Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[Bazkip]

Was labbing with @Spralwers and we realized that the missed grabs weren't due to not jumping in enough, but...
http://imgur.com/a/LgRJH
God ****ing dammit

It can also sorta vertical whiff against Samus/Link, but if you're close enough it'll work.
http://imgur.com/a/41bYx

Ivy's landing animation won't dodge it.
You could also just dtilt, don't have to worry about that missing.

However, I was also able to look at the animation and still grab at the right time before he could buffer spotdodge, which means you've got hella time to do it, so I'm now completely certain it works. Just need to time everything properly.

 

[CORY]

Does dash grab work? Or is it just slow enough to allow escapes?

 

[Bazkip]

Does dash grab work? Or is it just slow enough to allow escapes?

Dash grab is fine for time, but not for space. You're probably just gonna go right past them.
I suppose pivot grab might work? Then you also open up the option of fthrow. Hm...

 

[Bazkip]

Idk if we knew about this before but the furthest grab box on pivot grab can actually grab the lowest crouches.
Boost pivot grab might actually have a use?
Though Flame Choke is almost certainly just a better choice. Doesn't require perfect spacing and is far less likely to get beaten out.

Edit: This is talking about Kirby/Jiggs/Snake etc. crouching btw

 

[Gingerham]

I was messing around with that and at high percents I find a good punish for forced tether landings to be waveland from the ledge to turnaround f tilt. I'm not sure if it's fast enough based off of doing it on reaction. Also yeah I never noticed how long Ganon's pivot grab was until just recently.

 

[Taytertot]

I was messing around with that and at high percents I find a good punish for forced tether landings to be waveland from the ledge to turnaround f tilt. I'm not sure if it's fast enough based off of doing it on reaction. Also yeah I never noticed how long Ganon's pivot grab was until just recently.

i feel like you should be able to do the waveland and decide to pivot ftilt or (insert ideal punish if they max drift towards the stage) on reaction. so the waveland isnt on reaction but the attack is.

 

[Bazkip]

i feel like you should be able to do the waveland and decide to pivot ftilt or (insert ideal punish if they max drift towards the stage) on reaction. so the waveland isnt on reaction but the attack is.

I'm almost certain you'd be giving up the ability to punish fade back if you waveland right away because you'll be too far. Unless you're talking about doing a short waveland from the ledge, which I guess is doable, but **** that messes with my ledgedash muscle memory lol.

 

[Taytertot]

I'm almost certain you'd be giving up the ability to punish fade back if you waveland right away because you'll be too far. Unless you're talking about doing a short waveland from the ledge, which I guess is doable, but **** that messes with my ledgedash muscle memory lol.

yeah i was thinking somewhere around a medium distance ledgedash so that youd be in range for all options. i agree though im used to trying to get the full distance but being able to use just as much distance as needed is i think a very valuable skill with wavedashing.

 

[CORY]

Forced tether hop animation is 50 frames long. When landing on stage they don't have to spend the whole animation airborne, but it's still some 30-40 frames depending on character, and then there's also 30 frames of landing lag. So yeah, there's time to react to their drift. On drift back, best option is ledgehop bair. On drift forwards you can do...pretty much anything. Best options are probably up angled fsmash if they're at kill percents, otherwise grab/dtilt/Flame Choke to start a combo.

What I spent some time labing was to see what options we have to cover all drift options, as that should allow for high consistency of punishing tethers due to only needing to react to the pull in. Of course there's the very obvious solution in uair, but that's a weak punish on drift in. What I came up with was ledgehop bair to cover the fade back, and then grabbing them if they drifted in (and then dthrow bair/uair/fair). The punish window is large enough that this can be done easily.
One of the problems with this is that the landing animations of Lucas, Toon Link and ZSS are low enough that Ganon's grab can miss if you grab at the wrong time. It can also whiff on Link/Samus if you're not quite close enough. Ivy's landing animation is very upright, so there's no worry there. While this is annoying, like I said the window to grab is very lenient, you don't need to grab right away. So you can simply wait past this point in their animation and then grab them. If you're really worried I supposed you could also dtilt.
Another problem is that dthrow is not particularly potent on Samus, the only aerial you're able to get past mid percents is uair, and that'll usually be the mid hit that won't send her particularly far, and then eventually we lose the ability to even land that. I think dthrow upB works until fairly late percents, so that's a pretty good option.

Other potential options for coverage that I haven't tested but should probably work out are a properly timed Flame Choke (possibly the best option against Samus, since AFC > Wiz Foot is a thing on her, or techase Wiz Foot if you get ground FC), or doing a short ledgedash then turnaround ftilt for fadeback or whatever you want for drift in.

is it possible to pivot (boost)grab as a tether punish option? like, do we have enough time for that?

because, dthrow isn't super ideal for some situations (namely, the opponent IS going to di in, towards center stage, so all you're going to get is a fair to launch them from one end of the stage to the other). if you can instead pivot grab, so that you're facing center stage as you do dthrow, even if they di towards center stage, the angle just doesn't allow them to move as far in from that point, letting you possibly dash-sh-bair and hitting them out the way they came from initially.

 

[Bazkip]

is it possible to pivot (boost)grab as a tether punish option? like, do we have enough time for that?

because, dthrow isn't super ideal for some situations (namely, the opponent IS going to di in, towards center stage, so all you're going to get is a fair to launch them from one end of the stage to the other). if you can instead pivot grab, so that you're facing center stage as you do dthrow, even if they di towards center stage, the angle just doesn't allow them to move as far in from that point, letting you possibly dash-sh-bair and hitting them out the way they came from initially.

...but you'll be facing centre stage when you do a normal grab? If you do a pivot grab you'll be facing offstage.

 

[CORY]

yeah. i guess i thought it through in my head funky? let me reread my post and then cry about calculus... or maybe in the other order

 

[Bazkip]

yeah. i guess i thought it through in my head funky? let me reread my post and then cry about calculus... or maybe in the other order

You're on the ledge, you drop off and double jump onto the stage. You'll be standing near the edge facing towards centre stage.

 

[Taytertot]

i think he meant that by pivot grabbing ganon would be facing away from center stage therefore having the opponent he grabbed closer to the edge (and unable to di behind ganon fast enough) after dthrow and then ganon could do a slight dash towards center stage and sh bair.

 

[Bazkip]

i think he meant that by pivot grabbing ganon would be facing away from center stage therefore having the opponent he grabbed closer to the edge (and unable to di behind ganon fast enough) after dthrow and then ganon could do a slight dash towards center stage and sh bair.

There's definitely enough time to react and DI properly for that, and our follow ups are worse for getting them back offstage with proper DI on dthrow facing ledge.

 

[CORY]

yeah, i think my brain was frazzled out when i typed that. what i probably thought of, originally, was perfect ledge dash into pivot grab, but that's adding a lot of extra steps and wouldn't really fit into an optimization where we're trying to break it down into the fewest necessary steps.

 

[Denjinpachi]

*Two Cents to original thread topic*
I think that Ganon's Max range tilts are really strong, and seem to be under utilized. Everyone always tries to go for those hard read stomps, or the side be tech chases all day. The tilts reach really far, and hit surprisingly hard. I like to use them when Im walking forward, and just as a quick way to catch an opponent trying to react with almost anything out of shield.

 

[Taytertot]

*Two Cents to original thread topic*
I think that Ganon's Max range tilts are really strong, and seem to be under utilized. Everyone always tries to go for those hard read stomps, or the side be tech chases all day. The tilts reach really far, and hit surprisingly hard. I like to use them when Im walking forward, and just as a quick way to catch an opponent trying to react with almost anything out of shield.

i agree im much more into a poke heavy ganon then read heavy. and i think using a mix of spaced/walling jab, ftilt, dtilt, fair, nair and bair is the best way to approach many mu's in neutral (jab is something i use mostly just to catch approaches if they get me in a bad position and i need a quick gtfo move). i like conditioning people to expect and respect either the ftilt or dtilt range and then catching them with the other one since each seem to reach just a tiny bit farther in different situations and against different characters.

 

[Bazkip]

Man I was kind of awkward here >_>

 

[Bazkip]

So I was dthrow chaingrabbing a Meta Knight across the stage when I got to the ledge before he was at up-angled fsmash kill percent, so I fair'd him. But then I thought, what if I hit him with a down-angled fsmash? It's stronger, and only sends 5° higher, so it should send them farther right?

Nope

Stay ****ing useless, fsmash

Though I think ftilt might actually be more useful in this scenario against the other fast fallers, since it'll send them lower. Against MK likely best to just fair cause he's got a good recovery (Fox does too, but he loses way more options when low)

 

[Zigludo]

Stay ****ing useless, fsmash

hey now, fsmash isn't totally worthless... if you chaingrab Sheik to max% on FD and then up-angled fsmash her, it's a guaranteed KO.

speaking of which, has that knockback been buffed from Melee? I would have thought that more people would be aware of a guaranteed chaingrab to death from center stage

 

[Bazkip]

hey now, fsmash isn't totally worthless... if you chaingrab Sheik to max% on FD and then up-angled fsmash her, it's a guaranteed KO.

before he was at up-angled fsmash kill percent

Why don't you think I don't know this lol

I'm talking about neutral/down angle

 

[Zigludo]

not saying you didn't know it - just that fsmash ain't worthless

 

[Bazkip]

not saying you didn't know it - just that fsmash ain't worthless

I'm talking about neutral/down angle

 

[Denjinpachi]

F-Smash, while a move that requires planning to use, isn't completely worthless in my honest opinion. If I could say anything about it, as far as a lot of moves in the game go, if you get a read or combo finish with a move that takes a lot of start up and hits like a truck, it takes a mental toll on the person you hit, and also kinda adds to what some sacramento locals refer to as the "feelin' yourself" meter. Kinda that build up in your own confidence in that moment. But I suppose that's situational, and also a mental aspect of the game. F-Smash admittedly is too much of a liability to just throw out though.

 

[Bazkip]

F-Smash, while a move that requires planning to use, isn't completely worthless in my honest opinion. If I could say anything about it, as far as a lot of moves in the game go, if you get a read or combo finish with a move that takes a lot of start up and hits like a truck, it takes a mental toll on the person you hit, and also kinda adds to what some sacramento locals refer to as the "feelin' yourself" meter. Kinda that build up in your own confidence in that moment. But I suppose that's situational, and also a mental aspect of the game. F-Smash admittedly is too much of a liability to just throw out though.

Really powerful hard read super committal move is like half of our moveset.

In the case of neutral/down angled fsmash, we have several other moves that are more potent kill options than those two, which makes them entirely useless. Up angled is the only one that there's actually any point to using, since it's our most powerful vertical finisher.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Really powerful hard read super committal move is like half of our moveset.

In the case of neutral/down angled fsmash, we have several other moves that are more potent kill options than those two, which makes them entirely useless. Up angled is the only one that there's actually any point to using, since it's our most powerful vertical finisher.

I can agree with that.

 

[Bazkip]

I mean technically with charge they're stronger but when do you get the opportunity to land that.

You do get a moment to charge a fsmash a bit when finishing off the cg but I highly doubt that's enough to make the difference for neutral/down angled.

 

[Denjinpachi]

more than likely not. So I guess just the angled variant is better for a more on-the-spot finish of a CG combo.

 

[Bazkip]

Something occurred to me the other day and I can't decide if it's a strength or weakness.

Our chaingrab and mobility are basically in direct opposition with each other. Platforms are essential to our ability to move around quickly, but they're also detrimental to the chaingrab. This means that the effectiveness of our most powerful punish tool is reduced on our best stages. Through this lens it appears as a major flaw in our gameplan.

However, you could also consider it as attribute that softens counterpicks. Yeah they took you to a long flat stage where you're pretty much a sitting duck, buuuuuut at least if you get a grab they're actually done for.
But those stage types are such a huge handicap on our ability to contest the opponent in neutral that I don't think it even begins to make up for it.

So I guess in the end it leans heavily towards being a significant weakness.

Though I suppose it works out for stages like Dreamland and Bowser's Castle, cause the platforms are high enough that they don't interfere with the chaingrab, but they're still usable for movement, and also the stage width is average.

 

[Denjinpachi]

If you look at it in that regard, its abit like the game has its own self-balancing tool for ganon's punishes. You can kill anyone on any stage, but it depends on your capability of movement, punishing, and adaptability. It's pretty cool, but if I were to put it like any way, it would be that ganon is a living meta game on each map. You can always maximize something with him, or take a different approach because of his sudden changes in mobility and damage output. Kinda cool. Nice input man.

 

[CheCray]

i just want a nair that lasts longer than my jumpsquat

 

[Zigludo]

I love the post about frame advantage on each character after aerial flame choke.

But, what about frame advantage after grounded flame choke? Is it the same value in every matchup? If so, how much is it? I can't test because I don't have a setup available

 

[CORY]

I love the post about frame advantage on each character after aerial flame choke.

But, what about frame advantage after grounded flame choke? Is it the same value in every matchup? If so, how much is it? I can't test because I don't have a setup available

i messed around a little with it while testing afc and it seemed to be the same. i think i did a normal melee, put a puff on 2nd player and did debug and did the same with fox and there wasn't a difference. i didn't test something like ddd vs puff/squirtle, though, since this just occurred to me and i was more concerned with afc.

 

[Zigludo]

well how many frames is it?

 

[CORY]

It was a long time ago and I didn't record it because it was so silar. Just debug it out next time you get to play. Start it up, gfc and hold shield and then make the other player input tech a few frames after they get released. You can see when you can act by the shield starting up, which lets you figure everything else out.

Do might affect it more now, though, since they had that grab release point adjustment.

 

[Zigludo]

I'm unable to test until Friday because I don't personally own a setup.

I'm not asking for values for every character - just asking, if Puff and Fox have the same value, what value is that exactly? - 2 or - 3 or something? I'm trying to think about what we can use as a guaranteed punish on missed tech, tech in place, tech away, etc

 

[CORY]

I don't have that info, I never recorded it.

 

[Bazkip]

Ganon is actually top tier

Not actually all that useful lol, but still pretty cool.

 

[CORY]

time for the rise of the dark lord

 

[Bazkip]

time for the rise of the dark lord

The rise and then lagless fall of the Dark Lord