Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[Bazkip]

Is bair->reverse aerial flame choke guaranteed at low percents? Always seems to work, though idk could just be people messing up. Either way it's gahliek for getting a Ganoncide when your opponent is fresh off a new stock, if you can bait them towards the edge.

 

[Spralwers]

A neat little trick you can do with dash attack:

dash attack at the ledge -> hold the control stick the other way -> dorf will fall and grab the ledge. A great way to put a hit box out there and grab the ledge pretty shortly afterward.

 

[| Kailex |]

I like to do an aerial after that, its neato; also, easier tipman spikes, or stage spikes

 

[ShadowGanon]

A neat little trick you can do with dash attack:

dash attack at the ledge -> hold the control stick the other way -> dorf will fall and grab the ledge. A great way to put a hit box out there and grab the ledge pretty shortly afterward.

Seriously? That's a thing? Wow... That's weird...

 

[Scuba Steve]

I'm pretty sure that Falcon can do this as well

 

[DMG]

Yes, although I think if you hold directly towards the stage in PM, you will flip and turn towards the stage before you fall off. Melee usually/only sent you off facing offstage. Keep that in mind if you don't want to accidentally grab the edge.

 

[Stalled]

What do you guys think about following up an air flame choke>jab with another flamechoke? The times where you can chain aerial ones are pretty rare but I have had it happen a few times.

 

[GeZ]

What do you guys think about following up an air flame choke>jab with another flamechoke? The times where you can chain aerial ones are pretty rare but I have had it happen a few times.

Well when you can it's a good thing to go for, and when you can't it's not. Simple.

 

[Purple Stuff]

So I was messing wif some ganon and thought of a new option, don't think its been posted about yet.

Utilt out of wave land. Go. Do it. Like right now. It's pretty dam good. If you can start up Utilt after sliding into someone from a waveland, that first hit box that comes out from raising your leg pops fools, setting up for dat boot. It's not just that though. If you got a read on a roll or something, you can chase with it, and have that future sight boot coming down where ever you think they're gonna be. Wavelanded in reverse? No biggie, just reverse it out of waveland for extra style points. Bout the only thing it doesn't do is make ya a sandwich...yet.

Seriously though, waveland makes it pretty mobile. Kinda reminds me of a dacus. Sort of works with down smash as well, although I feel not as well. Here's an example (although not the best):

No SFX. Forgot to set to record.

Back to the lab.

 

[Brozinski]

Looks like a good mixup. I like it.

 

[GeZ]

I dig that, Purple Stuff. I'ma try that.

 

[| Kailex |]

I do that to my friend's falcon because he's dumb and doesnt ledge tech

 

[Scuba Steve]

Damn, that really does remind me of a DACUS. Liking your Ganon too, nice and slippery

 

[Yanoss1313]

So I was messing wif some ganon and thought of a new option, don't think its been posted about yet.

Utilt out of wave land. Go. Do it. Like right now. It's pretty dam good. If you can start up Utilt after sliding into someone from a waveland, that first hit box that comes out from raising your leg pops fools, setting up for dat boot. It's not just that though. If you got a read on a roll or something, you can chase with it, and have that future sight boot coming down where ever you think they're gonna be. Wavelanded in reverse? No biggie, just reverse it out of waveland for extra style points. Bout the only thing it doesn't do is make ya a sandwich...yet.

Seriously though, waveland makes it pretty mobile. Kinda reminds me of a dacus. Sort of works with down smash as well, although I feel not as well. Here's an example (although not the best):

No SFX. Forgot to set to record.

Back to the lab.

Never even thought to try that. Gonna give it a shot. Though, i feel my tech isn't quite good enough, feeling like i'll probably just end up U-smashing accidentally.

 

[Spralwers]

You know what I like doing even more than stomp -> knee?

Stomp -> ganoncide.

The higher your opponent gets stomped (at least within reachable height), the larger margin of error you have for doing the Ganoncide. Ganoncides were godlike in the 3 stock ruleset once you established a lead, particularly during BH4. I'm pretty sure I got a few unlucky souls to fear the stomp -> ganoncide more than the stomp -> knee.

 

[| Kailex |]

Stomp to ganoncide on spacies ayyyy

 

[NotaSkeleton]

How do I get out of pressure? Especially that of Lucas. I get stuck very easily it seems and don't really know my options that well.

 

[Nevermind]

How do I get out of pressure? Especially that of Lucas. I get stuck very easily it seems and don't really know my options that well.

Ganon has no reliable OoS options, so being successful with him is largely a matter of playing footsies well enough to avoid pressure situations altogether. Obviously, though, you're gonna make mistakes and people are going to get in against you, so when that happens, your best options are these: roll, wavedash, least laggy aerial of choice (nair, bair, up-air). Against Lucas, you will rarely have the time for the latter two options (six frame jumpsquat sucks), so buffering a roll with the c-stick is most often your best choice.

Edit: Woops, forgot up-b out of shield. I don't personally like it (it doesn't come out on frame 1, if landed it doesn't set up into anything, and if you miss you're screwed), but it can be a decent get-off-me option if used correctly.

 

[CORY]

pretty much that : / learn to buffer rolls with cstick and don't be predictable.

also, don't be afraid to grab if you have a good read on what their preferred tricks are. sometimes players will intentionally leave a hole in pressure to try and goad you. if you get that hard read it could get you out (not very often, but keep it in mind).

 

[NotaSkeleton]

The problem with grabbing for me is that he usually ends up behind me, so grabbing is really tricky. Unless there's some way to reverse it. As for up-b OoS, how fast is it really? It could be used as a panic move, I guess.
Otherwise, I suppose the best options is simply to not get into that situation and maybe use uair, since it covers some space behind you.

 

[GeZ]

The problem with grabbing for me is that he usually ends up behind me, so grabbing is really tricky. Unless there's some way to reverse it. As for up-b OoS, how fast is it really? It could be used as a panic move, I guess.
Otherwise, I suppose the best options is simply to not get into that situation and maybe use uair, since it covers some space behind you.

You can use C-stick to buffer rolls so that they come out as soon as you're not stuck in shield. It's best to mix it up between that and other options.

 

[Nevermind]

The problem with grabbing for me is that he usually ends up behind me, so grabbing is really tricky. Unless there's some way to reverse it. As for up-b OoS, how fast is it really? It could be used as a panic move, I guess.
Otherwise, I suppose the best options is simply to not get into that situation and maybe use uair, since it covers some space behind you.

Yeah, experienced players won't put themselves in a position to get shield grabbed very often, so it's best to be extremely conservative with when you attempt to use it. And no, there's no way to reverse your grab OoS.

As for up-b, I think the grab hitbox comes out frame 4? I could be wrong, but in any case, it's the fastest OoS option that isn't a roll.

 

[CORY]

Grab Boxes
• SpecialHi: Frames 13-33

it's slower than your grab. probably has better range, though ;x

and starting at frame 13 makes it tie with nair, and is one frame slower than uair (both, if done frame perfect).

 

[NotaSkeleton]

I don't think the frame data takes closer ranges into account. If the opponent is right next to you when you do the input, I doubt it takes a whole 13 frames to grab.

 

[CORY]

the grab comes out on frame 13. therefore, it takes 13 frames to grab.

 

[Yanoss1313]

I don't think the frame data takes closer ranges into account. If the opponent is right next to you when you do the input, I doubt it takes a whole 13 frames to grab.

that 13 frames probably accounts for the pose he does just before he starts his upward movement.

 

[NotaSkeleton]

Oh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. 13 frames sounds like a long time, but, I suppose it's not too bad. I mean, it's Ganondorf. You'll have to get used to long start-ups on pretty much everything.

 

[teluoborg]

13 frames is not too long for an option that can be reversed to grab people who try to cross up.
It's pretty bad for the rest tho.

 

[GeZ]

What do you guys think about mixing the first hit of Nair into Dthrow chains. I've found on characters that don't get chaingrabbed for very long it can transition into some good aerial combos, and for overly heavy characters it can combo and lead to regrab.

 

[Yanoss1313]

What do you guys think about mixing the first hit of Nair into Dthrow chains. I've found on characters that don't get chaingrabbed for very long it can transition into some good aerial combos, and for overly heavy characters it can combo and lead to regrab.

ooh, that sounds smexy. must try.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Hey all, Idk if it was posted here, but I'm experimenting with the cancelled aerial wiz kick to ground.

Here's the input for all of you who are curious. Just seeing if I can master the control, then seeing it's practicality (bad order but, whatever)

Short hop, **then immediately down on C-stick, Fast Fall, then as he just hits the ground, down+b.

**You'll know you go it if Ganon goes into a "Ganonball"

It's tough. You'll either activate Down+B too early or hit the ground and be crouching.
When you do get it, it feels so ... natural lol, like the momentum from his jump goes into an earthquake stomp

I'm calling it the Ganonball because yeah.

 

[GeZ]

Discovered a little while ago by Purple Stuff.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I know, but I was just testing how applicable and executable it was :$

 

[leekslap]

Hey, my people! Please check out my recently completed Ganon guide and rate it. I still need to add chain grab percents and matchups and stuff, but its at a point where it will help any newcomer Ganon a lot. Don't underrate it plz, all of the bad ratings are outdated or just plain stupid.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I know, a bit late, but I was fooling around to see if Purple Stuffs wiz kick cancel (Although it's pretty known ) could be used reliably, havent seen a vid or footage anywhere of how to execute.

This basically just goes over platform use and the quick quake from Down+B. I've found a way to do it reliably everytime, so you may be able to actually use it in matches without worry of screwing up.

I believe all it require you to do is enter a weird jump animation, this is similar to Purple Stuffs other techs. To do this and get the tech on a platform, you have to do the following:

Say Ganondorf is facing right.

Dash Left, Jump to the right (should be doing a backflip, still facing left) then as you pass through the platform, Reverse your Down B to face right.

If you see the vid, it works everytime, just need to get the timing of when to Wiz Kick. It's quick and I imagine it would actually be able to work in matches as a mixup.

Never tested on many characters but I'm sure if you dug ,there are potential Flame Choke setups.

EDIT: The first few in the video are me warming up, as they arent the quickest lol, the fourth one is the one where you get it. And the clips on Battlefield are to show its easy to do once you get the hang of it.

As an aside, even if you miss it, you still get the quake and pop up, just you won't be able to follow up bc it'll take longer for you to get out of the animation.

I should mention on moving platforms, you need not do this for some reason, just executing Down B while phasing through triggers it. +1 Smashville

 

[Purple Stuff]

I should mention on moving platforms, you need not do this for some reason, just executing Down B while phasing through triggers it. +1 Smashville

So that's what it was. I always wondered why it was so easy to do it on smashville and green hill zone. Wish all platforms were like that. Those things are sick. You can actually just drop through them and hit down-b at the same time to throw out an immediate, frame 1 hit box. Shield dropping into immediate down-b on on those platforms is some of the safest pressure/retaliation/attack ganon can do to people.

Here, I'll drop a little more info I've discovered. I've been doing something similar to what you are talking about, except it kinda works anywhere with the way I do it (platforms, ground, ledge, etc). There's something about turning down-b opposite to where you are facing that makes it come out more reliably. I think the same thing is going on with the way you discovered. I've since got the timings down tighter and can get it with a 70-90% chance of success. I can still improve it too. It's a hard tech, but not impossible.

Learn to do it out of an Up-air. specifically a reversed one. Reversed Up-Air hits close to the end of it's animation, which can lead into a fast ground cancelled down-b. If the up-air is shielded, most usually try to retaliate right after but there is normally enough shield lag to catch them coming out of shield. Auto-cancelled reversed up-air into turn around jab is good too and maybe a little faster, but I tend to like the follows up possible with ground cancelled down-b better. If they cut some ending lag off of down-b in 3.5, there will be even more options.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I'm going to try some more tech with it tonight. I've been able to get the platform cancelled version of it consistently, so it definitely has to do with Ganondorfs jumping animation. If what you say works and there is a consistent way to do this, it'll make for some interesting mixups. Basically, it's like a neutral a but sends them upwards at high percents. If you get the first frame hitbox, it'll be practical.

I think this is similar to wavelanding from ledge and on platforms, like you ganondorfs weird seconds jump allows him to do it or something. Basically it's something to do with his backjump or somersault flip.

And yeah, I think moving platforms perform the effect that i did in the video by themselves because ?????? No idea, once we get that debug mode, I think we'll be able to fiddle more.

 

[Electric Tuba]

This all seems pretty cool, but I have a couple questions (since I still don't have a Wii to test on D: )

Do you guys know mechanically what's happening, aside from something to do with jump animations? Is it possible just landing (not passing through a platform)? And is it the same timing/positioning as a perfect waveland?

I'm always excited to see new tech for G-man.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I sincerely think it has to do with weird jump animation/air animations in general. I found that dropping from a platform on battlefield, if you reverse down+b when hitting the ground, it'll do the quick-quake (dubbing it that from here on in)

This falls in line with doing at ledges that was found by Purple Stuff, as well as the other uses it has. Trying to do the Uair to it rn

 

[Purple Stuff]

This all seems pretty cool, but I have a couple questions (since I still don't have a Wii to test on D: )

Do you guys know mechanically what's happening, aside from something to do with jump animations? Is it possible just landing (not passing through a platform)? And is it the same timing/positioning as a perfect waveland?

I'm always excited to see new tech for G-man.

It's possible just landing. You don't have to pass through. Timing wise, its stricter than waveland.

Probably not the mechanical thing you're asking about, but I have a theory on why this happens. Whether it's true or not, it won't put you any closer to reliably doing the tech. But as someone who likes to fiddle with video game design, I find it very interesting to think about how these things work. So here it goes:

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/dev-blogpost-5-debug-pt-2

PMDT made that blog post a while back, and in it they wrote about landing detection and this thing called the SCD Diamond that's used to detected collisions. Now the 4 points of the diamond are always defined when on the ground or within 10 frames of air time, but after 10 frames of air the game engine dynamically tracks the lowest SCD Bone (I'm guessing this is the point of the skeletal mesh that's closest to the ground) and assigns a detection point. That's your landing detection.

So what you have is a detection point that's shifting on you. And that's where the difficulty of the tech comes into play. If, in order to pull the tech off, you have to hit down-b the very frame the detection point and ground intersect, then that means you have to hit down-b on a moving target. A point that isn't static or clearly defined and is being shifted around on you by the game engine. And you got to do it within a frame. Pff, and people say that ganon doesn't have any hard tech skill. I can multi-shine, game n watch dacus, DJC with lucas more than I can hit this. Then again, I suck so.....

I'm still not sure why you have to do a flip or rotate to be able to hit the tech. I'm actually really curious as to how the SCD Diamond behaves whenever the character model rotates. Does it also rotate? If it does, are the other points also being used as landing detection if they hit the ground first? If they are, then it's even harder than I made it out to be above. You wouldn't have one moving point but FOUR potential moving points instead. Or maybe the SCD Diamond isn't even used whenever down-b is engaged and something else having to do with its hitbox is used to detect landing.I won't really know about this until either 3.5 hits and I get my hands on debug mode, or unless someone from PMDT comes in and slaps us with some knowledge.

I can be completely wrong about everything though. I probably am.