Ganonic Grimoire (Social) - Commiseration and Hierarchy

[A2ZOMG]

I've played a few Sheiks, and I actually find this MU easier than vs a lot of characters. In fact, without the Ftilt lock I can go as easy as a -2. Our worst weakness in this MU is our inability to punish anything she does on our shield, but she has no disjoints and we outrange her, so we can outspace her and stop her approaches pretty decently. She can gimp us, but so we can on her and that's almost the only way she can kill us.

She also has needles, incredibly hard to anti-air aerials, and a ******** grab game. Her ability to duck under the majority of Ganon's moveset is also really broken. She's much harder to space against than someone like Marth.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

The thing is, I'm always getting caught by that damn UTilt, and then I'm in the air and will be eating a lot of damage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Speaking of being in the air, it's actually totally easy for Sheik to kill Ganon. Vanish covers a lot of options when juggling and generally should be fresh.

 

[smashkng]

This is based from playing against Sheiks, and her moves having no disjoints at all has helped me so in my side. Without her Ftilt lock, it's actually much easier than people say it is. The only trouble she had on me was that nothing can be punished OoS, but luckily we can still challenge with her moves when you predict them as she has NO priority. The priority reason is why I find this MU so much easier than for example Marth. Sheik can only kill easily from like 180% from my experience, when her Bair and Dsmash starts to kill. Vanish is a pretty slow move.

I dunno what Sheik gets from landing a grab outside a juggle set-up. They don't do much damage at all, they never kill and hasn't been a big threat against me.

 

[Heartstring]

tl;dr: sheik is hard to fight against with ganon, nair is a rather good options to cover her trying to get at us with her fairnair

 

[Supreme Dirt]

fairnair

nairfair

norfair


Ban sheik.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is based from playing against Sheiks, and her moves having no disjoints at all has helped me so in my side. Without her Ftilt lock, it's actually much easier than people say it is. The only trouble she had on me was that nothing can be punished OoS, but luckily we can still challenge with her moves when you predict them as she has NO priority. The priority reason is why I find this MU so much easier than for example Marth. Sheik can only kill easily from like 180% from my experience, when her Bair and Dsmash starts to kill. Vanish is a pretty slow move.

I dunno what Sheik gets from landing a grab outside a juggle set-up. They don't do much damage at all, they never kill and hasn't been a big threat against me.

Uh, no. The F-tilt lock isn't the worst part. It's the fact that Sheik controls the **** out of Ganon.

She can camp you. She is EXTREMELY difficult to anti-air (seriously, I don't get where you think otherwise. She has some of the best mobility in the game both horizontally and vertically, and Ganon literally doesn't have a real option against most of her SHFFed aerials). Her D-smash and F-air actually beat a lot of your moves straight up. Chain is gay to space against.

Vanish is slow, but Ganon has next to no landing options. All she has to do to land it is get under you, and it's gonna hit unless you read it and commit to a Flame Choke, which can almost certainly still be punished.

Again Ganon has no landing options, so simply getting put above Sheik is extremely bad. The worst part is the fact that it is extremely difficult to avoid her grab. You commit to anything, she gets a grab. The ROB matchup for similar reasons is also terrible, because his grab controls the **** out of Ganon even if his throws aren't great.

Her crouch is also broken in this matchup. I don't get where you think Ganon simply just throws out moves and hits Sheik. No, Ganon throws out moves and gets ***** for doing that. Sheik doesn't have to commit to anything and Ganon gets ***** once he hits a button. If he shields, he gets *****. If he throws out a move, it gets punished. And he can do almost nothing to safely land once Sheik gets in on him. The F-tilt lock is simply insult to injury. Sheik just in terms of raw fundamental advantages just utterly dominates Ganon. He can't force her to do anything stupid, and she gets train wreck momentum on him stupidly easily.

 

[Exalted]

well, you say youre not going to disclose it, but are you okay from whatever it may be?

Lol, yeah, I'm fine

 

[smashkng]

Have you played against any Sheiks A2Z? Lol Sheik has a pretty slow air mobility. And if she's going to Fair as an approach you could expect it and Uair her. Have you played against any Sheiks A2Z? And A2Z you forgot that Dtilt pretty much outranges Sheik on the ground. Like Wario having a range advantage helps us wall her decently. We outranging her is a pretty good advantage, unlike against chars that outrange you like MK and Marth with a fast sword to makes you have an extremely hard time because aerial swords beat our Nair and Uair. Or maybe it's just me who's good at taking the advantage of having range and abusing lack of disjointed moves while the Sheiks are doing something extremely wrong.

 

[Heartstring]

Lol, yeah, I'm fine

good good, dont want you going awol on the world, sweden wont survive

also a2, sheik has the 30th worst horizontal mobility in the game and one of the slowest acceleration rates, better than only robs air accel. and hewr vetical mobility isnt great, yes she falls fast, yes her jump are fast too, but with no other methods of keeping in the air, she has to land pretty soon.
and if shiek is vaish below you, theres a little thing called the aerial wizkick, ganon is all about unpredictability, and not many sheiks are going to call the purple kick of murder coming to punish them :3
and dtilt her while she crouches, its longer ranged than her dtilt

 

[Supreme Dirt]

30th worst.

So 10th best.

 

[smashkng]

He just said it wrong it's 30th best not 30th worst air speed.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

There we go.

 

[Heartstring]

yeah that, its 30th best, i was jsut emphasizing how bad it is lol

ganons is better, by A2'S theorycrafting logic, we beat her in the air
no

 

[A2ZOMG]

It baffles me how ridiculously out of context you guys are. I do have an extremely old video against a Sheik though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XesIFZdO1Sc

The fact I kill him with D-air twice is honestly a miracle.

It's really ironic how the first thing you try to do to refute me is theorycraft how Sheik's low horizontal aerial top speed somehow matters. Sheik's low air horizontal movement doesn't matter. THE BOTTOM LINE is she outmaneuvers you to the extreme both horizontally and vertically. She has the run speed to go wherever she wants, and her fast fall speed as well as her RIDICULOUS jumps make her difficult as **** to anti air, especially since her aerials are all above average in terms of range/speed. And should she decide that she doesn't want to engage, needles all day. Especially B reverse needles.

Also, Vanish >>>> Aerial Wizkick. It has RIDICULOUS invincibility frames. She doesn't need to call that **** to still **** you for landing.

Lastly, since you guys got me to bother checking, I'm going to call you out on making up bull****. Sheik and Ganon have the same horizontal aerial top speed. The difference is that Sheik has MUCH better aerial acceleration than Ganon. That matters a LOT more, because Ganon can't space for **** once he moves forward in the air. Sheik on the other hand, good luck dealing with properly spaced F-airs. If you want to check for yourself, the numbers for character physics are here (ignore that it's a BBrawl site. They did not change character physics in any of their builds).
http://balancedbrawl.net/characters/ganondorf/
http://balancedbrawl.net/characters/sheik/

Seriously guys, what the ****? I mean I'm all for a good discussion, but it's blatantly clear you're just making up **** without really knowing what it all means.

 

[Heartstring]

your ganon is disgracful there, is all

if its her run sped that makes her fast, then why are you talking about her horixontal aerial movement being good? talk right son

also shield, shield the damn needles, they dont do anything to shields

timing, by the way, time the wizkick to land during the vulnerable frames, i have to do a similar thing all the time with ikes aether super armour frames

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're ridiculously bad at reading. You should feel bad for yourself honestly, because you theorycraft a hell of a lot more than I do and fail to actually understand wtf you're talking about.

It's not the aerial top speed that matters usually. What's more important is the AERIAL ACCELERATION values.

Which Sheik is by far superior than Ganon in, because it gives her a real aerial spacing game. When Ganon moves forward in the air, he has to hit you or else it's getting punished. Sheik like the majority of the cast however actually is allowed to space during mid jump. Combine this with the fact her fall speed is very difficult to react to, and the fact her aerials are fast and have good range, as well as the fact she runs and walks incredibly fast, you are not anti-airing this character often at all.

You shield against Sheik, you get *****. Plain and simple. She WANTS to condition you to shield since she ***** that option really easily, and can because her needles are fast enough to be difficult to block on reaction. Plus if you're throwing out moves to try to stop her from just utterly dominating you for free, needles still punish that for free anyway.

And what vulnerable frames? You're not punishing the vulnerable startup of her Up-B on reaction. All she has to do is get under you, hit that Up-B before you try anything, and NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, whether you land normally or wizkick, it's GONNA hit you. You have to use your midair jump (hope you don't get juggled out of this) or Flame Choke on a read to avoid that juggle if she does it right.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Seriously, just create a "A2Z argues random ****" thread. I don't mean that disrespectfully. Despite what I might say, I actually have a high regard for A2.

Blech, that leaves a sour taste in the mouth.


Anyways, I'm now convinced God hates me.

Fibromyalgia (new Latin, fibro-, fibrous tissues, Gk. myo-, muscle, Gk. algos-, pain, meaning muscle and connective tissue pain; also referred to as FM or FMS) is a medical disorder characterized by chronic widespread pain and allodynia, a heightened and painful response to pressure.[1] Fibromyalgia symptoms are not restricted to pain, leading to the use of the alternative term fibromyalgia syndrome for the condition. Other symptoms include debilitating fatigue, sleep disturbance, and joint stiffness. Some patients[2] may also report difficulty with swallowing,[3] bowel and bladder abnormalities,[4] numbness and tingling,[5] and cognitive dysfunction.[6] Fibromyalgia is frequently comorbid with psychiatric conditions such as depression and anxiety and stress-related disorders such as posttraumatic stress disorder.[7][8] Not all people with fibromyalgia experience all associated symptoms.[9] Fibromyalgia is estimated to affect 2–4% of the population,[7] with a female to male incidence ratio of approximately 9:1.[10]

And of course I had to be that 1 male with it. At least my problems the past few years make sense.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The main thing I want is I want people to stop being god**** hypocrites. Because quite frankly, a lot of you who make lame attempts to refute my arguments like to use the experience vs theorycraft argument, to which I say none of you are doing any better. It's extremely obvious when you're making up **** that is completely not true. And you guys are trying to claim that my "theorycraft" is not credible? If you're so stuck up on insisting that I don't have experience, you're also making up **** because I test stuff extensively, and I do go to tournaments.

And then you guys still have the gall to just spout whatever comes to the top of your head without actually checking first to make sure your information is correct and consistent with data. We're past the point of discovering new potentially gamebreaking ATs for the most part, so you can't hide bull**** from me.

If you ever wondered why I act like I'm smarter than everyone else, it's because it's blatantly obvious that you guys are much better at making up untrue **** than I am, and you're at least as insistent as I am about it being correct.

 

[Heartstring]

You're wrong a2

also unlucky dirt, i get your pain, well i say that, i dont actually have it, but you have my sympathy...despite the fact i main ike

 

[A2ZOMG]

If that really is your last response, I'll just revel in the fact that the other side is indefensible. After all, you've spent enough time making up nonsense that is clearly wrong. All you've proven is that my opposition is not only at least as stubborn as I am, they also know far less about what they're talking about.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

a2z is right here i think

 

[_Dice]

So, Ganons. I am MMing someone soon Ganon vs Metaknight, on Rainbow, then Brinstar, then Delfino. what exactly should i be on the look out to take advantage of.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

look for your opponent to turn his head away from you so that you can get behind him and snap his neck

 

[_Dice]

hahah i'm aware that the matchup is almost entirely in MK's favor and then on those stages it's even worse, but i mean which part of the stages should i try to get my damage in, which should i be attempting to play defensively ect.

 

[Heartstring]

If that really is your last response, I'll just revel in the fact that the other side is indefensible. After all, you've spent enough time making up nonsense that is clearly wrong. All you've proven is that my opposition is not only at least as stubborn as I am, they also know far less about what they're talking about.

my point is that you cant make set in stone statements on playing characters in a game like this, go play mortal combat or something where you end someones life with one combo please
we dont appreciate your input

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Dice.
You're amazing.

 

[Exalted]

Random WiFi matches anyone?

 

[Bloodynite]

hmmm clearly the ganon boards has been over flooded with salt....

 

[TP]

Instead of Ganonic Grimoire (Social), this should be called Salty Saltgasm (Salt).

 

[A2ZOMG]

The irony is I don't actually recall anyone becoming salty strictly speaking.

And personally I think if there is a matchup that actually isn't as bad for Ganon as we think it is, it might be Samus. Most likely a 5 point difference, but I don't see it being any worse than 70/30. I personally say 65/35 her favor. Killing her is always going to be extremely difficult, but getting in is totally realistic. Just you're limited to like 2 moves for damaging her most of the time, and you have to outplay her somewhere down the line if you want to kill her at reasonable percents. Either for an edgeguard or a random fresh B-air/F-air.

 

[Heartstring]

oh youre not going into this matchup again...
its samus, you dont edgeguard

 

[A2ZOMG]

Says the person who insists that you can't make absolute statements for this game. /trollface

Grabbing the edge is a good start, since it stops her from tethering. If you caught her whiffing the tether, you have a much better chance of hitting her with something.

 

[Exalted]

Isn't there supposed to be a thread for discussing matchups?
Oh wait, this is the Ganon boards. Of course there isn't one.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Isn't there supposed to be a thread for discussing matchups?
Oh wait, this is the Ganon boards. Of course there isn't one.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279618

 

[Bloodynite]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279618

Warning! The last reply to this thread was posted several months ago. Please make sure you are not unnecessarily bumping this thread before replying.

 

[Exalted]

I knew someone would try to set me straight. Even so, I was only being sarcastic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ray Kalm is very srs business. I respect him for that. =P

 

[Heartstring]

okay so you got me there, but the idea of going ofstage against samus isnt the smartest one i can think of

 

[Supreme Dirt]

iunno, A2Z. I'm just really worried about getting beat offstage. My going offstage against Samus is basically a WKC -> BAir, and then DJ -> Up-B as quickly as possible to avoid getting gimped.