Ganonic Grimoire (Social) - Commiseration and Hierarchy

[Bloodynite]

brinstar has been banned for over a year now.... i haven't had the taste of salty tears of people when they fall through the lava

 

[evmaxy54]

Norfair is better

Also hello Ganon mains

 

[Claire Diviner]

Norfair is better

Well, considering it's Planet Zebes' version of Hell, I can agree on an aesthetic standpoint. It's been forever since I've played Ganon on either Brinstar or Norfair, so I forget which stage is more Ganon-friendly.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Norfair is our second best stage.

I still hold Pirate Ship is easily our best stage.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Aren't both stages normally banned though?

 

[evmaxy54]

Unfortunately, yes. But I would love to see the day that Norfair is legal, which is unlikely because the rule sets are leaning towards the Japanese rules ;_;
& quite frankly, those rules suck :/

 

[Supreme Dirt]

But but but

Make Olimar and Ice Climbers strong

BALANCE.

I mean if you use a non-top tier that makes you a bad player and you should suffer from a limited stage list.

 

[evmaxy54]

You've got a point :/

 

[Vermanubis]

Utilt is pretty good against people on the ledge because it has deceptively little ending lag, which leads to a lot of missed punishes.

Then again, most people aren't going to get hit by it regardless, which means you wasted a potential opportunity to punish your opponent's attempt to get back on stage from the ledge.

Yeah, it depends on the situation, really. Against someone like Falco, it's obviously not a good idea. Against someone who beats you on the ledge and can't safely attempt to punish it though, such as Ike, it's fantastic. In such a case, it's completely safe, and it pressures them to get off of the ledge

 

[Bloodynite]

well the uptilt isn't completely safe since you still can't throw it around like nothing all the time... after all it is the slowest start up move in the game

 

[Heartstring]

I thought reverse warlock was slower?

Also I'm currently at a smashfest, My ganon is actually ripping new arseholes in people's mains lol
Also, Got some godly replays, This CV needs to happen

 

[Claire Diviner]

A friend of mine is holding a little Brawl tourney at his house with a bunch of other friends this month, and I'm invited to join. Just like the last two years, I'll most likely attend, so I might be able to get some decent footage of my Ganon.

I'm dying to see your clips, G~P.

 

[Heartstring]

why thanks sol, One of them is a 0-death which was beautiful :D

 

[Claire Diviner]

why thanks sol, One of them is a 0-death which was beautiful :D

Okay, now I really need to see this! Not anytime this weekend though, since I'm going to be away until Monday afternoon.

 

[Heartstring]

well I won't be getting them uploaded anytime soon lol, Uni stuff in the way >.<

 

[DLA]

Just thought I'd let everyone know.

Short hop fast fall Bair is the future of the Ganon metagame.

Consider this: Ganon has the shortest/fastest short hop in the game. Meaning, he can short hop, fast fall, and land faster than any other character.

Now consider this: Ganon can autocancel his buffered Bair out of short hop, even if he fast falls the first possible frame. So if you do multiple SHFFBairs in a row, the result is an extremely rapid series of Bairs (almost exactly two per second) with no landing lag.

Two Bairs per second is ridiculous, if you think about it.

It's very risky for your opponent to approach from the air (or the ground, if their character is tall enough) if you're throwing out that many fists in that short of a time. If you get in your opponent's zone and start throwing out SHFF Bairs, they're pretty much not going to be able to go in the air without getting hit by a Bair. In other words, your opponent is going to want to spend much more time on the ground.

And do I need to tell you the advantage of an opponent that's compelled to stay grounded against Ganon? YEAH THAT'S RIGHT, more flame chokes.

I'm not saying Ganon's invincible whilst spamming SHFF Bairs, or that he's even remotely safe while doing it. What I AM saying is that SHFF Bair is an excellent way to apply pressure to your opponent, and I that everyone here who still plays Ganon should go into training mode and practice doing as many in a row as possible, because it's actually rather technically demanding to do consistently. Especially considering the fact that if you mess up, you're probably going to Fair instead. Which, needless to say, is a bad thing.



If anyone's unclear as to what I'm saying, I'll try to release a video tomorrow.

 

[-LzR-]

I'll have to throw in the mandatory I've been doing this since 08 comment. Seriously though, good stuff, I didn't know you could fastfall at all, I always got lag when I tried to fastfall it, maybe I wasn't buffering it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dio uses buffered, reverse dtilt as a follow up to those bairs. I tried to implement it but it's quite demanding to pull off.

 

[Bloodynite]

can't it still miss tiny characters?

on a side note my car literally stopped working at a red light
3 days before the tourney ffs

 

[DLA]

I seem to remember Dio not fastfalling his Bair. He just Baired then buffered the reverse Dtilt when he landed. I may be wrong though. It seems like buffering Bair, buffering FF, then buffering reverse Dtilt is simply too technically demanding to do consistently.

The fastfall is very important, considering how many frames it takes off of SH Bair. We're getting into the realms of Melee-level pressure here. It's also especially if you buffer your next action. Important followups to SHFF Bair would be flame choke, spot dodge/roll, reverse jab, even Fsmash or iDA.

This is obviously less useful against shorter characters like Olimar and MK, because you won't be hitting their shield with SHFF Bair. It IS still useful though, because the point is to keep your opponent on the ground, not to necessarily hit them. Just space the Bairs so you won't get punished for them. Remember these are aerials, so you can stay relatively mobile while throwing them out.

I wouldn't try to do this a lot against characters who like to stay on the ground already, such as Olimar, Diddy, ICs, etc. But I feel that this will really help us against characters who like to approach with aerials (marth, wario, wolf, TL, etc), or tall characters that need to shield Bair.

This feels nice. I haven't been in the lab with Ganon for a while.

 

[Heartstring]

Might have to look into this, My ganons actually got a reputation now so i need to keep it dark and dangerous with a hint of ganly

 

[Supreme Dirt]

lol at technically demanding

 

[DLA]

If you think this isn't technically demanding, then you clearly either haven't tried it, or have no idea what I'm talking about.

Go into training mode and pop out 10 straight SHFF bairs in rapid succession, then come back and say it's not technically demanding.

 

[Bloodynite]

ya gonna post that vid dla?

 

[DLA]

Yeah I'm working on it right now. I need to find someone to help me film some actual applications for it. For example I'm going to attack their shield with SHFF Bair and show how little frame disadvantage Ganon has on his opponent if they try to attack OoS.

For example, I'm guessing that if you do it right, Marth won't even be able to Fair OoS, and will get stuffed if he tries.

edit: I'm throwing a smashfest tonight so the vid should be done by tomorrow. I'll also try to record some matches for your viewing pleasure.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

took a minute to get down. I'ma actually try and use this if I play in another Brawl tourney, and I'm definitely adding it to my game in Brawl-.

Now adding in the reverse DTilt is going to take work.

 

[DLA]

Forget the reverse Dtilt IMO. Dtilt kinda sucks, there are much better options afterwards.

Just because Dio's from Japan doesn't mean he's a holy prophet of Smash or something. I'm not even sure why he does the Dtilt in the first place. Sure it's relatively safe, but so is rolling backwards. Being overly safe doesn't win matches for Ganondorf.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh I know. But we are the worst character in the game. Having more options is ALWAYS a good thing, even if they're heavily situational.

It's why mastering something like FoG isn't really optional. Sure, the situations you'd use it in are limited heavily. But when that situation comes up you'll be wishing you knew how to do it.

Also you say Marth can't FAir OoS... why does he have to? Can he not just up-B OoS?

*edit* since I've never played a Marth who did this, I checked. We can block the up-B.

 

[Jrugs]

Soooooooooooo.....who wants to go to New York?
Opening up a carpool for Impact in New York Tell your friends

(disclaimer one way trip)






.......oh and that bair thing seems kinda neat.

 

[stingers]

dla, that bair stuff is very interesting.
how close do you think it makes the ganon/marth MU?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Forget the reverse Dtilt IMO. Dtilt kinda sucks, there are much better options afterwards.

Just because Dio's from Japan doesn't mean he's a holy prophet of Smash or something. I'm not even sure why he does the Dtilt in the first place. Sure it's relatively safe, but so is rolling backwards. Being overly safe doesn't win matches for Ganondorf.

Dtilt is one of the few viable grounded options Ganon has that doesn't include some sort of dash / movement like Dash Attack or side B. In a situation like that Ganon really only has either dtilt or ftilt and dtilt is safer.

And rolling backwards isn't even safe with Ganon

 

[DLA]

I think I got some decent footage last night. Expect a video in the next few days--I'm gonna have a busy weekend so it might take a while.

@Stingers--I'm sure the Marth MU will still be pretty bad because of side B. No amount of Bairs will change that. It'll discourage him from approaching with aerials though (which he was able to do before practically risk-free), which means we have a better chance to deal with his side B.

@Gheb--Rolling backwards isn't safe, but it's relatively safe compared to his other options And call me crazy, but sticking your foot out towards your opponent when it usually won't hit them anyways seems like an inherently bad idea to me.

 

[Rizen]

Hi,
I picked up Ganondorf for fun some time ago. I'm a wifi player who uses several characters and see several familiar face- avatars here, lol.
TBH, I taught myself Ganon but never got help/critiques from other players or learned his finer points.
I unfortunately have no good videos and only got to the level of a presentable Ganon recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_WEc0wgMFE&feature=plcp (buffering SD :/ )
Maybe with help I can improve

 

[Claire Diviner]

I noticed you roll a little more often than needed, not that you constantly roll or anything. If you must roll, be sure it's away from the opponent; not towards them. Try not to rely heavily on the Wizard Kick to get onto the stage, since the lag from landing can - and usually will - result in you getting punished unnecessarily. Overall, I find it hard to really judge any character performance based on a wi-fi match, only because seeing as it's wi-fi and the input lag is always present, it's virtually impossible to measure one's skill in precision. Also, don't use Fsmash too much unless you intend to kill with it; using it too much too early can stale it, preventing it to kill when it needs to. Hope this helps.

 

[stingers]

dio got first in his pool at SRT.
no word on his character usage, but if he went ganon...REDICULOUS!

 

[DLA]

Damn. I'm super jealous, even if he didn't go Ganon. Just when I started trash talking Dio, he does something like this...insert foot in mouth. Japan's scary as ****.

Rizen you should post the match in the video critique thread. I'll try to get around to it soon.

 

[Vermanubis]

I asked Vinnie. Dio went Snake. He apparently almost never, if not straight up does not, use Ganon in tournament.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dio only uses Snake in tourney, maybe Ganon in pools or something.

 

[Bloodynite]

what a shame oh well

 

[Rizen]

Thanks for the help and welcome

The Zelda forums were talking about the Ganon/Zelda MU. What do you Ganon mains think it is?

link:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=201878&page=1
(posts 18+)