Ganonic Grimoire (Social) - Commiseration and Hierarchy

[Noobicidal]

If you don't have any kind of results as Ganon, then one can't presume they're using him properly to lend credence to experiential claims.

 

[Bloodynite]

Trolling...

TROLLING EVERYWHERE

 

[Exalted]

Look what has become of the Ganon boards. Theorycrafting.

 

[Bloodynite]

just rename the ganon boards

THEORY GENERATORS

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Or Murder Boards.

 

[DLA]

I love how A2Z is completely ignoring Verm's pretentious comments... way to stay above the influence bro.

Verm you should stop being unchill towards A2Z. It's just a game bro.

Spoiler

bro.

 

[Exalted]

Oh man, look at DAT A2Z.

Spoiler

random joke fail

 

[Heartstring]

Oh man, look at DAT A2Z.

Spoiler

random joke fail

i admit, i laughed...hard

 

[Vermanubis]

I love how A2Z is completely ignoring Verm's pretentious comments... way to stay above the influence bro.

Verm you should stop being unchill towards A2Z. It's just a game bro.

Spoiler

bro.

You're always taking little stabs at me.

 

[DLA]

You're always taking little stabs at me.

I'm not trying to take stabs at you Verm... I'm just defending A2Z because everyone seems to be ganging up on him. Saying that he isn't allowed to discuss matchups because he doesn't have sufficient tournament experience with Ganon seems very pretentious to me... I usually try to pull my punches when someone says something that rubs me the wrong way, but to me, there was no way around this one.

IMO Verm you can be pretentious at times, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. Sometimes your posts just come off as very pretentious... that's just the way you post. I've seen tons of other people say the same thing to you in your blogs, and it didn't seem to bother you then.

I don't have a hidden agenda against you or anything lol... I wouldn't talk to you on skype or visit your streams or anything if I had any issues with you. I just wanted to defend A2Z because he's a very knowledgeable player who has given the game a lot of thought (more thought than most of us probably).

It's fine if you disagree with him, and it's fine if you argue against his points... but completely invaliding his opinion entirely on the the basis that he doesn't play Ganondorf in tournament is just not cool. If that was the case, then we'd be the only two people who would be allowed to talk about Ganon matchups/stages on Smashboards. We might as well just forgo Smashboards and chat about it in Skype.

Just let everyone state their opinions without personally attacking each other.


So I'm sorry if I offended you or anything... I'm not taking little stabs at you. If I have a problem with someone, then I don't take little stabs... I go for the decapitation lmao.

 

[Vermanubis]

I getcha, but just as I may come off as pretentious without any such mentality or meaning, sometimes what you say comes off a bit jagged, even if you don't intend it to. As for the pretense, everyone on the planet who I've spoken with thinks I come off as pretentious in my writing, but as I've said an equal amount of times, the words I use are habitual, and not calculated to intellectually intimidate people.

And I agree with treating A2 better. The problem is that I wasn't attacking him, nor have I ever. I always, always acknowledge his general competence, but I also make it a point to acknowledge that his theories have virtually no experience to be backed up with. If someone who has no results as a given character is insisting he/she is correct about something regarding the character, then what else am I to say? It's blunt, but unfortunately accurate. His theories contradict those of most top players, which is obviously saying something. I don't attack people's character unless they're blatant four-flushers.

I don't have anything against A2. I think he's a fine person. I just wish he'd give way sometimes and listen to other people who do have the experience.

 

[Noobicidal]

If I have a problem with someone, then I don't take little stabs... I go for the decapitation lmao.

But that's not neeeeearly as fun!


Also, obligatory quote and reaction.

I just wish he'd give way sometimes and listen to other people who do have the experience.

Spoiler

I went for classy this time.

 

[Heartstring]

anyone is allowed to discuss match up points.
but how are they useful is the points being given are wrong?
i learnt that a while ago, thats why i dont tend to get to deep into matchups

 

[A2ZOMG]

I getcha, but just as I may come off as pretentious without any such mentality or meaning, sometimes what you say comes off a bit jagged, even if you don't intend it to. As for the pretense, everyone on the planet who I've spoken with thinks I come off as pretentious in my writing, but as I've said an equal amount of times, the words I use are habitual, and not calculated to intellectually intimidate people.

And I agree with treating A2 better. The problem is that I wasn't attacking him, nor have I ever. I always, always acknowledge his general competence, but I also make it a point to acknowledge that his theories have virtually no experience to be backed up with. If someone who has no results as a given character is insisting he/she is correct about something regarding the character, then what else am I to say? It's blunt, but unfortunately accurate. His theories contradict those of most top players, which is obviously saying something. I don't attack people's character unless they're blatant four-flushers.

I don't have anything against A2. I think he's a fine person. I just wish he'd give way sometimes and listen to other people who do have the experience.

You claim I don't have experience, when in fact I've been using Brinstar as a CP in tournament. You can criticize me for the fact that yes, I don't really play Ganon in tournament. But if you're going to claim that I don't have experience with Brinstar to back the fact that I know who is good and bad on it, I'm going to have to object. I can confidently say I'm MORE experienced than you concerning how to use and abuse Brinstar, given that I've experimented with it with no less than 5 characters, each of who benefits and gets hurt by Brinstar to extremely different extents, and played other people in person on that stage who use entirely different characters from me.

Also, most of the top players for this game make a LOT of mistakes that make me shake my head. I could probably count on one hand the number of TRULY good players for Brawl. Not just ones that have good results, ones that actually can fully understand how to make intelligent decisions. M2K is obviously one of them.

How many times early on has M2K made amazing observations about the game that a huge number of players disagreed with, only to discover that later he in fact was correct? I'm not going to claim that I'm as well researched as M2K, but to be frank I've long given up on solely listening to the input of top players when for the most part it is blatantly obvious that their opinions are not necessarily any more intelligent than that of any other average player who is capable of making good observations. I'm going to be non-discriminating and put more priority on my own opinions over anyone elses because I do sincerely believe that the vast majority of players, including top players, still fail to play based on intelligent decision making in key areas. The main difference between you Verm, and me is that your execution is better. If you're telling me to listen to you for the sake of the fact that your results are better, it's an argument that is meaningless to me. And the irony is how you claim my opinions differ a lot from that of top players, and I remember someone claiming that I am incapable of thinking outside of the box. I like to think I'm much better at thinking outside of the box than most people when I'm able to discover things like Bucket Braking and make U-air out of shield common knowledge. My ability to think outside the box why I can find Ganondorf interesting and fun to play. To the people who disagree with me, that's unfortunate. All I interpret in them are people who are at least as stubborn as I am, but also unwilling to take things to the next level.

My goal is to observe and educate and to improve the quality of other players, and I will be extremely non-discriminating even if it's to my expense. This doesn't mean I don't respect top players. Results however are meaningless in the pursuit of general improvement unless you're around M2K's level. Probably the main thing I expect of people who listen to me is to understand that my intentions are not self-centered. People seem to think I come off that way since I hold nothing against making it clear when a player better than me did really stupid things. I'm merely being non-discriminating, although there are some expectations to be desired from people who are supposedly considered good. I don't like it when people don't meet my expectations.

Now I've said enough about why Ganon has problems. The stage that people should ACTUALLY be trying to learn for CP potential is Rainbow Cruise. Rainbow Cruise as a whole is a much less adverse stage for most characters than Brinstar once you fundamentally learn how to navigate the rising section and the pendlum. All in all I feel Rainbow Cruise has a lot of potential for balancing a lot of matchups. In many ways I see it as the antithesis of Brinstar. Brinstar is a stage that is polarizing to the extreme and favors very specific types of spacing and stage control. RC however gives most characters a lot more freedom to make up their mind about how they want to establish their gameplan. Well, just avoid it if you're Bowser. Playing against a MK and G&W here is also moderately stupid, but imo it's nowhere nearly as terrible as playing MK on Brinstar.

 

[Noobicidal]

I can confidently say I'm MORE experienced than you concerning how to use and abuse Brinstar

Can you prove it?

Results however are meaningless

I don't care if this is out of context; I still laughed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you read my posts I made recently, I've already proven through detailed explanation why several specific characters benefit more from Brinstar than Ganon. I don't like hearing vague arguments like "Ganon can cause chaos on Brinstar" or wrong information like "the platforms are good for him, and sliding approach and hitlag shenanigans are really good". The reasons are simple and verifiable, and only require players to understand THE POINT of playing on Brinstar.

The terrain limits Ganon's aerial spacing. The platforms are bad for his pressure and control game since like most characters he really just can't threaten someone who shieldcamps on the side platforms on Brinstar without being allowed to stand directly under the platform. And the lava is generally more likely to hurt Ganon than it is to benefit him. Various characters who are decent at camping are also clearly worse matchups for Ganon on Brinstar.

I've spent much time experimenting with Brinstar with multiple characters, Ganon included, outside of the fact I've used Brinstar as a CP in tournament. Verm furthermore claims he is not comfortable with Brinstar, which is something I can't say of myself given that I use this stage fairly often.

People fail to understand that Brinstar is a stage that ****s on the options of the vast majority of the cast. The vast majority of the cast hates the platform layout because they lose the option of U-tilt/U-smash from below the platforms, which in turn means they literally cannot stop a platform camper from abusing jump out of shield to stay safe without an extremely hard read. The lava, the spaced platforms, and occasionally the terrain also is pretty good at ruining a number of conventional strategies. Characters who lack projectiles that are good at covering vertical space find that their camping is also more limited on Brinstar. As a result there are only a few characters who explicitly benefit from Brinstar.

 

[stingers]

if other chars get screwed over more than ganon does, doesn't that make it positive in the end? 8]

 

[A2ZOMG]

The only characters who clearly get screwed over more than Ganon by Brinstar are the ICs and Falco to be frank. Although it they only get screwed more in comparison. They're still better characters than Ganon.

Other characters at least have mobility to make them fail less as a result of lava rises and terrain. As well as the fact they are more able to capitalize on other people who get put in bad positions by the lava. The fact that Brinstar generally screws over characters just means it hurts Ganon worse for the most part since he doesn't have very many options in the first place. When you're a character that doesn't have many options, you want the stage to give more options, not take them away. When there's more options, player skill has more of an effect of the turnout. But on Brinstar, where a lot of options are lost or polarized to the extreme, it's easy for matchup stupidity to run rampant on that stage.

There's only a few characters who explicitly benefit from Brinstar. Metaknight mainly. Characters like Mario, G&W, Luigi, and Jiggs also get some nice things out of the stage, but above all Metaknight is just unbelievably unfair on Brinstar. Everyone else clearly loses options and gains very little from Brinstar.

Rainbow Cruise to be frank I'd put priority on learning, since I generally feel it's a better stage at balancing matchups.

 

[stingers]

ganon doesnt get as screwed as hard as you think lol. ganon can pressure people on the platforms well either way and tbh even during the lava he is able to hold his own lol. there is a problem when you rely too much on theory and just start believing situations to be hopeless before you even play in them. there is always an answer -_-

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon's platform pressure SUCKS on Brinstar. If Ganon wants to platform pressure on Brinstar, I'm just going to angle shield down and laugh as he can do nothing to stop me from safely jumping out of shield. This is my basic strategy on Brinstar. There are only four characters in the game who have good platform pressure on Brinstar. Metaknight, Mario, G&W, and Luigi.

This isn't theory, this is observation from experimentation and playing people in matches.

 

[Bloodynite]

Ganon does not have sh**y platform pressure on brinstar

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bloodynite, don't fool yourself. I just proved that 90% of the cast has terrible platform pressure on Brinstar. Ganon isn't unique there. He just can't cover jump out of shield on this stage, so thus his platform pressure sucks.

 

[Bloodynite]

Bloodynite, don't fool yourself. I just proved that 90% of the cast has terrible platform pressure on Brinstar. Ganon isn't unique there. He just can't cover jump out of shield on this stage, so thus his platform pressure sucks.

Vids or it didnt happen

 

[A2ZOMG]

Read frame data. That's all you need to do. Ganon does not have the cooldown (or even the jump height) necessary on his aerials to reliably follow up on an opponent who shields on a platform on Brinstar. Once he touches your shield with an aerial, you can easily react with a jump out of shield and not take damage.

The ONLY characters in the game who are actually able to follow up on jump out of shield after an aerial are Metaknight (after U-air), Mario (after D-air), G&W (after N-air), and Luigi (after F-air).

 

[stingers]

lol if u jump oos against uair, u just get punished later. that doesnt solve anything. uair is a **** anti air whether u admit it or not >.> this is why theory bros is stupid

 

[Noobicidal]

That's all you need to do.

That's all you ever do.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon doesn't have the mobility to do this. For the most part he HAS to commit to jumping offstage if he U-airs to pressure you. The fact he has to do this means he has to work to land and reset his position. It takes too long to maintain any real pressure after that. Not forgetting that his jump height is terrible.

 

[stingers]

ganon does have the mobility because the stage is so small and the outside platforms cover what would be easy escape routes to the ledge.. why would ganon ever have to jump offstage to uair? wtf lol his uair has enough range he would never have to do that. im almost convinded ur just saying random things lmao

 

[A2ZOMG]

ganon does have the mobility because the stage is so small and the outside platforms cover what would be easy escape routes to the ledge.. why would ganon ever have to jump offstage to uair? wtf lol his uair has enough range he would never have to do that. im almost convinded ur just saying random things lmao

For reference.

I'm saying random things? I have to ask you where your logic is, because it's obvious to me you don't play this stage often.

So what if Brinstar is small? The point is Ganon and most of the cast can't actually hit you if you simply shield on the platforms. MOST characters need to be able to stand directly under the platform to have a remotely threatening platform pressure game. Ganon has to basically F-air or fullhop U-air/B-air to actually cover the entire platform without leaving the stage, and he is NOT getting any followups after that. With U-air and not leaving the stage, you're covering about half the platforms.

 

[stingers]

...uair doesnt have to cover the whole platform, u only have to cover where the opponent is. u can cover the whole platform with a tipman uair anyway but thats not the point. uair is safe and effective pressure...u are in denial lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Says the person who CLEARLY doesn't play on this stage.

The point of platform pressure is to bait someone into opening themselves into getting hit. You literally CANNOT do this with most characters on Brinstar since you lose the option of U-smash and U-tilt. They just don't have the frame data for it in their aerials. With insanely low lag aerials like MK's U-air, Mario's D-air, Luigi's F-air, and G&W's N-air, it is possible, but the ending lag on those moves is INSANELY low.

I get away with shieldcamping on platforms all the time against pretty much everyone that isn't a Metaknight main. This isn't theorycraft, it's an observation that people are failing to make.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'll restate.

Without results, you cannot possibly expect anyone to buy a word you say. If these theories were as true as professed, your results would match them. Results <do> matter in a case like this. You're wasting your time theorizing when none of it has been put in practice, at least, not effectively. I know you put work and thought into your posts, A2, but you gotta give up the ghost sometimes. As an esteemed colleague of mine pointed out, by certain statements, you're essentially implying your perspective of the game is superior to that of top players, when you have zero evidence to support yourself with. You can't expect anything <but> criticism.

Put these theories in practice, and if I'm wrong, I will gladly sew my mouth shut. Until then, I can't say you'll make much headway.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I will retort back that none of you are even TRYING to step up your game if all you are doing is trying to refute me.

I'm explaining in detail HOW to abuse Brinstar. The least you can do before claiming that I'm wrong is actually suggesting that you know how to implement the things I request of everyone. Which NOBODY has effectively conveyed to me. All I hear about people who talk about Brinstar is the lava and hitlag shenanigans. That of course is to be expected of people without above average observational skills. You should stop being in denial of that and actually TRY the stuff I suggest. Such as jumping out of shield to escape platform pressure.

And don't give make up **** that I know is wrong. Stingers, I'm especially talking to you.

 

[Vermanubis]

I will retort back that none of you are even TRYING to step up your game if all you are doing is trying to refute me.

I'm explaining in detail HOW to abuse Brinstar. The least you can do before claiming that I'm wrong is actually suggesting that you know how to implement the things I request of everyone. Which NOBODY has effectively conveyed to me.

I've read. I have reasonably successful experience which contradicts. I disagree. Theory vs. theory just creates nerd rage. It's a moot point refuting theory, because neither side can present concrete, solid back-up for such specificity, so it goes in semantic circles, which is the blood theorycrafting vampires feast upon.

 

[stingers]

a2z, if u played in tournaments, u'd realize that everything u think is wrong. thats all im saying

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not theory vs theory that's stupid. It's personal experience vs theory that makes me rage. Because there's too many people who are just really bad at making good observations.

and stingers, again you're feeding me bull*** that I know is not true. I attend tournaments. Not as often as I like, but I do. I have observed in person various top level players in my area playing, and I can understand why they are good at what they do.

 

[Noobicidal]

All I hear about people who talk about Brinstar is the lava and hitlag shenanigans. That of course is to be expected of people without above average observational skills.

Regarding Smash, you're more of a pretentious elitist than I am when it comes to anime, manga, LNs, VNs, or figurines.

Sir, I applaud your efforts.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I feel I have a right to be a little pretentious since to be frank, my track record indicates that I'm much better at discovering things that matter than most people. Bucket Braking and U-air out of shield are perhaps my favorites.

 

[stingers]

none of those things have anything to do with analyzing the game, they are just random techniques. what im trying to explain to u, is that if u actually went out and played the game, instead of sitting on a computer theorizing about it, u would realize that its far more effective in practice then ur useless theory would have u to believe.

 

[A2ZOMG]

stingers, I do play this game contrary to what you're implying. And while my execution sucks, my theory proves sound. The things that I do execute well work. And there's plenty of players who are thankful for the fact that I'm above average at video analysis.