Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[Zigludo]

@ CORY That write-up on AFC frame advantage is *amazing*, thank you! Knowing that I can get a regrab on half the cast is going to drastically improve my low% punish game, all I ever did before was jab!

 

[Zigludo]

Alright, topic of the day: edgeguarding tethers. None of my on-stage Melee tricks work (dair through stage, tipman) and whenever I go offstage to dunk or bair, they just airdodge through me. Any ideas?

 

[| Kailex |]

Hold the damn ledge :-)
Hit them with an aerial after theyre forced to get up.
But dont be obvious with grabbing the ledge, they might decide to hit you and ending your stock with a stage spike, or deciding to recover in a different way.

 

[DMG]

Grab the edge and threaten drop off Dair, Uair tipman, Bair, etc. That mixup, along with holding the edge, covers most tether chars.

 

[CORY]

Yeah, the forced jump and endlag is stupidly long. You can react to their reel in with a straight up tourney winner ledge jump, then land and grab most of them, even.

 

[Stalled]

tipmanning the forced ledge hop is too gud.

 

[Bazkip]

Ledgedash > turnaround utilt for extra style.

Keep in mind though that they can hold backwards and regrab the ledge off the tether hop.
But 99% of people are bad and won't do that, so you can basically do whatever the hell you want.

 

[CORY]

I think if they do that you can still cover all the options with ledge drop- DJ bair , anyway. It's kinda silly.

 

[Zigludo]

I think if they do that you can still cover all the options with ledge drop- DJ bair , anyway. It's kinda silly.

ahh, see, this is what was missing - I forgot that PM Ganon can get onto the stage with ledgehop aerials. You could also uair them out I reckon?

 

[CORY]

oh yeah you can.

the timing's slightly different (because of how ganon throws his body up and over his head during it), but not too hard to grind out.

personally, i can do ledge drop-dj bairs almost perfectly (with full invincibility about... 80% of the time?). but uairs... man, i can get like, 90% on the right side of the stage, but then i drop to, like... 30% on the left side. no idea why, it's super frustrating.

 

[RelaxAlax]

So like a few things.

The b-reversed side b is much faster. I don't have frame data but it feels so much faster and is THE one you need to do in quick matchups against Falcon or Spacies. Though you shouldn't be doing side b in those matchups, just something to consider practising. It'll surprise you and your opponent.

Also, i've begun dashing, crouching, and dashing out of crouch. Idk if this is fast either but it feels like it . Between mixing these with moonwalks, empty double jumps, wavelands and DACUS' its a cool mix up tool compared to just running at opponents.

ALSO,

you can really easily up taunt (with d pad) when running near a ledge and cancel it if you go into teetering animation. In practise i managed to get a dair on a platform, do my laugh, and get another dair lol

Anyways #AlaxTips are done for today. You probably knew these things but i never see people do these in their gameplay. Maybe it's bc our best Ganons come from Melee and are stingy to change.

 

[CORY]

breversed sideb, as in "sideb to the left, then quickly tap the stick to the right" and do the sideb to the right?

that shouldn't be any faster, what it does is do your lungeback at the start of the move towards the right, then you breverse it and finish the move to the right, giving you additional distance, about 1 ganon's worth. it's great for throwing off people who try to space at just outside normal sideb range, since the extra distance isn't reactable.

and dash-crouch-dash-crouch: wouldn't that be a more complicated/worse version of just normal fox trotting?

 

[Scuba Steve]

I only really use b-reversed flame chokes when I flub the input and go the wrong way, so I'll just tap the other way to correct myself lol. 75% of the times I even try to use the grounded version of that move is to get that sick nasty pull back

 

[CORY]

yeah, breverse is really just there to punish people who think they've got your spacing down and then suddenly "lol, nope. got your face!"

 

[Taytertot]

what id really like to see is some Breversed and wavebounced float stuff. i definitely feel like there could be some cool mixups/mindgames that arent being used despite float being short and a bit slow.

Also idk if this works but since you have to press b twice in the air for the reflect would it be possible to wavebounce the float and then wavebounce the reflect (technically speaking)?

 

[Zigludo]

what id really like to see is some Breversed and wavebounced float stuff. i definitely feel like there could be some cool mixups/mindgames that arent being used despite float being short and a bit slow.

Also idk if this works but since you have to press b twice in the air for the reflect would it be possible to wavebounce the float and then wavebounce the reflect (technically speaking)?

A few minutes of testing says: "Nope".

 

[Scuba Steve]

wavebounced and b-reversed float doesn't really move you super fast unless you do a perfect waveland -> moonwalk before jumping to build up momentum. Ganon's too slow to really do anything cool with them unless you're spending like 5 seconds to set them up lol

 

[Taytertot]

oh i dont mean going super fast or doing any weird physics breaks exactly. I more mean that i imagine it may make things like edgeguards easier or baits or help with microspacings, etc. I just never see it used and i feel like those extra mixups could go a long way. I know that float has helped a lot with catching people offguard but soon enough everyone will get to the point where they know how to counter ganon's float so having the extra mixup of which way we decide to face and which direction we decide to have our momentum going in will be useful. So i guess im more wondering if people have found good ways to add that to their gameplay that may help in certain MUs or in certain situations.

unfortunate that the float and reflect cant both be wavebounced in the air though

 

[Z4K]

Critique my Dorf plox.
I can see I was dropping edgeguards like a mofo that match, and i always go into "double jump b-air mode" when im uncomfortable. its one of my worst ganon habits that carried over from melee, honestly i was missing everything especially those first 3 stocks... .
i'll make it a point to learn dacus and the G-vortex (i refuse to call it the arty vortex)
dont watch the rest of the video where i perform the worst lucario gameplay EVER

What is this G-Vortex you speak of? DACUS is nasty as ****. Sometimes you get a free DACUS off a ledge-tech-rolled BAir (you finish the DACUS as they roll in the wrong direction on the playform) and also sometimes if you can place well after a jab or FTilt, depending on the %. 41% off both kicks ain't nothing to **** with, and kills at moderate percentages on small stages.


Also, can someone explain to me why I'm having a **** time moonwalking with Ganondorf? T_T;

 

[Scuba Steve]

What is this G-Vortex you speak of? DACUS is nasty as ****. Sometimes you get a free DACUS off a ledge-tech-rolled BAir (you finish the DACUS as they roll in the wrong direction on the playform) and also sometimes if you can place well after a jab or FTilt, depending on the %. 41% off both kicks ain't nothing to **** with, and kills at moderate percentages on small stages.


Also, can someone explain to me why I'm having a **** time moonwalking with Ganondorf? T_T;

Ganondorf's moonwalks don't really go anywhere unless you do a perfect waveland leading into it. So basically if you wanna do a moonwalk to the left, you have to do a perfect waveland to the left, then moonwalk.

Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zexwVu-kh-I

 

[Bazkip]

I kinda went off an on rant in the tier list thread
The context for the beginning is that some guy was complaining about Ganon having big hitboxes

Yeah Ganon's a big, strong mother****er, having giant meaty hitboxes fits. He'd be pretty *** if he didn't have good hitboxes. Dude's got so many weaknesses, let the man have a few positives.

I do agree that *** grab on dash grab is silly and should probably be removed, but it's a dash grab it's not like it gets much use anyways.

But speaking of grabs, that's one area where he doesn't have that reach (standing grab).
I cannot describe how incredibly frustrating it is to miss a grab because someone directly in front of you did something that moves them slightly forwards. Or to whiff when someone is directly at your feet but in an animation where they're somewhat lowered. I'm not talking about Jigglypuff/Kirby/Snake/Sheik kinda of crouching, it can be someone simply landing in front of you. Ganon cannot shieldgrab Mario's dash attach when every other character in the game can, and I imagine there's probably a few other attacks that are like that. I don't see people getting away with unsafe things directly in front of one character and no one else is remotely acceptable from a design standpoint.

Sure there's upB OOS, but since that's slower and way more punishable, it's not something that can be used very often.

Spoiler: Here's some examples

And to show that it's not just me being scrubby, here's it happening to Kage

I often hear the reason for it being so bad is due to dthrow being too godly. This may be true, but I'd like to say two things in answer to that.

The first is that there's plenty of character out there who get so much mileage from their throws and who don't struggle to get the grab in the first place. Either through having a good grab range and/or good mobility and/or the ability to pressure/corner their opponent to open them up for the grab.

And second, if the dthrow is actually just too good, nerf it. I'm not going to deny that it's absurd, it chaingrabs a large portion of the cast, some to ludicrous percents, and allows to free follow up on pretty much everyone. I'd much rather trade how ridiculous dthrow is for the ability to actually get the grab.

I'm not asking for a great grab range, heck make it below average since even a nerfed dthrow will probably still be good, as long as it's not verging on being near useless I'd be happy.

 

[Nevermind]

So, assuming I'm adding everything up correctly, it seems that auto-cancelling down-air is two frames faster than l-cancelling it. If the information in the frame data thread is correct, Ganon spends 5 frames in jumpsquat, 33 frames in a non-ff short hop, and 5 frames in the auto-cancel animation. All that adds up to 43 frames. Compare this to l-cancelling: 5 frames in jumpsquat, 25 frames in a ff'd short hop, and 15 frames in the l-cancel animation = 45 frames. Not much, but slightly quicker follow-ups never hurt. I think the only potential downside might be going over the head of small, crouching characters, but I haven't tested that yet. (Edit: You can still hit a crouching Jiggs, G&W, Kirby, etc., but only with the bottom portion of the lowest hitbox bubble. That means you'll have to be fairly close to directly above them.)

Also, while not particularly useful, it's possible to up-air or back-air and get out a frame or two (respectively) of neutral-air in a single, non-ff short hop. A really niche mixup option, I guess.

 

[Taytertot]

So, assuming I'm adding everything up correctly, it seems that auto-cancelling down-air is two frames faster than l-cancelling it. If the information in the frame data thread is correct, Ganon spends 5 frames in jumpsquat, 33 frames in a non-ff short hop, and 5 frames in the auto-cancel animation. All that adds up to 43 frames. Compare this to l-cancelling: 5 frames in jumpsquat, 25 frames in a ff'd short hop, and 15 frames in the l-cancel animation = 45 frames. Not much, but slightly quicker follow-ups never hurt. I think the only potential downside might be going over the head of small, crouching characters, but I haven't tested that yet. (Edit: You can still hit a crouching Jiggs, G&W, Kirby, etc., but only with the bottom portion of the lowest hitbox bubble. That means you'll have to be fairly close to directly above them.)

Also, while not particularly useful, it's possible to up-air or back-air and get out a frame or two (respectively) of neutral-air in a single, non-ff short hop. A really niche mixup option, I guess.

thats interesting, i guess the only reason to not autocancel dair would be either if one's aim is off or if youre trying to hit someone below a platform with it.

 

[Idostuff]

has anyone been able to work wavelanding after uair and bair into their combo game? I have been practicing getting the timing down and can do it consistently now, but since you have to do the aerial right after jumping, you don't have flexability on when you get to hit the opponent. Something i have found that is good with the bair, is spacing it on peoples shield, then wavelanding away to get out of range of their grab or w.e. This only works on tall chars.

 

[Scuba Steve]

do wavelanded aerials after dthrow, usually just doing aerials as early as possible is ideal in dthrow setups anyways

 

[CORY]

that's pretty much the ideal use for bair-wl. you can also use it in baits, with some conditioning, but your spacing needs to be really on point for that to work (not to mention, you can't be predictable with it, since you'll likely be flying into them with the wl).

what scuba said for uair-wl. i haven't worked it into my game yet, since the timing is a lot stricter and i've not had much free time to grind tech skill, much less work it into my game.

 

[SunnieHD]

I know this isn't really meta-game per say, but can Gannon still stickywalk in PM? And what about some of his other more stylish techs, you know, the bizzarro flame type ones

 

[GoldenMasterSword]

I don't believe he can. No one can due to the way PM handles run speeds at certain control stick angles. Ganondorf does not slow to a crawl nearly as long in PM as he does in Melee.

 

[SunnieHD]

I don't believe he can. No one can due to the way PM handles run speeds at certain control stick angles. Ganondorf does not slow to a crawl nearly as long in PM as he does in Melee.

dang, so are there any cool mind games I can play as Ganon now?

 

[Taytertot]

dang, so are there any cool mind games I can play as Ganon now?

sure there are. i mean you still have all the flashy bizzarro flame WL stuff like WL ftilt, WL jab etc.
deciding when and where to use float can be a good mindgame especially since many ganon players dont seem to incorporate it much. like floating close to the ground after a SH or using float before or after double jump can screw with peoples timing.
sideB has a few mindgame uses. personally i like using grounded sideB SH back quick aerial sideB if ive got them near a ledge or on a platform since it can cover many options depending on positioning.

there are plenty more but youll have to kinda figure them out since its kinda player dependent.

that's pretty much the ideal use for bair-wl. you can also use it in baits, with some conditioning, but your spacing needs to be really on point for that to work (not to mention, you can't be predictable with it, since you'll likely be flying into them with the wl).

what scuba said for uair-wl. i haven't worked it into my game yet, since the timing is a lot stricter and i've not had much free time to grind tech skill, much less work it into my game.

id really like to get that into my game as well. i usually go into training and reduce the speed to 1/4 so i can get the timing and muscle memory down more easily and then speed the game back up and practice so that im used to doing it X4 faster.

out of curiosity it seems as though if i dair at the very beginning of a SH then itll autocancel. this is probably a well known thing already and im just oblivious but does it work? it seems to work when ive got the game slowed down and do the inputs fast, but im pretty inconsistent with it at normal speed.

 

[Bazkip]

Noticed this on Twitter

@bidoooof pic.twitter.com/VJkULJbgUO

— SOJ (@SOJ__Online) April 30, 2015

rip buttjab

 

[Idostuff]

yea it took me a while to get WL bair/uair down. I can't do it w. the c stick, and i have to be thinking about doing it before i do.

 

[Idostuff]

an option i use a lot that i don't see other Ganon's do is Up b into ppl after they tech on a platform. This is something that i picked up from watching Wario players use bite in this situation. After someone gets put into a tech situation on a platform, they usually get up, then shield right away expecting to be hit by an attack from underneath. So just Up b command grab them to get a free 18% plus good positional advantage, and maybe even a kill at high %s. This is good when used as a mixup with Going for an upsmash to hit ppl above you on platforms.

 

[Bazkip]

an option i use a lot that i don't see other Ganon's do is Up b into ppl after they tech on a platform. This is something that i picked up from watching Wario players use bite in this situation. After someone gets put into a tech situation on a platform, they usually get up, then shield right away expecting to be hit by an attack from underneath. So just Up b command grab them to get a free 18% plus good positional advantage, and maybe even a kill at high %s. This is good when used as a mixup with Going for an upsmash to hit ppl above you on platforms.

That's actually something that Loki does in Melee that I picked up from him. It's nice cause it's super easy to do but imo it's not that great of a choice except at high percents while facing towards the ledge to get them offstage. There's so much endlag on it that you don't get much off it otherwise. Flame choke or waveland grab will get you waaaaayy more at low/mid percents.

 

[CORY]

@ Frost | Odds something that i forgot about in my last post of the tier list thread is to keep in mind b reversing grounded side b. you get a good boost in distance from it (you do your lunge backwards in the direction you want to go in the end. i.e. you want to sideb to the right. sideb left, then flick right for the b reverse. you'll lunge to the right THEN you'll do the grab to the right) which helps with conditioning people to respect that distance, then punishing them when they relinquish too much stage control and want to try and react to the sideb, but suddenly can't because of the added distance.

 

[Frost | Odds]

That's sweet, but isn't grounded side b kind of a scrubby option?

 

[CORY]

it's faster than aerial side b (because no jump startup) and has much longer range. it's more useful for most tech chase situations, imo.

aerial gives better followups (even if you can only tech chase, like against spacies, i think it's still a longer time to do the chase...) but sometimes the range just isn't enough to get what you want out of it.

it's especially useful if you can get their tech habits near a ledge down, since that's where the added range helps with messing up their reactions the most.

also this: http://smashboards.com/threads/ganon-strategies-and-gameplay-discussion.347166/page-12#post-18659833

raw data on aerial sideb followups. i'm missing samus and kirby, but i know they both fall slow enough to get grabs off. samus might be too floaty to just grab, so you might need a dash grab for her, but i haven't gone back and done the frame testing to see which moves you can di to get away from.

i'm also going to work on a list of characters who get grounded flame choked onto platforms above you, rather than the ground. the best example i can think of is lucas on ps2. he'll land on the platform if you catch him with grounded flame choke, letting you set up a much more limited options tech chase on him from there. or, even sicker, ness and lucas on the middle platform of warioware will always end up on the top platform, so you can literally just charge usmash and laugh at them.

 

[Scuba Steve]

grounded side b ain't bad. It gives you that sick nasty lean back just like Falcon's raptor boost. However, it doesn't have as good of/guaranteed followups as aerial side b

 

[MerzA]

Im very uncertain about whether this would actually have an impact on ganons game but i could see there being situational uses for it. If you drop from a platform and float immediately you will land on the same platform after the float starts falling down. During this time you have just enough time for the first kick of nair to come out (i dont believe anything else has enough time to hit before ganon lands though i could be wrong).

I figured this could be used for a mixup in weird situations and I also assumed that someone better then me would be able to find better uses for this, so I figured id make a note of it. Maybe using it to be able to float into position to ledge cancel the first hit of nair if the situation is right.

This actually could be useful out of shield drop, except shield drop float is ****ing hard

 

[MerzA]

it's faster than aerial side b (because no jump startup) and has much longer range. it's more useful for most tech chase situations, imo.

aerial gives better followups (even if you can only tech chase, like against spacies, i think it's still a longer time to do the chase...) but sometimes the range just isn't enough to get what you want out of it.

it's especially useful if you can get their tech habits near a ledge down, since that's where the added range helps with messing up their reactions the most.

also this: http://smashboards.com/threads/ganon-strategies-and-gameplay-discussion.347166/page-12#post-18659833

raw data on aerial sideb followups. i'm missing samus and kirby, but i know they both fall slow enough to get grabs off. samus might be too floaty to just grab, so you might need a dash grab for her, but i haven't gone back and done the frame testing to see which moves you can di to get away from.

i'm also going to work on a list of characters who get grounded flame choked onto platforms above you, rather than the ground. the best example i can think of is lucas on ps2. he'll land on the platform if you catch him with grounded flame choke, letting you set up a much more limited options tech chase on him from there. or, even sicker, ness and lucas on the middle platform of warioware will always end up on the top platform, so you can literally just charge usmash and laugh at them.

Also to clarify, the wavebounce flame choke is only useful for the grounded version, the aerial wavebounce gives no additional distance or speed.