Gay!

[heytallman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPQzeuQvwIg

 

[Gea]

whereas someone like Gea isn't as caring because he himself doesn't take offence.

I'm not offended because it is a legitimate word with other uses and is being used contextually to mean absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation. If a woman tells me she finds being called a woman to be oppressive I could not give less of a **** because it was not my intention in using a common word as any sort of offensive speech.

This is all ignoring to even take offense you have to be looking for it in the first place. I don't care what anyone's sexual orientation is, that's their personal business. When someone makes it an issue, then it's an issue. When you choose to identify yourself with your sexual orientation you are the one putting emphasis on it.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Yes. Although they have less clear ulterior meanings, they are very much used in other contexts.

Then I guess we disagree.

Again I think people have the right to say those things but it is disrespectful, harmful, bigoted, and immoral to do so despite there intent.

The difference between Manslaughter and Murder is intent, but manslaughter is still a crime.

 

[Gea]

And I find your choice to plaster your sexual orientation everywhere offensive to homosexuals who want it to be a nonissue. But I'm not going to make a topic whining about it because it's within your rights in this community to do so, and if I had a personal issue with your usage I would PM you about it.

 

[Pogogo]

This thread doesn't pertain to brawl. And if that means it deserves to be closed, close it. I didn't start the thread. It doesn't mean it isn't a good thread.

 

[Spelt]

And I find your choice to plaster your sexual orientation everywhere offensive to homosexuals who want it to be a nonissue. But I'm not going to make a topic whining about it because it's within your rights in this community to do so, and if I had a personal issue with your usage I would PM you about it.

i agree with this, and the first reply to this thread.


it's called the english language. Words have multiple meanings, which usually develop through changes in society.
get over it.


oh and gay wasn't even originally suppose to refer to homosexuality either. but then the meaning changed and it became insulting.
huh

 

[camerino1]

Exactly what I meant, it's only an issue when you are looking for it to be one in the case of a word like this with multiple meanings.

 

[Krystedez]

I had a big post but I think I'll just shorten it to this.

The rainbow as a symbol of homosexual pride is something that I find counter-intuitive to my beliefs as a Christian, because of the rainbow being a sign of a promise by God in the bible to never flood the earth again. But I am still tolerable of homosexuals as with anyone else, so don't get me wrong. Just throwing this out there, since we're talking about the context of things.

I been thinking about that ever since I made my rave'nbow Pit texture, and then you started to use it in your sig with a rainbow pattern and making your opinion about the word gay quite clear through it. I don't know, before I was out of grammar school, I used to love the rainbow, and use it in a lot of my art and character designs, and was fascinated in the science of light and space. Nowadays, when I see the rainbow, I'm expected to think of it as a symbol of gay pride. . .

Again, just throwin' that out there. I have nothing against homosexuals personally and don't shove my beliefs down people's throats. But that's just my stance. . .

 

[Lenus Altair]

And I find your choice to plaster your sexual orientation everywhere offensive to homosexuals who want it to be a nonissue. But I'm not going to make a topic whining about it because it's within your rights in this community to do so, and if I had a personal issue with your usage I would PM you about it.

As an aside I don't see myself as whining.

I want it to be a non issue too, I just think we disagree on how to go about it. Silence doesn't seem to have much of a successful track record for equality.

 

[Gea]

If you want it to be a non-issue then start by not having a sig that uses the word gay two times. It is hypocritical of you to approve of using it in one context then disapprove of it in a different context for somehow magically relating to the first context.

Once again, the Brawl community is not your audience to preach to atop a soap box. Go to the debate hall.

 

[Derkis]

Yes. Although they have less clear ulterior meanings, they are very much used in other contexts.

Just to take this line of argument to its logical extreme, is it then okay for me to start calling everything I don't like 'n***** bull****', despite the fact that I'm a pasty-faced suburban white male? It should be alright though, because I don't actually harbor any prejudices against African-Americans, and I'm merely trying to assign a different, inoffensive definition to this word.

I'm kind of shocked how often this topic comes up and people still trot out the same tired, defeated arguments about why using the word "gay" or any other hate-speech of similar origin is alright because they're 'deprived of hateful context' by the smash community. You can't eliminate some aspect of a word's definition over the course of a few decades. Something like that usually takes thousands of years, and in this particularly evocative and polarizing example, you simply aren't going to achieve the kind of weathering necessary to erode away the word's negative connotations. Nobody is going to accept for a minute that your intent is legitimate because attitudes about why it's wrong are firmly established (at least concerning 'n***** bull****'--they be similarly established for the word 'gay').

And when you use a word "out-of-context," it is not deprived of its other meanings. If this were true, then metaphor not be such a powerful literary tool. The ability to reinterpret words into different contexts entirely derives its power from the words' pre-existing definitions. As has already been stated many time by the topic's creator, the origin of 'gay' as an "inoffensive" term was wholly offensive in its intent. The only thing that's changed is that cultural attitudes towards homosexuality have shifted towards acceptance, but only in small subsets of global society. So to suggest that it's really not offensive is willfully ignorant, and it serves to diminish the importance of very recent history in which the common attitude was towards homosexuality was hateful and often expressly violent.

And since there still exist people who disparage homosexuals and accuse them of making an unholy and immoral "choice," when you use the word 'gay' to express your disapproval of something (anything, it's irrelevant whether or not it's an actual homosexual person) you tacitly reinforce the attitudes that these people hold. If you instead accept homosexuality as a perfectly normal and acceptable facet of modern society (and I hope you do), then you should be willing to work towards establishing an environment where such hatred is frowned upon rather than, perhaps unknowingly, encouraged by using a word whose reinvention was purely derogatory. To pretend like it doesn't exist is no excuse.

 

[Lenus Altair]

If you want it to be a non-issue then start by not having a sig that uses the word gay two times. It is hypocritical of you to approve of using it in one context then disapprove of it in a different context for somehow magically relating to the first context.

Once again, the Brawl community is not your audience to preach to atop a soap box. Go to the debate hall.

The word gay both times refers to homosexual. "Just 'cus you don't like something doesn't make it homosexual. Trust me, I know what's homosexual."

You act like I hijacked People and forced them into reading/commenting here.

 

[Gea]

I don't understand why my actions are hypocritical

Hate to tell you this, but some homosexuals find the usage of the word gay to refer to sexual orientation to be offensive. The connotation was not always the same underneath that definition. Furthermore, you say you want your sexual orientation to be a non-issue yet you are going out of your way to alert everyone of your sexual orientation.

Just to take this line of argument out of it's context...

The difference here is that one (gay) has a different definition that has integrated itself into common language. Your argument is that "oh no, someone might be offended by taking something out of context!" and "Well I can use any word in any way and no one should get offended because of my intentions!" As long as everyone is contextually clear, there is no offense. That is one of the beauties of language.

Words change. You need to take a class or do some research on linguistics if you find these concepts challenging or difficult.

 

[MK26]

That'd be like saying the game sucks and having me say that insulted lollipop manufacturers.

Posting to say I rofl'd

 

[Derkis]

Nowadays, when I see the rainbow, I'm expected to think of it as a symbol of gay pride. . .

You're not "expected" to recognize it as a symbol of gay pride. However, the fact that you seem to be disturbed by said recognition, and the suggestion that this somehow taints your childhood passion for art and science (if I read you correctly), is another thing entirely. Why would it matter that it's a symbol of gay pride if you accepted homosexuality's legitimacy?

I'm not upset by rain-induced rainbows now that it has acquired a more recent symbolism in the same way that I don't think any differently of (nor am I disturbed by) a pickup truck despite its being marketed as the pinnacle of manliness.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Hate to tell you this, but some homosexuals find the usage of the word gay to refer to sexual orientation to be offensive. The connotation was not always the same underneath that definition. Furthermore, you say you want your sexual orientation to be a non-issue yet you are going out of your way to alert everyone of your sexual orientation.
.

You tell me I'm on a soap box but you continue to talk down to me. You indirectly and directly insult the intelligence of those who you disagree with.

I am aware that some do find the term gay to refer to homosexuals itself can be seen as derogatory.

What I said is not hypocritical, because before something can become a non issue it has to be addressed properly. I feel it has not, not in the brawl community, nor the community at large.

 

[Derkis]

The difference here is that one (gay) has a different definition that has integrated itself into common language. Your argument is that "oh no, someone might be offended by taking something out of context!" and "Well I can use any word in any way and no one should get offended because of my intentions!" As long as everyone is contextually clear, there is no offense. That is one of the beauties of language.

Words change. You need to take a class or do some research on linguistics if you find these concepts challenging or difficult.

No, see here's the problem. NOW we have people who would stand up and say "hey you can't say that because it's inappropriate" when it comes to my "out-of-context" example. If you think about it, at one time people DID say this and it WAS acceptable, but NOW it is not for reasons that I hope I need not mention (see the familiarity of this timeline?).

In the SAME EXACT WAY people have turned 'gay' into a word whose use is acceptable to describe things you don't like, but since acceptance of homosexuality is a more recent development there are some among us who still refuse to acknowledge why using the word this way is wrong. I'm taking nothing out of context, it's actually a very direct parallel, if you bother to think about it for ten seconds instead of blindly defend your convenience-based ignorance. Change is hard, change requires some EFFORT on the part of people who actually care about demonstrating the equality that they purportedly support.

 

[Gea]

What I said is not hypocritical, because before something can become a non issue it has to be addressed properly.

Your feelings on the politics of sexuality have no bearing on whether or not you are a hypocrite. You are utilizing a word while preaching that others should not because it is offensive in nature.

I'm taking nothing out of context, it's actually a very direct parallel, if you bother to think about it for ten seconds instead of blindly defend your convenience-based ignorance.

No, your argument hinges on the idea that when you use a word, you are using all definitions and past definitions in your particular context, which is clearly not the case.

 

[Derkis]

No, your argument hinges on the idea that when you use a word, you are using all definitions and past definitions in your particular context, which is clearly not the case.

Then explain to me why this is "clearly" not the case, despite an endless list of examples to suggest COMPLETELY the opposite. Let's re-examine why figures-of-speech are effective, how about...

Edit: And after we've resolved that, actually RESPOND to my arguments and instead of conveniently sidestepping them without actually exercising any real consideration.

 

[EpixAura]

I'll address gay as it is in Melee meaning. Brawl's gay merely consists of camping/MK maining.
The first kind of gay is overpowered, zooming all over the place, killing at 70% and comboing to it easily. In other words, Fox gay.
The second kind of gay is fighting like a total b*tch, no skills, making the game boring everyone involved. In other words, Jigglypuff gay.
The last kind is, actually, just homosexual. In other words, Marth gay.

I believe using the term 'gay' is perfectly fine. In fact, I'm afraid if we got rid of it, we'd replace it with something worse.

^The above does not reflect my opinions and should in no way be taken seriously.

 

[Gea]

Then explain to me why this is "clearly" not the case, despite an endless exist of examples to suggest COMPLETELY the opposite. Let's re-examine why figures-of-speech are effective, how about...

"Man, planking is so gay."

Am I referring to sexual orientation or happiness/joy? No, the common language the users of SWF share show that contextually this means "stupid/lame." If someone misconstrues it to be in their eyes hurtful, that is them picking the wrong definition from a word with many meanings. If there was a lack of clarity I could see this being an issue, but as a case of video game discussion it is cut and dry.

 

[Teran]

Lol according to this thread it's like I'm my own personal brand of homosexual and my opinion on the matter doesn't count. >.>

So gay

 

[Derkis]

"Man, planking is so gay."

Am I referring to sexual orientation or happiness/joy? No, the common language the users of SWF share show that contextually this means "stupid/lame." If someone misconstrues it to be in their eyes hurtful, that is them picking the wrong definition from a word with many meanings. If there was a lack of clarity I could see this being an issue, but as a case of video game discussion it is cut and dry.

Ah, I see you will continue to sidestep my arguments.

You don't get to choose how people interpret the words you use, and when you use a word you should fully expect them to extract any and all definitions in their attempt to understand your desired meaning (which is why we have many words with similar but subtly different meanings). This is simply how communication works. If you give a speech and nobody understands it, then YOU failed as a speaker by not understanding your audience, they didn't fail as an audience by not understanding your speech.

Thus, it is YOUR responsibility to choose your words carefully, and your reluctance to do so is a reflection of your own laziness and ignorance, not a "misinterpretation" on the part of your audience. You don't have control over that, and you shouldn't expect anybody to interpret the words you use the way YOU want them to, in the same way that you shouldn't expect that in any instance. You can't make any improvements if you always assume somebody else is always the problem.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Your feelings on the politics of sexuality have no bearing on whether or not you are a hypocrite. You are utilizing a word while preaching that others should not because it is offensive in nature.

I see what you're saying.

However I'm not arguing about how Homosexuals choose to label themselves and whether Gay is an offensive way to do so. I am arguing the using the word gay as a synonym for wrong is derogatory. The noun and adjective are separate.

 

[Gea]

Thus, it is YOUR responsibility to choose your words carefully, and your reluctance to do so is a reflection of your own laziness and ignorance, not a "misinterpretation" on the part of your audience.

This is your opinion. The fact is that words have multiple meanings and one meaning of the word gay is "lame/stupid." It is my opinion that you can go **** yourself if you take my usage of a legitimate adjective out of context offensively and don't have the balls to pull me aside and ask me for clarification.

 

[Derkis]

This is your opinion. The fact is that words have multiple meanings and one meaning of the word gay is "lame/stupid." It is my opinion that you can go **** yourself if you take my usage of a legitimate adjective out of context offensively and don't have the balls to pull me aside and ask me for clarification.

No, that is not an opinion. Is a literal fact that you have no control over other people's interpretation, and only control over what you say. If you don't agree with that, you have some serious issues with empiricism.

 

[Gea]

That is not what I cited as an opinion. It is your opinion that it falls down to being my responsibility to make sure you are or aren't offended by my words.

 

[Derkis]

That is not what I cited as an opinion. It is your opinion that it falls down to being my responsibility to make sure you are or aren't offended by my words.

Yes, you continually sidestep what is actually important about what I've said when it's convenient, I've gleaned as much.

That post was the reason why the quoted text is not an opinion, but a logical conclusion derived from empirical evidence.

 

[Teran]

Yeah but have you ever noticed that if you stopped being a whiny little ***** when someone bullies you they usually stop?

I dunno hasn't anyone noticed that the more emphasis and attention people put on the negatives of words the more they get used and the mor butthurt spreads about the world?

Sometimes I think people actually just want to be offended more than anything.

 

[J00sh]

I'm sorry, but using the word gay to mean stupid/annoying/cheap is not okay. Regardless of your intent , you are associating a people with the negative implications of something being cheap.

Let me make this example. The word 'jew' and 'jewish' was often used a while ago to refer to 'cheap' or 'unfair'. Today as a regular society we now realise how ridiculous and offensive it is to refer to something or someone as 'jewish' because of the way they handle money.

Another parallel? Early last year in Australia on a comedic television show, as part of a skit some Indian doctors dressed up like the Jackson 5 and painted their faces black. There was worldwide outcry at what a racist nation Australia was and how offensive the skit was. Many Americans commented on how we were promoting oppression of black people by dressing up as them and acting silly. The people doing the skit merely meant to parody the Jackson 5 while acting like louts. To them, it was more about the band and not the fact that their skin was dark. The people painted their faces black so as to be immediately identifiable as the Jackson 5. The majority of Australians saw no offence with the skit, it was rather foreigners' opinions which labelled this sketch as racist. Now just because those doing the skit didn't mean it to be offensive or racist, DOESN'T MEAN IT WASN'T.

To claim that using a word like gay in "a different context" and it not reflecting negatively at all on gay people as a whole is complete and utter bull. Also, saying "it's so ingrained in the way people speak it shouldn't have to be changed" is crap too. Let me take the word "******" as another example. It was once culturally/socially accepted to refer to someone as a "******" does that mean that people brought up in the 60s and 70s should still be able to refer to black people as "******s"?

 

[Gea]

What, you want me to go in depth about my audience at SWF having nothing to do with sexual orientation and have a link to each definition of every word I used to hold someone's hand? It's clear by this very topic that the users can see the difference between the usage of the word via context. If someone enters the conversation and becomes offended because of my lack of clarity despite no one else having this issue, I am not going to pander to them.

There is nothing to sidestep. Theory != practice. In practice on this very website an extreme minority of users have an issue distinguishing context.

Yeah but have you ever noticed that if you stopped being a whiny little ***** when someone bullies you they usually stop?

I dunno hasn't anyone noticed that the more emphasis and attention people put on the negatives of words the more they get used and the mor butthurt spreads about the world?

Sometimes I think people actually just want to be offended more than anything.

This. So many times this.

 

[MrEh]

South Park =/= End all argument.

South Park = End all argument.


See what I did there?

 

[Spelt]

Lol according to this thread it's like I'm my own personal brand of homosexual and my opinion on the matter doesn't count. >.>

So gay

Yeah but have you ever noticed that if you stopped being a whiny little ***** when someone bullies you they usually stop?

I dunno hasn't anyone noticed that the more emphasis and attention people put on the negatives of words the more they get used and the mor butthurt spreads about the world?

Sometimes I think people actually just want to be offended more than anything.

both of these posts are awesome.

 

[Teran]

Let me make this example. The word 'jew' and 'jewish' was often used a while ago to refer to 'cheap' or 'unfair'. Today as a regular society we now realise how ridiculous and offensive it is to refer to something or someone as 'jewish' because of the way they handle money.

A while ago?

I still hear that hahaha.

There's actually a story behind that, it's quite funny. In fact, the word Jew in that context makes me laugh a lot too, but that might be because I live in a Jewish suburb. :x

 

[Derkis]

What, you want me to go in depth about my audience at SWF having nothing to do with sexual orientation and have a link to each definition of every word I used to hold someone's hand? It's clear by this very topic that the users can see the difference between the usage of the word via context. If someone enters the conversation and becomes offended because of my lack of clarity despite no one else having this issue, I am not going to pander to them.

There is nothing to sidestep. Theory != practice. In practice on this very website an extreme minority of users have an issue distinguishing context.

No I just hope you understand why someone could very easily be offended by the use of the word 'gay' and how it is no different from how we have historically diminished the use of any other expression of hatred, despite the fact that in its time it was considered an acceptable substitute for a word which is far more suitable and has no potentially offensive alternative definitions.

I don't really have any more time for this though, so enjoy yourself.

 

[Gea]

Like I said four or five times, if they have an issue with it, they can personally confront me and rectify/clarify the situation. Asking everyone to avoid a word because someone might be offended is dumb (another word with multiple meanings that some people find offensive), especially if the context is not ambiguous to begin with.

 

[Lenus Altair]

South Park = End all argument.


See what I did there?

Yeah, you added nothing to the topic. But if you like me to address south park...

South park is intentionally inflammatory and does not cover a given topic in much depth. It pokes fun at an issue to express a point of view often in lue of another. It is far from a topic ender.

 

[Derkis]

Like I said four or five times, if they have an issue with it, they can personally confront me and rectify/clarify the situation. Asking everyone to avoid a word because someone might be offended is dumb, especially if the context is not ambiguous to begin with.

And similar to something I've said said four or five times, would you expect another person to just walk up to somebody and tell them to stop using the n-word during the period shortly after the Civil Rights Movement?

 

[Gea]

If I was unclear on their meaning of the word? Sure. You're citing theory with implications that there is danger involved by asking someone online or at a smash tournament if they intended to be hateful towards homosexuality. Remember this discussion is about it's usage in the Brawl Community, not in a back alley full of drunk rednecks with switchblades.

 

[Teran]

Bet all the drunk rednecks would just end up asking me for a little fun in the dark.

They're always the most repressed. ;D