Ganondorf

[Xzsmmc]

Keeping Ganondorf as he is makes no sense. I fail to see how Wario having a moveset loosely based off a series he's actually from is apparently unforgivable, but Ganondorf, one of the most famous villains in gaming history, is A-OK remaining a clone of a character he has absolutely nothing to do with. Not to mention that I would adore playable Black Shadow, or any new F-Zero character, clone or not.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Alright, so I'm new to this particular thread, and I just wanna ask the following:

What do you think of the idea of introducing Black Shadow as a character that took over Ganondorf's role as a Capt. Falcon clone and making Ganondorf unique?

I come from the Project M forums, where the idea is, to my absolute comolete surprise, controversial.

See, Mewtwo and Roy are in Project M because the PMBR (Project M Backroom) found a way to access the "Forbidden 7" character files to create 7 extra characters. Roy and Mewtwo take up two of the "slots" so there's room for 5 more characters. If you already know this, then sorry for being redundant.

Anyway there's a thread for discussing possible candidates for the slots (any additional characters have to have appeared in Brawl as a trophy or sticker, btw), and one of the first presented ideas was the Black Shadow / Ganondorf idea. Essentially, the new, revamped, not-a-clone Ganondorf would use a slot while the original Ganondorf would be reskinned and slightly reanimated to look like Black Shadow. Apparently, while a lot of people expressed fondness for the idea, there was also a sizeable, very loud group of people who wanted Ganondorf to stay the same. Some provide a few good reasons:

1) why redo a character we already have in Smash but not other clones?

2) maybe the very few slots should go to other characters instead (Isaac, Ridley, Dark Samus, etc.)

3) some people say Black Shadow isn't the ideal F-Zero rep after Capt. Falcon, sahing that Samurai Goroh better deserves it.


These are good reasons to live with Ganondorf sticking as a clone even with the opportunity to change that is present. However, there are a few reasons people give that are extremely base-breaking and borderline mean-spirited:

1) Black Shadow is "really stupid-looking," having to play him to keep playing the Capt. Falcon clone is going to feel "f*cking ********."

2) Ganondorf shouldn't be changed because "surprisingly, this is a game for Smash fans, not Zelda fans, so they should just deal with it."

And, my favorite,

3) Ganondorf as a clone of Capt. Falcon is actually "perfect sense" because he has the Triforce of Power, therefore being a physical fighter is completely fitting and revamping him is wrong.


I could counterargue all 3 of those for days, but the problem that flame wars come up in the Clone Engine Character thread every single time the idea is mentioned persists, so it's no use.


What I came here for, and the purpose of this post, is to ask if Smash 4 forumgoers feel different, or the same way. Thoughts?

Since samurai goroh the obvious 2nd f-zero character is an assist, no

 

[Sharkarat]

The only move I'd really keep as is would be Flame Choke, as that's a very Ganondorf like move. Almost everything else could use a tweak or change (though somes ok to keep like Sparta Kick or Jab).

Sparta Kick is taken from TP so there's no need to change it.

Alright, so I'm new to this particular thread, and I just wanna ask the following:
What do you think of the idea of introducing Black Shadow as a character that took over Ganondorf's role as a Capt. Falcon clone and making Ganondorf unique?

I personally don't care about the current moveset so I don't care if it's kept or not.

These are good reasons to live with Ganondorf sticking as a clone even with the opportunity to change that is present. However, there are a few reasons people give that are extremely base-breaking and borderline mean-spirited:
1) Black Shadow is "really stupid-looking," having to play him to keep playing the Capt. Falcon clone is going to feel "f*cking ********."

Going for a better worded version of this is a legitimate reason. People might just not like Black Shadow. And (in the context of Project M) doing it, would "force" people to switch someone they don't like. The thinking behind the Black Shadow idea is to make both sides happy, but this argument is mostly that it wouldn't.

2) Ganondorf shouldn't be changed because "surprisingly, this is a game for Smash fans, not Zelda fans, so they should just deal with it."

In the context of Project M, I can agree with this one. In the context of Smash 4 I don't.

3) Ganondorf as a clone of Capt. Falcon is actually "perfect sense" because he has the Triforce of Power, therefore being a physical fighter is completely fitting and revamping him is wrong.

While I don't agree with it I can see where they coming from.

 

[Priap0s]

I posted this in the Ike-thread aswell:

How would you recieve Ganondorf taking Ike's (if Ike where to be cut) moveset? To me the moveset would make some sense. He'd get to use his sword and have more of a heavy hitting swordman style. Personally I think I'd actually would be okey with it. I would ofcourse prefer a unique moveset for Ganondorf involving both dark magic and sword but I would prefer this over Captain Ganondorf again.

 

[Sharkarat]

Would dislike it. Would be no better than what he currently has, or worse if Ganondorf doesn't keep Flame Choke and Sparta Kick.
While both have swords, I think Ike's moves would be unfitting for Ganondorf.
If Ike where to be cut I would rather have hos moveset on Chrom or something.

 

[Knuckles the Knuckles]

I'd be ok with this. I hold no real attachment to any of Ganon's current moves, and he needs a makeover of ANY kind. Just make the flames purple, MAYBE change few animations around to make it more Ganon-esque and there ya go. Heck, if Ike was to stay then how about mixing few Falcon moves with few Ike moves, combining all the attacks that seem most fitting for Ganon.

But obviously, the ideal solution would be him having an unique moveset still.

 

[Priap0s]

Would dislike it. Would be no better than what he currently has, or worse if Ganondorf doesn't keep Flame Choke and Sparta Kick.
While both have swords, I think Ike's moves would be unfitting for Ganondorf.
If Ike where to be cut I would rather have hos moveset on Chrom or something.

Really? I actually find it more fitting for Ganondorf (just some added visual effects, like his purple flames) than for Chrom. Chrom doesn't strike me as that kind of heavy hard hitting swords man. This is only based on seeing pictures of him though, I haven't played that FE game. So take my view on that with a grain of salt!

 

[Sharkarat]

Really? I actually find it more fitting for Ganondorf (just some added visual effects, like his purple flames) than for Chrom. Chrom doesn't strike me as that kind of heavy hard hitting swords man. This is only based on seeing pictures of him though, I haven't played that FE game. So take my view on that with a grain of salt!

I Haven't played FE either, so I don't know much either.
Ike is Heavy hitting swordman, but here is were his similarities with Ganondorf ends. In concept (heavy swordman) it fits, but the actual moves imo doesn't. I think a lot of Ike's moves feels too "acrobatic" for Ganondorf.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I personally don't care about the current moveset so I don't care if it's kept or not.
Going for a better worded version of this is a legitimate reason. People might just not like Black Shadow. And (in the context of Project M) doing it, would "force" people to switch someone they don't like. The thinking behind the Black Shadow idea is to make both sides happy, but this argument is mostly that it wouldn't.
In the context of Project M, I agree with this one. In the context of Smash 4 I don't.
While I don't agree with it I can see where they coming from.

Thanks, I think I have a clearer understanding of Project M players' opinions, especially with the the middle point. It's too understandable and makes too much sense, so I'll duck out now.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

 

[Radical Larry]

First, I think Ganondorf's air speed needs a huge buff, whilst his falling speed should go slower. When it comes to armor placement, he could be similar to Bowser in SSB4, being able to resist low-damaging attacks. I also personally think that, if Ganondorf doesn't receive his sword, his special attacks could be based off of the Street Fighter characters. First, his specials could be:

Neutral Special: Dark Dragon Fist (which is similar to Hadoken), in which he shoots up to two balls of darkness at the opponent, both dealing 15% damage each. The attack, however, needs to be charged and when it comes out, it's particularly slow, as to balance the attack.

Side Special: Izuna Drop, in which he heads for the opponent at a fast speed, grabs them and drops them head-first to the ground. Holding the B button while this happens would cause the "Rolling Izuna Drop", in which the opponent is dropped thrice. The singular one does 13% damage, whilst the rolling one does 10%, 4% and 5%, respectively. The attack works similarly to Flame Choke, where he falls to helpless.

Down Special: Psycho Crusher, where he uses Bison's Psycho Crusher and hits the opponent. It works similarly to Wizard's Foot, with the exception that it propels Ganondorf up a bit if used in the air, as to not KO him if a player mistakenly uses the attack off the ledge (which some players tend to do).

Up Special: Gerudo Uppercut, an attack where Ganondorf is propelled the highest in any Smash game and performs an uppercut attack. The uppercut deals 18% damage, while using Smash will cause Ganondorf to spin while doing it, causing for two hits of flame damage causing 13% and 10%, respectively.

This is my opinion on Ganondorf's status. Even though these probably won't get in, I hope that Sakurai changes him up drastically if Ganondorf does come back. These are just out-of-the-box ideas I had in my head, and to be honest, shouldn't be taken that seriously.

 

[Khao]

I posted this in the Ike-thread aswell:

How would you recieve Ganondorf taking Ike's (if Ike where to be cut) moveset? To me the moveset would make some sense. He'd get to use his sword and have more of a heavy hitting swordman style. Personally I think I'd actually would be okey with it. I would ofcourse prefer a unique moveset for Ganondorf involving both dark magic and sword but I would prefer this over Captain Ganondorf again.

To be honest, that'd be even worse than Ganondorf keeping his Brawl moves. At least they tried to change some of his moves a little bit to make him a little more Ganondorf-y, like his side special as well as some grounded moves here and there, I wouldn't be too mad if they just went further in this direction in Smash 4, keeping a sort of Falcon base, but keep doing changes like Brawl did so he's even more unique. Of course, my ideal is Ganon getting a completely new moveset built from the ground up to the point he basically feels like another newcomer, but if that's not an option, for whatever reason, I'd rather stay like he is with a few further extra adjustments.

Ike's moveset? Talk about unfitting, the only thing Ganondorf has in common with Ike is that they're both heavyweight characters with a sword. And that's just by looking at Twilight Princess while ignoring every other game in the series. In TWW he was an extremely fast and agile, dual-wielding swordsman, and in OoT (his first appearance) he didn't even get to use a sword at all, never used anything other than magic.

So yeah, I wouldn't like that. Like, at all. My butt would be filled with a lot of hurt.

 

[Priap0s]

Ike's moveset? Talk about unfitting, the only thing Ganondorf has in common with Ike is that they're both heavyweight characters with a sword. And that's just by looking at Twilight Princess while ignoring every other game in the series.

I was assuming that would be the appereance we would get for Ganondorf this game. If Ganondorf would get any of his other appereances I agree, Ike's moveset would not fit at all. I do think that it fits Twilight Ganondorf though. Just add some visual effect like they did with his Captain Falcon moves. Oh, and this is assuming Ike was cut btw. Just making Ganon a clone of a different character would be really silly and almost an insult to all of us that want him decloned ^^

 

[Sharkarat]

I was assuming that would be the appereance we would get for Ganondorf this game. If Ganondorf would get any of his other appereances I agree, Ike's moveset would not fit at all. I do think that it fits Twilight Ganondorf though. Just add some visual effect like they did with his Captain Falcon moves.

I'm pretty sure he mean it's unfitting even when just looking at TP.
And effects wouldn't change the way he swings the sword, which is where I find Ike unfitting. A slower version of Marth's moveset would be just as fitting as Ike's.

Oh, and this is assuming Ike was cut btw. Just making Ganon a clone of a different character would be really silly and almost an insult to all of us that want him decloned ^^

While it would be better for Ike fans, for Ganondorf fans it would be Insulting even if Ike is cut.
And if Ike is cut it's most likely because we got a new FE character, which probably could take the moveset.

 

[Floor]

No matter what, I'd like to see him (if he returns) fighting with a sword. Not just martial arts.

 

[egaddmario]

I would prefer Ganondorf without his sword to be honest- I like the brutality of his attacks. He doesn't need a sword or weapon. He just needs magic. Specifically he needs the dead man's volley- it's so iconic. And since Sakurai is changing models to be more in line with recent models, i hope he changes Ganondorf too.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

First, I think Ganondorf's air speed needs a huge buff, whilst his falling speed should go slower. When it comes to armor placement, he could be similar to Bowser in SSB4, being able to resist low-damaging attacks. I also personally think that, if Ganondorf doesn't receive his sword, his special attacks could be based off of the Street Fighter characters. First, his specials could be:

Neutral Special: Dark Dragon Fist (which is similar to Hadoken), in which he shoots up to two balls of darkness at the opponent, both dealing 15% damage each. The attack, however, needs to be charged and when it comes out, it's particularly slow, as to balance the attack.

Side Special: Izuna Drop, in which he heads for the opponent at a fast speed, grabs them and drops them head-first to the ground. Holding the B button while this happens would cause the "Rolling Izuna Drop", in which the opponent is dropped thrice. The singular one does 13% damage, whilst the rolling one does 10%, 4% and 5%, respectively. The attack works similarly to Flame Choke, where he falls to helpless.

Down Special: Psycho Crusher, where he uses Bison's Psycho Crusher and hits the opponent. It works similarly to Wizard's Foot, with the exception that it propels Ganondorf up a bit if used in the air, as to not KO him if a player mistakenly uses the attack off the ledge (which some players tend to do).

Up Special: Gerudo Uppercut, an attack where Ganondorf is propelled the highest in any Smash game and performs an uppercut attack. The uppercut deals 18% damage, while using Smash will cause Ganondorf to spin while doing it, causing for two hits of flame damage causing 13% and 10%, respectively.

This is my opinion on Ganondorf's status. Even though these probably won't get in, I hope that Sakurai changes him up drastically if Ganondorf does come back. These are just out-of-the-box ideas I had in my head, and to be honest, shouldn't be taken that seriously.

Why not just put Akuma in while we're at it?

 

[ToothiestAura]

I want him to be changed, but I actually want him to keep Flame Choke. Everything else can change, but that move is great. Some other stuff is probably okay for him to keep, but that's the only part of him I like.

 

[CadePirate]

JUST GIVE HIM A SWORD

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I agree that Ike's moveset doesn't really fit Ganondorf. It does however fit Ganondorf far better than Captain Falcon. Ideally Ganondorf would receive a unique moveset but a cross between Ike's and his Brawl moveset would be a good fit to me.

 

[Radical Larry]

Why not just put Akuma in while we're at it?

Those were my opinions; I just thought that since Ganondorf is a dark character, he could have dark/deadly moves. Again, these were on the top of my head and most likely wouldn't even make it. I just hope Beast Ganon is replaced.

 

[Sharkarat]

And I would like to see someone make a good argument for why Ike's moveset fit Ganondorf, that's more than "he has a sword".
Because when analysing if it actually fits, I really don't see it.
Ike use a two-handed sword, Ganondorf always use one-handed one. Even the attacks where Ike uses one hand it's still clear what kind of sword he swings. And Aether and Up tilt are attack that would be particularly unfitting. Marth would be just as good if not better if Ganondorf where to be clone of a swordman.
And to make it clear, making him an Ike clone would be a step backwards. Ganondorf has attacks that are from Zelda (or at least looks similar), in his Forward Smash, Forward Tilt, and Flame choke. And if we start mixing we might just as well be original, because Ike only has like 2-3 moves that really fits Ganondorf.

 

[Priap0s]

...

Wouldn't say he was an Ike clone per say if Ike was cut though. And yes, they share being heavy hitting, slower swords men and thats it. Thats still two more similaritys then you got between Ganondorf and the slim, speedy, close combat, fist & kick fighting, racing, bounty hunter Captain Falcon :D

Funny how different we can view it. The up tilt is one of the moves I would find most fitting/easy to give a "Ganon flair". You also have to realize that for a moveset to get carried over, all that needs to be copied is the hitboxes and speed (not even that would have to be exactly the same. Speed, hitboxes, lag, knockback. Everything could be adjusted while still remaining true to the moveset and playstyle. It's a new entry in teh sereis too, every moveset gets adjusments). Visuals however could and should change greatly. I dont get how you can find it so hard to make, for example, Ikes forward B fitting for Ganondorf? In some moves Ganon could even refrain from using the sword and instead have dark magic based moves that cover the same hitboxes and speed. I gotta say I think the task of making Ike's moveset fitting for Ganondorf should be an easy one for any game designer. It might not remain very true to his games but it should easily be made to be ATLEAST as true and fitting as his current moveset, if not more.

And this wasn't about mixing things in. This was a purely hyphotetical scenario where Ike was cut and it would be either Ganondorf taking over his movest or remaining a CF clone/semi clone. Obviously we all would rather have Ganondorf get his own new unique moveset. I just think you and I view this entirely different and I guess we will jsut have to settle with "agree to disagree".

 

[Sharkarat]

Wouldn't say he was an Ike clone per say if Ike was cut though. And yes, they share being heavy hitting, slower swords men and thats it. Thats still two more similaritys then you got between Ganondorf and the speedy, close combat, fist & kick fighting, Captain Falcon :D

Removing the part of Falcon's moveset that didn't have anything to do with the movset, also noting that Ganon's version isn't speedy. Also he do use fist & kick fighting, but in combination with Magic or Sword.

Funny how different we can view it. The up tilt is one of the moves I would find most fitting/easy to give a "Ganon flair". You also have to realize that for a moveset to get carried over, all that needs to be copied is the hitboxes and speed (not even that would have to be exactly the same. Speed, hitboxes, lag, knockback. Everything could be adjusted while still remaining true to the moveset and playstyle. It's a new entry in teh sereis too, every moveset gets adjusments). Visuals however could and should change greatly. I dont get how you can find it so hard to make, for example, Ikes forward B fitting for Ganondorf? In some moves Ganon could even refrain from using the sword and instead have dark magic based moves that cover the same hitboxes and speed.

They would have to put so much work into making it fit Ganondorf, I would rather have something original. Or just keep Ike, cause Ganondorf only need small modifications to make him a good Magic+Melee Ganon.

And this wasn't about mixing things in. This was a purely hyphotetical scenario where Ike was cut and it would be either Ganondorf taking over his movest or remaining a CF clone/semi clone. Obviously we all would rather have Ganondorf get his own new unique moveset. I just think you and I view this entirely different and I guess we will jsut have to settle with "agree to disagree".

The reason we disagree is that I don't care about Ike' moveset. I'm a Ganondorf fan and your idea is just a compromise that makes none of the sides happy. Ike is still cut and Ganondorf still wouldn't get his own moveset. Like someone said in the Ike thread this work best for those that aren't huge fans of any of them.
I'm not against Ganondorf having somewhat similar playstyle to Ike. Absolutely nothing against him having sword in the moveset. I just think the work needed to make the moveset fit Ganondorf would be better spend making an original one. so we'll probably "agree to disagree".

 

[Sonicguy726]

I just want his brawl moveset with a sword for better range a new up and down B and for his neutral b to be a chargable projectile, that way everyone is happy

 

[Priap0s]

Stuff... agree to disagree

Nah, actually we can just agree on this one. The starting point from where I thought about this was: Ike getting cut, Ganondorf won't get his own new, unique moveset. That was the rules for my hyphotetical idea/discussion. Just like you I want Ganon to get a new and unique moveset most of all (and Ike too stay or new FE-rep to take his moveset. Don't find the top candidates very fitting for it though, but w/e).

So agreed that we hope ganondorf finally gets his own moveset. Disagree on worst case scenario where Ganondorf will remain a clone/semi-clone (I prefer Ganondorf with tweaked Ike moveset over tweaked Captain Falcon moveset. You the other way around).

 

[Diddy Kong]

@ Priap0s : Did you play Fire Emblem 9 and 10?

 

[Priap0s]

@ Priap0s : Did you play Fire Emblem 9 and 10?

Yes sir, both of them!
FE9 was actually the first FE game I ever played (and remains my favourite). Since then I've been devouring everything Fire Emblem. Love the series! :D

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

As for beast ganon, the only ones I think would be good choices are.

One of these thee should be Ganondorf's final smash.

Its inevitable that Ganon will return, think about it he's the main villain, Demise to Ganondorf is like what Agatio is to Saturos if there were to be Golden Sun villain rep, same goes with Ghirahim.

I think the only question I have is if they will put Ganondorf in with a new moveset or if possibly we'd see The Monster, Ganon?

 

[CadePirate]

As for beast ganon, the only ones I think would be good choices are.

One of these thee should be Ganondorf's final smash.

Its inevitable that Ganon will return, think about it he's the main villain, Demise to Ganondorf is like what Agatio is to Saturos if there were to be Golden Sun villain rep, same goes with Ghirahim.

I think the only question I have is if they will put Ganondorf in with a new moveset or if possibly we'd see The Monster, Ganon?

I think The link between worlds model would be the best in smash (with updated grahics of course), If any were to picked, I think it would be that one because it's the latest game.

 

[Priap0s]

Where is this one from?

 

[egaddmario]

Where is this one from?

A Link Between Worlds

 

[Priap0s]

A Link Between Worlds

Thank you sir!

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

I'm all for that YugaGanon one, unless the new Zelda game shows us a new Monster Ganon in a new Zelda Wii U game

 

[Sharkarat]

If we where to get Link between world version, I think we would get the unfused one.

Spoiler

 

[Johnny Wellens]

I feel like Brawl did a decent enough job of de-cloning him further. I'm hoping that he becomes even more decloned but doesn't put a huge focus on his sword. A few sword moves I'd be okay with but I liked him being an in-your-face brawler.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ganondorf will be TP-styled most likely. So this ugly mofo will be his Final Smash again:

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

I actually like his TP boar look, and I agree, @ Sharkarat they should use the unfuesed one, it appeared that's all that counts and it very likely just has the same moves as the fused Yuga Ganon there's no question the moves Yuga Ganon was using were Ganon's actual moves, Yuga could never use those attacks and we seen Ganon use those attacks in other games.

 

[Z1GMA]

Unfortunately, there's not enough room left in the roster for both Ganondorf and Ridley, so they're now the same character. Ridorf ~

 

[ToothiestAura]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but it seems like Sakurai is taking more from source material this time. DK finally got his Rolling Attack, Link now has the Jump Attack and Bowser and Yoshi are standing more upright now. So, maybe the 'Dorf would get something that actually belongs to him as well.

 

[smashingDoug]

Unfortunately, there's not enough room left in the roster for both Ganondorf and Ridley, so they're now the same character. Ridorf ~

they should use that in the next zelda