Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[Scuba Steve]

Is Dair even worth using other than the occasional choke tech chase and Dthrow combo? I get so much more value from Fair.

GeZ, is that Joe Pass I hear?

Dair does a ****ton of damage (22%) and leads to cool ****. You shouldn't throw it out all willy nilly, but the fact that you ask if it's even worth using worries me. Believe in the stomp and the stomp will set you free. Also, shameless self plugs.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Is Dair even worth using other than the occasional choke tech chase and Dthrow combo? I get so much more value from Fair.

GeZ, is that Joe Pass I hear?

I'll answer you in haiku:

Puh-leez, always dair
It is actually good
Twenty-two percent

 

[GeZ]

Dair does a ****ton of damage (22%) and leads to cool ****. You shouldn't throw it out all willy nilly, but the fact that you ask if it's even worth using worries me. Believe in the stomp and the stomp will set you free. Also, shameless self plugs.

MF Doom in a Ganon combo vid. Good **** scuba. God damn.

 

[whoknowswhat]

For the purple stuff shimmy vid? I wanted to use a version of "You Must Believe in Spring" because it's such a beautiful song so I dug for one that would be existent without being intrusive. I didn't search by artist unfortunately so I'm not sure.

Dair does a ****ton of damage (22%) and leads to cool ****. You shouldn't throw it out all willy nilly, but the fact that you ask if it's even worth using worries me. Believe in the stomp and the stomp will set you free. Also, shameless self plugs.

I dunno, I just haven't gotten a lot out of it. Also, those back hit Uairs against Chandy. Jesus Christ.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I dunno, I just haven't gotten a lot out of it. Also, those back hit Uairs against Chandy. Jesus Christ.

Those are actually balls easy to do lol. I only put that clip in because it looks impressive to people who haven't played/seen the matchup which is pretty much everyone. Reverse upairs and upairs in general are a really great tool for edgeguarding DK.

 

[whoknowswhat]

Those are actually balls easy to do lol. I only put that clip in because it looks impressive to people who haven't played/seen the matchup which is pretty much everyone. Reverse upairs and upairs in general are a really great tool for edgeguarding DK.

They're so sexy though.

 

[teluoborg]

A successful Dair at low percents usually mean 60+% for your opponent through good follow up. So it's a pretty risky but rewarding move.

 

[Purple Stuff]

Is there a specific timing for getting that pound in after the Uair? It was sick but I can't manage it. Also, since the pound is strictly on the ground, wouldn't combos involving it always be techable?

The timing is just really tight. Game and watch's dacus has about a 1 frame window of execution. I hit that move more often than I hit this new tech. It's gonna take some practice. I think it might be ganon's hardest tech currently.

Is the hitbox only the ground?
I wish I had access to debug mode or something...

I believe it is, although it has some vertical reach due to the size. I caught samus before she hit the ground with it, so I'm thinking floaties are game.

I don't think being able to use wizard's foot after an upair would be all that useful, just by virtue of the move having a large amount of startup frames

Edit: The hitbox on aerial wizard foot is also butt

There are no start up frames, so long as you hit the tech. The hitbox comes out on frame 1. It's all ending frames after that. Check the vid in my previous post for an example (it's an essay I know, but I got alot to say).

 

[Spralwers]

I prefer using dair over fair, because dair leads to better follow ups and keeps your opponent close (thus eliminating opportunity for your opponent to camp you). But once characters go past 70% and follow ups from dair are no longer guaranteed, thats when I'd opt for a fair if I can actually pick between dair and fair.

 

[teluoborg]

So yeah I've been practicing that frame 1 airkick and here are the things I discovered :
-you have to do the two inputs (down and B) at the last possible time before touching the ground. I tried holding down and then pressing B at the right time but it didn't work. Maybe I'm just bad.
-if you do it too early you'll do a regular slow startup airwizkick, if you do it too late you'll do nothing or a grounded wizkick. When done from the ledge you want to time it when Ganon would normally just stand there like this
-I can do it on the ledge and out of SH Uair, but not out of SH Bair or empty SH. Maybe it has to do with Ganon doing flips (like second jump and Uair). Needs more research.
-when done on the ledge, how fast you slide back depends on how close to the ledge you do your kick, the closest the fastest. If you do it reaaaaaally close you'll miss the ledge and send Ganon fastfalling really far down offstage. This could have some use but for now it's hilarious.
-Because of the above I believe that if done fast enough you can do the whole thing while invincible, kinda like Haxdashing except with a hitbox. I say believe because I don't have teh skillz.


This should be called KICKLANDING, because it's basically wavelanding with a wizkick. Or shockwavelanding but that could be confusing lol.

 

[Purple Stuff]

So yeah I've been practicing that frame 1 airkick and here are the things I discovered :
-you have to do the two inputs (down and B) at the last possible time before touching the ground. I tried holding down and then pressing B at the right time but it didn't work. Maybe I'm just bad.

It's possible to do it while holding down on the control stick. Doing it this way might be a little better because you won't accidentally fast fall. Yet this way also cuts your momentum a bit because you are not hold forward or back. I tend to like not hold down on the control stick.

-I can do it on the ledge and out of SH Uair, but not out of SH Bair or empty SH. Maybe it has to do with Ganon doing flips (like second jump and Uair). Needs more research.

This might be the case, although I swear I remember doing it out of a bair. I remember doing it and thinking that it wouldn't be that useful due to knocking opponents too far back.

This should be called KICKLANDING, because it's basically wavelanding with a wizkick. Or shockwavelanding but that could be confusing lol.

Sounds good. I'm staying out of this whole naming thing though. I got an ego the size of Pamela Anderson's vagina, so I would name it something stupid like "Dat Purple Stuff" If I saw the opportunity to snatch it and run.

Anyway, trying to see if I can fastfall a waveland off a platform into the tech currently. It would be nice if it works.

 

[Comprehend13]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but how effective is auto canceled nair into grab? Mostly I see people follow up nair with a jab or forward tilt. Is ganon's grab too slow for this to work?

 

[| Kailex |]

His range is not good enough, but that works at times

 

[Scuba Steve]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but how effective is auto canceled nair into grab? Mostly I see people follow up nair with a jab or forward tilt. Is ganon's grab too slow for this to work?

I've brought it up on the boards somewhere before. I wouldn't make it your first option, but if you notice that your opponent is hiding in shield a lot and is waiting for the jab, you can sometimes go for nair to grab as a mix up.

 

[WINK ;)]

Yo, new game, same MU. I be getting ****ed by some Bird. Can someone tell me some quick tips to deal with the Bird... I know you can't explain MU at all but just some quick tips.

The problem is I make one slight mistake or misstep and I have an instant 60% or stock gone in a matter of seconds. Should I master the art of power shielding? Like, is that necessary for fighting the Bird because I am beginning to think it is.

EDIT: I am trying to use the NAIR more in MU's but especially the Bird's but it seems like it is getting me nowhere. I feel like it is used to space but why not just use FAIR...?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Yo, new game, same MU. I be getting ****ed by some Bird. Can someone tell me some quick tips to deal with the Bird... I know you can't explain MU at all but just some quick tips.

The problem is I make one slight mistake or misstep and I have an instant 60% or stock gone in a matter of seconds. Should I master the art of power shielding? Like, is that necessary for fighting the Bird because I am beginning to think it is.

EDIT: I am trying to use the NAIR more in MU's but especially the Bird's but it seems like it is getting me nowhere. I feel like it is used to space but why not just use FAIR...?

Powershielding is big against Falco. The reason you should use nair is because autocancelling it is balls easy and Fair is way more punishable. Whenever you get a hit, make it count because you won't get a lot in this matchup and make sure you finish your edgeguards. Work on your SDI to make the pillar combos less brutal. All in all, this matchup blows pretty hard.

 

[WINK ;)]

Powershielding is big against Falco. The reason you should use nair is because autocancelling it is balls easy and Fair is way more punishable. Whenever you get a hit, make it count because you won't get a lot in this matchup and make sure you finish your edgeguards. Work on your SDI to make the pillar combos less brutal. All in all, this matchup blows pretty hard.

Yeah, I am working the SDI but you're right.... can go **** himself.

Alright, I will get on that powershielding! :D

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah learn powershielding.
Stay on the ground, don't jump too much. If in the air use fast aerials like Nair, Bair and Uair.
Use Ftilt and Utilt a lot, Ftilt specially.
CG him into an early grave (with Uthrow and Dthrow depending on percentage).

 

[CORY]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but how effective is auto canceled nair into grab? Mostly I see people follow up nair with a jab or forward tilt. Is ganon's grab too slow for this to work?

what scuba said. if you can get them to think that it's just a 50/50, either they wait for the jab and grab you out of it or they try to grab you before you grab them, you can have some fun. that won't work for too long though, since people will eventually figure out that they can just roll or dodge or something.

i've been kind of just randomly doing followups and seeing how they react to them, then building the 'flowchart' off of that, lately. it works ok and you can make silly things work, like nair a shield, ac, then wiz kick and look like a ****ing psychic because they just rolled into it or something.

 

[GeZ]

what scuba said. if you can get them to think that it's just a 50/50, either they wait for the jab and grab you out of it or they try to grab you before you grab them, you can have some fun. that won't work for too long though, since people will eventually figure out that they can just roll or dodge or something.

i've been kind of just randomly doing followups and seeing how they react to them, then building the 'flowchart' off of that, lately. it works ok and you can make silly things work, like nair a shield, ac, then wiz kick and look like a ****ing psychic because they just rolled into it or something.

>not even a good cover for being psychic
>I know yo secret CORY

 

[CORY]

man, you guys will soon see how scrubby i am.

or maybe you saw me look flashy on stream against a sandbagging utdzac and think i'm actually good or something : p

 

[ShadowGanon]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but how effective is auto canceled nair into grab? Mostly I see people follow up nair with a jab or forward tilt. Is ganon's grab too slow for this to work?

I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!! I MUST TALK ONCE MORE ABOUT DUNKING AND STOMPING MY FOES WITH FELLOW GANON MAINS!!!

What the other guys said. Grab is too slow/has terrible range. Though, now that I think about it, you might try using up-b...

 

[Stalled]

That sounds incredibly punishable and not really worth it since it's doubtful that up b would kill anything but the combo.

 

[ShadowGanon]

That sounds incredibly punishable and not really worth it since it's doubtful that up b would kill anything but the combo.

Lol. True, but it'd be completely unexpected (and stylish). And it would at least get them off the stage (at higher percents).

Good first post, by the way.

 

[GeZ]

I was playing some friendlies against a friend I used to try to teach (he gets sick of the game too fast so there's nothing much I can do now) and he said that it's really difficult to race Ganon to the ledge. What do you guys think? When Ganons off stage he definitely has trouble but from on stage he takes the ledge really quickly.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Are you saying that he thinks that Ganon can take the ledge too quickly? I mean, all characters can wavedash backwards, so I'm not really sure what he's ******** about lol

 

[Stalled]

I played a ditto today where the other ganon aerial flame choked to the ledge, seemed alright as far as speed went and pretty reliable. The possible suicide could be a downside, but it was pretty fast getting to the edge. dash shorthop waveland is another option to get there, but everyone can do that. Any other options ganon has to get ther quickly?

And yea up b is always stylish, especially with a stage spike

 

[GeZ]

I think it's just the combination of how quick Ganon recovers after his attacks vs some other characters. Like, Ganon Ftilt vs Ike Ftilt I'd say Ganon is done and moving faster. Maybe it's just me though. Love this character in any case. The offstage game infistronk.

 

[Spralwers]

Ganon's FTilt is definitely one of the best moves in the class of mid ranged melee moves.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

2 Things- How do often do you guys edge-cancel Wiz Kick and what sort of situations do you use it in? I feel like its a pretty interesting move that I don't get enough mileage out of and I'm working to use it to enhance my platform movement. You guys have any suggestions for ways to use the ECAWK?

Secondly, how do you practice powershielding? Is there a way to grind it out with the CPU or do I just need to sit down with a friend and have him throw projectiles at me?

 

[ShadowGanon]

2 Things- How do often do you guys edge-cancel Wiz Kick and what sort of situations do you use it in? I feel like its a pretty interesting move that I don't get enough mileage out of and I'm working to use it to enhance my platform movement. You guys have any suggestions for ways to use the ECAWK?

Here, have a nice big article I typed up a while ago.

Edge-canceled Aerial Wiz Kicks (EcAWK for short)
Pretty much just aerial wiz kick onto a ledge and, if you're close enough, you'll slide off the ledge and cancel all the lag you would have experienced from landing on the ground. From what I've found, there are several ways you can apply this.
(1) You can combo with it if your opponent is standing on or very close to a ledge. It'll pop them up with the landing hitbox for you to smack in the face with just about any aerial (this is devastating if the person is popped out over the edge of the stage as it sets up for a f-air close to the blast zone on some stages). This, however, is a bit situational.
(2) You can edge guard with it. If your opponent isn't that good at sweet spotting ledges and doesn't have a recovery that sticks through the ledge too much, you can aerial wiz kick into the ledge and spike him. However, this is even more situational than the last application.
(3) You can use the EcAWK much like you would a waveland on/off a platform. Except, when you do it this way, you can do it from far above the platform/edge and have a spiking hitbox on your leg (this technique would be way better if he actually had a hit box on his foot). I've tested it on every platform on competitive stages and have found that you can put out any aerial before you hit the ground after edge-canceling it (the exception being d-air from Yoshi's Story lower platforms).
(4) STYLE. You can repeatedly edge cancel aerial wiz kicks on the same ledge by simply jumping backward and wiz kicking into the same ledge again. In fact, on Yoshi's Story, you can EcAWK into every platform edge without touching the ground normally (I spent a good part of an hour testing these things yesterday). On Yoshi's Story, PS2, PS1, Lylat Cruise, FoD, WarioWare, and a few other stages you can go from ledge to ledge on the same platform over and over.

Still trying to come up with a catchy name. EcAWK just won't do... Maybe "Edge Kicking"?

Secondly, how do you practice powershielding? Is there a way to grind it out with the CPU or do I just need to sit down with a friend and have him throw projectiles at me?

No, there isn't a way to grind with CPU. You have to have your buddy spam projectiles at you for hour upon end.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

i learned power shielding pretty well in melee by having a lv 9 falco play against me on fd. basically, i'd run away to each side and try to get as many power shields in a row before falco reached me. you could probably do the same thing in pm, or something similar. the laser still comes at the same speed, even if the falco isn't jumping so you still will learn the timing. but it's preferable to have a friend shoot at you instead.

 

[Spralwers]

cpu falco at mid-far range has a tendency to spam lasers, esp lv 9 falco. thats actually how I developed the foundation for my PS game. you should actually make sure you should practice consistently and at varying lengths too, so you can get the hang of doing it on reaction and being familiar with how close a projectile needs to be to your char to PS it

 

[Kolbin]

Been off the forums for a bit, but I just moved to arguably the most active region and definitely need to improve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t-JKvOt4wM&list=UUuBhMqosgW-ECZjJZ9pv0Dg
Here's my set against Oracle. Please be as brutal in the critique as you want. I was pretty nervous in this set, and it shows.

Edit: Whoops wrong Forum Post. That's what I get for keeping too many tabs open. I'll post in the video thread.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yo wtf i got a random shout out in that vid

 

[CORY]

gotta work on math hw, so i can't expand too much:

grats on coming into the dfw scene!

use less overb in neutral, try to only use it when you've gotten the momentum, to keep them off tilt.

use more uair and bair, especially rar'd to help mix up your approaches.

learn to ledge jump consistently (or whatever that's called where you're hanging, drop then jump and land on stage just standing) and then to waveland from the ledge, to help mixup your edge game.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Good news: SMU's having a smash tournament.
Bad news: It's on LCD TV's (working on bringing our own CRT's).
Bad for me news: It's single elimination and some of the other Dallas players will be there. Don't know anybody's tag though, just their real names.

 

[CORY]

well, at least it's free to enter.

i don't remember seeing who all posted in that event other than ruin, and i can't find the event anymore to let you know who's who (that i would recognize).

 

[CORY]

watching vex's stuff from summer jam, it looks like the jab-dacus tech is really only useful on floaties (he mostly got mileage out of it against zelda) and seems mostly to work only within a specific range, but holy ****! within that range, it just does so much work! like, jab-dacus against zelda around 90 was killing on ps1, which is disgusting.

but, the tech that really impressed me was waveland from ledge, turn around shortest hop flame choke. like, holy crap, he has that timing down so slick and then he's good about mixing up into ftilt or shield instead. that's totally something to work on next time i play : O

 

[| Kailex |]

The fact that I do that before even see vex's ganon makes me feel bad