Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[teluoborg]

My hypothesis is that since the ground detection bone is around Ganon's knees doing flips and stuff puts that point far above where it is during an idle jump. Since the point is higher relatively to Ganon's vertical position you get extra time before landing.

And then you down B. Wizkick puts your legs under you, so suddenly your knees are touching the ground and the game reacts by making you land on the first frame of wizkick.

And if you ask me that's probably why Ganon's wavelands are so good compared to his wavedash : since you can be very close to the ground before airdodging you can do it completely horizontally and it'll still waveland instead of airdodging because the airdodge animation puts Ganon in a vertical stance.

Don't know if I'm being clear enough, but TL;DR : these techs work because a move (wizkick/airdodge) change your previous stance make you grounded on their first frame when you were airborne on the previous.

 

[Purple Stuff]

Oh dam, yea I can see that totally being plausible. Although this makes me wonder why waveland is easier to land than down-b under this theory. Also, I was under the assumption that the SCD bone that detects landing isn't defined. I thought it could be anything so long as it was closest to the ground. Interesting nonetheless.

 

[teluoborg]

It's probably undefined as you say, but it's still placed at the lowest point of Ganon's hurtbox. And at many points during his jumps he either curls or flips. Like, his forward double jump curls him up in a ball, and his backwards first jump or Uair put him upside-down for a short time, even laying him horizontally at some point.

As to why it's easier to waveland than kickland I'd say it's because the airdodge lowers the landing detection point more than the wizkick, making the window to perform the tech bigger.

Those are just conjectures tho, I have no proof whatsoever so take it with a grain of

 

[RelaxAlax]

Like I said, this will probably be clearer when we have Debug mode. I had the same hunch as teluoborg did

My hypothesis is that since the ground detection bone is around Ganon's knees doing flips and stuff puts that point far above where it is during an idle jump. Since the point is higher relatively to Ganon's vertical position you get extra time before landing.

And then you down B. Wizkick puts your legs under you, so suddenly your knees are touching the ground and the game reacts by making you land on the first frame of wizkick.

I just couldn't put it into words. Get a PMBR member up in hear!

I'd also like to point out that the easiest circumstance to use this is being on a platform (could shield drop) and falling under the platform. That animation where Ganondorf turns and falls allows you to Reverse Down+B and you'll do the quick quake. The timing is WHEN YOU HIT THE GROUND, you'll be holding down already so you merely need to tilt it in the opposite direction and press B AS YOU HIT THE GROUND. This is a great mixup as nobody expects it.

It's a wonky tech for sure, but I've found uses for it (Against CPUS, but hear me out). At high enough percents, you can do this quake, knockup Fox and then forward tilt and send him offstage. You hardly want to ever be ABOVE someone, but I think it could have uses.

As long as this doesn't change in 3.5, I think we should put time into this.

So far, you can do it
-onto platforms (needs practice, but one of the easier and most applicable for combo starters)
-falling off of platforms (Easiest)
-on ledges (really hard)
-and even on the ground after a jump (I need a tutorial on this)

 

[ShadowGanon]

Did anyone else know that Ganon can b-air twice out of a short hop (SH -> b-air -> second jump -> b-air) or am I the only one that didn't know?

 

[Yanoss1313]

Did anyone else know that Ganon can b-air twice out of a short hop (SH -> b-air -> second jump -> b-air) or am I the only one that didn't know?

Probably

 

[HiroProtagonist]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before. When Ganon does a grounded b-reversal side-b, does it look like he moves across the stage slightly faster and ends up a bit further away from the starting point? It looks that way to me.

I dont think anyone every really acknowledged this because you posted it in the middle of someone else's discovery, but I think you're right. I wonder if the timing is such that you could position yourself to cover all tech options on reaction by doing a normal flame choke to cover a tech in one direction and a b-reversed one to cover tech in place and tech away.

 

[Fortune]

That's a really good idea. I'm glad SOMEONE saw this.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I dont think anyone every really acknowledged this because you posted it in the middle of someone else's discovery, but I think you're right. I wonder if the timing is such that you could position yourself to cover all tech options on reaction by doing a normal flame choke to cover a tech in one direction and a b-reversed one to cover tech in place and tech away.

Ya know, I think I pointed that out once like... Last February or something, but no one really listened.

 

[CORY]

I dont think anyone every really acknowledged this because you posted it in the middle of someone else's discovery, but I think you're right. I wonder if the timing is such that you could position yourself to cover all tech options on reaction by doing a normal flame choke to cover a tech in one direction and a b-reversed one to cover tech in place and tech away.

That's a really good idea. I'm glad SOMEONE saw this.

i don't remember who pointed it out recently, but i've been trying to use it more often. i don't know if it covers all tech options, but if you've been setting people up to respect ganon's normal grounded sideb spacing, you can catch them off guard with the breversed one and get some mileage out of it.

 

[teluoborg]

Speaking of grounded side B you know the hitbox starts on Ganon's hand behind him right ?

So far I've only noticed it on Bowser because he's fat, but if you're near a ledge you can literally cover all of Bowser's tech options with one good dash back > side B towards him because if he tries to tech roll behind you you'll grab him. That's hilarious to pull off and it makes Bowser players mad.

 

[CORY]

redoing some grounded flamechoke data collection. looks like several release points were changed. either that, or some platform heights were increased, which i doubt.

and grounded flamechoke on rob looks goofy af because you hold him almost by his base (legs). consequently, he basically lands on every platform ever.

 

[Bazkip]

redoing some grounded flamechoke data collection. looks like several release points were changed. either that, or some platform heights were increased, which i doubt.

and grounded flamechoke on rob looks goofy af because you hold him almost by his base (legs). consequently, he basically lands on every platform ever.

-A bug that caused all throws to release higher than they were supposed to was fixed

Probably that.

 

[CORY]

ah, ok, totally didn't see that in the changelog. thanks for the catch!

 

[Electric Tuba]

They also changed landing detection iirc, so that could also be a factor.

 

[| Kailex |]

Do any of you consistently waveland whn playing? As fun as it is, I need to do it less because it became a bit predictable.

 

[Stalled]

There're a bunch of ways to use wavelands, mix up the direction you go in and how you space them. If you can do wavelands on the stage they're a decent approach, you can also jump into your opponent and waveland past if you think they're going to shield, or do the same thing to dodge a hitbox, you can use the invincibility of your airdodge to some degree as well.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Wavelands are awesome and I use them all the time. Just make sure you consider them as any other attack/movement option, using it for the sake of using it will get you punished. Try and restrict it to when you can use the burst of speed to catch someone with a hit/grab.

 

[Purple Stuff]

So for a while now I've had my suspicion that you can jab twice faster when doing a crouching jab in comparison to a standing jab.

I've finally sat down to try and actually test this and I think this is the case. What I did was turn on debug mode, slowed down speed in training mode and watched the hit stun of the CPU. When jabbing twice while standing, hit stun wears off before the next jab hits. When jabbing twice while crouching, it looks like hit stun is still in effect when the second jab hits. Since I'm pretty much eyeballing it, it could be false and I'm just flubbing the inputs while stand jabbing. But I'm leaning towards faster consecutive crouching jabs being the case. I would try frame advance in debug mode to accurately test this, but I can't get it to read my inputs right.

Edit: I'm dumb. Finally realized I could just count the frames in frame advance to get perfect inputs and accurate test results.

Here is what I found:

Counting from the frame when jab hitbox disappears, you can jab a second time on the 16th frame when doing a standing jab.

Counting from the frame when jab hitbox disappears, you can jab a second time on the 13th frame when doing a crouching jab.

I thought the act of crouching was somehow making it so that you could act faster out of jab. Turns out this isn't the case.

Counting from the frame when jab hitbox disappears, you can being any input on the 13th frame except standing jab for some reason. I'm guessing the 13th frame I'm referencing is the first IASA frame of jab.

So there you have it. You can jab a second time 3 frames faster if its a crouching jab in comparison to a standing jab. Is it practical? Don't know. Probably not. Off a jab hit confirm, those 3 frames do open up the option to hit someone with a second jab before hit stun wears off for a smooth 14% damage and possibly a dash attack follow up or something for even more damage. So long as you are close enough and with the help of some bad DI at early percents.

I'm not really sure, but I'm thinking there is a jab timing that lets you beat out a tech attempt during a ground side B confirm. This is nice if it's true as side b puts the opponent directly on top of you increasing the chance of a successful double jab due to proximity of opponent. Anyone know if this is possible?

 

[CORY]

that's actually pretty interesting to know... next time i do lab stuff i'll try to remember to check on that.

WHOA! dude, you're in denton? do you make any of the tloc things? and are you going to be at aftershock?

 

[Purple Stuff]

No, I've never made it out there unfortunately. Always wanted to go but no car makes it difficult and most friends aren't really into smash so...

That pretty much rules out aftershock. I don't know, maybe I can get my roommate to go. The problem isn't talking him into it, seeing as how he likes smash too. The issue is just kicking him out of bed.

 

[CORY]

No, I've never made it out there unfortunately. Always wanted to go but no car makes it difficult and most friends aren't really into smash so...

That pretty much rules out aftershock. I don't know, maybe I can get my roommate to go. The problem isn't talking him into it, seeing as how he likes smash too. The issue is just kicking him out of bed.

You in the dfw pm group? There's a unt smash club, so you might be able to get a ride to events from people around there.

 

[Purple Stuff]

I'm not in either of those, didn't even know they existed. Thanks for the head up, I'll look into it.

Also, I checked. A Grounded Side B tech attempt cannot be stuffed. Jab does not come out fast enough. Nor does the cape. bummer.

 

[PD | Lewd]

Speaking of runoffs, you can runoff Dair and still be able to recover on stage even if people are holding the ledge. I'm trying to implement the Utaunt cancel runoff Dair for the laughing stomp.

Please, teach me oh wise one.

 

[SD Grandmaster Hero]

Yooo I had no idea threads for Ganon existed!

Can I start off in here by getting some critique on my Ganon? It ain't on YouTube yet, sorry bout that. http://www.twitch.tv/lafayettesmash/b/627554008?t=26m41s
I realize I approached too much and went for too many unsafe/predictable Wizard Foots/Flame Chokes.

 

[Cpt.]

Did anyone else know that Ganon can b-air twice out of a short hop (SH -> b-air -> second jump -> b-air) or am I the only one that didn't know?

Really? That's pretty crazy actually.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Really? That's pretty crazy actually.

Been known since Maylay, IIRC

 

[Cpt.]

Been known since Maylay, IIRC

Man, I need to step up my Ganon knowledge. Been playing too much Snake and Samus lately I guess.

 

[CORY]

ok, i haven't had time to clean this up, so i'll just put it in here rather than make a new thread for it.

kirby isn't on the list because i'm dumb, apparently. i know for sure you can guarantee a grab on him.

WHAT NEEDS CLEANING UP
this is just raw frame data. if the opponent doesn't move away from you, all of these things are technically possible. however, the floatier characters can, in theory, move away from you before you can hit them, which i haven't tested out in frame advance yet.

i know the way i indicated the techable frame is dumb, but you can just subtract one from that number and that's the actual number of airborne frames for each character. everything assumes frame perfection (so, aerials assume frame perfect jump and first actionable frame aerial).

Possible Followups: (the number in parenthesis is how much frame advantage you have from aerial Flame Choke on that character. The character in question is able to tech on the frame indicated, so you can only attack them the frame previous to it).

None possible: Fox (-2), Falco (+2), Wolf (+2)


Only Jab: Captain Falcon (+5), Meta Knight (+5), Wario (+5), Zero Suit Samus (+5)


Plus Utilt (bad DI): Diddy Kong (+6), Lucario (+6), Lucas (+6), Roy (+6), Sheik (+6), Ganon (+7), Toon Link (+7)


Plus Grab and Dash Attack: Bowser (+8), Squirtle (+8), Ike (+9), Pikachu (+9), Link (+9), Snake (+9)


Plus Ftilt: Charizard (+10), Donkey Kong (+10), Game 'n Watch (+10), Olimar (+10), Sonic (+10), Yoshi (+10)


Plus Dtilt and Nair: Pit (+11)


Plus Dash Grab and Uair (test height of Uair): Ice Climbers (+12), Mario (+12), Marth (+12), Ness (+12), Dedede (+13), Ivysaur (+13), Luigi (+14), ROB (+14), Peach (+15), Mewtwo (+16)


Plus Down B: Zelda (+19), Jigglypuff (+22)


NOTE: Anything longer than +14 allows the opponent to jump out, as aerial Flame choke only has 14 frames of hitstun. This doesn't necessarily preclude the potential followups, but it does allow potential for counterplay.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Awesome info!

Did you do any testing on AFC->grounded FC? I know for a fact it works on Jigglypuff, at least on no and/or specific DI.

Edit: Oh, and Samus isn't on the list.

 

[CORY]

Damn, I'm bad... No, but you can get a general idea just using the raw startup. You'd probably need to wavebounce the grounded side b to get there fast enough, but I think they would also need to di-ing into you, or not at all, due to travel time.

 

[Bazkip]

Can we start complaining about grab again in the hopes that maybe they'll give it a lower reach

PMDT pls

 

[Purple Stuff]

Can we start complaining about grab again in the hopes that maybe they'll give it a lower reach

PMDT pls

http://www.twitch.tv/projecttoronto/b/628574363?t=13m31s

Seriously. Just watched ally versus kage at McSm4shter after all this Ike business, and that grab final stock on game 3 pretty much knocked him out of the tournament. That grab should of been his, but Ike's profile was too low to the ground after he landed back on stage and the grab just sailed over. The punish followed up, momentum shifted, and that's all it took. 7% to death. That's that o'l doo-doo.

Dam I wish kage played more PM. It was a good set.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

Can we start complaining about grab again in the hopes that maybe they'll give it a lower reach

PMDT pls

I agree Ganons grab needs to be nerfed

 

[Bazkip]

http://www.twitch.tv/projecttoronto/b/628574363?t=13m31s
Seriously. Just watched ally versus kage at McSm4shter after all this Ike business, and that grab final stock on game 3 pretty much knocked him out of the tournament. That grab should of been his, but Ike's profile was too low to the ground after he landed back on stage and the grab just sailed over. The punish followed up, momentum shifted, and that's all it took. 7% to death. That's that o'l doo-doo.

Dam I wish kage played more PM. It was a good set.

Pretty much this exact same thing happened to Kage again at LAN ETS

Just whyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

Pretty much this exact same thing happened to Kage again at LAN ETS

Just whyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Is he going to sandstorm? We can hope good things for him in the future!

 

[Bazkip]

Is he going to sandstorm? We can hope good things for him in the future!

Isn't that in Arizona? That's pretty far for him to go.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

Isn't that in Arizona? That's pretty far for him to go.

I must have been thinking of a different tournament, I thought there was a big PM event coming up that was bringing in Ally and Kage

 

[Taytertot]

Im very uncertain about whether this would actually have an impact on ganons game but i could see there being situational uses for it. If you drop from a platform and float immediately you will land on the same platform after the float starts falling down. During this time you have just enough time for the first kick of nair to come out (i dont believe anything else has enough time to hit before ganon lands though i could be wrong).

I figured this could be used for a mixup in weird situations and I also assumed that someone better then me would be able to find better uses for this, so I figured id make a note of it. Maybe using it to be able to float into position to ledge cancel the first hit of nair if the situation is right.

 

[Themeatgrinder]

Seriously. Just watched ally versus kage at McSm4shter after all this Ike business, and that grab final stock on game 3 pretty much knocked him out of the tournament. That grab should of been his, but Ike's profile was too low to the ground after he landed back on stage and the grab just sailed over. The punish followed up, momentum shifted, and that's all it took. 7% to death. That's that o'l doo-doo.

Dam I wish kage played more PM. It was a good set.

Oh I remember watching McSmashter 4, that's why I main Ganon here now hehe