Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[AmericanDJ]

What are all of the uses for Nair?

 

[Direspect only!]

Fighting my friend who plays lucas and villager, lucas I can get through his pk fire/zair wall, but villager gives me ebola everytime. Help?

 

[Blobface]

D Direspect only!
Just fought a really good villager last night so here's a few general pointers.

• If he uses Lloid, you can Dash Attack while he's using it to make it blow up in his face while you clash with the Lloid unharmed.
• Slingshots require him to be in the air, which combined with his poor airspeed make him very vulnerable to Wizkick.
• He's ridiculously good offstage, but if he commits to a really low Balloon trip or riding the Lloid feel free to make him pay for it with a F-air/Dair. Be careful though.
• SAVE YOUR DOUBLE JUMP. This is the big one. Nothing you do matters if you're getting edgeguarded at low %s. Even if it means having to take some extra damage, you can't lose your DJ. You need your DJ to recover against Villager.

With all that said, @Vermanubis can probably go into more detail on this matchup.

AmericanDJ

• N-air is your go-to option for breaking tight strings, especially against people below you. It's the combo-breaker you use when Aerial Wizkick doesn't cut it.
• It also is a true grab followup at low %s for hefty 30% damage
• In Neutral, you'll generally use it for covering a lot of space or trying to approach, though it is punishable if you're not careful. It can help you mix up with empty-hops and Aerudo as well.
• At 90%+, if you Fastfall onto people and hit with the late first hit (deals 8%, sends straight up), you can kill confirm into F-tilt on every character. At lower %'s you can get a grab.
  
• Finally, it's a really good gimping move due to it's long lasting hitbox and horizontal trajectory.

 

[Direspect only!]

Lots of info, thanks bro

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Woo-hoo, time to learn about a character i have no idea about....

What are ganon's best combos on lighter characters? since im assuming he's a slower heavier hitting Falcon.
what are his best aerials?
Does wizard's kick have a use besides have a shield breaking ability and an aerial approach option?
any tips on recovering?
What are some good follow-ups after flame choke?

dont think im stupid for these questions

 

[Direspect only!]

After flame choke, best follow up is probably another flame choke. If you have a super hard read, you can use a forward smash, Wiz kick is great for catching rolls.and spot dodges, so if they anticipate a grab, Wiz kik is the way to go. Fastest aerial imo is probably bair, you can bair pretty constently, however fair is the strongest, uair is my favorite because it covers above in front and every where in between, pluss it's easy to auto cancel. Aerial Wiz kick can also counter a wake up attack out of flame choke. Down throw into Wiz kick works on some people at low percents, Wiz kick is also active longer than dair so it is my more reliable spike, just make sure you jump before you do it off stage, otherwise you can't come back. Basically the tip to play ganon is make super hard reads and kill them in 12 hits. He can build momentum well as all his moves have a lot of knockback, so you just tech chase them. At higher percents this is normally not possible, so you must hit them off the stage and play patiently always keeping them at a disadvantsge, punish with a Sparta kick at 90% and then just edge guard.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Wow thanks! now i have more questions a brewin'!

What are ganon's B'n'B combos?
What are his main combo throws?
Does he have a kill-throw?
What use does warlock punch have, other than those reads..?
Does ganon benefit from JC Tossing?
Do his tilts have any use? besides f-tilt and d-tilt? well then I just mean u-tilt...

 

[Direspect only!]

His throws don't combo well at all, he's not mario, you shouldn't try to go for combos, you should go for setups and reads. F throw for example off stage puts them in a wierd position. You have to capitalize off that by reading the air dodge or lack of, by throwing out a Nair, uair, or fair, if they air dodge, the suspected attack, jump and immediately down air.
U tilt has a lot of range, I use it for edge guarding on FG that's about it. As for down tilr, at low percents you can read a down tech after d tilt and go for a flame choke. F tilt and jab should be you're main grounded punish moves, unless they really screw up, then I would use f smash.
Rather than jc canceling I would recomend ditcit, If for some reason you wanted to go that route.
As for the warlock punch, I know it has armor grounded only, so don't try to reverse aerial warlock punch, other than for shieldbreaks.
As for uses out side of that, he has more realistic moves for reads.
Not trying to be the end all be all here, I'm sure more people have more knowledge than me regarding him, I only sub him when people CP pac man badly

 

[Direspect only!]

U tilt has a lot of range, I use it for edge guarding on FG that's about it. As for down tilr, at low percents you can read a down tech after d tilt and go for a flame choke. F tilt and jab should be you're main grounded punish moves, unless they really screw up, then I would use f smash.

 

[Direspect only!]

Fair, bair, and nair tips, other than edge guarding?

 

[InternetSandman]

I recently had a Bo5 money match, I need a lot of advice vs Diddy Kong. Here's the match, for context

https://youtu.be/soPO1DqF4bY

I feel like between Banana and diddy's side-B, he can cover so many options and rack up a lot of damage very safely. What are Ganon's best ways to approach the matchup? And what might I need to work on, either for this MU or fundamentals in general?

 

[Theosmeo]

I recently had a Bo5 money match, I need a lot of advice vs Diddy Kong. Here's the match, for context

https://youtu.be/soPO1DqF4bY

I feel like between Banana and diddy's side-B, he can cover so many options and rack up a lot of damage very safely. What are Ganon's best ways to approach the matchup? And what might I need to work on, either for this MU or fundamentals in general?

I'd say Nair to pick up bananas, Usmash a lot, and look for flame choke chains only if there are no bananas around(they could cause problems). If they miss the tech on the flame choke when you have a banana, throw it down immediately which should trip them, then you get a free Fsmash.

After looking at your video, I'm impressed by your consistent use of RARed Bairs(I'm pretty crap at RARs), however, save that for Rosa, ZSS, and Shiek as they have too high a hitbox to be useful against Diddy Pika or even Sonic. Tomohawk more, run in a little less, space with dtilt more, and stay out of his little monkey range. Nice play overall though, it's a tough MU and the dude looks like a strong diddy player.

Oh, and be a little more attentive to rolling habbits, the guy was always rolling right out of the way of you DAs and Gerudos, but a ground wizkick would have got him. Not a whole lot of reward, but 10+% and potentially an edgeguard situation.

 

[Theosmeo]

So I play a little peach on the side(not a whole lot though) and I was practicing with her noSRS on FG when I found a pretty textbook ZSS and thought it would be a good chance to practice with Ganon. After a close game where I won I pulled out my Ganon expecting to win(my Peach is pretty crap, and I didn't pull any BS like a stitchface/bomb-om) but whenever I got them to 70+%, they would start standing still shooting paralyzers forever, and no matter what I did I got grabbed. Seriously, I spent a straight hour trying to get around this.

How do I deal w/ paralyzer without muh drop kick

 

[Direspect only!]

run into shield, and then spot dodge. then after you dodge the grab, give em the sparta kick xD. Or stand just outside their paralyzer range, bait them out a bit with aerials, then when they come in destroy them.

 

[Theosmeo]

Well ZSS's grab is punishable, but it has a lot of active frames and a huge hitbox, so it can actually catch spotdodge's if spaced properly, and standing out of range prompted her to just come in a little closer, so every time I just lost more stage control.

It's times like this I wish flame choke would let ganon grab and eat projectiles for heals.

 

[Direspect only!]

Try jumping then so she won't be inclin ed to grab as much if the mixup is that potent don't give her a chance to set it up.

 

[Theosmeo]

But then she'll shoot more lazers or run up Usmash and I'll have no safe way to land

 

[Direspect only!]

Ok, at this point youre looking for a 100% guaranteed situation, for ganon, he doesnt have an end all be all. So for each situation you have an answer as to how to avoid it. You can even approach from the air and if she shields (which she most likely will cause she sounds defensive) do an aerial flame choke) free setup and if you're near the edge she is either going to roll behind you( f smash) or get up attack(run towards center of stage then side b punish) Congrats you now have her in the corner. lol

 

[Blobface]

Theosmeo
For obvious Dash Grab attempts like that I find it's best to try rolling through them. It gets you out of the way of the hitbox and puts you in the perfect position for a free F-smash.

 

[Phill-Bot]

How do you do this tech? Seems very useful!

https://youtu.be/qeTmdOilbgg?t=9m24s

 

[Theosmeo]

How do you do this tech? Seems very useful!

https://youtu.be/qeTmdOilbgg?t=9m24s

That´s a wizkick cancel and it is useful, but situational. If you do a standing Dspecial you have one lag animation if you end on land and another if you end offstage, but if you end right after the ledge you´ll be lagless, leading to cool mixups.

 

[mgleed]

There may be a place where this has already been discussed, so feel free to point me toward a discussion if you know about it. I'd like to learn more about optimal uses and situations for D-Smash, as it's Ganon's move with strongest kockback http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ganondorf. I've seen some Ganons use it creatively in competitive play, but I haven't really committed those situations to memory.

Besides using D-smash at the edge facing the stage and as a slightly unreliable roll-punisher, I mostly use D-smash on accident when I'm trying to DA with the C-stick.

What are some optimal uses and situations to use D-Smash? Specific MU's it can be used as a punish tool? Etc.

 

[Blobface]

There may be a place where this has already been discussed, so feel free to point me toward a discussion if you know about it. I'd like to learn more about optimal uses and situations for D-Smash, as it's Ganon's move with strongest kockback http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ganondorf. I've seen some Ganons use it creatively in competitive play, but I haven't really committed those situations to memory.

Besides using D-smash at the edge facing the stage and as a slightly unreliable roll-punisher, I mostly use D-smash on accident when I'm trying to DA with the C-stick.

What are some optimal uses and situations to use D-Smash? Specific MU's it can be used as a punish tool? Etc.

I mainly use D-smash as "The F-smash that sends people behind you". If you've got a hard punish or a read, feel free to throw it out and boot 'em. Be careful though, unlike F-smash it's horrendously punishable on shield (F-smash is punishable but you can't really get hit by anything especially bad), and you will eat something especially painful if you whiff.

Oh, and the second hit has rather absurd range now. Combined with how he leans forward into the first kick it can really look like it won't hit someone. It's a gimmick, but its still nice to know.

 

[verbatim]

Specific MU's it can be used as a punish tool?

You can D-smash Olimar out of Flame Choke if he doesn't tech.

 

[mgleed]

You can D-smash Olimar out of Flame Choke if he doesn't tech.

Thanks Blobface & verbatim . I didn't know about D-smash with Olimar--I thought there were some uses for D-smash out of choke, but I didn't know what MU's.

 

[DrLobster]

So, I was playing some matches on Anther's Ladder, and twice in one set I got ledge trump b-air -> side b. Is this a real thing? If so, Ganon has an actually amazing ledge trump game on top of his already surprisingly good one.

 

[Blobface]

So, I was playing some matches on Anther's Ladder, and twice in one set I got ledge trump b-air -> side b. Is this a real thing? If so, Ganon has an actually amazing ledge trump game on top of his already surprisingly good one.

I don't think that's actually a true combo. B-air does end really quickly but Aerudo is pretty slow on startup, Frame 19 at the earliest. However, people really don't expect Ganon to use his side B to extend/end combos (It's a slow character, you'd never guess he'd fly over to you), so despite its slow speed, it can catch people off guard really easily.

Ganon's ledge trump game is excellent though.

 

[Theosmeo]

There may be a place where this has already been discussed, so feel free to point me toward a discussion if you know about it. I'd like to learn more about optimal uses and situations for D-Smash, as it's Ganon's move with strongest kockback http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ganondorf. I've seen some Ganons use it creatively in competitive play, but I haven't really committed those situations to memory.

Besides using D-smash at the edge facing the stage and as a slightly unreliable roll-punisher, I mostly use D-smash on accident when I'm trying to DA with the C-stick.

What are some optimal uses and situations to use D-Smash? Specific MU's it can be used as a punish tool? Etc.

I use it a lot and so I´ve ended up getting a lot of experience with it.

1. It´s his fastest smash but also his most risky as it takes the longest.
2. Don´t use it if the opponent is VERY close to you, as it will knock people forward instead of back, this is because the knockback is set to be toward ganon's horizontal position rather than simply where his foot would be.
3. With proper spacing/use of platforms it can create traps to aerial opponents.
4. If a character has recovered high and is in freefall or messed up a punish(like ZSS) it can trap them.
5. Catches rollers but is punishable, so throw it out if you see others panic rolling while you're at low %
6. Disjounted to it will clank with swords, in some situations it can confirm to a grab
7. Can out of shield against high commitment things, Ikes jab combo works well for this.

It´s usually bad against characters with fast attacks: Mac, ZSS, Shiek.But it works wonders against slower more bulky fighters, its an amazing tool for DK, Ike, and even Rosalina


Edit: Goodness, it didn´t let me finish

 

[A2ZOMG]

There may be a place where this has already been discussed, so feel free to point me toward a discussion if you know about it. I'd like to learn more about optimal uses and situations for D-Smash, as it's Ganon's move with strongest kockback http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ganondorf. I've seen some Ganons use it creatively in competitive play, but I haven't really committed those situations to memory.

Besides using D-smash at the edge facing the stage and as a slightly unreliable roll-punisher, I mostly use D-smash on accident when I'm trying to DA with the C-stick.

What are some optimal uses and situations to use D-Smash? Specific MU's it can be used as a punish tool? Etc.

Dsmash is passable for covering ledge options. The move leans forward a lot which makes reverse Dsmash a little underrated in footsies. It's a good punish vs whiffed UpBs and charging it against the landings of characters who use Counters (because you won't die for screwing up the timing).

Dsmash out of shield can work against various Jab enders if you react fast too.

 

[HoSmash4]

What are ganondrofs ledge coverage options?

 

[Theosmeo]

What are ganondrofs ledge coverage options?

I like a well timed full hop stomp for catching jumps, normal getups, and getup attacks, but it´s really tricky and pretty goofy.

Dashing in to a RARed short hop instant double jump Fair works well because you can catch a jump, a roll(unless they´re Ike or Zelda or someone with stupid long rolls) if you fast fall forward, a normal and attack up if you fast fall straight down, and potentially a stage spike if they stay at the edge or release backwards(releasing backwards can lead to sourspot Fair which knocks people the opposite direction as well). It only doesn´t catch fast fall down but that can lead to a stage spike with dark dive or a ledge trump. It´s really great in theory but I can´t execute it :|

 

[FrankensteinShoes]

Hi, I'm a relatively new player, and I'm curious how I can get better baits/catch people off guard with my dair and down b spike?
Also, what is the most effective way to safely down b spike?

 

[mgleed]

Hi, I'm a relatively new player, and I'm curious how I can get better baits/catch people off guard with my dair and down b spike?
Also, what is the most effective way to safely down b spike?

In general, and in my opinion, the best times to choose to Dair or WK spike are to punish poor decisions on your opponent's part or to catch predictable recoveries (e.g. Falcon, Ganon, Olimar, and many more).

If you go offstage and bait your opponent to airdodge, you can do a rising dair as they attempt to recover. Also, I often find I get most of my dairs by simply running off the stage and quickly using dair to see if I can catch them off guard.

As far as WK spikes, you can do a fullhop at the edge of the stage, WK, and then jump and recover (practice this in training mode). I find this most useful when I throw an opponent offstage at low % and they jump toward the stage, but it's pretty risky if your opponent is in a position to punish you if you miss.

Keep in mind that Dair and WK spikes, while flashy and highly satistfying, shouldn't be your go-to when punishing people offstage as they aren't always very safe. Uair (esp. the tip of the foot toward the end of the move) and nair are often better tools in most situations; however, you may find times when you catch your opponent off guard and are in position to easily end a stock with a spike.

 

[FrankensteinShoes]

In general, and in my opinion, the best times to choose to Dair or WK spike are to punish poor decisions on your opponent's part or to catch predictable recoveries (e.g. Falcon, Ganon, Olimar, and many more).

If you go offstage and bait your opponent to airdodge, you can do a rising dair as they attempt to recover. Also, I often find I get most of my dairs by simply running off the stage and quickly using dair to see if I can catch them off guard.

As far as WK spikes, you can do a fullhop at the edge of the stage, WK, and then jump and recover (practice this in training mode). I find this most useful when I throw an opponent offstage at low % and they jump toward the stage, but it's pretty risky if your opponent is in a position to punish you if you miss.

Keep in mind that Dair and WK spikes, while flashy and highly satistfying, shouldn't be your go-to when punishing people offstage as they aren't always very safe. Uair (esp. the tip of the foot toward the end of the move) and nair are often better tools in most situations; however, you may find times when you catch your opponent off guard and are in position to easily end a stock with a spike.

Thank you for that information! I will undoubtedly practice these in training mode. Are there any other hidden secrets about Ganon that I should know?

 

[UzakiuzuG]

Does the Ganon boards have a section for Combos, Strings, KillConfirms, Kill setups? I don't have my wii U and only get serious practice at the bar. I was thinking. As a movement option why not use dash attack at the start to get some ground.

More like DA= faster movement as long as it's used at the right place.

There has to be some kind of move that puts the opponent in a terrible situation other than a gerudo chokeslam.

I was also think.. for covering ledge get up, jump, and maybe get up attack past 100 how would Up smash do?
Since I don't have my console at the moment all i can do is smash theorize...

My Questions:
Ganon mains how do you feel about using Dash attack as a movement option? (USING it sparingly just to close in the gap)
Are there any good ledge coverage options? (Like when I use my falcon, jab covers just about everything but roll. and fall off ledge SH attack)

Is there any moves that set up for a kill other than a geurdo chokeslam read?
What are Ganon's common strings outside of 20%?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Does the Ganon boards have a section for Combos, Strings, KillConfirms, Kill setups? I don't have my wii U and only get serious practice at the bar. I was thinking. As a movement option why not use dash attack at the start to get some ground.

More like DA= faster movement as long as it's used at the right place.

There has to be some kind of move that puts the opponent in a terrible situation other than a gerudo chokeslam.

I was also think.. for covering ledge get up, jump, and maybe get up attack past 100 how would Up smash do?
Since I don't have my console at the moment all i can do is smash theorize...

My Questions:
Ganon mains how do you feel about using Dash attack as a movement option? (USING it sparingly just to close in the gap)
Are there any good ledge coverage options? (Like when I use my falcon, jab covers just about everything but roll. and fall off ledge SH attack)

Is there any moves that set up for a kill other than a geurdo chokeslam read?
What are Ganon's common strings outside of 20%?

Dash Attack's movement burst is only worth it if you're in range to actually hit the opponent. Stick with Wizkick Cancelling if you want to use attacks as movement options. Up Smash is a decent option for ledge getups since it's low commitment, but too slow to time in reaction to anything. New NAir's pretty good for that, and Dark Dive could also cover multiple options at kill %s for it, though it can be risky. Ganondorf doesn't normally have many kill confirms outside of Flame Choke, his moves just kill outright, but you can situationally pull off Dthrow -> Fair at the ledge around 70% or so if they DI in and you buffer just right. Most of Ganondorf's strings are Dthrow -> Nair/Uair, but if you can land a Dair it leads into all sorts of stuff.

 

[Theosmeo]

Dash Attack's movement burst is only worth it if you're in range to actually hit the opponent. Stick with Wizkick Cancelling if you want to use attacks as movement options. Up Smash is a decent option for ledge getups since it's low commitment, but too slow to time in reaction to anything. New NAir's pretty good for that, and Dark Dive could also cover multiple options at kill %s for it, though it can be risky. Ganondorf doesn't normally have many kill confirms outside of Flame Choke, his moves just kill outright, but you can situationally pull off Dthrow -> Fair at the ledge around 70% or so if they DI in and you buffer just right. Most of Ganondorf's strings are Dthrow -> Nair/Uair, but if you can land a Dair it leads into all sorts of stuff.

Late dash attack and dtilt at low %s are also great combo tools

 

[verbatim]

If you can confirm both out of Flame Choke, is ftilt or dtilt a better kill option? I've primarily been using dtilt, since it works in more cases, but I've started experimented with using ftilt in matchups where both work.

 

[HeavyLobster]

If you can confirm both out of Flame Choke, is ftilt or dtilt a better kill option? I've primarily been using dtilt, since it works in more cases, but I've started experimented with using ftilt in matchups where both work.

Depends on stage positioning. Ftilt is preferable if you're anywhere near the ledge though.

 

[Direspect only!]

Hey, I can't land f tilt on anyone after a side b when they don't tech. It seems rather simple, but I can't hit it. Is there a secret I'm missing?