have agreed with me on this. We of course hadn't played much of him. Keep in mind this was before PAL release.
After the community started using him more, better strategies were developed and he's the tourney rolling ****off he is today.
Look at your average tourney character use for brawl and melee. I'm almost positive people don't use the lower half of the tier list.
Assume for a minute that Ness looked half as cool as Marth and was as appealing to play (From an aesthetic standpoint.) Not only would he have been more played, people would have devised ways in which to counter some of the other top tier heavyweights. I think play would have evolved differently.
I'm not asking for a 100% accurate tier list, I doubt that there will ever be one. I just think that the metagame as developed (in both melee and brawl) entirely too much around the characters which are the easiest to play and produce the most results with the least effort. (Not at all suggesting that fox is easy to play)
The low and bottom tier just deserve more credit then what they get is all. A lot more.
Not trying to stir the pot here at all fella's. Just my thoughts on issue surrounding metagame play in all things.
After the community started using him more, better strategies were developed and he's the tourney rolling ****off he is today.
Look at your average tourney character use for brawl and melee. I'm almost positive people don't use the lower half of the tier list.
Assume for a minute that Ness looked half as cool as Marth and was as appealing to play (From an aesthetic standpoint.) Not only would he have been more played, people would have devised ways in which to counter some of the other top tier heavyweights. I think play would have evolved differently.
I'm not asking for a 100% accurate tier list, I doubt that there will ever be one. I just think that the metagame as developed (in both melee and brawl) entirely too much around the characters which are the easiest to play and produce the most results with the least effort. (Not at all suggesting that fox is easy to play)
The low and bottom tier just deserve more credit then what they get is all. A lot more.
Not trying to stir the pot here at all fella's. Just my thoughts on issue surrounding metagame play in all things.
No, the metagame developed entirely around the characters which yield results. In this competitive community, people use what will win. When these characters keep winning, they go under scrutiny, a counter is desperately searched for, some level of equal ground is sought after. The metagame is a continual process of finding out what wins, and what stops that from winning.
Karp-0S
Smash Journeyman
Is that to say, you're 100% sure there is no way, at all, that any one of the lower tier could compete at a tournament level?
I think people take other people's word on what the metagame has to offer.
I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest that you couldn't consistently win with a lower tier'd character. Laziness and lack of information are the things which lead to our current metagame.
I have no doubt the Higher tierd characters are there because they deserve to be there. Competitive results prove this. I think the gap between tiers are closer than people realise.
I think people take other people's word on what the metagame has to offer.
I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest that you couldn't consistently win with a lower tier'd character. Laziness and lack of information are the things which lead to our current metagame.
I have no doubt the Higher tierd characters are there because they deserve to be there. Competitive results prove this. I think the gap between tiers are closer than people realise.
Sirias
Smash Champion
It's not worth playing low-tier characters if you're aiming to win.
There are those that go out and do well with ****e characters but it's like... 1/100.
Plus most of them only use low-tier for fun and (eventually) switch to better ones.
Basically Marth destroys every mid/low-tier.
If he wasn't there maybe you'd see more unused ones.
There are those that go out and do well with ****e characters but it's like... 1/100.
Plus most of them only use low-tier for fun and (eventually) switch to better ones.
Basically Marth destroys every mid/low-tier.
If he wasn't there maybe you'd see more unused ones.
isthattim?
Smash Ace
melee has been out for a ****long time and amazing players have done good things with low tiers. Almost all of these amazing players switch to a high tier character to go further/ keep winning.
Try all your life to make ness top tier though, you'll probs have fun.
Try all your life to make ness top tier though, you'll probs have fun.
planetstereo
Smash Ace
Melee has been out for a long time and the meta-game has developed hugely since its release. The thing is that the finding of a given piece of meta-data has an effect on the teir list as a whole. That is, if a new tech is found for a given character it will shift that character up the list and all other characters down. So basically if the metagame of a given character is not developed it naturally drops on the teir list. A good exmple of this is that Mario started relatively high on the teir list and over time has fallen to the level he is now.
What im basically getting at is that to some extent Karp is right, the more a charater is developed the more people will try and develop that character.
What im basically getting at is that to some extent Karp is right, the more a charater is developed the more people will try and develop that character.
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
Mango went mario at a tourney recently and beat hugs as well as others but eventually lost to zhu's falco. Obviously mango is a far superior player but in the end the tiers had the final say. uurrrgh it would take like half a page to explain what I'm thinking, I'll just tell you next time I see you.
Karp-0S
Smash Journeyman
It's not so much I want to win, moreso that respect be given wear respects due. Considering I main Doc, most people won't pay that as a valid character choice. Sure I'm a tad rusty being out of the scene for 3 years, I try my best and like to think I'm okay at what I do.
Next couple of tournaments I aim to make top 10 with doc and ness. I may be a tad ambitious. A tad. We'll see as to what comes to light.
I need help with my training. Mooch help.
Next couple of tournaments I aim to make top 10 with doc and ness. I may be a tad ambitious. A tad. We'll see as to what comes to light.
I need help with my training. Mooch help.
isthattim?
Smash Ace
pretty sure there were 2 docs in the top 20 at rocky, it's a legit choice and you might win some matches but i'm sure you'll find that you'll have lots of trouble with marth, sheik, captain falcon, peach and good spacies. I don't think he'll ever be top tier and it isn't through lack of trying by shroomed, HMW, Bob$, ****ing smashmac. All amazing players, all who know that some characters just don't have the potential of top tier characters
Karp-0S
Smash Journeyman
Those 6 are truly the bane of my smash playing in every sense. Still have my high tiered reserve. Just don't like to use him. Trying to make my doc as much of a spacies counter as possible. Does doc fair better against them then falcon does?
Against falcons I either ditto or Ness it. Ness is fun against Falcon. Should pick up Samus for my marth counter.
Too many dam characters.
Against falcons I either ditto or Ness it. Ness is fun against Falcon. Should pick up Samus for my marth counter.
Too many dam characters.
Dekar289
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2007
- Messages
- 6,306
tim you just named all the top tiers
but i think doc goes well against falcon and spacies at least, peach even
marth and sheik only danger matchups and it's still winnable
doc's legit, can be a real **** to vs but mad fun to play as
^similar to ICs, minus peach
but i think doc goes well against falcon and spacies at least, peach even
marth and sheik only danger matchups and it's still winnable
doc's legit, can be a real **** to vs but mad fun to play as
^similar to ICs, minus peach
Aussierob123
Smash Champion
you should pick a better option against falcons karp lol, Ness is no falcon counterpick.
undead_moose
Smash Lord
I agree roy is the better counter pick
Pantsmann
Smash Lord
doc does fine against falcon. it's pretty even imo.
Karp-0S
Smash Journeyman
Hmm. To pick up samus or not.....
Add to the repertoire. Spose it wouldn't hurt. Regardless I still need practice.
Want Friday to come around. Am still maining doc and ness :D
Add to the repertoire. Spose it wouldn't hurt. Regardless I still need practice.
Want Friday to come around. Am still maining doc and ness :D
Pantsmann
Smash Lord
K-0S i MM your doc with my luigi at merchant of venice!!! $5?
S.D
Smash Master
Fox destroys Doc, bair alone can almost win the MU for fox.
S.D
Smash Master
any amount
Karp-0S
Smash Journeyman
I've lost like $30 and 2 lunches to luigi's. Vyse is a ***** like that :D
I'll ness your luigi?
P.S. Love your work vyse
Pantsmann
Smash Lord
No longer going to Merchant of Venice. So i'll take you up on that Ness v luigi another time.
ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
Aron learn to wavedash Oos -> Dsmash and Short hop Bair -> waveland. Not to mention improving edge guarding tenfold and other serious concerning issues. If you cant play the character to his potential you cant expect to make top 10.
Karp-0S
Smash Journeyman
Improving my game is a something I'm trying to work on. As you know I'm doing my best to be more out and about smash wise.
Little hard to beat the best or even compete at that level when most of them don't go to casual meets or "don't feel like smash"
I make do with what I can. I've been trying to get 2 hours of chain grab practice/consistency with anything else I do with doc.
Little hard to beat the best or even compete at that level when most of them don't go to casual meets or "don't feel like smash"
I make do with what I can. I've been trying to get 2 hours of chain grab practice/consistency with anything else I do with doc.
Aussierob123
Smash Champion
if the best don't go to meets, it means they aren't improving = you improve = best gets owned by the new best.
King Kong
Smash Lord
It took me about 3 matches to start pulling off 0-deaths with Roy on fastfallers, so ****ing sexy to watch. Too bad the rest of Roys game is so mediocre. If you could dedicate yourself to reading well though, I think Roy would be a viable character, he punishes really really hard.
peace out
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
unless your syke/kas/dave olololol wats that? don't play smash for 6 months and still win, yar okay den <3
Karp-0S
Smash Journeyman
I shall channel maximum tech skill one day.
Thumb splitting training regime commencing.
Thumb splitting training regime commencing.
Technodeath
Smash Champion
Dekar has always been the king of Melee
TakFR
Smash Lord
Just out of curiosity Techno have you even met him? lol
I remember when Dekar wasn't the king of Melee. Then he got better.
Unlike alot of youuuuuuuuuuu.
ily Dekar <3
Lol.
Sigh trolling.
Aron, one thing I did notice was the edgeguarding like Ryan said. We all used to do it so much but now no one even thinks about it anymore. If someone goes off the edge, why bother chasing when you can hold the ledge and invin roll back on for the kill lol.
Safety first. Although you don't have to listen to me, it's not like I play anymore lol.
Unlike alot of youuuuuuuuuuu.
ily Dekar <3
Lol.
Sigh trolling.
Aron, one thing I did notice was the edgeguarding like Ryan said. We all used to do it so much but now no one even thinks about it anymore. If someone goes off the edge, why bother chasing when you can hold the ledge and invin roll back on for the kill lol.
Safety first. Although you don't have to listen to me, it's not like I play anymore lol.
Getting a bit mad are we? Haha.
It's easier to recover in Brawl with most characters, so it makes it a little safer. Gotta play the way you gotta play for the game you're gonna play lol.
Then again, I don't play, so I could be horribly wrong and maybe people playing Brawl are actually playing extremely unsafe by jumping off and edgeguarding.
It's easier to recover in Brawl with most characters, so it makes it a little safer. Gotta play the way you gotta play for the game you're gonna play lol.
Then again, I don't play, so I could be horribly wrong and maybe people playing Brawl are actually playing extremely unsafe by jumping off and edgeguarding.